Originally Posted by Jamin
In my opinion using a bad word for art is like using poo to make art sure it is a good use for it but there is always something better to use.
Actually, I've seen some really interesting skid marks on my underwear that I SWEAR look like Don King.
To say that vulgarity is offensive is to assert that one is in a class distinct from the common class.
I don't agree with Jamin's position on cussing, but the above is not necessarily true. Many people believe there are turns of phrase that are acceptable in speech but inappropriate in writing. For works of fiction, naturalist dialogue is not the classical Western tradition.
Actually, in this very instance, it was probably the only appropriate thing to do to convey the feeling. The very reason Parson said **** is because of the presence of the censor present in the comic.
That argument is a bit circular, as it was an authorial decision to set up a profanity censor and have Parson constantly test it in order to set up this moment. To avoid making Parson into a frequent cusser, some other silly linguistic rule could have been imposed by Erfworld. For example, there could have been an automatic spell-check for goblin => gobwin and Parson could have been more stubborn about those names.
I certainly don't object to the last page of Book I, but frankly Book II might be unpleasant if Parson is permanently uncensored and is a major character.
I certainly don't object to the last page of Book I, but frankly Book II might be unpleasant if Parson is permanently uncensored and is a major character.
Parson never struct me as somebody who would be a big swearer, to be honest. The only time the profanity filter kicked in was when he was summoned to a new world (with a headache side effect). I don't know how I would react, but I would probably let go my mouth about it.
The few others instances were quite minor, and he was still learning about the world. Usually underlining surprise.
I don't think the writers are going to include cluster profanity bomb in their next book. They effectively seem to accept the fact that the scarity of the bad thing makes it more powerful (a philosophy I tend to strongly agree with). This time, it was a powerful message conveyed.
Yes, the argument is a bit circular, but it worked, didn't it? In the end, they managed to show what they wanted to show.
Last edited by SolkaTruesilver : 05-26-2009 at 03:16 AM.
It's been a long time since I logged on to post, but I wanted to commend the author and illustrator on a job very well done. I remember it got kind of rocky in the middle there but you guys held on to your vision, and it is wonderful ^_^
I eagerly await the next book to start, and until then there's plenty of oots archive to munch on ^_^
French-speaking in general (specially Quebecois). But they aren't as liberal with profanity as you might think. And the general French stereotype you might had is more of a "Parisian" reality/stereotype.
The denoted a joke. In my own experience, the worst potty mouths I've heard have invariably been Americans.
The actual etymology of the expression stems from the French Norman conquest of England, which resulted in a society where the educated elite spoke French, and later English with a lot of French words, while the words of Germanic or Norse roots were deemed crude and vulgar because they weren't the words of the elite. Compare "feces" with "sh*t". "Pardon my French" is thus "Pardon my insufficient French, I have to use the vulgar word instead."
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Originally Posted by Midnight Roamer
I think he did the only morally acceptable thing by killing everyone.
Look it is fine that you guys think it was a cool swear. More power too you. You feel that swearing is justifiable and I don't. We disagree about how we see page 162. This is a forum for discussing Erfworld. I, Jamin Big huge stick in the mud that I am think Erfworld is offensive and confusing. Others see it as a amazing and well thought out comic. I won't be reading book 2. Others will. Who is right? Everyone is right.
Look all I am trying to say is that my opinion is equal to yours not better or worse just the same . But you seem to feel that your world view is right and mine is close-minded. Well maybe mine is but who among you can say that there is not at least one thing you are close-minded about and that is okay
here come the attacks
Jamin Out
No, everyone is not right. Is NAMBLA's opinion right too? How about Hitler's or Bush's?
Opinions are not right by default. You have to provide rational arguments to support them. I and others already told you that. Did you read it?
BTW, putting "here come the attacks" in white like that is another thing that makes me think you're trolling, persecution complex and self-fulfilled prophecies and all that. You're not that important...
And again, the "frack you" at the end didn't convey the writer's opposition to censorship. It was merely a story element. Parson broke free enough to curse. The writer's opposition to censorship of this (idiotic) kind is shown before it. The curse word isn't needed at all, he could have not said it if he didn't want to. He already has said:
Quote:
What d'you have against obscenity, anyway?
You're fine with this obscenity.
Well okay than. Now I see the error of my ways you guys where right and using your huge space brains your belittled me and my one small voice into seeing the light of day. Thanks for saying that reasoning is so unfounded and that I don't have huge insight the way you all do. Now that I have grown up like you said I see that I was wrong the whole time. what was I thinking taking a word that is supposed to offend people as offensive. I really liked how people said I had to wrong because everyone else was going the other way. What a good truth to live by.
there happy now
Jamin Out
Troll. Don't just accuse everyone of persecuting you. If you want to stop listening to others, don't attack them, stop talking to them.
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When you use a vulgar word it is vulgar any way you use it.
In my opinion, your vision may be narrower than it needs to be on this subject.
It seems to me that you may be so rooted in the lessons that you were taught as a 5-year-old, that you might be unable to comprehend WHY you were taught those lessons when you were 5.
Small children are taught NEVER to use certain words, because those words are bad. They are told this, not because the words are inherantly bad, but because small children only understand simple, direct, and non-complex instructions.
As these small children later grow up to become adults, and become capable of comprehending nuance, subtlety, the use of differing social mores for differing social contexts, most of them will grow to understand that the world is much more complex than the simplistic maxims they were taught as a 5-year-old.
Others, however, will simply remain obediant to their early lessons, foreswearing all subtlety, nuance, and complexity, in favor of the warm and comforting feeling of virtuousness that comes from unquestioning obediance of rules that need never be explained, but must merely be obeyed.
As the latest strip demonstrates, the character of Parson Gotti is *not* one of the latter type of person.
I assume that most readers (as I do) find this to be a virtue of Parson's, rather than a flaw.
Erfworld has this habit of building up momentum and delivering anti-climatic resolution.
The Ansom Uhnn Tiss dance move
Ansom's Death
The close to the first book
Yes, I've read through the posts and appreciate that Parson is exerting his freedom against a world that has him captive. However, Parson completely misses that the problem also lies within himself. The sword only nudged foward the obsenities that were already inside him. So instead of realizing the core issue, Parson blames the world and his sword.
I'm also dissapointed in all of the loose ends left behind. Transylvito, Vinny, Jillian, Stanley, Wanda, Faq, tid-bits on Parson, etc. Yes, I know many of these loose ends could be lead-ins for the following book. I just hate the felling that I have been left hanging. Do any of you remember the movie V?
That said, I still like the Erfworld universe. The art rocks. I appreciate the efforts made to flesh out the characters. I guess...Erfworld is good, but it stops short of being great for me. I can't put my finger on it.
The denoted a joke. In my own experience, the worst potty mouths I've heard have invariably been Americans.
No, French, at least in the Paris area, are definitely worse. The colloquial use of the F word (and verb) is rampant in France. In the States people never used it with me in regular social situations outside of the drinking buddies kind of thing,
I still remember arriving in France and most of the informal small talk being stuff that would be big cuss words in my corner of the world. Simple things equivalent to "what are you doing", "just dump that in the corner", "it's ruined", "I don't care" and "I'm such an idiot" nearly made blush when my boss (a much older reasonably strict lady) used them. It took me some time not to get sort of shocked when my friends told them to their kids.
Yes, I've read through the posts and appreciate that Parson is exerting his freedom against a world that has him captive. However, Parson completely misses that the problem also lies within himself. The sword only nudged foward the obsenities that were already inside him. So instead of realizing the core issue, Parson blames the world and his sword.
This is actually a rather big assumption on your part.
Parson says to the world you do not control me and throws away a sword that nudges on tendencies that exist within him. This could as you claim be a way of laying the blaame onto the world rather than taking it upon himself, but it might as well be the first step to a complete change of character. I guess wel will have to wait for book two to see. But the point stands: throwing away the sword can symbolise both throwing away the blame that should actually adhere to him, and throwing away the influence the world have on him in orde to rework his ways from the buttom up.
No, French, at least in the Paris area, are definitely worse. The colloquial use of the F word (and verb) is rampant in France. In the States people never used it with me in regular social situations outside of the drinking buddies kind of thing,
I still remember arriving in France and most of the informal small talk being stuff that would be big cuss words in my corner of the world. Simple things equivalent to "what are you doing", "just dump that in the corner", "it's ruined", "I don't care" and "I'm such an idiot" nearly made blush when my boss (a much older reasonably strict lady) used them. It took me some time not to get sort of shocked when my friends told them to their kids.
I might wager a guess that Americans probably didn't talk like normal out of deference to you. Finding certain words offensive is not uncommon in America, and people tend to respect each others sensibilities as much as is conveniently possible. As far as profanity on the streets - it depends where you go. Not using much profanity is often part of what certain subcultures use in an attempt to allevieate other psychological issues. Go to a poor area in LA, see if you don't hear language that would put the Parisians to shame.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simanos
Opinions are not right by default.
Um, yes they are. That's a pretty big part of the difference between opinion and fact. I agree with your overall point, though.
No I don't have a phd in Erfworldology I have an opinion it worth just as much as yours. Why is yours better than mine?
All opinions are not equal; there are different kinds of opinions.
-An ignorant opinion is the least useful opinion.
-An unsupported opinion is only slightly stronger because you are given a little benefit of the doubt.
-A supported opinion is next because it at least shows the person put some thought into it.
-An educated opinion is the first opinion having some value because the opinion is supported by second hand knowledge. In other words, it's the first justified opinion.
-Best of all is an experienced opinion because it reflects first hand knowledge. Consider this a professional opinion.
So in other words, if someone gives an opinion and supports it, you cannot counter that "my opinion is just as valid as yours" if you don't at least meet the same standards of support.
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"If I could just interrupt your stunningly dysfunctional group dynamic for a moment to interject." -- Erfworld
Yes, I've read through the posts and appreciate that Parson is exerting his freedom against a world that has him captive. However, Parson completely misses that the problem also lies within himself. The sword only nudged foward the obsenities that were already inside him.
I don't think so.
Parson is well aware that he's a monster, and he hate the world for have awaken his inner monster.
He don't like killing, so he destroy the sword (which symbolizes the grip Erfworld had on him), because he wants to regain the control.
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Originally Posted by Kaiyanwang
Great analysis KA. I second all things you said
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Originally Posted by JoeYounger
Great analysis KA, I second everything you said here.
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Originally Posted by Ryu_Bonkosi
If I have a player using Paladin in the future I will direct them to this. Good job.
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Originally Posted by grimbold
THIS is proof that KA is amazing
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Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost
Killer Angel, you have an excellent taste in books
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Last edited by Killer Angel : 05-27-2009 at 02:06 AM.
In my opinion, your vision may be narrower than it needs to be on this subject.
It seems to me that you may be so rooted in the lessons that you were taught as a 5-year-old, that you might be unable to comprehend WHY you were taught those lessons when you were 5.
Small children are taught NEVER to use certain words, because those words are bad. They are told this, not because the words are inherantly bad, but because small children only understand simple, direct, and non-complex instructions.
As these small children later grow up to become adults, and become capable of comprehending nuance, subtlety, the use of differing social mores for differing social contexts, most of them will grow to understand that the world is much more complex than the simplistic maxims they were taught as a 5-year-old.
Others, however, will simply remain obediant to their early lessons, foreswearing all subtlety, nuance, and complexity, in favor of the warm and comforting feeling of virtuousness that comes from unquestioning obediance of rules that need never be explained, but must merely be obeyed.
As the latest strip demonstrates, the character of Parson Gotti is *not* one of the latter type of person.
I assume that most readers (as I do) find this to be a virtue of Parson's, rather than a flaw.
This made me laugh. The 5 year Jaimn used cuss words all the time. It was only when I was older that I decided that swearing was wrong.
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Parson finally has come to realize he may have the thoughts of a cold blooded murderer, but than again, he does design war games and had thought of a really bad one for his friends, so when the spell brings him in, it nudges those forward, even if he wouldn't have thought of doing them in real life, it is one thing to kill a million people in a game, since in a game there is no real death, and now that he knows the big fight is over, he realizes he is not just playing some game, but that all of his actions have consequences, so now he will no longer let something control him and make him do things he can no longer live with.
How would you feel if you suddenly found out that the old Contra game you played as a kid was real and you killed off thousands of characters in real life, even if it was another dimension of time/space that they were killed in? Parson has come to this same conclusion, and wants to never be a part of the mass slaughter without his express desire, which judging by his own words, he doesn't like the idea killing as he has done.
That is my 2 cents regarding this.
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Last edited by DrivinAllNight : 05-27-2009 at 11:58 AM.
Reason: seplinlg erorrs
Well okay than. Now I see the error of my ways you guys where right and using your huge space brains your belittled me and my one small voice into seeing the light of day. Thanks for saying that reasoning is so unfounded and that I don't have huge insight the way you all do. Now that I have grown up like you said I see that I was wrong the whole time. what was I thinking taking a word that is supposed to offend people as offensive. I really liked how people said I had to wrong because everyone else was going the other way. What a good truth to live by.
there happy now
Jamin Out
This is the classic "Everyone's entitled to their opinions... as long as they don't conflict with mine" argument.
You gave your opinion, which happened to oppose that of the majority of this forum. And sure, some of the responses were improper. There were the people who just said "loltroll" or "I wanna flame this guy!", and those are undeniably silly men who did a silly thing. But then we have people who are trying to give logical, well-reasoned arguments for why the use of profanity was acceptable here? And what are your responses? They fall into two camps:
1) "Profanity is always wrong, because it is always vulgar. It is vulgar because it is always wrong."
2) "You're persecuting me for having a different opinion. It's my right to have an opinion, don't act like you're better than me!"
Both of these are fallacies, and both completely undermine the entire purpose of a forum. This purpose is discussion, which can sometimes lead into disagreement and debate. In that situation, it should proceed like so:
Person A: I like Position X.
Person B: Well, I prefer Position Y, because of reasons 1, 2, and 3.
Person A: Reasons 1 and 2 don't really hold up because of counter-arguments 4 and 5, and I'd also say reason 6 speaks to the merits of X over Y.
And so forth. People with differing opinions trying to reasonably discuss which side of an argument is better supported by logic and evidence. Sure, there's no guarantee that somebody's opinion will be changed, but each side hopefully comes out understanding the other better, and becomes better at articulating their own positions. You, on the other hand, seem to advocate this:
Person A: I like Position X.
Person B: Well, I prefer Position Y.
Person A: So you do.
Person B: Aye.
What does that do for anyone? Why even have a discussion board at that point, when a simple "X vs. Y" poll would suffice? If providing reasons in favor of the legitimacy of Parson's curse constitutes persecution, and you're unwilling to provide arguments against its legitimacy, why not lock this thread, start up a poll that says "Is the swearing OK?" and delete any posts people make in it?
Be reasonable here. Your persecution argument makes absolutely no sense, and if you're going to stick around in this thread at all, please provide reasons why you think the swearing is unacceptable other than circular logic or truisms, i.e. not simply saying "it's vulgar, it's always vulgar and bad and wrong."
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Let me make some statements
1st I read erfworld all the way though
2nd I got to the end and then posted on the forum my opinion on the end
3rd I think that the swearing takes away form Parson's freedom because it shows him still ruled by rage. Throwing the sword was kinda cool
4th If you want to write an a comic with a R-rating than write one but at least tell people that there will people melting and some other bizarre stuff in it.
The main reason I disliked that f-bomb was that although I give erfworld about a 5/10 the ending was interesting to me but than they ruin the moment for me by saying look he can cuss now. yay I don't cuss anymore and I never have said the f-bomb (well maybe I have I don't know). I know I can't stop people from cussing but to have that word thrown up at me on a site that I go to mostly so I don't have to see that word made me mad.
So that was me trying to explain.
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I only read like 40 pages than stopped than saw it was over looked into.
what
Quote:
3rd I think that the swearing takes away form Parson's freedom because it shows him still ruled by rage. Throwing the sword was kinda cool
Thank you. This is, as far as I'm aware, the first actual point you've made in this thread, and it's great to see it. Obviously the point itself can be debated with, but that's good, because it's the whole point of what we're trying to do here.
Like uh, for example, in that case, doesn't throwing the sword also show that he's still ruled by rage? It's certainly a violent, emotional action (it's certainly not a symbolic laying down of arms, when we look at what else he's doing and saying in the strip), so why is that "kinda cool" while the curse word is "lame"? Both show that he's no longer bound by the rules of Erfworld but is still influenced by his own passions and emotions... so why does one get a free pass?
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Thank you. This is, as far as I'm aware, the first actual point you've made in this thread, and it's great to see it. Obviously the point itself can be debated with, but that's good, because it's the whole point of what we're trying to do here.
I have to agree. Thank you. It's a good argument--good enough I have to spend some time considering a good response. A flipant argument draws a flippant response. A thoughtful argument requires a thoughtful counter.
Bravo.
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"If I could just interrupt your stunningly dysfunctional group dynamic for a moment to interject." -- Erfworld
3rd I think that the swearing takes away form Parson's freedom because it shows him still ruled by rage. Throwing the sword was kinda cool.
Now that's an interesting point that can lead to meaningful discussion. Simply lashing out against external control makes you every bit as much the controller's puppet as if you simply give in to external control -- the control merely has the opposite polarity, as it were. I think that as the story proceeds, Parson's reactions will be more nuanced than that, but this moment can be seen as a howl of frustration.
I'm not ruled by my emotions for showing them ... and that's all curse words are to me, a show of emotion.
Also that's obviously all they were to Parson, he didn't stop cursing from day 1 even if he was censored by the rules of the game world. Hell, wouldn't it be stranger still if in the end he broke all the rules, but still was forced to say boop?
Last edited by PinkysBrain : 05-28-2009 at 03:05 AM.
Like uh, for example, in that case, doesn't throwing the sword also show that he's still ruled by rage? It's certainly a violent, emotional action (it's certainly not a symbolic laying down of arms, when we look at what else he's doing and saying in the strip), so why is that "kinda cool" while the curse word is "lame"? Both show that he's no longer bound by the rules of Erfworld but is still influenced by his own passions and emotions... so why does one get a free pass?
I could debate that throwing away the sword, implies that Parson is in self-control: he knows the value of the item, nevertheless he "accept" to rid free of it, because he wants to think by himself, without a magical compulsion (even if subtle and relatively weak), that stimulates his worst inner self.
While it's only the rage that make him swearing. (well, on this last point, I totally agree on the self-determination PoW, but this is for discussion's sake, right? )
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Things that increase my self esteem:
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Originally Posted by Kaiyanwang
Great analysis KA. I second all things you said
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeYounger
Great analysis KA, I second everything you said here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryu_Bonkosi
If I have a player using Paladin in the future I will direct them to this. Good job.
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Originally Posted by grimbold
THIS is proof that KA is amazing
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Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost
Killer Angel, you have an excellent taste in books
What do you mean? Do you mean that opinions are one's right to express them? Or that they seem right to that person?
I say ice cream is good. This is an opinion. We assume it to be true, and treat it as such. Obviously, if you then say ice cream is bad, we may discuss it with the aim of discovering whose opinion is more valid. But before a contradictory opinion is stated, my opinion was treated as wholly correct. Ergo, right by default.
Facts, by contrast, we assume to be incorrect. Consider, the fact that you can't lick your own elbow. People hearing this the first time will try to lick their elbows. That's because it's a fact, and we assume that any given fact is untrue until proven to be true.
Now that's an interesting point that can lead to meaningful discussion. Simply lashing out against external control makes you every bit as much the controller's puppet as if you simply give in to external control -- the control merely has the opposite polarity, as it were. I think that as the story proceeds, Parson's reactions will be more nuanced than that, but this moment can be seen as a howl of frustration.
But how else can you test a magical restriction that stops you from swearing than by swearing? It's also entierly possible that only being in a rage gave him the ability to override it. Now he knows he can get round it the presence of the restriction when he's not angry matters far less, even if the boop-shields descend again once he cools off. But he had to swaear, once, either to break the block in the first place, or to confirm that he actually could overcome it.
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Re: Erfworld 162
In the end, they managed to show what they wanted to show.
denoted a joke. In my own experience, the worst potty mouths I've heard have invariably been Americans. 
Re: Erfworld 162
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