To improve in macro, what you have to do is assign number-hotkeys on all your factories/warpgates/hatcheries/whateveritisyouhave, and use those in combination with hotkeys for ordering units. If you can order a bunch of zerglings by pressing 4sz5sz6sz7sz, or something like that, while in mid-battle, without having to go back to your base, you are far more likely to keep your macro intact. And always make sure you have enough unit production buildings; 3-4 per resource gathering spot is a good rule (maybe somewhat less for Zerg).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost
In general, I like to start out 8barracks/gateway/pool, simply because more resource = win. From there, however, I don't generally have a good build order.
Those aren't the build orders that secure you the most resources though. Contrariwise, those sound more like rush build orders, which severely weaken your economy in favour of an earlier attack, the exact opposite of 'more resource'.
A build order for 'more resource' would be something like
8 overlord/12 hatchery/14 pool
or
8 pylon/12 forge/14 nexus/cannon/cannon
Also, make sure you get enough workers; all expansions don't do you much good if you don't staff them properly. And inexperienced players pretty much always get far too few workers, usually by as much as a factor of 3 or so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost
Also, I see people talking about units that I almost never bother with, which I am beginning to think is a mistake. In particular, I never bother with Vultures. I see them as a waste of time and resources compared to an equal amount of marines, and save on the gas. Or, if vs Zerg, get some bats out to stave off the zergling swarms.
Vultures don't cost any gas.
That alone is already a fairly major selling point - most other units Terrans like to build have a very high gas-to-mins cost ratio if compared to units of other races, and Terrans usually having fewer expansions than other races always suffer far more from a lack of gas than a lack of minerals. Also, Vultures are cheap - for the price of merely three Marines, you can get two Vultures!
Vultures see the most use against Protoss, less so against Zerg (where the higher fire rate and anti-air capability of Marines makes those favourable), therefore most of the below applies primarily to TvP.
In addition to their cheap price and their lack of gas-cost, Vultures also make excellent scouts with their speed, or can try to rush into the enemy base and shoot workers.
The main reasons for Vultures, however - their mines are one of the best and most important weapons in a Terran's arsenal, suitable for a multitude of purposes - eradicating huge amounts of enemy troops, forcing opponents to withdraw by laying them right under their feet, scouting and blocking off enemy expansions (by laying them where the main building should go), containing an opponent by laying them at the exit of the base (forcing them to wait until they get detection or otherwise wasting valuable units to blow up the mines, or even putting them in midst of the enemy workers and luring some combat unit straight into them to blow the workers up by the dozen.
Also, Vultures have a tremendous amount of firepower against small units, and can hereby be used to screen the Siege Tanks from their worst enemy, Zealots. Vultures need only a few shots to kill a Zealot, who would otherwise just run below siege range and slaughter the tank. Marines don't have as much fire power against a single target, die quickly to Zealots themselves (as opposed to Vultures, which, with decent micro, can stop practically infinite amounts of Zealots), and die much too quickly against higher Protoss tech to be of any use (never use Marines against Protoss outside of the early game, or maybe a surprise drop - Reavers or Psi Storms will completely obliterate you!).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost
I try to not turtle, but at the same time, I'm probably not as aggressive as I can be. I do find that 2x Goliaths + 1x Tank (in siege mode) = very annoying harassment force.
If by 'harrassment force' you mean something to drop in the enemy base, aye, that would certainly be effective (though Vultures in place of the Goliaths would likely yield even better results (thanks to mines), and be cheaper).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost
I also tend to 'leapfrog defenses'. Which is to say, set up a couple of bunkers and a turret. Drop marines in said bunkers. Build more bunkers in another choke point up ahead, move marines to said bunkers while building turret. Rinse, wash, repeat, for as long as I've got choke points to play with. Move tank or two up and drop in siege mode behind most recent iteration of bunkers.
That's, actually, not all that different from common Terran tactics (in TvP, at least) - a huge amount of tanks, screened by vultures, slowly advancing as accompanying SCVs construct turrets to keep Dark Templar and observers off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost
Considering I do poorly on comp-stomp, I'm not nearly ready for PvP. Where would some good resources be for tips that even a newbie like myself can understand?
In addition to the ones mentioned before, I'd like to add that you can ask whatever you want to know in this thread, and we will gladly answer, if necessary in great detail.
Also, I think you could perfectly participate - we have more newbies for you to play against.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leper_Kahn
Speaking of the first post... I thought I'd just post to say my guide is pretty much finished Winter if you wouldn't mind adding it to the first post. <.<
Done.
(second post, though, that's where all the guides are)
Also added Yakkul's ICCup links to the first post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathslayer7
does anyone go on other then on saturdays?
because i'm usually on west most of the time, so if someone wants to play me, we can.
I tend to get on USEast sometimes during the week (usually about 2 or 3 PM EST), except for when I get on WarCraft instead. And as soon as I can overcome my laziness, I'm going to start playing on ICCup, too.
A couple of us use Xfire, that's an instant messenger program which recognizes and displays when one enters a game and what game it is in order to see when the others are playing.
Sounds good. We should try that sometime. Maybe those will not cause me to lag as badly as Skype.
I probably should get a new headset, then, my old one's kinda broken...
__________________
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
With what I've concluded so far, the best practice is to adopt one BO (battle order) for your race against each match-up, watch a lot of replays to get the idea on how to play, then practice your macro to the max. Seriously. I almost always die because my enemy comes knocking with a Super Special Awesome Stack of Doom that whips me. Which is why I stopped playing Protoss and StarCraft altogether because I always died right after Terran fielded his tanks to push me - not enough Zeal/Goons to do the job. (I'm making a comeback as a Zerg, though.)
For the BOs, those really don't give you a good economy. If you want good economy, then for Z it's possibly 12 hatch in the expo, Terran should go 8 supply/11 rax/14 refinery (or something along these lines), and Protoss 8 pylons with either 14 Nexus in the expo or maybe 1 gate tech (10 gate -> 12 cyber).
And Vultures ROCK. First off, especially since Fantasy's build kicked in, they are extremely efficient as harassers. Send those in a drop or rush them into a base, if successful, they will rumble through enemy peons. Against Zerg, mech build usually starts with fast Vultures to harass the Drones so the Zerg can't expand as smoothly. Then, especially in TvP, Vultures has mines which are the key to Terran victory. They are fast and they can recon. They can even kill enemy's forces by planting mines under them (which needs "a bit" of micro). Not to mention that mines are detectors. (but it works only for them) And how are you going to protect your Tanks against the Zealots without Vultures?
BTW: I say "liberum veto" for Skype or Teamspeak. You don't want to hear a Porean teenager over your mic, especially if his voice didn't mature. You. Just. Don't.
And it's official: THE SNOW ISN'T AMERICAN!
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(I worship the Sun, but I pray to Joe Pesci)
Which is why I stopped playing Protoss and StarCraft altogether because I always died right after Terran fielded his tanks to push me - not enough Zeal/Goons to do the job. (I'm making a comeback as a Zerg, though.)
So... because you had problems with Protoss macro, you switched to a race which is even more macro-intensive?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winthur
For the BOs, those really don't give you a good economy. If you want good economy, then for Z it's possibly 12 hatch in the expo, Terran should go 8 supply/11 rax/14 refinery (or something along these lines),
I think that's 10 rax (=barracks, to anyone not versed in SC jargon), 12 refinery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winthur
or maybe 1 gate tech (10 gate -> 12 cyber).
I'd go 10 gate, 12 assimilator, 14 core. I haven't heard of 10 gate, 12 core, but I don't think it would be all that useful due to severe lack of gas if one got the assimilator only after the core.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winthur
BTW: I say "liberum veto" for Skype or Teamspeak. You don't want to hear a Porean teenager over your mic, especially if his voice didn't mature. You. Just. Don't.
Eh, how bad could it be? It's not like half of us don't have accents anyway.
__________________
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
So... because you had problems with Protoss macro, you switched to a race which is even more macro-intensive?
Yeah, Zerg are more macro-intensive, but then again I at least don't die to the first attack that is commenced. (More like second, or third...) With Zerg, I can use Lings, Lurkers and Defilers (because usually I manage to hold my ground against Tanks & M&M when they attack. As a Protoss... what could possibly save me? Swarms of Zeals/Goons were never enough, I never could kill much of Terran Ball.) I just couldn't. I still don't know why. Not enough Zealots for Tanks? Splendidly bad decision of attacking with sole dragoons from the front? Anyway, this single issue made me drop this game months ago. I never learned how to cope with it. The truth on how simple it possibly is may be just horrifying.
Quote:
I think that's 10 rax (=barracks, to anyone not versed in SC jargon), 12 refinery.
Well I think it's 8 supply/11 rax/14 refinery. Then again, I'm not a Terran player. Then again, you aren't a Terran player as well.
Quote:
Eh, how bad could it be? It's not like half of us don't have accents anyway.
How about the fact that when I'm trying to say something in my native language, I often talk too fast for anyone to understand?
Quote:
I'd go 10 gate, 12 assimilator, 14 core. I haven't heard of 10 gate, 12 core, but I don't think it would be all that useful due to severe lack of gas if one got the assimilator only after the core.
Hmmm, you're a Protoss, so I'd say you are right. But I was writing this post quite hastily, so... But it always goes along the lines of 10 gate and cyber thereafter (with gas inbetween to get Goons).
Hm, fun stuff: have you ever trying replaying the campaigns after a lot of time spent on Battlenet? I managed to bunker rush the Protoss base in 9 Terran mission in SC and in BW I killed the Zerg base (in 3 mission BW) with Zealot + High Templar + Reaver. That's FOUR units. It was one hell of a fun.
__________________
Fan of George Carlin
(I worship the Sun, but I pray to Joe Pesci)
Yeah, Zerg are more macro-intensive, but then again I at least don't die to the first attack that is commenced. (More like second, or third...) With Zerg, I can use Lings, Lurkers and Defilers (because usually I manage to hold my ground against Tanks & M&M when they attack. As a Protoss... what could possibly save me? Swarms of Zeals/Goons were never enough, I never could kill much of Terran Ball.) I just couldn't. I still don't know why. Not enough Zealots for Tanks? Splendidly bad decision of attacking with sole dragoons from the front? Anyway, this single issue made me drop this game months ago. I never learned how to cope with it. The truth on how simple it possibly is may be just horrifying.
Probably too few expansions. As Protoss, one must try to get more expansions as the Terran, as with equal amounts of expansions one is likely to lose to the more cost-efficient Terran units. Fortunately, one usually has full map control early on, while the Terran techs up to his costly factory units, and can use that to expand. Also, PvT requires a certain amount of impudence - one has to be ready to expand, even though the expo will be hardly defended and there is a massive Terran front right in front of one's main. The trick is, if the Terran moves out to kill the expo, he will weaken the main army and allow a break-out, and if he doesn't you can try to out-macro him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winthur
Well I think it's 8 supply/11 rax/14 refinery. Then again, I'm not a Terran player. Then again, you aren't a Terran player as well.
I'm not, but I have played them often enough to know how much minerals one would accumulate at which point.
Besides, SCVs don't gather minerals that much more slowly than probes, and these buildings cost just as much as the Protoss equivalents, so that BO you wrote up would be akin to 8 pylon/11 gate/14 assimilator, which I can say with certainty is wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winthur
How about the fact that when I'm trying to say something in my native language, I often talk too fast for anyone to understand?
My father does that as well. Same language, too.
Nothing compared to a prof I once had at uni though. He managed to speak perfectly clearly, but faster than any human being I'd ever heard before - so fast, in fact, that while I could understand every single word he said, my brain was not capable of stringing these words into a sentence and grasping the meaning thereof anymore. And strangely, when he spoke English, he spoke even faster.
At any rate, what I'm trying to say is, I'm used to that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winthur
Hmmm, you're a Protoss, so I'd say you are right. But I was writing this post quite hastily, so... But it always goes along the lines of 10 gate and cyber thereafter (with gas inbetween to get Goons).
Pretty much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winthur
Hm, fun stuff: have you ever trying replaying the campaigns after a lot of time spent on Battlenet? I managed to bunker rush the Protoss base in 9 Terran mission in SC and in BW I killed the Zerg base (in 3 mission BW) with Zealot + High Templar + Reaver. That's FOUR units. It was one hell of a fun.
Y'know that Terran mission (I think it's the 3rd one) where one has to survive against a big Zerg base for 30 minutes until reinforcements arrive and is supposed to only bunker up in that base?
Yeah. I killed the Zerg base.
__________________
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
Y'know that Terran mission (I think it's the 3rd one) where one has to survive against a big Zerg base for 30 minutes until reinforcements arrive and is supposed to only bunker up in that base?
Yeah. I killed the Zerg base.
I'm always doing it this way when I'm replaying the campaigns. Also some fun campaign things and various AI flaws:
-it's IMO better to win the last Brood War mission by using a huge land army rather than huge fleet. Getting those 24 guardians and devourers to defend them is very costly, and it's really hard to win with White Terran (UED) fleet, and if you get attacked it's easier to fight it off with land units. I always get the southern expansion ASAP, make many sunkens & some militia (for Reavers and stuff), produce 12 Guardians and go kill Mengsk (Mengsk has almost no wraiths, and if you use Guards smart then Goliaths can't stand... a ghost of a chance! ). Then Artanis is preferred because otherwise he gets more special units. I max out my limit to 200/200 using Mengsk's lands and make an uber-drop, while upgrading units constantly. And then DuGalle, he sucks because several Battlecruisers and Wraiths can't kill Hydralisks, not to mention Valkyrie.
-it's also true for the eighth mission of Zerg BW. Get 48 hydras and 12 lings ASAP, kill the expansions on your island, make expos quickly AND sunken up (AI can be irritating with it's "reclaim" drops) and then either go full Conquest mode or just send all the ovies by the southern border of the map and drop all the units on the little platform nearby Overmind's island. Piece of cake with land units, and it's lovable to see the quintesence of what a ZERG is. :D
-the most well known trick: you can win the mission with "destroying the Heart of the Conclave" in Protoss SC Campaign by sending the Dark Templars you start with ASAP to the Protoss base, beeline to the Nexus and smash it.
-you can choose between fightning Nukes or Battlecruisers in Terran BW campaign. I found that AI has an "interesting" habit of nuking on lone turrets standing along that only serve as a sentry. So I started to put them intentionally on the way to my base to make my base safe from the threat of nukes. If they weren't smashed by any AI strike force, then the Ghost would unleash his mighty nuke on the stupid turret. What a digital dummy! (Then again, the Battlecruiser suicide squads that accomplish nothing are also quite common.)
-anyone noticed how often AI tends to send dropships filled with only several low-tier units, drop them and they die while accomplishing nothing (three marines or one tank should, if at all, try killing peons rather than buildings.)? AI can't drop because they will not try to attack the soft spot and if the dropships are attacked even by single turrets then they run away while dropping only 1 or 2 units who die easily... and sometimes they try to COME BACK, get hit... they lose dropships this way while accomplishing nothing.
-the way AI uses its lurkers is retarded. If units that it was supposed to attack run away, it will unburrow and run after them. It gets messy for the lurker soon after he gets fried by Gauss Rifles.
__________________
Fan of George Carlin
(I worship the Sun, but I pray to Joe Pesci)
On the subjects of Build orders, yea, 1-gate tech for Toss is 8 pylon/10 gate/12 assim/14 core. As for T build order, it's 9 supply/10-11rax/12 ref. The main difference between P and T is not mining speed, but the fact that an SCV has to stop mining to build, compared with a probe warping in. Since I'm not a T player myself either, I cannot say for sure how big the diff is, but I know you might want to delay you rax in order to get those few more mins and get a faster factory. In TvT I go 9 supply/11 rax/11 ref (late 11), while in TvP or TvZ I go with 11 rax. Anyway, those kind of differences are purely to maximize the speed or your build order
As for your PvT problems, I'm pretty sure that it's not purely a macro problem, but also from unit control/when to attack/strategy. Compared to PvZ (and to a lesser extent PvP), only a lot of units won't help you much in PvT if you don't know when/how to attack, nor if you don't know how to deal with early terran pushes. Also, on a larger scale, attacking a Terran can lead to very bad results if you don't set up flanks/time your attack correctly, etc. Since you said you were loosing to the very first few pushes, if you are not talking aboug games where the T turtles all game until maxed and push out, I'm pretty sure macro is not the main problem
Concerning replaying campaign, yea I did that like a year ago or so (maybe two?). I tried some stuff like completing all the missions in the shortest possible time (so crazy stuff can happen and you get 1-2 minutes missions O.o), and other things like killing all the Zerg bases in the last mission of P broodwar where you have to defend the temple for 15 minutes (this one was a bit harder, but that's a long time ago ><). I should continue my speed run, it was fun
And yea, like WW said, I recommend using XFire to know when people are online and playing. I rarely jsut log online to see if people are playing, but with XFire when I see someone is, I'll be following soon
By the way, I finally got up from my lazy ass and got onto ICCup as well. Account name is Winterdream.
Some /whois attempts reveal there is a Yakkul, LeperKahn, CynanMachae, Zakama, Murska, WarNiX and Glenstorm on ICCup - I take it all of those are you, and not people who stole your names?
I think those are all who use ICCup, right?
__________________
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
Add Ralvious and Winth to that list. On top of my head I can't remember who else I saw there. Me, Yak and War also have alternates, but that's the account we log on with most often I'd say.
Winterdream, eh? Where did the wind go?
Anyway, I'm leaving soon, and I'll log in probably when I get back home (in an hour I'd say)
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
Wished you a happy birthday before on ICCup, but there's no reason to not do so again. Happy birthday, Zak, may all your wishes come true!
__________________
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
WarNiX just linked me to this game - I don't know how many of you might have seen it already, or even linked to it just a few posts ago and I missed it, but that video is so awesomely awesome, it would have been a crime for me not to link to it. Seriously, watch it, it's one of the most hilarious StarCraft matches I've ever seen.
__________________
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
WarNiX just linked me to this game - I don't know how many of you might have seen it already, or even linked to it just a few posts ago and I missed it, but that video is so awesomely awesome, it would have been a crime for me not to link to it. Seriously, watch it, it's one of the most hilarious StarCraft matches I've ever seen.
Thoughts on that game...
Spoiler
Did he really use that many SCVs in the rush? It seemed to me like he could have starting teching and crushed the toss with a tank, unless of course he had no SCVs...
Thanks for the Happy Birthdays, guys
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Avatar by Balford. Props dude.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterwind
Ooooh, Zak is back!
Spoiler
Death Knight by Threeshades, Werewolf Knight by boomwolf
I can now see why vultures are okay, but the real reason why I send Goliaths with Tanks is vs air. Vultures + Tanks are good vs anything on the ground, but against any air assault, they cannot do anything. This is why the goliaths.
Generally, I try to drop them off on a ledge just inside Siege Cannon range to bombard them. Then, when they try to shuttle over something nasty, the goliaths tear the shuttle to shreds. Menawhile, I've got their attention firmly fixed wherever I'm harassing them, while I'm expanding in the other direction to be able to flank their main base.
Also, why are mines worth anything at all? They do little damage against anyone with half a brain, I can't see how they are ANY useful vs zerg, as the Overlords can spot 'em. And any 'Toss who doesn't scout attack lanes with Observers deserve to have their troops mangled. Terrans are least vulnerable, thanks to ComSat.
This build basically rushes bats vs zerg, or rushes U238 upgrades for bunkered marines vs toss. From there, make a beeline to Factory (upgrading to build tanks as soon as it is made), then Starport x 4, Science + BC, and proceed to build a fleet of at least 4 BC's ASAP, eventually getting 12 BC's for final blow.
Zerg:
8Overlord
8Pool
12overlord, evolution chamber
15 Hatchery x 3 (all three drones just made)
15 extractor
15 Overlord x 3
In brief, this is my Zergling Swarm mode. This is designed to be able to toss zergling squads of 12 at people quick. Heck, even tossing the original six at someone can be worth it, as you can likely catch them before they finish building barracks/gateway, and start tearing up their supply chain. This can cripple an opponent enough to get a leg up on them, and get two groups of Zerglings into their base before they can fully recover and complete elimination. If this attack is repelled harshly, then proceed to more severe means, otherwise by the time the attack is fended off, I've got another two groups of 12 zerglings, hopefully with Claw Attack 1 upgraded, and Zergling Movement. Continue upgrading claw attacks and hive and tossing more zerglings at him as soon as you get 2 groups made until he falls over. The key is keeping him from getting any more resources, and prevent him from getting the gas necessary to tech up or are able to take on zerglings en masse.
If early rushes are harshly fended off (I gave them enough time to defend themselves), start teching up to Mutas, keeping 3+ zergling groups in base for mobile defenses, spreading out to expand quickly. Final attack will be zerglings backed up by Guardians. Maybe an Ulty in front to be a damage soak.
Early defensive to protect vs early rush. Send probs out to resources when located, first drop pylon, then cannon, THEN Nexus, so it has defense. Get 4x Stargates, Fleet Beacon, then go Carrier Swarm.
Terran: Don't go BC's vs Protoss or Zerg. The only time you can use BCs is really late game TvT. While you're teching, your 2 bunkers will get steamrolled by goons/lurker-ling, or you'll get your SCVs hit by mutas while your marines are sitting in a bunker. In a TvP, you don't really want to make more then 5-6 marines. You should be making Factory units ASAP.
Zerg: Where are you getting the money and larva for 3 Hatcheries, 3 Overlords, and an extractor at 15 supply? Typo, or Zerg min hax ftw?
Protoss: Good luck making an Armory as toss. Assuming you mean Forge, this is the only BO that seems viable; though you should get the Nexus started before the cannons.
__________________
Avatar by Balford. Props dude.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterwind
Ooooh, Zak is back!
Spoiler
Death Knight by Threeshades, Werewolf Knight by boomwolf
WarNiX just linked me to this game - I don't know how many of you might have seen it already, or even linked to it just a few posts ago and I missed it, but that video is so awesomely awesome, it would have been a crime for me not to link to it. Seriously, watch it, it's one of the most hilarious StarCraft matches I've ever seen.
Oh my god. That game is hilarious! That is the most epic Murska'd goon EVER!
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When you're in the bottom of a deep, rocky pit, and you think you can't get any lower, god hands you a shovel.
Also, why are mines worth anything at all? They do little damage against anyone with half a brain, I can't see how they are ANY useful vs zerg, as the Overlords can spot 'em.
Okay, I'll try to give some input and advice about your BOs and general strategy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost
I can now see why vultures are okay, but the real reason why I send Goliaths with Tanks is vs air. Vultures + Tanks are good vs anything on the ground, but against any air assault, they cannot do anything. This is why the goliaths.
Generally, I try to drop them off on a ledge just inside Siege Cannon range to bombard them. Then, when they try to shuttle over something nasty, the goliaths tear the shuttle to shreds. Menawhile, I've got their attention firmly fixed wherever I'm harassing them, while I'm expanding in the other direction to be able to flank their main base.
Yes, Goliaths are a must if your opponent is going air. But generally you want to stick with vultures UNTIL your opponent switch to air, because vultures are much more effective (cost-wise and damage-wise) vs ground, harass pretty damn well, and they have mines. With ComSat, terran shouldn't have any trouble scouting an opponent going air (carriers in TvP mostly). Learn to relies more on Turret early on against observers and shuttles, and for detection. You might want a few goliaths (4-5) if hes making any shuttles and you don't want to slow push all the map with turrets tho. But relies more on vultures. You adapt to what your opponent is doing. Let's say in TvP, Protoss will mostly be doing goons and zealots. If hes more heavy on zealots, you want to have more vultures. If he's more relying on dragoons, get more tanks. Tanks>Goons, Goons>>Vultures, Vultures>>Zealots, Zealots>Tanks. Tanks on ledges are good yea, but that is quite map dependant, and relies on protoss not scouting it. Do it if you can, but you won'T be able to do it each game
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost
Also, why are mines worth anything at all? They do little damage against anyone with half a brain, I can't see how they are ANY useful vs zerg, as the Overlords can spot 'em. And any 'Toss who doesn't scout attack lanes with Observers deserve to have their troops mangled. Terrans are least vulnerable, thanks to ComSat.
Yea, mines loose some effectiveness vs Z once the Z get overlord speed, but they arent useless. Anyway, most T aren't going Mech vs Z (well, not that often, changed a bit recently ). Mines get most of there use in TvP (where they ARE a must), and in TvT (pretty good early, but you can also skip them altogether and relies on Tanks/Goliaths). The goal of the mine ability is not planting them randomly on the map (will you still can do that) waiting for your opponent to run into them and kill his units (while that can happen, Protoss can't have observers everywhere and micro all his armies against mines, don't rely on it). Actually, the mines have multi-purposes, here are a few:
Planthing them at likely expansion spots for the Protoss: can sometime delay the Nexus, can also warn you when Protoss want to expand
Containing the Protoss and restricting his movement on the map until he get observers (early game)
Plant them near the back of your mineral line and at likely drops stop: can stop reaver drops and DTs drops
Planting them randomly on the map: scouts the movements of your opponent, can get some kills also
Plant a minefield in front of your tank/vulture army; serves as a multi-purpose protection: goons have to push through the minefield before getting to your tanks (you're delaying them) and prevents zealtos from jsut running in without suffering huge casualities
Plant them near minerals lines or near gateway exits while harassing with vultures: can get your extra kills and are pretty dangerous for the opponent's movements near his workers
This build basically rushes bats vs zerg, or rushes U238 upgrades for bunkered marines vs toss. From there, make a beeline to Factory (upgrading to build tanks as soon as it is made), then Starport x 4, Science + BC, and proceed to build a fleet of at least 4 BC's ASAP, eventually getting 12 BC's for final blow.
While going to academy first in TvZ in pretty good and standard, marines aren't as effective vs Toss (where you want to go mech). Also, 2 bunkers is way too much (you might want on if you are expandly quickly, but not always necessary). While yea you are pretty well defended, you are investing a lot of ressources on defence/turtling before even comitting to your build, which will let your opponent take map control, mass expo, and then run you over. Also, rushing to BCs is pretty long, and BCs aren't really good (except in TvT when you have to money to afford them). Firebats are good vs Zerg, jsut don't make too many (2-3 is enough in a small m&m army). They aren't very effective vs lurkers or mutalisks Also, 4 staports producing BCs is quite expensive. You HAVE to expand somewhere, which you will find quite hard to do while teching to BCs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost
Zerg:
8Overlord
8Pool
12overlord, evolution chamber
15 Hatchery x 3 (all three drones just made)
15 extractor
15 Overlord x 3
In brief, this is my Zergling Swarm mode. This is designed to be able to toss zergling squads of 12 at people quick. Heck, even tossing the original six at someone can be worth it, as you can likely catch them before they finish building barracks/gateway, and start tearing up their supply chain. This can cripple an opponent enough to get a leg up on them, and get two groups of Zerglings into their base before they can fully recover and complete elimination. If this attack is repelled harshly, then proceed to more severe means, otherwise by the time the attack is fended off, I've got another two groups of 12 zerglings, hopefully with Claw Attack 1 upgraded, and Zergling Movement. Continue upgrading claw attacks and hive and tossing more zerglings at him as soon as you get 2 groups made until he falls over. The key is keeping him from getting any more resources, and prevent him from getting the gas necessary to tech up or are able to take on zerglings en masse.
If early rushes are harshly fended off (I gave them enough time to defend themselves), start teching up to Mutas, keeping 3+ zergling groups in base for mobile defenses, spreading out to expand quickly. Final attack will be zerglings backed up by Guardians. Maybe an Ulty in front to be a damage soak.
First of all, you should optimize the early part of your build with 9 overlord 9 pool (it's just better in all aspects, trust me ). Well, I can't say much about the part with hatch x3 and overlord x3, cause well... if you wait for that much money before doing anything else, you are dead lol. Zerglings are effective yes, but you cannot hope to win the game always with only lings if you're playing agaisnt someone who knows how to play
Early defensive to protect vs early rush. Send probs out to resources when located, first drop pylon, then cannon, THEN Nexus, so it has defense. Get 4x Stargates, Fleet Beacon, then go Carrier Swarm.
This BO can do okay vs Zerg I guess, but you are gonna get scewed by tanks in PvT and are going to get outexpoed in PvP and you'll get a huge army or reavers + goons at your expo soon. Your build has the same basic idea of FEing vs Zerg, but you can make that first pylon + forge (yea forge, not armory lol) at your natural expansion. But yea, executing it correctly is not that simple. To start out you should stick with double gate builds in all matchups, like those Yak (PePe_QuiCoSe) talked about earlier. And yea, rushing Carriers isn't as good as it looks. Yes carriers are strong, but when scouted you will be defenless for a long time. You opponent will either crush you or mass expo and THEN crush you (a bit safer )
Okay, that's a lot of writing, enough . If it feels like I'm only critizising your builds and am being hard, don't take it personal. This is advice, and I'm trying to help . Years of experience and game evolution proved that those kind or builds cannot work at higher than low level. Watch some replays or commented match (harder to analyse the builds tho) to get a hang of what to do in some matchups.
Terran: Don't go BC's vs Protoss or Zerg. The only time you can use BCs is really late game TvT. While you're teching, your 2 bunkers will get steamrolled by goons/lurker-ling, or you'll get your SCVs hit by mutas while your marines are sitting in a bunker. In a TvP, you don't really want to make more then 5-6 marines. You should be making Factory units ASAP.
Okay, I can see BC vs zerg isn't too effective, since they can scourge swarm them without valkeries to protect them, which cost too much to be generally effective otherwise. However, they are insane vs toss. If nothing else, they can blow up pylons quick to shut down a whole base which you can then disassemble at your leisure. By the time they get their guys up to respond, either you can completely obliterate anything they throw at you, or it takes them so long that you still end out ahead on the resource war, and I've got BC's being built to take their place by 4x at a time. However, you need to have a VERY heavy supply stream to be able to support it, and a canny 'toss can zealot rush you down quickly.
If anything, it's worst vs terran, because Ghost Lockdown.
So maybe Tank/Vulture or Tank/Goliath for mid/late game depending on opponent air force?
Quote:
Zerg: Where are you getting the money and larva for 3 Hatcheries, 3 Overlords, and an extractor at 15 supply? Typo, or Zerg min hax ftw?
Once your first batch of 6 (maybe12) lings come out, start putting down hatcheries ASAP, holding back on lings until they get down. This is where my biggest problem with zerg comes, because I want the extra build power early, but at the same time, I will often have to hold off building more drones to get them out quick. Extractor comes out after 3x hatcheries go down with the next batch of 3x drones from the primary hatchery
I think I'm trying to emulate this or this zergling rush. Granted, the rush was greatly helped by poor BO on 'Toss part in the first movie, but still. I'm much better at Micro than Macro, and this minimizes my weak points by making Macro almost pointless with an early rush before midgame. Crackling/Defiler is one of my favorite endgame builds, particularly backed up by Guardians. Failing that, particularly if land routes are scarce, Muta/Guardian is another one I use.
Quote:
Protoss: Good luck making an Armory as toss. Assuming you mean Forge, this is the only BO that seems viable; though you should get the Nexus started before the cannons.
So pylon/nexus/cannons? I'm just worried about vulnerability until cannons come out. Then again, I don't have to wait for Pylon to finish before I put down Nexus. Good idea. Any other tips for early Carrier Swarm?
Early defensive to protect vs early rush. Send probs out to resources when located, first drop pylon, then cannon, THEN Nexus, so it has defense. Get 4x Stargates, Fleet Beacon, then go Carrier Swarm
I hope you have units other than carriers, though...
zerg: scourges. They're not called "carrier killers" for nothing
Terran: ghosts + lockdown + goliaths = doom
Protoss: Dark archons to mind control (heh. I've had SO much fun with that against CPUs...)
And as for vultures vs zerg...
when was the last time you tried to ling rush a terran with a mined choke?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murska
Roses are red,
Violets are blue.
Your zerglings are slow
and your hatch goes kaboom.
I hope you have units other than carriers, though...
zerg: scourges. They're not called "carrier killers" for nothing
Terran: ghosts + lockdown + goliaths = doom
Protoss: Dark archons to mind control (heh. I've had SO much fun with that against CPUs...)
Yea, that is the big problem I run into.
Quote:
And as for vultures vs zerg...
when was the last time you tried to ling rush a terran with a mined choke?
Generally I rush before they can get a factory down, and keep them so occupied they can't get one down. And generally, bunkers are a much bigger problem than vultures are. If they can cover their supply with bunker, I switch tactics to late-game crackling + Defiler strat.
Okay, I can see BC vs zerg isn't too effective, since they can scourge swarm them without valkeries to protect them, which cost too much to be generally effective otherwise. However, they are insane vs toss. If nothing else, they can blow up pylons quick to shut down a whole base which you can then disassemble at your leisure. By the time they get their guys up to respond, either you can completely obliterate anything they throw at you, or it takes them so long that you still end out ahead on the resource war, and I've got BC's being built to take their place by 4x at a time. However, you need to have a VERY heavy supply stream to be able to support it, and a canny 'toss can zealot rush you down quickly.
If anything, it's worst vs terran, because Ghost Lockdown.
The first problem of BCs is, any player of meaningful skill, be it Toss or Zerg, will kill you long before they are done. You weaken your main army much too much while they are being built.
Next, BCs suck badly against Protoss. A good Protoss will, when you have a meaningful amount of BattleCruisers, not only about three or four full control groups of dragoons, he will also have High Templar which will eradicate your BCs with their storms. Or, if he's feeling fancy, he will stasis all of them with a single arbiter. I won't even begin to describe what a Zerg's plague is going to do.
Seriously, BCs in a matchup other than TvT lategame are a deathwish. They are one of the least used units in the game, and for a good reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost
So maybe Tank/Vulture or Tank/Goliath for mid/late game depending on opponent air force?
The thing is, the opponent is going to have an air force only later. Very much later*1. And only if you allow him to. Until then, Goliaths are just pointless. (Except against Terrans, under some circumstances).
*1 Except for Zerg, who tend to get Mutalisk swarms early. But here Marines&Medics are far more versatile and useful than Goliaths, so 'no' to Goliaths again.
However, and that's the main problem with all of your build orders up there - you cannot decide to play X only because you play race Y. The units you have to use vary depending on the match-up. Going Mech (=factory units only) against a Zerg is, more often than not, a very poor idea, you need Marines&Medics for that, with Tank support. On the other hand, against Protoss, M&Ms are practically worthless beyond the very early stages of the game, you need Vultures and Tanks for that.
Same goes with any race and any match-up. You can't just decide to play X without regard for the opponent's race. And even that's still not the full truth - because, no matter what match-up, you still need to adjust to whatever the opponent is doing.
Also, all of your build-orders are way, way too defensive. A good player will outexpand you, and never allow you to leave your base; only short time thereafter, a massive wave of units will roll over your base.
Remember, units are under almost all circumstances preferable to static defenses, and especially early on, you need every unit you can get. The 100 for a second bunker (you don't even really need the first one, but that's somewhat okay still, if you want to be really, really sure), plus the mins you sink into the marines, will put you so badly behind you will have a really hard time to recover.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost
So pylon/nexus/cannons? I'm just worried about vulnerability until cannons come out. Then again, I don't have to wait for Pylon to finish before I put down Nexus.
Cynan or Yakkul can explain it better, but the basics of a Protoss fast expansion (which, I should note, makes sense only against Zerg - it can work against Terrans, but actually costs you too much initiative, because you could rather easily expand anyway slightly later, but with such an early expo won't be able to delay the Terran's expo reasonably, and a Protoss will just run past your defenses and slaughter your probes at the main) is as follows:
Pylon at expo at 8 supply (send probe early).
Move probe to scout.
Forge at 10.
If necessary, send another probe to scout. You should find the Zerg base before the next step.
Assuming you found the Zerg, you look at his pool. If it's far from being done, start a nexus at 14 supply, then follow with two cannons. Otherwise, or if you couldn't find the Zerg, reverse the order.
Get a gate as soon as possible, and a second pylon.
The correct placement, so that zerglings don't run past and into your main, is somewhat hard to do though. I third Cynan's and Yakkul's suggestions to start with dual gate first. Much easier to pull off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost
Good idea. Any other tips for early Carrier Swarm?
As sarcastic as it might sound, my tip is: Don't use it.
Unlike BCs, Carriers are much more often reasonably worth it (often against Terrans, less so against Protoss, pretty much suicide against Zerg), but only once you can afford it, which is, with several expansions and a strong army. Until then, it weakens your army too much and costs you the opportunity to do damage, prevent enemy expansions, and expand yourself.
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The first problem of BCs is, any player of meaningful skill, be it Toss or Zerg, will kill you long before they are done. You weaken your main army much too much while they are being built.
Next, BCs suck badly against Protoss. A good Protoss will, when you have a meaningful amount of BattleCruisers, not only about three or four full control groups of dragoons, he will also have High Templar which will eradicate your BCs with their storms. Or, if he's feeling fancy, he will stasis all of them with a single arbiter. I won't even begin to describe what a Zerg's plague is going to do.
Seriously, BCs in a matchup other than TvT lategame are a deathwish. They are one of the least used units in the game, and for a good reason.
Ahh, much becomes clear, now. Thanks for clarifying this.
[qote]The thing is, the opponent is going to have an air force only later. Very much later*1. And only if you allow him to. Until then, Goliaths are just pointless. (Except against Terrans, under some circumstances).
*1 Except for Zerg, who tend to get Mutalisk swarms early. But here Marines&Medics are far more versatile and useful than Goliaths, so 'no' to Goliaths again.[/quote] My sparring partner takes extreme joy in shuttling troops, which is why I generally go with goliaths. two shuttles with 5 marines and 1 medic each runs up and drops down in annoying places for severe harassment. This he does to keep me off guard while he starts his tank production up and running.
Quote:
However, and that's the main problem with all of your build orders up there - you cannot decide to play X only because you play race Y. The units you have to use vary depending on the match-up. Going Mech (=factory units only) against a Zerg is, more often than not, a very poor idea, you need Marines&Medics for that, with Tank support. On the other hand, against Protoss, M&Ms are practically worthless beyond the very early stages of the game, you need Vultures and Tanks for that.
Same goes with any race and any match-up. You can't just decide to play X without regard for the opponent's race. And even that's still not the full truth - because, no matter what match-up, you still need to adjust to whatever the opponent is doing.
However, many times I simply don't know what I'm running up against until the first scout finds something. I won't know if I'm going vs z or vs t or vs p until the first engagement, so I need a start that will be generally useful.
Quote:
Also, all of your build-orders are way, way too defensive. A good player will outexpand you, and never allow you to leave your base; only short time thereafter, a massive wave of units will roll over your base.
Remember, units are under almost all circumstances preferable to static defenses, and especially early on, you need every unit you can get. The 100 for a second bunker (you don't even really need the first one, but that's somewhat okay still, if you want to be really, really sure), plus the mins you sink into the marines, will put you so badly behind you will have a really hard time to recover.
Yea, like I said, epic phail on macro. The two try to end up in chokepoints far enough out to cover natural and maybe even one other. This is early warning defense to let me know when he's closing in and speedbump to be able to counter an assault.
Quote:
Cynan or Yakkul can explain it better, but the basics of a Protoss fast expansion (which, I should note, makes sense only against Zerg - it can work against Terrans, but actually costs you too much initiative, because you could rather easily expand anyway slightly later, but with such an early expo won't be able to delay the Terran's expo reasonably, and a Protoss will just run past your defenses and slaughter your probes at the main) is as follows:
Pylon at expo at 8 supply (send probe early).
Move probe to scout.
Forge at 10.
If necessary, send another probe to scout. You should find the Zerg base before the next step.
Assuming you found the Zerg, you look at his pool. If it's far from being done, start a nexus at 14 supply, then follow with two cannons. Otherwise, or if you couldn't find the Zerg, reverse the order.
Get a gate as soon as possible, and a second pylon.
The correct placement, so that zerglings don't run past and into your main, is somewhat hard to do though. I third Cynan's and Yakkul's suggestions to start with dual gate first. Much easier to pull off.
Good advice, I think I've got some more research to do on the topic to figure out what you just said.
Quote:
As sarcastic as it might sound, my tip is: Don't use it.
Unlike BCs, Carriers are much more often reasonably worth it (often against Terrans, less so against Protoss, pretty much suicide against Zerg), but only once you can afford it, which is, with several expansions and a strong army. Until then, it weakens your army too much and costs you the opportunity to do damage, prevent enemy expansions, and expand yourself.
Well, of course Carrier Swarm vs zerg = phail, scourge swarm FTW. Terrans have their Lockdown, assuming they've teched up to ghosts. That's a lot of gas, though. If you can keep them boxed in and delay their gas harvest, it can be pretty effective against terrans.
Also, I have a Belkin n52te gamepad, would appreciate any help in what to program in. I was thinking of using the middle nine as my basic numbers, with the pinky row being ctrl, shift to build, and shift to advanced.
Also, is the F1-F4 any good to set for bases for quickly moving from base to base? That frees me up for more numbers for more unit squads.
Do any of you terrans bother with medics against other terrans? A single medic can cancel out two ghosts in a lockdown/restoration war, not to mention clean up plague and parasites. Yeah, it's a good bit of micro, but not much more than your opponent selecting a ghost and the unit to hit with a lockdown.
On BCs: The only good part about them is the look on your opponent's face when he realizes you actually have the resources to produce and throw battlecruisers at him. Science vessels would do a better job against protoss bases, and have the added benefit of nuking the high templar's energy along with their shields. The yamato cannon is really only good for softening up static base defenses, and if your opponent has invested that heavily in them, a nuke would be more fun, if not more practical, because you'll have all the expansions. Would I use them? Yeah, but only because I think something that big just has to be used every so often. Besides, I imagine they make a great distraction for the cloaked wraith group I just sent to harass your workers.
On mines: A few unmentioned uses: mines can detect cloaked enemies and then blow 'em up, so they're great for anti-DT purposes. They can be placed at expansion points in order to watch for the scout who inevitably will come to build up, and if placed right will prevent him from making the nexus/hatchery/command center.
On me: I ran into the same problems as the one guy earlier on who couldn't play games with more than one person without experiencing extreme lag. I'd enjoy playing again, but I know that I'd lose to even the newbiest of you.
I think I'm trying to emulate this or this zergling rush.
I've played against one of the commentators on the first of those matches! NuketheStars, I remember that game, since it's one of the few random Bnet games I won. Odd that such a newby player (he was definitely newby, to lose to me) would be commentating.
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Re: GitP StarCraft 1: Brood War group (thread II)
(I'm making a comeback as a Zerg, though.)
Yeah, Zerg are more macro-intensive, but then again I at least don't die to the first attack that is commenced. 
Trophies.
