Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."

[Wraith]

Genestealers: In short; Have lots or none. And by that I mean multiple Broods, not 20 in one Brood. You should never - ever - need more than 11 in one Brood.

One thing I'd like to hear your opinion on: Ymgarl vs. Vanilla Stealers?

I know the differences between the two (besides the Stat differences, that is) but I have an extremely hard time trying to find a reason as to why you'd take both, rather than one or the other.
Unless you're crazy and want 9 units of 'Stealers for a massive footslogging army, of course, which'd be amusing if not too likely to happen.

[Zain]

Right, to continue the tau in of questioning, does anyone have a link to a break down of the Tau units? Roles, over or under priced, etc.

[Squark]

Let's see...

Special Characters: Don't take. Ever. Actually hamper your army
Ethreals: See above.
Crisis Suits: Good
Broadsides: Good anti-tank
Hammerheads: Good anti-infantry
Fire Warriors: You have to take one squad. Don't take more. The sad thing is there one good point (Having an excellent basic infantry weapon) has been superseded by Necron Immortals and all Grey Knights (Grey Knights can move and shoot well, while Immortals get the same strength on their guns, and AP 4)
Kroot: Cheep. Use to bubble wrap important units, so you get one more turn of shooting. Shapers aren't worth it.
Vespids: Crap
Devilfish: Used to unlock Pathfinders. You can use it to transport your one squad of fire warriors.
Pathfinders: Decent source of Markerlights.

That's what I've gathered from listening, anyway.

Basically, there is only one Tau list anymore. Kroot used as Human Xenos shields for Crisis Suits, Hammerheads, and Broadsides. You deviate from this list at all, and your army will fail miserably against even semi-competitive players.

EDIT:

To clarify why Fire Warriors aren't good, here's a comparison to the troops of other shooty armies

Vanilla Marines Tactical Squad: Equal killing power with bolters because of BS4, and marginally better in assault. T4 and Power armor gives them better survivability
Space Wolves Grey Hunters Pack: Equal killing power with bolters because of
BS 4, and much better in assault. Also, T4 and Power Armor
Grey Knights Strike Squad: Better killing power with Storm bolters because it's assault weapon and they're BS 4, and they have force weapons. Plus, all marines have T4 and Power Armor
Necron Warriors: Equal killing power with Gauss flayers, and can harass heavy vehicles. T4 and Reanimation protocols enhances survivability. Are also better in assault than Tau, and being worse in assault than a Necron ranged unit is no small feat.
Necron Immortals: Better killing power with their Guass Blasters, which are also capable of harassing heavy vehicles. T4, Reanimation Protocols, and a 3+ makes them much more survivable. Also, they'll at least take 1-2 of their attackers with them in assault, while Fire Warriors may very well fail to do that.

[Renegade Paladin]

Let's see...

Special Characters: Don't take. Ever. Actually hamper your army
Ethreals: See above.
Crisis Suits: Good
Broadsides: Good anti-tank
Hammerheads: Good anti-infantry
Fire Warriors: You have to take one squad. Don't take more. The sad thing is there one good point (Having an excellent basic infantry weapon) has been superseded by Necron Immortals and all Grey Knights (Grey Knights can move and shoot well, while Immortals get the same strength on their guns, and AP 4)
Kroot: Cheep. Use to bubble wrap important units, so you get one more turn of shooting. Shapers aren't worth it.
Vespids: Crap
Devilfish: Used to unlock Pathfinders. You can use it to transport your one squad of fire warriors.
Pathfinders: Decent source of Markerlights.

That's what I've gathered from listening, anyway.

Basically, there is only one Tau list anymore. Kroot used as Human Xenos shields for Crisis Suits, Hammerheads, and Broadsides. You deviate from this list at all, and your army will fail miserably against even semi-competitive players.

EDIT:

To clarify why Fire Warriors aren't good, here's a comparison to the troops of other shooty armies

Vanilla Marines Tactical Squad: Equal killing power with bolters because of BS4, and marginally better in assault. T4 and Power armor gives them better survivability
Space Wolves Grey Hunters Pack: Equal killing power with bolters because of
BS 4, and much better in assault. Also, T4 and Power Armor
Grey Knights Strike Squad: Better killing power with Storm bolters because it's assault weapon and they're BS 4, and they have force weapons. Plus, all marines have T4 and Power Armor
Necron Warriors: Equal killing power with Gauss flayers, and can harass heavy vehicles. T4 and Reanimation protocols enhances survivability. Are also better in assault than Tau, and being worse in assault than a Necron ranged unit is no small feat.
Necron Immortals: Better killing power with their Guass Blasters, which are also capable of harassing heavy vehicles. T4, Reanimation Protocols, and a 3+ makes them much more survivable. Also, they'll at least take 1-2 of their attackers with them in assault, while Fire Warriors may very well fail to do that.

Don't forget Guardsmen: Outnumber you two to one on the points and pack heavy weapons enough in one troops choice to kill your fire warriors with just the lascannons if they feel like saving small arms ammo. And also beat you in assault.

[Tome]

Right, to continue the tau in of questioning, does anyone have a link to a break down of the Tau units? Roles, over or under priced, etc.

I wrote up my opinions on the various units in the Tau army just a couple of pages back, actually.

Also, Squark's summary is pretty much spot on as well.

[Zain]

So for a first tau list, how does this look?

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HQ Total points 1494
Commander Points 140
Shas'el
Plasma rifle Fusion Blaster, Shield Generator
Target lock, multi-tracker

Bodyguard x1 points 82
Plasma rifle Fusion Blaster, Shield Generator
Target lock, multi-tracker

Elites
Crisis Battle suit team (2) 261
Plasma rifle Fusion Blaster, Shield Generator
Target lock, multi-tracker

Troops
Fire Warrior Team (12) 250
Shas'ul with marker light and target lock
Devilfish with smart missile system, disruption pods

Fire Warrior Team (12) 250
Shas'ul with marker light and target lock
Devilfish with smart missile system

Fast Attack
Pathfinders Team (8) 196
Devilfish with smart missile system

Heavy Support
Hammerhead gunship 165
Rail Gun Smart missile systems, Disruption pod

Broadside Battlesuit team (2) 150
Target lock

[Timberwolf]

Please keep in mind with this that I am no Tau player, but I know what my target priorities would be and I reckon that with my normal 1500 points Blood Angel list I could probably pull the teeth from a lot of what you have there before you got to use most of it.

From what I've picked up, Fusion blasters on your nice, squishy Crisis Commander will make him nice and close for a multi melta to the face or someone running a Dreadnought / Daemon Prince / Super Fighty thing you don't want him anywhere near into him. This is bad, as I'm sure you've guessed.

Perhaps you could trade out the Hammerhead for a second Broadside team, more railguns is always good, especially when they're twin linked. You'll suffer against a horde army, but one large blast probably won't make all that much difference anyway.

I'm not sure what those Smart missiles on the Devilfish will do for you, but unless they're S8 or have a load of shots, keep the burst cannons. Use any points you've saved to add some kroot, if only as a delaying action / extra infantry killing fire. With 4 Broadsides, you'll be picking off armour before it can fire unless someone drops right next to you with a pod full of Sternguard or something equally horrible (Bloodstrike missiles from a gunship leap to mind, not that I'd know anything about that...). With your crisis teams hunting elite infantry with plasma and whatever else you install so you can keep them at range, you need infantry killing grunt just in case you run into a horde, hence the burst cannons and extra Kroot. Sure, Kroot shooting sucks, but it's better than nothing and you can then sacrifice them to slow stuff down.

Also, those Broadsides need an invulnerable save, Shield Generator or Shield Drones. The latter are good because you can assign that single instant death shot to them and they have a 3+ save, but once they're gone, they're gone.

[Squark]

So for a first tau list, how does this look?

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HQ Total points 1494
Commander Points 140
Shas'el
Plasma rifle Fusion Blaster, Shield Generator
Target lock, multi-tracker
No specific comments on the wargear since I've never touched the Tau Codex. You haven't overspent on your HQ, though, which is good.
Bodyguard x1 points 82
Plasma rifle Fusion Blaster, Shield Generator
Target lock, multi-tracker
More Crisis Suits are always good. A few shield drones might not be remiss, though.
Elites
Crisis Battle suit team (2) 261
Plasma rifle Fusion Blaster, Shield Generator
Target lock, multi-tracker
No idea if this is too expensive or not. 130 pts for a single T4 model with 2 wounds and a 3+ save seems like it's begging for a couple of krak rockets to instant death them.

Troops
Fire Warrior Team (12) 250
Shas'ul with marker light and target lock
Devilfish with smart missile system, disruption pods
Ditch the devilfish, and deploy them just outside the Pathfinder's devilfish, so they can jump in it first turn.
Fire Warrior Team (12) 250
Shas'ul with marker light and target lock
Devilfish with smart missile system
Replace these guys with kroot. Also, at 1500 points, you should have 4 troop choices, or more. So, at least 3 groups of Kroot.
Fast Attack
Pathfinders Team (8) 196
Devilfish with smart missile system
I leave it to the Tau players to clarify if you should go with minimum sized units here. Also, remember that a unit doesn't actually have to start in it's dedicated transport. With that in mind, leave these guys in cover, and let the fire warriors climb into the devilfish first turn.
Heavy Support
Hammerhead gunship 165
Rail Gun Smart missile systems, Disruption pod
Needs Kroot bubblewrap. Frankly, I'd replace it with more Broadsides here, simply in an attempt to introduce some redundancy. Also, This should be far away from the broadsides. Put them close together, and they're both going to die in the first turn to a single drop pod of suicide sternguard.

Broadside Battlesuit team (2) 150
Target lock
NEEDS some sort of Invul, whether in the form of shield drones or a shield generator. Without them, you're 1 turn of concentrated fire away from a pair of dead broadsides. Seriously, I'm pretty sure just about anything that drops into your DZ turn 1 in a Drop Pod will massacre this unit.

In general: Needs more human shields Kroot bubble wrap. Broadsides need some sort of invulnerable save.

[Tome]

So for a first tau list, how does this look?

Okay, let's see... Pretty bad, actually. You have too much spent on upgrades and wargear you don't need, and not enough on things that can actually kill things.

For your HQ and Crisis Teams, Shield Generators are bad. Why? Because Shield Drones are better for less points. Seriously, they are.

Fusion Blasters are for highly specialised suits when you know exactly what you're doing - if you don't, they end up having to get within 12" of the enemy to use their Fusion Blasters, and 12" is assault range. Being in assault range is bad. The default loadout is Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Multi-Tracker, sometimes referred to as a Fireknife configuration, I'd stick to that. Exception is for the Shas'El, who usually gets a Cyclic Ion Blaster, a Targeting Array, a Hard-Wired Multi-Tracker, Shield Drones and your choice of additional weapon, typically a Plasma Rifle. Some folks like to take an Airburst on a Bodyguard or Team Leader as well.

Your Crisis Team is illegal. You can only have three systems per suit, except on the Team Leader (if you upgrade one to that). You have five. Also, you've made them about 2-3 times more expensive than they should be for no increase in combat effectiveness. Take out the excess wargear and you'll probably have points for two teams instead of one.

You have far, far too many Fire Warriors. They're kind of bad. You have to take one unit but should never have more, and it should be a small unit to boot. Take the SMS off the Devilfish as well, spend those points on something with actual killing power. In fact, you don't even need a Devilfish at all, because they are hideously overpriced (Skimmers were a lot better in a previous edition, and Devilfish are costed appropriately). Have your one squad of Fire Warriors ride in the Pathfinders' Devilfish, spend all those points you just saved on a bunch of meat-shields Kroot.

Pathfinders are fine, just drop the SMS from the Devilfish. Bear in mind that with Heavy weapons and a transport with no firing points, Pathfinders have no use for a Devilfish whatsoever. Have the Fire Warriors borrow it instead.

Drop the SMS on the Hammerhead, use the points to get a Multi-Tracker. Being able to move 12" and still fire your big ol' gun is very useful.

Only need a Target Lock on one Broadside to split fire. Have the other take a Drone Controller and some Shield Drones.

EDIT Here's my Tau list for 1500. Note how everything is kept very cheap? You'll probably want less anti-horde mind-you, my meta is lousy with Orks.

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HQ
Shas'El Commander - 140 Points
Airbursting Fragmentation Projector, Cyclic Ion Blaster, Targetting Array
Hard-Wired Drone Controller, Hard-Wired Multi-Tracker, Stimulant Injector
+Shield Drones (x2)

ELITE
XV8 Crisis Team (x2) - 124 Points
Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Multi-Tracker

XV8 Crisis Team (x2) - 124 Points
Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Multi-Tracker

XV8 Crisis Team (x2) - 124 Points
Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Multi-Tracker

TROOPS
Fire Warrior Team (x6) - 60 Points

Kroot Carnivore Squad (x10) - 76 Points
+Kroot Hound x1

Kroot Carnivore Squad (x10) - 70 Points

FAST ATTACK
Pathfinder Team (x6) - 157
+Devilfish, Disruption Pod

HEAVY SUPPORT
XV88 Broadside Team (x3) - 285 Points
Advanced Stabilisation System
Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Hard-Wired Drone Controller, Hard-Wired Target Lock
+Shield Drones (x2)

Hammerhead Gunship - 165 Points
Railgun, Burst Cannons, Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker

Hammerhead Gunship - 165 Points
Railgun, Burst Cannons, Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker

TOTAL: 1500

[Zain]

I'm sorry, I should have marked that the target lock and multi-tracker as hard wired. And I just noticed that regular Crisis teams cannot take hard wired Equipment.

To update,

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Total points 1497
HQ
Commander Points 147
Shas'o, Cyclic Ion Blaster, Missile Pod,
Cyclic Ion Blaster, Missile Pod,
Hard-wired multi-tracker, Stimulant Injector
Shield Drones (2)

Bodyguards (1) Points 64
Twin Linked Burst Cannon, Missile Pod
Hard-wired multitracker

Elites
Crisis Team (2) Points 124
Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Multi-Tracker

Crisis Team (2) Points 124
Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Multi-Tracker

Crisis Team (2) Points 124
Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Multi-Tracker

Troops
Fire Warrior Team (12) 120

Kroot (12) 84

Kroot (12) 84

Fast Attack
Pathfinders (8) 181
Devilfish with Disruption Pods

Heavy Support

Broadside Battle Suit Team (3) 285
Team Leader, Hard Wired Drone controller, Bonding Knife
Hard Wired Target lock, Advanced Stabilization Systems
Shield Drones (2)

Hammerhead gunship 160
Railgun, Burst cannons, target lock, Multi-tracker, Disruption pods

[Cheesegear]

I know the differences between the two (besides the Stat differences, that is) but I have an extremely hard time trying to find a reason as to why you'd take both, rather than one or the other.

In most cases, you wouldn't. The difference between the two is that Outflanking Genestealers come from the edge of the board, wheras Ymgarls come from the middle. The reason you'd take both is for board coverage.

Right, to continue the tau in of questioning, does anyone have a link to a break down of the Tau units? Roles, over or under priced, etc.

Nothing on the scale that I do. Since I do those. And I have no immediate plans to do Tau (unless someone else wants to do it). There only is one Tau build and it's fairly straightforward. And yet I still see people taking Pathfinders instead of Piranhas. That seriously needs to stop. Pathfinders are not that good. If you really, really need Markerlights, use the points you save getting Piranhas for geting Marker Drones on your Suits, or on your Fire Warriors so they can actually do something when your opponent is in vehicles.

The only reason I did Tyranids is because they have several functional builds (and by that I don't mean 'good', Tyranids still can't deal with Mech regardless of your build) and no-one really seems to know how to do any of them (most of the meta is still under the impression that Termagants and Tervigons works) and I felt that now with their new models out (which is one of the main reasons people didn't play them) was a good time to sit some kids down and tell them how to play Tyranids properly.

[Hootman]

I know Orks are generally pretty bad at popping vehicles reliably, so I've been trying to come up with ways for them blow away those annoying transports so da boyz can get stuck in. This is where I'm at:

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1. Nobz (Kombi-Rokkits and Ammo Runts), Boyz (with Rokkits)
Not many chances for success due to a limited number of shots you can reasonably get off in most games. Boyz are cheap, but Choppa Boyz are meant to run and not shoot, so the Rokkits can only really go on Shoota Boyz (which are better in most cases anyways).

2. Tankbustas
They can't TAKE dedicated transports, but they're only going to be able to shoot at what you want reliably if they have one due to the Glory Hogs rule. On the other hand, toss a big squad of them in a Battlewagon and you'll even be scratching AV 13 and 14 with fair reliability. If they can get into assault, their Tankhammers and Tank Busta Bombs can REALLY ruin your opponent's day. Bomb Squigs can let them target different vehicles that are close by, according to the errata.

3. Lootaboys
The current go-to-choice for Ork players in terms of busting up tanks. With a little luck, they can put out BUCKETS of dakka, but they're somewhat limited by their Deffguns' Strength of 7. As long as you can avoid rolling 1's on your 1d3 shots every turn, Lootas are just what Da Dok ordered when it comes to popping light vehicles.

4. Warbuggies (TL Rokkits), Deffkoptas (TL Rokkits)
High-speed twin-linked rokkit-y death! Warbuggies are a bit cheaper and have AV 10 (Open-Topped), while the Deffkoptas aren't limited by terrain and are T4(5) with 2 wounds and a 4+ save. Both are easily blown away by Krak Missiles, but their speed allows them to take advantage of terrain or Turboboost (Koptas only) easily enough. Deffkoptas ALSO get Scout, Hit & Run, and the option to take Powerklaws, allowing them to zip in from Outflank and wreck someone or Turboboost on the first turn and be up in the enemy's grill immediately.

5. Killa Kanz (Grotzookas), Big Gunz (Lobbas)
Medium strength blast weapons (meaning they MIGHT hit what they're aimed at). Killakans get more shots per body, have an AV, and are mobile. Big Gunz are stationary, but the Lobba is Ordinance Barrage and can thus stay completely out of LoS and still bombard your foes. Against very light armor (or, failing that, hordes) these are some of the best weapons in the book. However, anything heavier than the Big Mek's favorite wrench is going to be immune to them on at least their Front Armor, if not all around.

6. Shokk Attack Gun, Big Gunz (Zzap Guns)
Welcome to orky-fun-times. These two types of gun are hilariously effective about 20% of the time, hilariously explosive maybe 15% of the time, and completely useless every other time. The SAG is a Mek upgrade that, unlike the SM Conversion Beamer, prevents the Mek from hopping on a warbike to get in some good Relentless face-stompin'. It also prevents you from using a Kustom Force Field, which is a big part of why most people don't use it, I suspect. Both weapons roll randomly for Strength each time they fire, can hit slightly more often than never (especially if you buy Ammo Runts), and are AP2. Zzap Gunz also auto-shake vehicles they glance or pen, so if you've managed to roll a high number for the Str on the turn you aim at vehicles, there's a good chance of doing multiple effects. Big Gunz are Artillery, which comes with a whole slew of special rules that make them hard to move and easy to break. Must ALWAYS be in cover, or they'll be destroyed when anyone looks at them funny.

7. Big Gunz (Kannons)
Basically, these are just Imperial Missile Launchers that have been swiped by Grots and are propped up in a wagon (range is 36" instead of 48", but that doesn't usually matter TOO much). More reliable than the Zzap Gun by far, the Kannon is also a direct-fire weapon and thus cannot hide behind walls like the Lobba can. They're the cheapest Big Gunz, so you can spend more of your points protecting them with extra crew and giving them Ammo Runts so they can hit what you're aiming at. They're still Artillery, though, so they need to be buried in cover (not a bad thing, really, it just might prevent you from getting clear shots on cluttered tables).



FINAL THOUGHTS
In order to bust up the Mech Is King playstyle, you're going to need as many of these types of units as you can swing. Personally, I'm considering the following setup:

ELITES
Tankbustas 10, 160pts
-2 Tankhammers, 2 Bomb Squigs

Lootas 7, 105pts

Lootas 7, 105pts

FAST ATTACK
Deffkoptas 2, 115pts
-TL Rokkits, 1 Buzzsaw

Deffkoptas 2, 115pts
-TL Rokkits, 1 Buzzsaw

HEAVY SUPPORT
Battlewagon, 115pts
-Red, Ram, Riggers, 2 Big Shootas. (This is for the Tankbustas)

Big Gunz 3, 75pts
-Kannons, 3 Ammo Runts, 2 Extra Crew

Big Gunz 3, 75pts
-Kannons, 3 Ammo Runts, 2 Extra Crew

TOTAL: 865 points spent on anti-tank units, out of any given 1500+ list

Fill the rest up with Boyz and either a KFF Mek or a big tough Warboss, and it should be good to go. Maybe spend some points on 40ish Grots to hold down your objectives. It's a really good thing Ork troops are cheap...

Any thoughts are welcome. I'm still working on getting some games together so I can test my assumptions.

[Badgercloak]

Getting ready for my weekly game against my friend who plays Necrons, any advice? He usually fields:
10x warriors
10x immortals
10x deathmarks
6-9x destroyers and destroyer lords
1x Overlord
1x Monolith
and a ton of scarabs

So far my SM's have been running into some bad luck so as of now we're 1w -2l. In the last two games I've used Orbital bombardment on turn one and hit four destroyers but unfortunately two get back up.

[Renegade Paladin]

First bit of advice: Stop paying the points for a chapter master and get something more useful and less expensive.

[Sila Prirode]

Are you playing annihilation, or you roll for mission? Because with just two troop choices you only have to take them out, and he can't win the game, only play to draw.

[lord_khaine]

10x warriors
10x immortals
10x deathmarks
6-9x destroyers and destroyer lords
1x Overlord
1x Monolith
and a ton of scarabs

Well, my first advice would be to get rid of the deathmarks and Monolith, and instead get another group of either warriors or Immortals.

The second would be to replace some or all of the destroyers with Wraiths.

And the third would be to get some cryptects for whatever spare points there are left.

[Wraith]

New topic, because this new leaked product contains two things, both of which I am very fond of. Coming soon to a RP Store near you...

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That's a rulebook for a 40k-themed remake of the Talisman game!

Older gamers among you will probably agree with me that this could be very, very interesting.

[Squark]

Getting ready for my weekly game against my friend who plays Necrons, any advice? He usually fields:
10x warriors
10x immortals
10x deathmarks
6-9x destroyers and destroyer lords
1x Overlord
1x Monolith
and a ton of scarabs

So far my SM's have been running into some bad luck so as of now we're 1w -2l. In the last two games I've used Orbital bombardment on turn one and hit four destroyers but unfortunately two get back up.

First off, it really helps if we have your list and the points bracket. That being said your friend has a good number of suboptimal choices

1) 2 troops. I NEVER run less than 3 troops after 750 points. Usually more. Like we've said, 2 out of 3 games will be decided by your troops, so don't skimp there!
2) Monolith. It's... a mobile piece of terrain that can teleport his units in. Just stay in cover, and you can forget it exists, offensively speaking.
3) Destroyers: Do you mean he has a mix of heavy destroyers and normal ones? Or is he randomly putting a destroyer lord (Remember, he can only have one) in a group of destroyers? Because that may be the worst use of a destroyer lord I can think of. Destroyer Lords run up and kill things with wraiths; They don't babysit units which are frankly suboptimal (My personal opinion on destroyers is that they are only there for ablative wounds on heavy destroyers, and they're expensive in that role. I'd prefer Tomb Blades)
4) Deathmarks: How is he getting them on the board? Necrons don't deep strike well at all, so getting Deathmarks in range of the unit they want to kill is tricky.

But we really need to see your list to know what to reccomend. But yeah, ditch the chapter master.

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, my first advice would be to get rid of the deathmarks and Monolith, and instead get another group of either warriors or Immortals.

The second would be to replace some or all of the destroyers with Wraiths.

And the third would be to get some cryptects for whatever spare points there are left.

The idea is to advise him on how to beat this list, not tell him how to tell his friend to improve it. Though beating a list composed like that shouldn't be anything remotely describable as difficult.

[Penguinizer]

To be fair. I've lost against tankspam in 750 doubles when we had 15 rocketlaunchers and 3 obliterators so easy isn't exactly right all the time.

[Renegade Paladin]

Depends on the tankspam. Properly executed armor tactics aren't easy to beat; Guard wins for a reason.

[Cheesegear]

Tyranids (cont.)

Once more into the breach! Except Tyranid Fast Attack is easy to review since they're basically all bad.

Fast Attack:

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Shrikes: Despite what Piccolo of Dragonball says; you actually can't and shouldn't trade power for speed. Like Xykon of The Order of the Stick says; The only power that matters, is power. Tyranid Shrikes gain Wings (a 12" move speed), and they lose a point of armour. Which now means your super-expensive multi-wound models now don't get a save against Bolters. This is bad. Shrikes still eat S8 to the face too.

But, wait, there's more; You pay extra points, you don't Score, you aren't Troops so don't apply for Hivemander Outflank, and you aren't Infantry so can't come in behind a Trygon (like you'd want to?), and did I mention that you're paying extra points for the same models that don't score?

So, what to do? Well, you're Jump Infantry, so that means you can Deep Strike. That's okay. If Shrikes didn't have to come in massive Broods (at least 6) and have the big bases for extra space to catch terrain/enemy models for mishaps. Just take Deathspitters.

Your other option is Hormagaunts and using them as Cover Saves (like Warriors do with Termagants). If your opponent is nice enough to allow your Fleet moves at the same time as your Move moves, then just make sure you keep your Shrikes behind your Gaunts (even if your Hormagaunts move 8" - and not 12" like your Wings can - you still don't go in front. You. Will. Die. To. Bolters.). If your opponent follows the rules and wants you to stall the game while you move once then move again, then it's a little trickier. But Gaunts should hopefully be moving ~11" a turn.

Biomorphs are the same as Warriors. In fact, take Warriors instead?

Raveners: Take Shrikes instead. Being Beasts is really, really bad, and you don't have Synapse and Shadow. End.

Sky-Slashers: Rippers with Wings. Take Hormagaunts instead.

Gargoyles: Kind of really good. Most Tyranid armies should have at least a unit of 10-16. They're huge models which means Cover Saves for everyone - even MCs. They're also not actually that bad in Assault either.

Harpies: It's T5, which is a bit crappy for a Monstrous Creature which means in can be Instant Death'd. Not easily, but it can.

Stranglethorn Cannon: Not if you have the option of...
Heavy Venom Cannon: A Harpy is 170 points. It's Twin-Linked too!

Cluster Spines/Stinger Salvo: Stinger Salvo has an AP. Think about it.

Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs: A Harpy doesn't want to be in Assault. It's got a Heavy Venom Cannon, it should be shooting it. Since you can move 12" a turn, you should be able to direct - with some degree of reliability - how and when you get into Assault - if at all.
Regeneration: Handy when you need it. Although if you have spare points at the end of your list, giving Regeneration to your Hive Tyrant and/or Troop-Tervigons should take priority. Better in every way than a Ripper base.

Harpies bring Heavy Venom Cannons to the table. Twin-Linked! The new Hive Tyrant box comes with a set of Wings which you aren't going to use when you make your HVC Hive Tyrant(s) and Swarmlord because you're using Tyrant Guard and/or a better Armour Save, right? So, yeah. You know what to do.

Spore Mines: If you're in the 'casual' meta-game, which is all Infantry, all the time. Maybe a few vehicles - maybe. Then Spore Mines often win the game before the game even starts. Drop 12 or so of them into your opponent's DZ before he even gets to deploy and they can't really put their models anywhere else they start blowing up. Good times. Also very handy for Infiltration denial as your opponent can't put his stuff within 12/18" of them. Sometimes you want to Infiltrate into your own DZ (it happens a fair bit, too), and having Spore Mines in their DZ means they can't even put their Infiltrators in their own DZ because there are enemy models within 18", and they can't put them in the middle because that's near your DZ and all of a sudden, Infiltrators have to Outflank or go in Reserve because they can't legally be put on the board if their owner declared them as Infiltrating because their Deployment Phase is over. So they have to Infiltrate...Off the board...lol.

[lord_khaine]

The idea is to advise him on how to beat this list, not tell him how to tell his friend to improve it. Though beating a list composed like that shouldn't be anything remotely describable as difficult.

Well, after seing the friends list i quickly desided he were the one who needet help...

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, after seing the friends list i quickly desided he were the one who needet help...

To paraphrase Obi-wan Kenobi, which is worse, the bad list, or the list that loses to it?

[Penguinizer]

Depends on the tankspam. Properly executed armor tactics aren't easy to beat; Guard wins for a reason.

They succeeded in 90% of their cover saves. Since it was dual objective (killpoint+capture and control) we lost on killpoints but tied on objectives.

[crazedloon]

Raveners: Take Shrikes instead. Being Beasts is really, really bad, and you don't have Synapse and Shadow. End.

Just a Note about this knee jerk reaction to Raveners (as I normally agree) with a tervigon (which lets be honest you will be taking) they become a rather viable and scary option.

at 40 pts a model they can take rending claws and devourers. When hit by Onslaught they are moving 6, fleeting (average of 3), shooting 3 shots each, than assaulting 12

They are netting 4 less attacks than a equivalent genstealers (i.e. 3 which are equal points) but they net a ranged threat, a longer threat range (anywhere from 18 with shooting to 24 which can have shooting with onslaught) and reroll 1s to hit

Are they a replacement for stealers? No for a couple of reasons but they are far from useless.

[Wraith]

No one interested in the revival of one of GW's oldest games? No? Oh well. Here's a long-promised battle report from last weekend instead.

Yet Another Game What I Played In - Champions vs. Champions

The proposed "Grey Knights versus Chaos Daemons" sadly never came about - my opponent had been unable to pick up the models he intended to buy in order to complete his list, so instead he substituted with his old friends and tweaked them to fit a similar theme: Chaos Space Marines, with extra Monstrous Creatures.

The Grey Knights:

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HQ: Grey Knight Librarian
+ 3x Servo-Skulls
+ The Shrouding
+ Might of Titan
+ Sanctuary

ELITE: Vindicare Assassin

TROOP: 9x Terminators
+ 1x Nemesis Warding Stave
+ 4x Force Halberds
+ 2x Daemonhammer
+ 2x Psycannon

TROOP: 10x Grey Knight Strike Squad
+ 1x Nemesis Warding Stave
+ 5x Nemesis Halberds
+ 1x Daemonhammer
+ 2x Incinerator (Riding inside the Land Raider)

TROOP: 10x Grey Knight Strike Squad
+ 1x Nemesis Warding Stave
+ 5x Nemesis Halberds
+ 1x Daemonhammer
+ 2x Psycannon

TROOP: 10x Grey Knight Strike Squad
+ 1x Nemesis Warding Stave
+ 5x Nemesis Halberds
+ 1x Daemonhammer
+ 2x Psycannon

FAST ATTACK: 5x Grey Knight Interceptor Squad
+ 1x Daemonhammer
+ 5x Personal Teleporters

HEAVY: 1x Land Raider

And the Chaos Space Marines:

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HQ: Daemon Prince
+ Wings
HQ: Daemon Prince
+ Doombolt, Mark of Tzeentch

"HQ": Summoned Greater Daemon

ELITE: 6x Possessed Marines
+ Mutation: Rending
ELITE: Chaos Dreadnought
+ Plasma Cannon
TROOP: 5x Plague Marines
+ 2x Plasma Guns
TROOP: 5x Plague Marines
+ 2x Plasma Guns
TROOP: 10x Chaos Marines
+ Chaos Rhino
+ Champion
+ 2x Meltaguns
+ Chaos Icon
TROOP: 10x Chaos Marines
+ Chaos Rhino
+ Champion
+ 2x Meltaguns
+ Chaos Icon
Troop: 8x Thousand Sons
+ Aspiring Sorcerer, Doombolt

HEAVY: 1x Obliterator
HEAVY: Defiler
+ Close Combat Weapons
HEAVY: Defiler
+ Close Combat Weapons

Both armies were made to 2000pts. It never ceases to amaze me as to how much stuff one can squeeze into a Chaos Marines army - either that, or I always play 'expensive' armies by some strange quirk of fate. Never the less.....

We rolled for Annihilation scenario and the Spearhead setup. I chose to start in the South-East corner, so that I had a big set of ruins and a large copse of trees to shelter in, and leaving my opponent with a much smaller copse and a nice tall hill to stand upon.

The Grey Knights took the first turn, and the Chaos Marines failed to Seize the Initiative.

Turn I.

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The squad of Grey Knights with Incinerators jumped into the Land Raider and headed west, leaving the cover of the trees and swapping it for being mostly obscured from the enemy by a large armoured tower in the middle of the table.
The Interceptors teleported north along the edge of the table, looking to reach the cover of some more ruins in the North-East cover before they got shot up.
The Terminators, accompanied by the Librarian, edged in the same direction, but keeping a watchful eye on the Grey Knight Strike Squad that was lurking beneath the Vindicare.

The Vindicare Assassin himself showed little in the way of imagination and infiltrated 2" just outside of his own deployment zone, right where my northern edge met the 12" DMZ in the centre of the table. While somewhat mundane, this put him atop the only three-story building on the table and thus had a commanding view of everything - including the nearest Defiler, who went up in a ball of flames with the opening shot of the game.

Not to be outdone, the entire Chaos force crept slowly forward - the biggest event being the Thousand Sons shooting down a pair of Interceptors at the extreme end of their range - with the exception of the Winged Prince and a Rhino full of Chaos Marines. The former made a blinding run of vengeance at the Vindicare Assassin, breaking the puny human in half and casting him down in a crumpled pile at the base of the ruins (which involves a certain amount of truth, as I subsequently spent the rest of the game forgetting that I had put him on the floor and treading all over him! He'll survive, but it ain't pretty....)

The Chaos Marines, meanwhile, turned their Meltaguns upon the Land Raider. In a surprising turn up that none-the-less started a trend that would last for the rest of the game, all they could do was to Stun it, which was quickly ignored in the next turn thanks to Fortitude. Who would have thought it would be so hard to kill an enormous, psychic tank?

Turn II.

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The Daemon Prince that killed the Vindicare felt pretty pleased with himself, but it was very short lived. From around the corner, a 10-strong unit of Grey Knights approached with determined expressions, and the Terminators loitered nearby in order to watch the show.....

Having been pummelled by the Thousand Sons, the Interceptors made it into the ruins and hid like scared children defended it while debating their next valiant move.

The Assault phase began messily, and ended with a dash of ultraviolence. The first squad jumped out of their slightly singed Land Raider and unleashed a frightening amount of firepower at the Chaos Marines - 8 Stormbolters and 2 Incinerators accounting for half of the squad, and the brutally short melee that followed finishing them off entirely.
Meanwhile, the Grey Knights got stuck into the Winged Daemon Prince. Already incensed by the death of their Agent, they were further bolstered by the nearby Librarian unleashing the Might of Titan. Having already been wounded by a Psycannon, the Prince took another wound from Halberds, managed to account for one casualty and was then ended by the incoming Daemonhammers.

Not that it was all going the Grey Knights' way - at this point, the other Rhino spun and lurched to a halt just to the north of the Land Raider, a shower of gore from within and the wretched stink of brimstone filled the air as the Greater Daemon tore it's way from the warp and readied itself for combat. The other Daemon Prince emerged from nearby ruins, ready to join it's foul brother in the next turn.

Similarly, the avenging Grey Knights near the middle of the table were spotted by the Chaos Dreadnought and the remaining Defiler. Both opened fire at extreme range, and a terrifyingly accurate scatter role reduced the Squad to a single bewildered Justicar!

Turn III.

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At this point, the Grey Knights realised that things are starting to go wrong, and began a course of evasive action. Kind of.

The Interceptors, pinned down in the ruins by the nearby Thousand Sons and their Obliterator buddy (they were just too far away to mount an assault, but not so far as to be out of range of those godawful AP3 Boltguns if they tried to flee) until the Justicar remembered that he still hadn't pressed his Big Red Button.
*BAMF!*
The Interceptors reappearred 30" away atop the armoured tower in the very centre of the table, from where they had a cover save, a commanding view of the entire Chaos army and range to shoot and/or assault most of it in the next turn. Tactics!

Meanwhile, the Terminators (with Librarian back in tow) advanced upon the Thousand Sons, shooting down three of them at long range while the Grey Knights to the left decided that whatever happened, they weren't going to be able to get away from the Greater Daemon and so took the only sensible option - they ran at it, screaming. Better to charge than be charged, and even if they couldn't kill it with a Force Weapon there was still the small chance they they could Daemonbane it. On Ld10. Yeah.

In the Chaos turn, the remaining Marines (the ones from which the Greater Daemon had erupted) jumped out of their Rhino and determindly put down the Land Raider with their two Meltaguns again managed to inflict absolutely no damage upon the Land Raider. HAHAHA!!!

Unsurprisingly, the Grey Knights didn't manage to kill the Greater Daemon, and he was quickly joined by the other Daemon Prince. The Emperor's Finest fought valiantly and managed to bring the larger of the two monsters down to two wounds, but they fared worse and by the end of the turn only a single Justicar remained, clutching his battered Warding Stave grimly and preparing to die like a Space Marine should; praising the Emperor and with his hands at His enemies' throats.

Turn IV.

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Incensed by the heroics of the Strike Squad, the Grey Knights began another fight back that turned the tide of the battle.

The third Grey Knight Strike Squad - who had spent the entire game loitering in some trees near to where the Land Raider began the game - leapt out of their hiding place and lunged at the Chaos Marines that had been irritating the Land Raider, who also spun around and trained it's Heavy Bolters upon the same target. When the smoke cleared and the Assault phase over, only 3 of the Traitor Marines remained and they broke. Running only 7", they managed to escape the pursuing Grey Knights but would be unable to rally next turn.

While this was going on, it turned out that the Obliterator - in his haste to score some kills, had edged slightly too close to the Grey Knight Terminators and in a blaze of Psycannons and extreme-range Storm Bolters he quickly evaporated.

Similarly, the Interceptors spied a nearby 5-man squad of Plague Marines and decided that they fancied their chances. Sadly, being only 3-strong, they only managed to kill one of them and had 1 man killed in return, locking them in a stalemate while another 5-man squad of Plague Marines ambled ever closer....

Finally for the Grey Knights, the valiant attempts of the lone Justicar to preserve the honour of his Squad were impressive, but vain. The two Daemons inflicted 6 wounds upon him, which he was required to save on 2+. Inevitably, despite what we have all learned about statistics, he failed just 1 of the 6 rolls on 6-sided dice and was reduced into a red smear on the landscape. But damn, did he make them work for it.

As the last Chaos turn rolled around, it was looking like a tight game - the Chaos forces would have to kill every Grey Knight on the board just to scrape a narrow win, and it didn't help when the Chaos Dreadnought went berserk and charged a massive 17" at the Grey Knight Terminators! +d3 attacks doesn't help much when you're looking at a bunch of s10 Daemonhammers coming the other way, let me tell you, so after that the Grey Knights would have to be annihilated for a default Chaos win.

They made a good go of it, too. The Greater Daemon went after the Land Raider, breaking it in half after several turns of hard effort from the Chaos army, while the Daemon Prince attacked the Strike Squad along with the Possessed Marines finally making it into position to join in. For all of their efforts, and despite taking a couple of Fearless wounds, the Grey Knights survived the melee (mostly thanks once again to the presence of a Warding Stave being amongst them).

Finally, just for fun rather than effect, the 5-man squad of Plague Marines ignored the ailing Interceptors and instead let the last Defiler have a chance at success. The Daemon-Machine sprinted through a large piles of ruins and ploughed into the back of the Grey Knights from a genuinely unexpected angle and ripped them apart before the Daemonhammer would be brought to bare. Ouch.

The Final Score:

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Chaos Space Marine Casualties:
Defiler, Daemon Prince #1, Obliterator, Rhino, First squad of Chaos Marines, Dreadnought, Second squad of Chaos Marines (broken)

Grey Knights Casualties:
Vindicare Assassin, Strike Squad #1, Interceptors, Land Raider

Grey Knights victory: 7 - 4

The Post-Match Analysis

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Nemesis Warding Staves rock. I mean, seriously, they're awesome.
On 3 occasions they either saved my squads from destruction or post-poned the inevitable by a couple of turns even against the combined might of two Monstrous Creatures. And in a normal melee against 'average' Troops - Chaos Marines, rather than Daemon Princes - they're almost a license for a flawless victory.

Interceptors have their uses, but I should have listened to my own advice from a previous army: Take lots, or none at all. 5 men, even Power Armour, are always just 1 unlucky turn away from death and I was lucky to hold onto them for as long as I did.

The Chaos army was just plain unlucky. Had they managed to kill one more Justicar before he was able to hide under the Vindicare's corpse for 3 turns, had the Meltaguns not managed to roll Snake Eyes twice in two turns against the Land Raider, had the Dreadnought not gone nuts and committed suicide-by-Terminators, a slight Chaos victory was a genuine probability.

Having said that, par for course from the Dreadnought, whose gaming history has always been one of slapstick comedy. If he's not running blind at the only squad on the table that can reliably one-shot him, he's shooting his own General in the back with a Plasma Cannon.....

The only thing I have to genuinely complain about, is that Grey Knights are actually pretty crap at killing Daemons. They're pretty much the only creatures in the game to whom Power Weapons are irrelevant, and the Daemonbane rule is amusing but.... Seriously? Praying that your enemy fails a single unmodified Ld10 roll per turn is your best hope? Good luck with that.

Turns out, the best thing that can kill Grey Knights, are other Grey Knights. And Chaos Marines ain't no Grey Knights.

We also had a rematch of Chaos Marines vs. Black Templars (Take and Hold, Dawn of War). For those of you in Team Evil, you'll be happy to know that it went almost entirely in reverse.
Chaos took an early lead, Black Templars made a break in the middle of the game but were ultimately reduced to a single confused Initiate and two broken Predators by the end of Turn 5.

[maglag]

TROOP: 9x Terminators
+ 1x Nemesis Warding Stave
+ 4x Force Halberds
+ 2x Daemonhammer
+ 2x Psycannon

Don't have the GK codex with me right now, but I'm pretty sure you would need ten termies for the second hammer and psycannon.

[Wraith]

Apologies, it's a typo. I copied the list from a file, though wrote it up slightly different for the game.

There were 10 Terminators + Librarian, offset with one hammer in each of the the Strike Squads for points limits, if I remember rightly.

[Ninjaman]

Well i was thinking about starting an Imperial guard army.
I was thinking what would be good to buy of as a start (i was looking through the archives to see if it said anything about this but i couldn't find it.
So what would be nice for a start? Money isn't that big a problem but i don't have infinite.