The spontanious preparer (prc, PEACH)

[InaVegt]

I just wanted to make the sorcerer/wizard build useable so i created this prc

Spontanious preparer
Prerequisites
Ability to cast 2d level spells without preperation
Ability to prepare 2d level spells
knowledge (arcane) 10 ranks
Spellcraft 10 ranks
Spell mastery

class stats
HD: d4
class skills: (not listed in alfabetic order) Spot, listen, knowledge (all), Spellcraft, concentration, sense motive, diplomacy and bluff
Skills: 2 + int mod
[tr][td]lvl[/td][td]bab[/td][td]Ref + Fort[/td][td]Will[/td][td]special[/td][/tr][tr][td]1[/td][td]+0[/td][td]+0[/td][td]+2[/td][td]+1 caster level in both preparing and spontanious spellcasting class[/td][/tr][tr][td]2[/td][td]+1[/td][td]+0[/td][td]+3[/td][td]+1 caster level in both preparing and spontanious spellcasting class[/td][/tr][tr][td]3[/td][td]+1[/td][td]+1[/td][td]+3[/td][td]+1 caster level in both preparing and spontanious spellcasting class[/td][/tr][tr][td]4[/td][td]+2[/td][td]+1[/td][td]+4[/td][td]+1 caster level in both preparing and spontanious spellcasting class[/td][/tr][tr][td]5[/td][td]+2[/td][td]+1[/td][td]+4[/td][td]+1 caster level in both preparing and spontanious spellcasting class[/td][/tr][tr][td]6[/td][td]+3[/td][td]+2[/td][td]+5[/td][td]+1 caster level in both preparing and spontanious spellcasting class[/td][/tr][tr][td]7[/td][td]+3[/td][td]+2[/td][td]+5[/td][td]+1 caster level in both preparing and spontanious spellcasting class[/td][/tr][tr][td]8[/td][td]+4[/td][td]+2[/td][td]+6[/td][td]+1 caster level in both preparing and spontanious spellcasting class[/td][/tr][tr][td]9[/td][td]+4[/td][td]+3[/td][td]+6[/td][td]+1 caster level in both preparing and spontanious spellcasting class[/td][/tr][tr][td]10[/td][td]+5[/td][td]+3[/td][td]+7[/td][td]+1 caster level in both preparing and spontanious spellcasting class[/td][/tr]
the +1 caster levels must be put into two different classes and they must ve the ones used to qualify for this prc. This also results in more spells known and spells per day

[Orion-the-G]

hm...I suppose it might work, clearly the one's it's really meant to appeal to are the sorcerer/wizard combos, and maybe fellas like warmage/wizard. I could possibly see a bard taking this, but not likely.

The prerequisites and skills are a little odd. Why toughness? and what exactly makes this class aligned with chaos?

course, you'll have to be 11th level to use it at all, so that's an impressive investment of prerequisites right there.

[InaVegt]

well toughness was something that i just thought that it would be nice, i can remove it and the chaos part was because i think being able to cast both prepared and spontanious spells is pretty chaotic

edit: and i don't see how you have to be 11th level

[Democratus]

Originally Posted by gijsstrider

edit: and i don't see how you have to be 11th level

I think the calculation was thus:
3rd level prepared spells - 5th level Wizard
3rd level spontaieous spells - 6th level Sorceror
Total: 11 levels

[InaVegt]

oops, meant 2nd level spells

[Orion-the-G]

a more appropraite feat prereq might be the 'spell preparation' feat. Let's the sorcerer or bard prepare a spell so they can metamagic it without penalty.

[InaVegt]

out of which source does it come?

[Orion-the-G]

believe it's in complete arcane, but that's probably not the first place it popped up.

[Tomada]

So... they have twice the spells?

maybe a little bit unbalanced, but maybe not.

Only if they abuse the already abusable persistent spell, quick spell and others to make use of several spells at a time

[InaVegt]

Originally Posted by Tomada

So... they have twice the spells?

maybe a little bit unbalanced, but maybe not.

Only if they abuse the already abusable persistent spell, quick spell and others to make use of several spells at a time

it's probably not more unbalance than the mystic theurge

edit: and i want it to be usable with people who only have the core rulebooks

[Tomada]

Originally Posted by gijsstrider

it's probably not more unbalance than the mystic theurge

edit: and i want it to be usable with people who only have the core rulebooks

The class itself is not the problem. But it expands the albuses that already are in place.

Think of all those muchkins out there that already muchkin out the wizard/sorcerer, and think they doing it with both... at the same time.


Now, a class that gives both Psionic and arcane/divine spellcasting... THAT would be HORRIBLY... WRONG!

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Originally Posted by Tomada

Now, a class that gives both Psionic and arcane/divine spellcasting... THAT would be HORRIBLY... WRONG!

Uh, you mean the Cerebremancer (Psionic + Arcane)? * It's right there in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

[douglas]

Originally Posted by Tomada

Now, a class that gives both Psionic and arcane/divine spellcasting... THAT would be HORRIBLY... WRONG!

You mean the Cerebremancer? What's so wrong about that? Or do you have the same complaint about Mystic Theurge?

[gnownek]

Given that the Cleric has turning, better HP and BAB this might signal that Divine spells are worth less than Sorcerer spells...so this PrC might seem a little too much.

Maybe you get 8 sorcerer and 8 wizard levels spread out over the 10 level series

+1 sorcerer and wizard
+1 sorcerer or wizard
+1 sorcerer and wizard
+1 to class not selected at level 2
+1 sorcerer and wizard
+1 sorcerer and wizard
+1 sorcerer or wizard
+1 sorcerer and wizard
+1 to class not selected at level 7
+1 sorcerer and wizard

[Orion-the-G]

And how could a wizard sorcerer be counted as munchkiny before? I mean I know they get a ton of selection of low level arcane spells, but D+D isn't the sort of game where it's that profitable to focus on your low level spells to the exclusion of your higher level ones. Unless there is some strategy I'm missing.

[Tomada]

Originally Posted by Shhalahr Windrider

Uh, you mean the Cerebremancer (Psionic + Arcane)? It's right there in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

Originally Posted by douglas

You mean the Cerebremancer? What's so wrong about that? Or do you have the same complaint about Mystic Theurge?

Yep, psionics in general are wrong, wrong wrong.

Bad and evil, they are!

[Xanosect]

I think you may want to include the word "arcane" in front of your spell requirements. I could take 1 level of sorceror, and 5 levels of druid. meet the skill requirements, and be able to cast 2nd level spells prepared(druid) and spontaneous (summon animal) then go apply the bonus casting to sorc and druid, or cleric and sorc, or cleric and druid. faster access to arcane heirophant (without counting towards animal companions)

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Originally Posted by Xanosect

I could take 1 level of sorceror, and 5 levels of druid. meet the skill requirements, and be able to cast 2nd level spells prepared(druid) and spontaneous (summon animal)...

That's a good point there. Of course, the usual phrasing is "ability to cast X spells without preparation." I think that is supposed to eliminate the above situation because the druid still has to prepare some other spell before he or she can spontaneously summon.

So perhaps the requirements should be:
"Ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells without preparation.
Ability to prepare 2nd level arcane spells from a spellbook."

As a pretty standard "Beefed Up Multiclass" PrC I do not see the need for either the Chaotic alignment or the contact with an outsider requirements. And the Toughness feat doesn't seem to be necessary for the concept either.

[WildBill]

Nice idea but I don't see it being too useful as a primary caster in a party. Mystic Theurge gets access to divine and arcane, which I see as more useful than having a poopton of arcane spells for a secondary caster. But in a party with a pure divine caster and another character who can act as a secondary divine, this could be a useful character.

[Tomada]

the thing, here, is that he could use a lot of metamagic feats (he has a LOT of spell slots, afterall).

and could abuse persistant, quick and other metamagics.

[InaVegt]

will remove the toughness/chaotic part then. know the planes won't work anymore than either so lemme think *picks phb* how about spell mastery as a prereq? and i'll make the know arcane 10

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Originally Posted by gijsstrider

how about spell mastery as a prereq?

Sounds good to me.

and i'll make the know arcane 10

Make sense. Minimum start is level seven anyway.

As for other skills to replace Knowledge (the planes), how about Spellcraft?

[InaVegt]

yeah, that's nice

[InaVegt]

Originally Posted by Shhalahr Windrider

Uh, you mean the Cerebremancer (Psionic + Arcane)? It's right there in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

Originally Posted by douglas

You mean the Cerebremancer? *What's so wrong about that? *Or do you have the same complaint about Mystic Theurge?

i think he meant a class with arcane + divine + psionics

[Orion-the-G]

Originally Posted by Tomada

the thing, here, is that he could use a lot of metamagic feats (he has a LOT of spell slots, afterall).

and could abuse persistant, quick and other metamagics.

How so? I don't know that he'd have any more spell slots than a sorcerer/divine spellcaster.

And how would he abuse them?

[SpiderBrigade]

i think he meant a class with arcane + divine + psionics

Egads, I hope no one ever creates such a thing. It would just be wrong. Not that the truly powergamey would use it, though - see below.

Regarding the hypothetical brokenness of the OPs class, I think it's not. Actually I think that aside from cool flavor it's not strong. What you get is lots of spells per day, and a good combination of flexibility on-the-fly with flexibility in situations where you can plan ahead. However, you're still limited to arcane only. In contrast, Mystic Theurge gets access to both arcane and divine magic.

Many people's initial reaction to the MT is that it must be horribly broken, since it gives you two full spell progressions at once. However you will be behind in caster level, and you run into serious MAD. Furthermore, you can still only cast one spell at a time, no matter how many you have per day.

I, too, am curious as to how this class could abuse Persistant spell/Quicken etc any more than a normal caster.

[kilos]

he'd have almost twice as many spell slots at any given time. that's how.

Yes, but none of those metamagics are really worth a higher slot. Chances are, a spell from the next level is better. The only time metamagics really become useful is when you can take the Automatics, at epic. By which point it's all gone to hell with broken-ness anyhow.