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2012-05-04, 05:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Well, if there were an Aristocrat Who Doesn't Care About Attacking But Wants Every Possible Bonus To Defense class I'd consider that a likely enough choice to put it on the list.
Originally Posted by The Giant
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2012-05-04, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Eh. We can still give reasonable priority to Core > Noncore > Homebrew when looking for (Ex): Fool magical lie detection abilities. I think Gift Jeraff is more wondering if there is ANY class that reasonably fits the bill than if there is a class that has been DEFINITIVELY pinned down as Kubota's prestige class.
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2012-05-04, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Agreed. I’m not convinced that Therkla is an actual Ninja, as far as her character class is concerned. Maybe she’s a ninja without having a class with the word “NINJA” in the title (the same way Miko is a samurai).
But I also agree with rgrekejin: without evidence, we shouldn’t assume non-core classes.
That raises lots of questions about Elan's accuracy. Is he a good enough source of information about his colleagues? Does he know about every companion's total XP? That's not likely. He is admitedly guessing ("I guess you were a little behind us").
The assertion that the whole party should be at the same level is hardly a fact – after all, we are having a colorful discussion about Roy-being-higher-level-than-the-party-at-the-time-of-his-death. So far, there is no consensus about it and your position shouldn't be taken as a fact.
…really? Now I'm confused. Are you talking about the panel 3 in the second page of #795? 'Cause there are important differences between panel 3 and panel 4:
- In the panel 4, Thog’s body and weapon are positioned (almost) vertically. Thog’s upper body is inclined backwards (away from Roy), and his axe is raised - the same happens in the panel above (first panel of this page).
- In the third panel (immediately before this sequence) Thog’s body and axe are leaned forward in Roy’s direction. Thog’s torso and weapon are positioned horizontally.
A little rotation goes a long way: most of the time, that's how we know that some one is attacking, dodging or running. By rotating Thog while keeping him exactly in the same position, the artist can show us that he haven't made his saving throw.
Talking is a free action. And we already know that The Giant does not shows every single action most of the time - so the previous sequence (Roy and Thog taking turns to attack each other) is not so different from others that we have already seem, and doesn't add anything new in this discussion.
Actually, he is. Thog is starting a grapple attack so he can throw Roy away - as shown in the next panel.
It resumes to this: I have presented plenty visual and textual elements showing shows 4 attacks in one single round in #795. I don't see how the strips you quoted have anything to do with this discussion.
I can not agree when you say your position has been legimately held. The images are drawn in a clear and efficient way - your single opinion, by itself, does not contradict this. The fact that you can't see the visual elements in the aforemetioned strip are not enough to call it ambiguous.Last edited by sgtpimenta; 2012-05-04 at 08:07 PM.
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2012-05-04, 08:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
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2012-05-04, 09:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Levels =/= XP.
Since that doesn't actually relate to what I said, I'll ignore it.
Hold Person is a special case that enforces a body position short of rotation, so does not have a meaningful relation to this scene. The rest is just a long way of saying "He was simply rotated from his previous attack, but I think that's more different than the change in posture from his previous block."
So what lends weight to your opinion that this panel is part of the following sequence rather than the preceding sequence?
No. Roy makes three unarmed attacks. The last panel could be considered as Thog taking his AoO in RESPONSE to Roy's attack, but it's still unambiguously Roy's punch. Left, right, left--*grab*.
You claim they're part of a sequence, then that being part of a sequence shows that they're part of the same round, without making the connection between what makes them part of a sequence and what makes them part of the same round. As I just noted, Roy's third unarmed attack is also the beginning of Thog's sequence, but that doesn't make it Thog's round. For my part, I see the panel in question as fitting better with the previous row, if we're making distinctions between "sequences" of some kind.
Since I've spent a good deal of time discussing said visual elements, your agreement or lack thereof would seem to be predicated on your wish to be right, rather than a coherent view of the discussion.Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-05-04 at 09:28 PM.
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2012-05-04, 10:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Not the current conservation I know but this bothering me
Do we necessarily know that Tsukiko is a cleric the comic nor Rich has stated it there's nothing the prerequisites in Mystic Theurge that excludes any other divine class so while cleric is most likely she still could be a Archvist, Favored Soul and even (hypothetically really unlikely though) a Druid, Ranger, Blackguard, Shugenda, or a Spirit Shaman. While most of these are ridiculously unlikely, the point it is never stated she's a cleric so it would probably be better to say Any Divine Spell-caster 3+
Sorry if this has been pointed out before but I felt the need to say itAvatar by Savannah
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2012-05-04, 11:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
I think comic 516, specifically the comment about Turning Paladins in First Edition, implies that Tsukiko has the Rebuke Undead ability. That's pretty strong evidence that Tsukiko's divine casting class is cleric.
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2012-05-04, 11:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
In addition, I believe it's been explicitly stated that she draws her divine magic from the Twelve Gods.
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2012-05-05, 06:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Some prestige classes get extraordinary abilities that boost their Bluff checks (thrall of Baalzebul, for example) but it's hard to think of any that gain total immunity to the effect of spells like Zone of Truth.
Since Zone of Truth is technically a Mind-Affecting spell, anything that grants Mind Blank as an extraordinary ability would qualify.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2012-05-05, 07:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
The best fit I can think of or find is the Spymaster class from Complete Adventurer. Taking levels in it gives you a certain number of cover identities, which become capable of fooling any and all divinations at the highest (7th) level of the class. Nothing says that one of your cover identities can't be "yourself, except not an evil mastermind," and the prerequisites consist entirely of ranks in Aristocrat class skills.
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2012-05-05, 10:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
To be fair, Tarquin's knowledge of "obscure" combat techniques has been lampshaded in the comic on several occasions. If any major character in OoTS is going to have Martial Adept levels, Tarquin is the most probable candidate.
But, again, there are simply too many alternatives in the "normal", non-ToB fighter mechanics that can be used as an explanation. Fling Enemy, Martial Throw, Defensive Throw...
If Tarquin has something similar to "powerful build" (a possible houserule for a human warrior with superhuman strength), then the elegant combination of Power Attack + Improved Bull Rush + Knockback + Dungeoncrasher is possible, which would explain the dwarf-tossing with 100% accuracy. And incidentally, with the addition of Shock Trooper and Combat Brute, would turn Tarquin into one of the most powerful melee builds.
The things from the Tome of Battle are rather clearly invented just for DnD, and would not be immediately clear to someone who wasn't familiar with that rather specific niche splatbook.
Personally, I would love to see Tarquin have adept levels. But not before the Fighter and other core melee classes have been completely wrought dry for combat capability.
In fact, from the powergaming perspective, ToB is actually not so great. It's widely assumed to be a "balancing" book so that melee classes can fare better against magic-users; but truth be told, "out of the box" ToB stuff is just not so powerful compared to some of the optimised core classes builds (with supplementary material, of course).
E.g. an ECL 14 Human Ranger 1 [non-spellcasting, Solitary Hunter]/Fighter 10 [Dungeoncrasher + Zhentarim Soldier]/Barbarian 1 [lion totem]/Cloistered Cleric 1 [Magic domain for Wand of Wraithstrike + Knowledge Devotion + Travel Devotion]/Ordained Champion 1 with an item of continuous Enlarge Person would likely be a much better melee warrior than Crusader 20, Warblade 20 or Swordsage 20.
Of course, the above-mentioned multiclass build would benefit greatly from 1-2 levels of Warblade/Swordsage.
So what I would really like to see from Tarquin's "OP" build is creative use of regular mechanics rather than just copypaste from ToB.
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2012-05-05, 11:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
I think that the quote about "obscure" combat techniques is kind of a weak justification for theories about Tarquin having martial adept levels, given that at the time it was said, it was referring to something (pun-dueling) which is clearly not something levels in a martial adept class are gonna help with. Now, I know that you're not really making the argument that "Tarquin said he knows obscure things, he MUST have martial adept levels, it all makes too much sense not to!", so I'm not going to pretend to have rebutted an argument that was never made, but, to me, the transition from "obscure combat techniques" to "martial adept" is too much of a reach without additional evidence.
Again, to be fair, mechanic-wise all things in D&D were invented for D&D.
Personally, I would love to see Tarquin have adept levels. But not before the Fighter and other core melee classes have been completely wrought dry for combat capability.Last edited by rgrekejin; 2012-05-05 at 11:27 AM.
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2012-05-05, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Yeah, but how is it related with the accuracity of Elan's assertion?
Are you saying that rotation of a character body is not meaningful? In that case, indulge me: how do you know that Thog is dodging in panel 1 (second page #795) and attacking in panel 3?
This sequence, being the climax of this strip, is more detailed. There is more talking and we see the character in a close. Hence, each separated attack is shown.
Isn't true that Thog's AoO would happen in during Roy's round? Is not possible that this may ended (prematurely) his full-attack?
My point remains: we have not seen any indications that the four attacks happens in different rounds. In those other sequences you mention, we can see both opponents acting.
You talk about predicaments and wishing to be right, and yet you are the only one in this thread that seems to believe Thog is attacking in panel 4. Are your opinions a "coherent view of the discussion"?Last edited by sgtpimenta; 2012-05-05 at 02:17 PM.
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2012-05-05, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
I got here and stopped caring what you say. We're the only two who have even expressed opinions about that panel, and others have disagreed with you regarding the assertion that Roy made a full-round attack of four attacks, and you're trying for argument by popularity? And you can't even be bothered to understand the position I'm arguing?
Nope. I'm done. Have fun with that.Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-05-05 at 04:07 PM.
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2012-05-05, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-05-05, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
At this point in the discussion (refering to the discussion between Math_Mage and sgtpimenta), is it appropriate to invoke the same procedure invoked for discussions of Xykon's level? To wit, given the intransigence of each side, is it appropriate to default to the minimum possible stat/level that will explain the scene, regardless of the strength of the arguments?
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2012-05-05, 10:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Okay, fair enough. But you haven't demonstrated a compelling reason why Eugene must either be being loose with the truth or lying, and this thread's policy is to take characters at their word when they're talking about levels and such things, unless they're obviously being insincere or don't know what they're talking about. Yes, Roy can be said to be "the leader of the Good side," but that does nothing to make Eugene's assertion that Roy was the highest level Good character on the field less plausible.
Do you still feel that Roy being level 14 at the time of his death doesn't fit with existing knowns?Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
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2012-05-05, 10:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-05-05, 10:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Last edited by sgtpimenta; 2012-05-05 at 10:31 PM.
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2012-05-05, 10:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-05-06, 01:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
You're going to have to wonder, sgt, because I'm ignoring your comments on that topic from this point out. It's not gonna be fun for us or the thread--it hasn't BEEN fun for a while.
My original position was that Roy could be either 13 or 14 at that point, based on correspondence with V's level. Since people have pointed out solo encounters for Roy since then, I'm comfortable with him being 14 at time of death.Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-05-06 at 01:28 AM.
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2012-05-06, 01:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Interestingly, either interpretation points to Roy being listed as level 13 now. If he was level 12 at the time of his resurrection, we could list him as level 13 now based on his having accrued enough XP to do so. If he was level 13 at the time of his resurrection (that is, level 14 at the time of his death), he would not have accrued enough XP to level to 14 based on the encounters we've seen.
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2012-05-06, 02:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Hmmmm, you're right. I'm too lazy and tired to do the math now (it's after 3am here and I'm about to go to bed), but if Roy started at halfway through level 13 and only received XP from the encounters that Zimmerwald heroically calculated out, a good guess indicates that he should be just short of level 14 right now. Mind you, I expect that he probably IS level 14 - most DMs would have given Roy XP for some of the other things he's done since getting resurrected - but we have absolutely no proof of this. So he's level 13+, and the first post should be changed accordingly. After Girard's Gate, this can probably be adjusted to 14+, but we'll sack and burn that bridge when we come to it.
I copied and pasted Zimmerwald's XP calculation below. Does someone want to redo the math for a level 13 Roy?
Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
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2012-05-06, 08:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
I think that the ninjas we've seen really do have the Ninja class, since if "ninja" just meant "rogue who happens to be really sneaky and have an oriental flavor", it wouldn't be necessary to specifically include ninjas in the creation of the world.
And there is one reference to Tome of Battle: In the 4e strips from Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tails (4th page, last panel), we have this
4e!Roy: Which makes me wonder... With our Intelligence score, shouldn't you be a warblade or something?
3e!Roy: You know as well as I do that Dad would never have paid for a Ph.D. program!Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2012-05-06, 09:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
I'm sure that's the best way you have to uphold your position. It's not like you don't have real arguments to prove your point, right?
Just don't tell me you have objectively better evidences. Objectivity is not something based in one single opinion. And if you can't tell between two different images, well... maybe we shouldn't have begun this discussion in the first place.
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2012-05-06, 10:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Don't forget to up Thog to 14 for a level 13 Roy. That could put it over the edge (though I doubt it).
I agree with Chronos about the ninjas. Dunno about having or not having ToB, but an optimized Fighter still fits better with T's apparent pile of feats. What was the last thought on the AoO throw?
Finally, some sense from the man! Were it not wedded to a snide attitude and yet more misinterpretation of preceding posts, we might find something we agree upon! Good day.Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-05-06 at 10:32 PM.
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2012-05-06, 11:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
I really wish I could accept zimmerwald's analysis on the matter. However, my position is that his assumptions are reasonable, but uncertain assumptions none the less. Therefore, while Roy is likely to be 13+, we only have conclusive evidence for him being 12+. It seems to me that he can't be far away from level 13 now, though.
Last edited by Gilphon; 2012-05-06 at 11:09 PM.
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2012-05-07, 12:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Correct me if I'm wrong if I did my math correctly than Miko has enough feats in order for her to be least level 21, (yeah I counted the Human bonus feat, and none of the feats we know she has are the Monk Bonus feats and Paladins have no bonus feats) Any other explanation for this. Because despite seeming strong being Epic level seems a bit of stretch.
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2012-05-07, 12:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
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2012-05-07, 01:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
This, basically. We could break it down in a hypothetical build progression if that helps explain it:
Level 1: Track, Power Attack (H), Stunning Fist (M), Improved Unarmed Strike (M)
Level 2: Unknown bonus feat (M)
Level 3: EWP: Katana
Level 6: Two Weapon Fighting
Level 9: Cleave
Level 12: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Level 15: Quick Draw
Does that make sense?"They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
- The Flying Kipper