Synchronized Swordsman (PRC)

[Proven_Paradox]

Balance is a tricky thing because you have to define what exactly you're balancing this against. If you're wanting to keep this along the lines of the core + Complete series PrCs and base classes, I'd say this is great as-is; don't change a thing. I get the impression that you're going for somewhere in those lines.

However, I don't want to get into melee without the Tome of Battle anymore, and this doesn't quite measure up to those classes. Really though, that could be fixed by adding a martial maneuver progression (I'm thinking iron heart and/or diamond mind focused; those two schools are the most discipline focused, which fits the flavor here well).


Anyway, that still doesn't fix a fundamental problem with this class as it relates to PCs: it puts two of your party members into the exact same role. Maybe it's not such a big deal in big parties, but if you only have four players, this will never actually see play because having two people on the same (and arguably the least important) slot is going to leave you with roles unfulfilled. This is a great concept, but that problem really cripples it for PC use in most situations, pigeon-holing this class into an NPC role.

As I was thinking about this problem, I had a thought... If the problem is that the Synchronized Swordsman only fills one role, why not make Synchronized versions of other classes?

I'm thinking about a Synchronized Rogue that gets a sneak attack progression (perhaps 2/3 instead of 1/2, but that kind of detail is best left to when you're actually making the class), a skill list that allows them to continue to fill the stealth/trapmonkey shoes, Synchronized class features that give them bonuses when working with a partner, and so on.

Then there'd be the Synchronized Caster--as I see it now, I don't think there'd be a need to separate out arcane, divine, and psionics since they all do the same thing with a few vaguely different options. Bonuses to casting defensively while a team-mate is around, allowing teammates caught in friendly-fire AoEs to auto success saves on those spells, perhaps a bonus to save DCs on foes who are threatened by teammates...

That kind of thing. Perhaps there could be a Synchronized Martial Adept for us ToB fans.

The more I think about it, the more I want to actually do it. I'm in the midst of finals at the moment and I've got a couple of other homebrew projects taking my time after that, but eventually I think I might revisit this idea. Or if there are some interested parties, there could be some sort of partnership formed to hammer these out; I'd totally be up for that.

[Icewalker]

SilentNight and I have already decided to play a pair of these in a game, we're just still looking for a possible pbp game to take.

[BRC]

Originally Posted by Icewalker

SilentNight and I have already decided to play a pair of these in a game, we're just still looking for a possible pbp game to take.

YAY! You'll have to tell me how it works out.
For a little background, my regular group usually has between six and eight people a session, so I often have trouble remembering that most groups are only four players. But if we assume that anything that can't be used by a four-person tank-wizard-cleric-skillmonkey group is useless, we throw away about 90% of the game. Plus it can always be used as an interesting encounter.

As for other similar paired- PRC's, I have some ideas for paired casters. Flavorwise it would work best if they were both arcane or divine, mechanics wise you could probably slot one of each in there with no problem. But Psionics works with an entierly different system, so I don't think I could mesh the two mechanically.

The only problem with making a paired rogue type class would be an urge to make the class Those Two Bad Guys, with mechanical differences for the "Brains" and the "Brawn" in such a group, and a penalty if they didn't refer to each other as "mister"

[zerombr]

Originally Posted by Djinn_In_Tonic

The Rogue's Opportunist ability seems PERFECT for this class. 1/round free Opportunity attack on an opponent your partner has struck in melee? Sounds good. One makes the opening for the other.

seconded, and insisted upon.

[BRC]

Originally Posted by zerombr

seconded, and insisted upon.

Added quite some time ago.
Also, I just now added something to the description of Combat Cant. Namely, because the cant is indecipherable not because of the words themselves, but because of the associations they hold for the partners. For example, one partner says to the other "Let's Redfish him", referring to a tactic they used in the town of Redfish. Because of this, spells like Tongues or Comprehend language do nothing to decipher it, merely let you make the intelligence check if you don't understand the language the partners are speaking in.

[Trodon]

Originally Posted by BRC

YAY! You'll have to tell me how it works out.
For a little background, my regular group usually has between six and eight people a session, so I often have trouble remembering that most groups are only four players. But if we assume that anything that can't be used by a four-person tank-wizard-cleric-skillmonkey group is useless, we throw away about 90% of the game. Plus it can always be used as an interesting encounter.

As for other similar paired- PRC's, I have some ideas for paired casters. Flavorwise it would work best if they were both arcane or divine, mechanics wise you could probably slot one of each in there with no problem. But Psionics works with an entierly different system, so I don't think I could mesh the two mechanically.

The only problem with making a paired rogue type class would be an urge to make the class Those Two Bad Guys, with mechanical differences for the "Brains" and the "Brawn" in such a group, and a penalty if they didn't refer to each other as "mister"

hey i am dming a pbp game that SilentNight and Icewalker have a good chance of getting in to i will let you know on how that class holds up :)

[Pyrusticia]

Originally Posted by BRC

As for other similar paired- PRC's, I have some ideas for paired casters. Flavorwise it would work best if they were both arcane or divine, mechanics wise you could probably slot one of each in there with no problem. But Psionics works with an entierly different system, so I don't think I could mesh the two mechanically.

Hmm...any chance of a paired caster/fighter class? It'd be versatile enough to fit into most groups, and could have abilities such as:

-If the fighter fights defensively, the caster gets a bonus for concentration checks.

-Fighter gets a bonus to resisting spells cast by partner (allowing caster to use AoE around the fighter).

-Enemies injured by the caster count as flanked for the fighter for the rest of the round.

Those are just a few I thought of, I'm sure there are others that would be as good, or better.

[BRC]

Originally Posted by Pyrusticia

Hmm...any chance of a paired caster/fighter class? It'd be versatile enough to fit into most groups, and could have abilities such as:

-If the fighter fights defensively, the caster gets a bonus for concentration checks.

-Fighter gets a bonus to resisting spells cast by partner (allowing caster to use AoE around the fighter).

-Enemies injured by the caster count as flanked for the fighter for the rest of the round.

Those are just a few I thought of, I'm sure there are others that would be as good, or better.

Ooh, interesting. I'd been maintaining my thinking to Synch Swordsman style Paired PRCs, where both partners are the same. But two-role PRC's, essentially two PRC's working in conjunction, opens up countless nifty possibilities.

[Draken]

Alternativelly, you could have each specific Synchronized class (Swordsman, Caster, Psion, etc, etc...) give different bonuses when paired with different other synchronizeds.

And then limit synchronization to one at any given moment, and make it a 5 minute thing to change synchronization with another ally, then add a feat to lower these 5 minutes to a full round action, and maybe add the capstone of synchronizing with two allies at any time. If you look carefully, you will see a ToB reference in this post. Or not so carefully, really.

[Icewalker]

A standardized synchronization system to pair with any given class? Fun concept.

[Roderick_BR]

I like it. I've seen some attempts at a partnership PrC, and this one looks good.
Hmm.. For a more general type of class, maybe a 5 level PrC would be better. As it is, it's good, but then you need to go 10 levels in it, and so your companion.

[Khatoblepas]

Preamble:

Spoiler

Before I begin, I want to say I'm a sucker for exotic classes - things that are both flavorful and powerful, but not crazy or one-trick ponies, like the Frenzied Berserker. I come from a background of high power games where the warriors get as many options as spellcasters, even if they're still not the all-consuming power that is magic. Post-Tome of Battle thinking, this.

This class has the flavor, but no power to back it up. It's mostly passive bonuses, with a couple of useless "flavor" abilities. Flavor doesn't mean "I will never use this ever I'm sure". At 16th level, these guys are no better at fighting together than if they had taken synergistic combinations of classes instead. 10 levels is a lot, so you have to have some kind of cool payoff. At the moment, it's on par with Knight Protector and Duelist. Cool on paper, but useless when you put 10 levels of most other cool things onto it. Especially when it's 20 levels in total - 10 for two characters!

That said, I agree with adding a martial manuever progression, and maybe some other things, like:

"Combat Cant" - I think Sense Motive is more apt than an Intelligence check, since you're divining what they mean, not why they're saying.

Change "Hey, Get up!" to 10 * Class level in healing or temporary hit points if the partner drops below 1/2 their max hit points. This way the ability is actually useful, and likely to be used, but doesn't actually heal much ABOVE your maximum hit points. This represents the ability of the partner to lift flagging spirits, to encourage and support the other partner. A second wind, if you like.

Perhaps Twinned Blades as written right now to is not very powerful at all, as you're likely to only hit with your primary and secondary attacks, making it very unlikely you'll get more than +20 damage on the entire manuever, which is equal to a single attack by a rogue, who can do that at will. And since mobility is always good(!), when are the swordsmen going to ever get to full attack the same enemy at the same time? As far as I can tell, anyway. It needs playtesting.

Very nice idea, though. I really do think it has a lot of potential.

[BRC]

Originally Posted by Khatoblepas

Preamble:

Spoiler

Before I begin, I want to say I'm a sucker for exotic classes - things that are both flavorful and powerful, but not crazy or one-trick ponies, like the Frenzied Berserker. I come from a background of high power games where the warriors get as many options as spellcasters, even if they're still not the all-consuming power that is magic. Post-Tome of Battle thinking, this.

This class has the flavor, but no power to back it up. It's mostly passive bonuses, with a couple of useless "flavor" abilities. Flavor doesn't mean "I will never use this ever I'm sure". At 16th level, these guys are no better at fighting together than if they had taken synergistic combinations of classes instead. 10 levels is a lot, so you have to have some kind of cool payoff. At the moment, it's on par with Knight Protector and Duelist. Cool on paper, but useless when you put 10 levels of most other cool things onto it. Especially when it's 20 levels in total - 10 for two characters!

That said, I agree with adding a martial manuever progression, and maybe some other things, like:

"Combat Cant" - I think Sense Motive is more apt than an Intelligence check, since you're divining what they mean, not why they're saying.

Change "Hey, Get up!" to 10 * Class level in healing or temporary hit points if the partner drops below 1/2 their max hit points. This way the ability is actually useful, and likely to be used, but doesn't actually heal much ABOVE your maximum hit points. This represents the ability of the partner to lift flagging spirits, to encourage and support the other partner. A second wind, if you like.

Perhaps Twinned Blades as written right now to is not very powerful at all, as you're likely to only hit with your primary and secondary attacks, making it very unlikely you'll get more than +20 damage on the entire manuever, which is equal to a single attack by a rogue, who can do that at will. And since mobility is always good(!), when are the swordsmen going to ever get to full attack the same enemy at the same time? As far as I can tell, anyway. It needs playtesting.

Very nice idea, though. I really do think it has a lot of potential.

Hmm, Making Combat Cant take a Sense Motive check does make sense, but if I do that I'd want to up the DC, maybe make it 10+(Class Level*2)

How about this for Hey, Get Up (Though I need a new name for it now): At Fifth level a synchronized swordsman can inspire their partner to push past physical limits. Once per day they may give a partner 10* Class level temporary hit points, these hit points cannot go above the partners maximum HP total.

As for Twinned Blades, I'll get some more feedback on that. Remember to add in the fact that, in addition to the Twinned Blades bonus, they may also be getting Improved Flanking bonus, and bonuses from "Got your Back".

I'd give it Martial progression, but I don't have Tome of Battle, so I don't know how.

[deuxhero]

Seems like it would be neat for a pair of quirky minibosses.

If you looking for abilites how about something like (general idea)
Get a hold of yourself man:One partner may apply a firm slap to the other (standard action), allowing the slapie to retry a saving throw for/be cured of (one of the two) various effects.

[Bobmufin52]

I really love the idea for this class, and I'd like to try it out on a comming game I have soon, but thier's one problem... can you give the class some class skills? XD

[Kroy]

Originally Posted by Bobmufin52

I really love the idea for this class, and I'd like to try it out on a comming game I have soon, but thier's one problem... can you give the class some class skills? XD

*Facepalm*
Never, ever ask a homebrewer to buff their creation so that you can get a boost without any reason provided.

[BRC]

Originally Posted by Kroy

*Facepalm*
Never, ever ask a homebrewer to buff their creation so that you can get a boost without any reason provided.

Actually, he's just asking me to complete the class. Currently, it has no class skills. I think you're thinking about class Features.
I think I'll just use the Fighter's skill list.

[Bobmufin52]

Originally Posted by BRC

Actually, he's just asking me to complete the class. Currently, it has no class skills. I think you're thinking about class Features.
I think I'll just use the Fighter's skill list.

Hm, Mabey add some from the Swashbuckler class too? I feel like they'd be more likely to take level in this class than a piar of fighters, but that's just me. :/

[Dreamshifter]

Originally Posted by BRC

Actually, he's just asking me to complete the class. Currently, it has no class skills. I think you're thinking about class Features.
I think I'll just use the Fighter's skill list.

With 4+Int skill points per level, the Fighter list is far from ideal. I'd probably second the Swashbuckler list, or at least expand the Fighter one. Perhaps Balance, Bluff, and Tumble?

Oh, and on another note, I'm hoping to test this one soon-ish (it's a level 6 campaign, so another level before we move into the PrC). I'll let you know how it performs, naturally.

[BRC]

Don't have the Swashbuckler list, so if somebody wants to tell me what it is, I'll gladly put it up.

[Bobmufin52]

The swashbuckler’s class skill list is…
4+int
Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Jump, Profession, Sense Motive, Swim, Tumble, and Use Rope

[Salvonus]

Hey mate, I'm thinking of using your PrC. Anyway, I had a strange compulsion (it happens sometimes) to edit something, so I did a tiny bit of typo-fixing (I had to resist the urge to add in oxford commas and -ise everywhere ) and formatting on your PrC. The result of my work is below - I hope you like it!

By the way, I suggest you add in Heal, Perform, and Intimidate to the class skill list. They all fit thematically with the class.

Also, Back to Back should apply for Combat Expertise (and Improved Combat Expertise^CWar) as well.

(You can quote my post if you wish to copy all the formatting.)

Synchronized Swordsman


Anersha and Aylia, Synchronized Swordswomen.

“You misunderstand; there may be two of you, but we are a pair. There is a very big difference between two swordsmen and a pair of swordsmen.”
-Archos Trillben and Charles Vidik, Synchronized Swordsmen.

Everybody knows that teamwork in combat is important. However, there are some people who recognize just how important. They train and practice together until they know each other’s movements, behavior and skills as well as they know their own. A pair of Synchronized Swordsmen are in constant, almost subconscious communication, each supports the other in everything they do. Such a team is vastly more than the sum of its parts, and as they progress, they act as one entity with two minds.

Requirements
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Attributes: 13 Charisma, 13 Wisdom
Alignment: Partners must be of compatible alignments - that is, not directly opposed on either the Good/Evil or Law/Chaos axis.
Special: Partners must take levels of this class concurrently. The partners must spend at least a week together in intensive training.

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Jump, Profession, Sense Motive, Swim, Tumble, and Use Rope
Skills Points at Each Level: 4 + Int Modifier

HD: d10

Level	BAB	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Special
1st	+1	+2	+0	+0	Got Your Back +1, Improved Aid
2nd	+2	+3	+0	+0	Combat Cant, Synchronized Action
3rd	+3	+3	+1	+1	Got Your Back +2, Back to Back
4th	+4	+4	+1	+1	Improved Flanking, Set Up
5th	+5	+4	+1	+1	Hey, Get Up!, Got Your Back +3, Retaliatory Defense
6th	+6	+5	+2	+2	You Wait, I’ll Go
7th	+7	+5	+2	+2	Got Your Back +4, Avenge the Fallen
8th	+8	+6	+2	+2	We'll Both Go
9th	+9	+6	+3	+3	Got Your Back +5
10th	+10	+7	+3	+3	Of One Mind, Twinned Blades

Partners: If a synchronized swordsman is separated from his partner, or if the partner dies and cannot be resurrected, they may train with a new partner who has at least one level in synchronized swordsman. However, if the partners are of different synchronized swordsman levels, they only get the class features available to the one with fewer synchronized swordsman levels.

Got Your Back (Ex): At 1st level, the synchronized swordsmen begin to gain confidence in the presence of one another. Provided they started the turn within ten feet of each other, both partners receive a +1 circumstance bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws. At 3rd level, this bonus increases to +2, at 5th, it increases to +3, at 7th +4, and +5 at 9th level.

Combat Cant (Ex): At 2nd level, the partners become so familiar with one another that they can communicate to each other via a shorthand made up of expressions, gestures, in-jokes, and unfinished words. If two partners wish to communicate to one another, they may use this odd code. The partners understand each other perfectly, but anybody else must make a DC (10 + class level*2) sense motive check to understand them. Because the actual vocabulary is taken from some common language between the two partners, the combat cant does not qualify as a language, and spells such as tongues or comprehend languages provide no help in understanding the Cant.

Improved Aid (Ex): When a synchronized swordsmen makes an aid another check to help their partner, the bonus increases by 2.

Synchronized Action (Ex): At 2nd level, the partners have learned how to coordinate their movements. When a pair of swordsmen make initiative checks, they both use the better of their two checks.

Back to Back (Ex): At 3rd Level, two swordsmen learn to coordinate their movements such that they can operate in close quarters without getting in each other's way. Partners can occupy the same 5 ft. square, and are immune to flanking when they are doing so. In addition, if one partner fights defensively, or takes a full defense action, both partners receive the AC bonus.

Set Up (Ex): At 4th level, a pair of swordsmen learn to, even as they attack, set up their partner for a second attack. Being struck in melee combat by one partner provokes an attack of opportunity from the other once per round. This ability is not triggered by attacks of opportunity.

Improved Flanking (Ex): When two synchronized swordsmen of at least 4th level flank the same target, both swordsmen deal an additional 1d6 damage to that target. In addition, they act as a rogue of their class level +4 to determine if they can flank an opponent with Uncanny Dodge.

Hey, Get Up! (Ex): At 5th level, a synchronized swordsman can inspire their partner to push past physical limits. Once per day they may give a partner 10 * class level temporary hit points, these hit points cannot go above the partners maximum HP total.

Retaliatory Defense (Ex): At 5th level, a synchronized swordsman is able to defend against attacks in such a way as to make an opening for their partner. Attacking one partner in melee provokes an attack of opportunity from the other.

You Wait, I'll Go (Ex): At 6th level, an undefined ability is gained.

Avenge the Fallen (Ex): At 7th level, the bond between the partners as grown so strong, that killing one only enrages and strengthens the other. If one partner dies, the other Rages as a barbarian of level equal to their character level.

We'll Both Go (Ex): At 8th level, an undefined ability is gained.

Of One Mind (Ex): At 10th level, synchronized swordsmen have spent so much time and trained together so much that they have picked up talents from each other. A synchronized swordsman may use the base saving throws or skill ranks of their partner. In addition, if one partner is aware of a foe, both partners are. If the partners are adjacent and one is not flanked, neither is flanked. If one partner succeeds on a save to defeat an illusion, resist an enchantment, or see through a lie, both partners do.

Twinned Blades (Ex): At 10th level, the partners have reached a level of synchronization that makes them nigh-unstoppable in close-quarters. When they are occupying the same five-foot space, or if they are flanking the same foe, the partners may make a special full-attack action once per encounter. In this action, they both make full-attacks, alternating individual strikes (Partner A Attacks at his full AB, then Partner B attacks at his full AB, then Partner A does his second attack, and so on). If any attack deals at least two damage to a foe, then subsequent attacks to the same foe receive a +2 bonus to attack and damage. These bonuses stack for every attack that deals at least damage. (So, if Partner A's attack hits, then Partner B's attack receives a +2 bonus. If that hits as well, Partner A's second attack receives a +4 bonus). They can only use this tactic once per encounter.




Oh, since you don't have Tome of Battle, here's (probably) a reasonable (optional) maneuver progression for this class. I chose Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and White Raven for the disciplines, as they are the least wuxia-orientated parts of the Tome of Battle. Furthermore, White Raven is just perfect for a class like this.

It's by no means perfect, but at least it's a start.

Tome of Battle Expansion

Requirements
Martial Maneuvers: Must know at least one White Raven maneuver.

Class Skills: Add Concentration to the list of class skills, as it is the key skill for the Diamond Mind discipline.

Level	Man. Known	Man. Readied	Stances Known
1st	1	0	0
2nd	0	1	1
3rd	1	0	0
4th	0	0	0
5th	0	0	0
6th	1	1	1
7th	0	0	0
8th	1	0	0
9th	1	1	1
10th	0	0	0

Maneuvers: At 1st, 3rd, 6th, 8th, and 9th level, a synchronized swordsman gains new maneuvers known from the Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, or White Raven disciplines. You must meet a maneuver's prerequisite to learn it. You add your full class level to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest-level maneuvers known.
At 2nd, 6th, and 9th level, you gain additional maneuvers readied per day.

Stances Known: At 2nd, 6th, and 9th level, a synchronized swordsman learns a new martial stance from the Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, or White Raven Disciplines. You must meet a stance's prerequisites to learn it.

[BRC]

Woah, Very nice, thanks. Original Post edited.

[Fay Graydon]

I back this class 100%
*Takes 1 level In this class till I find another of the same class*

What about adding a rule that allows them to strike with the same initiative?
Or a paired attack at the same time?

[Iferus]

Got Your Back kind of excludes flanking creatures larger than medium, doesn't it?