GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

[Penthar]

About the imbalance that is Undead vs Orc, perhaps this article can be of help, even though it sounds pretty micro intensive to me, and I lack the knowledge and experience to judge how viable it is. Nevertheless, it does sound interesting, and it's a nice read: http://www.wcreplays.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55953

Er kommt aus der Dunkelheit der Grube

[Jinura]

All right, so I've finally got myself together to actually try DotA instead of just rejecting it. Now first, hell thats a fun game second, the people in it are about the worst jerks I've met. I have no idea about a lot of things like strategy and such, and when I ask for help, they just call me retarted.. So anyone got some tips for a new DotA player?

[Winthur]

About the imbalance that is Undead vs Orc, perhaps this article can be of help, even though it sounds pretty micro intensive to me, and I lack the knowledge and experience to judge how viable it is.

Interesting, but according to That Guy I Know Who Plays WC3, it's not that viable. He suggests an early t2 push with fiends, dk lvl3 and lich with frost armor 1 instead. Otherwise, your units will be eaten by the blademaster, because you don't have high enough Coil when he attacks.

However, I'm not sure of the viability of that, either.

[Winterwind]

Originally Posted by nooblade

I think next week I'll be done with this massive homework wave and able to play some online games.

Yay!

Originally Posted by Penthar

About the imbalance that is Undead vs Orc, perhaps this article can be of help, even though it sounds pretty micro intensive to me, and I lack the knowledge and experience to judge how viable it is. Nevertheless, it does sound interesting, and it's a nice read: http://www.wcreplays.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55953

Er kommt aus der Dunkelheit der Grube

Lib linked me to this article a while ago, I haven't gotten to giving it a try yet though.

Originally Posted by Jinura

All right, so I've finally got myself together to actually try DotA instead of just rejecting it. Now first, hell thats a fun game second, the people in it are about the worst jerks I've met. I have no idea about a lot of things like strategy and such, and when I ask for help, they just call me retarted.. So anyone got some tips for a new DotA player?

Well... precisely due to the horrid community, a lot of people here do not play DotA out of principle (and some other reasons, too). You'd probably have more success asking the people in the DotA thread, though I'm not sure if it's still alive. Though I believe it's not old enough for reviving it being considered thread necromancy...

What little advice I could give you (and my experience with DotA is limited to say the least): Pick some hero and learn how to play him or her first before progressing to others, read up in guides how to pick skills and, most importantly, items for the heroes you play, take care it's the creeps that take the damage from other creeps and not you, be careful when your creeps pass the river (you are in danger from being sneaked up on from behind then).

Originally Posted by Winthur

Interesting, but according to That Guy I Know Who Plays WC3, it's not that viable. He suggests an early t2 push with fiends, dk lvl3 and lich with frost armor 1 instead. Otherwise, your units will be eaten by the blademaster, because you don't have high enough Coil when he attacks.

However, I'm not sure of the viability of that, either.

I see pretty much the same issue with this strategy. It helps the UD make a stand against the Orc on T2, when usually one would have to reach T3... but it makes it much more difficult to live to see T2 in the first place! A Blademaster picking off accolytes or even fiends will hurt badly without a Death Knight around.

Also, a Lich as third hero seems insane to me. Low hit point Intelligence-heroes are too fragile to make good third heroes, in my opinion. I play fairly often with three heroes... but I always make sure the third hero is a sturdy Strength hero, maybe Agility, but surely not Intelligence.

I think a hybrid of what that article proposed and what UD usually do against Orcs might work best - fiends and DK at T1, adding a Lich, statues and banshees at T2, as well as more fiends if the Orc goes for wyverns and ghouls if he goes for raiders. Necros and wagons in the case of kodos.
...then again, many Undeads use banshees in this matchup anyhow.

[742]

i never understood not using banshees.

[Winterwind]

The problems with using banshees are the following:

Firstly, it requires you investing a fair amount of resources into getting another building and upgrading the banshees. You have crypts and slaughterhouses no matter what, but a temple of the damned and banshee upgrades would be an additional investment that does not directly add units to the army and may delay your T3 (and you never want to delay your T3 as Undead).

Secondly, if you face opponents with good and much pierce damage, they are too fragile. That essentially rules out using them against Undead (fiends or gargoyles - either will tear your banshees apart) and makes them a poor choice against Night Elves (where it's usually a race against the number of dryads anyway).

Thirdly, their abilities often won't help you all that much anyway.
Curse? Humans will area dispell it with priests or steal it with spellbreakers. Night Elves will break it with dryads - sure, the dryads run out of mana sooner than you, but you won't live long enough to see their mana depleted anyway, because you failed to invest the resources bound in the banshees into something actually useful. Undead will laugh and empower their destroyers. Only with Orcs do you have a good chance for them not having the dispell ready or not being able to dispell quickly enough.
Antimagic Shell? Since most people don't use debuffs against Undead in the first place, the usefulness of this is greatly limited. A large part of spells typically used against Undead is not of a type that affects their units in the first place, and many of those that are can be countered by micro alone. Granted, situationally, it may turn out to be useful, but again, most of these situations are "TC with shockwave".
Possession? A good army can disrupt it easily enough, unless you bring really many banshees or the opponent gets the totally wrong units. The former is easy in a map like Micro Arena, will leave you too weakened for too long in a real game though, the latter relies on the opponent making a cardinal mistake, which is a poor basis for a sound strategy.

As usual, all of the above only for solo games. In team games, matters look quite differently.

[nooblade]

Interesting, I thought Anti Magic Shell was mostly for preventing some damage on hero abilities like Shockwave or Storm Bolt. I know it changed in one of the patches (or more).

[Winterwind]

Originally Posted by nooblade

Interesting, I thought Anti Magic Shell was mostly for preventing some damage on hero abilities like Shockwave or Storm Bolt. I know it changed in one of the patches (or more).

Which is correct (I always keep forgetting how AMS works, I use it far too rarely). The thing is, Storm Bolt is a one target spell, and will most likely end up being used against your hero. Which you can counter simply by keeping the hero further in the back and not letting him get focused, and keeping a healing or invulnerability potion on him - much cheaper than getting Adept Banshees only for the heroes.

Shockwave would be a good reason to get Antimagic Shell, sure, but I specifically mentioned that. What else is there in the terms of area damage? Chain Lightning? Belongs to Orcs, too (where, as I said, banshees can indeed make sense). Blizzard? Most will go for Water Elementals, and it can be countered by micro anyway. Flame Strike? Can be countered by micro alone. Rain of Fire? Very rare sight, and can be countered by micro too. Carrion Swarm? Hardly anyone ever uses that. Frost Nova? Okay, that's a good reason to get it, but getting banshees against Undead with their excellent piercing damage choices is risky as hell. Orb of Disruption? Yes, that would prevent the destroyers from murdering your abominations... but then again, just getting more fiends or gargoyles and killing the destroyers would do so even more effectively.

[nooblade]

Originally Posted by nooblade

I think next week I'll be done with this massive homework wave and able to play some online games.

Nevermind. >.>

Ahh, well. Someday I'll take some pictures and write up a bit on what I'm doing right now (microprocessors). It's really cool when things work out, but these unusual programming hiccups need to be expelled through brute, monotonous force.

But I'll actually be gone because there are two more book-work assignments due Monday and I'm not finding the time to do them yet.

[The Orange Zergling]

And back - should be able to resume coming to the sessions now.

[Copper8642]

I no longer work where I used to work and my schedule is definitely more open. Which means I may return to being able to play WC3 on the actual meeting days. Like I did the first week of Summer and never did again.

[Winterwind]

Welcome back, Baneling! I was already worried you were gone for two weeks instead of one, and we'd be missing you on this weekend as well.

Great to hear, Copper!

[Darth Mario]

So, after a long absence during which time I managed to somehow get into college, I'm planning to return to the group this Friday, or, barring that, this Sunday. Looking forward to some players who can school me on most maps, LAN games with my friends back home have been getting stale, since I outclass most of them at most maps.

[Inhuman Bot]

Originally Posted by Darth Mario

So, after a long absence during which time I managed to somehow get into college, I'm planning to return to the group this Friday, or, barring that, this Sunday. Looking forward to some players who can school me on most maps, LAN games with my friends back home have been getting stale, since I outclass most of them at most maps.

Who are you?




Welcome back.

[Winterwind]

Welcome back, DM.

So, reminder: Tomorrow is our next custom map session. I hope to see you all there.

[Nohwl]

i should be able to get on tomorrow before the session ends.

[u-gotNOgame]

I will not be there tommorow night, I will however try to make it for sunday. My course schedule combined with extra-curiculars is taking quite the toll on my free time.

-UGNG

[The Orange Zergling]

To those who don't know, I won't be able to come to the Sunday session tomorrow (er, technically today) because I'm seeing a friend. I might shoot for being on during the week though, but no promises.

[nooblade]

One of these days I'll play online videogames again.

[Legoshrimp]

This is scary. We got pushed to the second page. We need something to discuss! Ideas?

I play HU mostly. So what are some of your favorite stratagies and build orders?

I don't have anything in specific after t1. I normally start with a farm and alter then rax then lumber mill, shop, and blacksmith in no perticular order after that. Unless I completely forget about the shop. I get 2-3 footman before switching to rifleman. My first up is normally black gun powdler. Any ideas on how to improve that?

[Myrmex]

Scout? If you are going vs. NE or Undead, dual rax + defend can be good for a late T1 rush. Defend & footmen is also great for creeping, since so many creeps do piercing damage.

If you are facing NE, get mortar & slow asap, since NEs have a lot of mobility and weakness to siege/AoE damage with low HP, unarmored units (dryad, huntress, archer).

I try to get shop asap, since human items are quite good. With a lesser pot of clarity, a scroll of healing, 6 militia, 2 footies, and a hero, you can have an expansion building before the first night fall with no losses in HP, units, and a very minor dent to mana.

[742]

defend is useless against late T1 NE. defend only works VS piercing attacks. huntresses do normal. only idiots who think theyre good enough and people who are near-pro level use archers. i agree on fiends though-you dont stand a chance without defend and long rifles.

HU really suck T1, you need at least T2 to be useful is most matchups outside of a rush.

also; someone get on Bnet. im bored.

[Oslecamo]

Care to join ICCup?

[Winterwind]

There is an ICCup for WarCraft?

How popular is it, what kind of people play there, and... why? What advantage does it have over the regular BNet ladder?



Reminder: Tomorrow is our next custom map session. Not sure I'll be able to make it, but I'll try.

[The Orange Zergling]

Well, tomorrow is my birthday (only recently realized it was on a Friday) so I don't think I'll be able to make the session. May be able to pop in for a bit at the end but no promises.

Jeez, after I come back saying "I can come to the sessions again" I have to miss two in two weeks...

[Winterwind]

Hardly believable now that you were still twelve (if barely) when this group was founded, isn't it?

Which reminds me... *checks*
Wow, how could we miss that? Last Friday marked the second anniversary of this group!

[The Orange Zergling]

Originally Posted by Winterwind

Hardly believable now that you were still twelve (if barely) when this group was founded, isn't it?

Something like that, yeah.

Originally Posted by Winterwind

Which reminds me... *checks*
Wow, how could we miss that? Last Friday marked the second anniversary of this group!

Damnit! One of these years I'm going to remember that and make us a special anniversary map...

[Winterwind]

I won't be able to participate today after all... I'm at my parents, with only my laptop, and for some reason I never was able to figure out my laptop is always hit by bluescreen when running WarCraft.

No D&D group tomorrow either (no headset here).

I'll be back home in time for the Sunday melee session though.

Originally Posted by The Orange Zergling

Damnit! One of these years I'm going to remember that and make us a special anniversary map...

Would it be as crazy as the Blizzard Easter map?

Also, happy birthday, Baneling!

[742]

it bluescreens? what OS? what manufacturer/model number?

[Inhuman Bot]

Originally Posted by Winterwind

There is an ICCup for WarCraft?

Yes, there most definately is.

Originally Posted by 742

it bluescreens? what OS? what manufacturer/model number?

I'm guessing Ein's Mac, in laptop form.