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Old 06-09-2009, 06:20 PM   Top  -  End  -  #1
Zaq
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Default My Experiences as a Truenamer

Heya. I'm gonna talk about my actual play experience as a by-the-book Truenamer here. This isn't really a "handbook" in the Gleemax sense, though I will be talking about what I've learned (and more importantly, am learning) works and doesn't work. The first post will be used to discuss generalities of the Truenamer, viewed through the lens of my actual experience. The second post will be used for specific discussions of what I've actually done in-game, giving real examples of what a Truenamer can and cannot do. I haven't decided what the third post will be for, but it'll come in handy some day, I'm sure.

So, let's start. The Truenamer, from Tome of Magic, is infamous for being, well, unusable. For those of you who don't know, it's a skill-based casting class, in that the success or failure of its spells (called "utterances") hinges on a skill roll. The problem is that the DC of affecting any creature with an utterance is 15 + (2xCR). See how it goes up by two per level? And remember how you can only put one more rank in a skill every level? Yeah. So it actually gets harder to use your abilities as you get stronger. Add in a few more stupid design decisions (the fact that using an utterance gets harder, adding 2 to the DC every time you use it per day, for instance, or the fact that the utterances tend to be nothing special in power) and you have a class that is almost universally regarded as a grade-A stinker. There are a few top-notch homebrew fixes for it (some, indeed, on this very forum), but the as-written class is underwhelming at best.

Generally speaking, I agree with this. I've spoken out against it quite loudly in the past, and I don't recant what I've said now. That said, recently I got a wild hair up my ass and decided I was going to try to play the class pretty much as written. The campaign is tenth level (higher than I've ever played before, in fact) and is still young and in progress, so I'll be updating my experiences as I go.

To make things easier, I'll be using and abusing spoiler tags. I hope you don't mind too much.

Vocabulary:
Spoiler


Basics of the Truenamer:
Spoiler


The Truenamer and Complete Champion:
Spoiler


Weaknesses of the Truenamer compared to other casters:
Spoiler


Strengths of the Truenamer compared to other casters:
Spoiler


Quickening Utterances: (If you read only one spoiler in this post, read this one.)
Spoiler



Protecting your investments:
Spoiler


What options does a Truenamer have?
Spoiler


So, when is a Truenamer viable?
Spoiler


What books do you need to make a good Truenamer?
Spoiler


The Item Familiar Question:
Spoiler


So, what CAN a Truenamer do?
Spoiler


What roles should the Truenamer not try to take?
Spoiler
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In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers ALL HAIL KING TORG!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
When you ask a question, and I respond with something about the Truenamer, it might be because I think it's the best answer. More likely, though, is that I'm saying it because no one else will.

Last edited by Zaq : 06-11-2009 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 06-09-2009, 06:21 PM   Top  -  End  -  #2
Zaq
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

This post will be used to discuss my firsthand experiences with Truenaming, and will be much more specific, as opposed to the general discussions in the previous post.

My character, the fluff (short version):
Spoiler


My character, the crunch:
Spoiler


On Competence Items:
Spoiler


Early Experiences:
Spoiler


My utterances known, and my thoughts on them:
Spoiler


Some specific, direct-from-experience comments:
Spoiler


A few more notes from the front
Spoiler


Spell Rebirth
Spoiler


The Chips Are Down: How a Truenamer fares in a boss battle (UPDATE 2 Oct 2009)
Spoiler
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In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers ALL HAIL KING TORG!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
When you ask a question, and I respond with something about the Truenamer, it might be because I think it's the best answer. More likely, though, is that I'm saying it because no one else will.

Last edited by Zaq : 10-02-2009 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 06-09-2009, 06:22 PM   Top  -  End  -  #3
Zaq
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

This final post will be more or less a summary. I expect it to change over time, of course.

I chose to play a Truenamer basically as a challenge to myself, to prove that I could. The Truenamer is still a terrible class, a flawed concept. I've had a lot of hoops to jump through to make the character even as good as it is (not that Sanden is playing at a 100% optimized level, but that's not the point)... as Sstoopidtallkid succinctly put it,

"He has taken an odd race, 2 +10 magic items(meaning a significant chunk of his WBL), and used an association from CChamp to become effective, and he's still having issues during play. [. . .] Yeah, he's having fun with it, and it's working out well, but that is in spite of the class, not because of it."

I really couldn't have said it better. I'm playing a Truenamer more or less in spite of it. My character is pulling his weight and is a useful member of the party, and absolutely the only thing I'm using that's not 100% by-the-book is a +10 competence item, which, as I've stated, is enormously helpful but not strictly necessary.

So, does this mean that the Truenamer is a viable class?

Well, really, I would say no. I've managed to make it sort of work, but it's really not a viable class if you have to put in as much effort as I have and still get only average results. If you don't bend over backwards like I have, you basically won't even be able to contribute to the party. If you want to play a Truenamer, well, I hope you like playing more or less what I've described here, since that's pretty much what you'll have to do.

Just because a single effective build can be made does not mean that the class actually works.

Truenamer doesn't work.

But still, here I am, playing a Truenamer, probably experiencing it more than WotC did when they wrote Tome of Magic. I feel, on some level, like it's my duty to share my experience with you folks.

If there's anything else you want to know about my experience, please, go ahead and ask.

A condensed assessment of the problems facing the Truenamer, for your quick reference (Added 27 Dec 09)
Spoiler


A final word (Added 27 Dec 09)
Spoiler


Two really final things to say:

First, my word is not absolute. I know a lot about Truenamers, but I am not infallible. I welcome well-reasoned disagreements with open arms.

Second, if anyone wants to know anything else, has any questions, or wants to know my opinion on anything related to this, please do not hesitate to ask. The whole reason I've typed up this enormous topic is to share what I've learned, so if I can share more, I'd like to know.

Thanks for reading.
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In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers ALL HAIL KING TORG!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
When you ask a question, and I respond with something about the Truenamer, it might be because I think it's the best answer. More likely, though, is that I'm saying it because no one else will.

Last edited by Zaq : 12-27-2009 at 01:54 AM.
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Old 06-09-2009, 06:30 PM   Top  -  End  -  #4
Lert, A.
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
And another post for me. I doubt I'll need more than three, so go ahead and post after this.
OK. The class is overpowered!!!
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Old 06-09-2009, 06:38 PM   Top  -  End  -  #5
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

Photoshopped. Totally photoshopped. I can see the pixels.
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Old 06-09-2009, 06:43 PM   Top  -  End  -  #6
ZeroNumerous
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

My only question for the OP: Why not just write out your experiences before hand in, say, Word then copy/paste into your posts?
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Old 06-09-2009, 07:10 PM   Top  -  End  -  #7
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

I once played a Blue (psychic goblin) Truenamer once. Really, I think the negative reaction they typically receive is a bit over the top. They really aren't that bad.

With an 18 INT, an amulet of the Silver Tongue +5, Skill Focus (truespeak), and Focused Skill User (2 other skills, plus truespeak; from Complete Psionic, a feat that gives a +2 to three specific skills as long as one is psionically focused), my truenamer was pretty much automatically succeeded on his checks for the first four or five uses of a single utterance.

He was level 5, granted, but he did a good job of healing, buffing, debuffing, and even doing decent damage with reversed words of nurturing. Overall, I was actually rather impressed. He had no spell slots or power points to worry about. I just put down a little check every time he used the same utterance, to remind myself of the +2 increase to the skill check DC.

Also, since they have UMD as a class skill, you can grab some wands and other toys to help keep yourself useful when the utterance DC's get a little dicey.

No, they are not as powerful as a standard core caster, or even a psion, but I'd put them on about the same power level as a warlock, or perhaps an Incarnate, assuming the adventure doesn't really tax endurance to the extreme.
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Old 06-09-2009, 07:19 PM   Top  -  End  -  #8
The Glyphstone
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

At level 5, maybe. The reason the Truenamer is so reviled is that fact that unlock core casters, warlocks, fighters, rogues, CW Samurai, or any other class, they actually get worse as they level, not better. 5th level is a very good time to be a truenamer...the DCs aren't intolerable yet, and you've just acquired an incantation from the second of your three lexicons.
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Old 06-09-2009, 07:49 PM   Top  -  End  -  #9
quick_comment
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

I really like the fluff of the truenamer, but I really would rather just see it replace the current magic fluff. Wizard of Earthsea had a system like that.
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Old 06-09-2009, 07:54 PM   Top  -  End  -  #10
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

Quote:
Originally Posted by quick_comment View Post
I really like the fluff of the truenamer, but I really would rather just see it replace the current magic fluff. Wizard of Earthsea had a system like that.
And they spent most of the books either following people who could barely use it or when it all died and nobody had magic anyways.

Anyways, Truenamers with their 3/4 BAB make decent gishes...if you have a stat left over after that INT, toss it into STR and take up the sword.

There was a chart on CharOp that showed Truenamer success chances...you're going to start rapidly getting worse, but after a few levels your chances start going up. Get an Item Familiar, you'll need its bonuses. Refluff your Amulet of the Silver Tongue as actually talking that way, it'll be hilarious.
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Old 06-09-2009, 08:46 PM   Top  -  End  -  #11
Zaq
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

Righto, so I've got the initial posts up. ZeroNumerous, that might have been a more elegant way of doing it, but I guess I just didn't think of it. Oh well.

Anyway, thoughts, anyone?
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In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers ALL HAIL KING TORG!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
When you ask a question, and I respond with something about the Truenamer, it might be because I think it's the best answer. More likely, though, is that I'm saying it because no one else will.
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Old 06-09-2009, 09:15 PM   Top  -  End  -  #12
Flickerdart
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

Looking good so far. I've always loved Truenamers, and your flavour is great for using one. How'd you take Human Paragon as an Illumian, though? Do they count?

At +53, that's 63 on an average roll, against DC 45 for an enemy of your CR. Even quickened, your first Utterance of the kind for the day has a 40% chance, and regular is 100% for several tries. This'll be nice to see, indeed.

For thematic convenience, get some scrolls of Moment of Prescience. It's DC45 UMD for the max bonus, so it'll be a while yet before you're hitting that (if you took UMD to begin with) but it's a great "I must succeed!" trick even if it isn't very practical.
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Frankly, a Wizard can suck even more than a Fighter could ever dream of sucking. A Fighter can stab himself to death, but only a Wizard could Plane Shift to some horrible far realm to be tortured for an eternity of insanity.

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Old 06-09-2009, 09:25 PM   Top  -  End  -  #13
Zaq
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

Thanks Flickerdart. I figured that since Illumians are Humanoid with the Human subtype, they qualified for Human paragon, and my DM agreed. I'm probably losing more than I'm gaining from the class (which is one reason I'm not actually recommending it for aspiring Truenamers), but I wanted to have some more skills, you know? Balance, Sense Motive, Listen, that kind of thing.

Your math is a bit off. Against a CR 10 foe, the DC is 35 (15 + 10x2). Even against a CR 15 foe (DC 45) I have a decent chance of quickening.

One thing I'm really noticing, though, is that since utterances have such damn short durations, you have to keep refreshing them if you want them active, which makes the Law of Resistance really add up. After another session or two I'll post some thoughts about when to utter and when to refrain from doing so.
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In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers ALL HAIL KING TORG!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
When you ask a question, and I respond with something about the Truenamer, it might be because I think it's the best answer. More likely, though, is that I'm saying it because no one else will.
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Old 06-09-2009, 09:35 PM   Top  -  End  -  #14
Flickerdart
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
Your math is a bit off. Against a CR 10 foe, the DC is 35 (15 + 10x2). Even against a CR 15 foe (DC 45) I have a decent chance of quickening.

One thing I'm really noticing, though, is that since utterances have such damn short durations, you have to keep refreshing them if you want them active, which makes the Law of Resistance really add up. After another session or two I'll post some thoughts about when to utter and when to refrain from doing so.
Ah, right, my bad. I was counting for 15, not 10...well, if your DM springs some crazy boss monsters on you, you'll do fine too.

Since talking normally is a free action, you could throw your enemies off guard by muttering gibberish on turns you're not uttering, to confuse them. After all, how do they know you didn't just do something?
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Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
Frankly, a Wizard can suck even more than a Fighter could ever dream of sucking. A Fighter can stab himself to death, but only a Wizard could Plane Shift to some horrible far realm to be tortured for an eternity of insanity.

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Old 06-09-2009, 09:38 PM   Top  -  End  -  #15
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

Quote:
Originally Posted by CockroachTeaParty View Post
I once played a Blue (psychic goblin) Truenamer once. Really, I think the negative reaction they typically receive is a bit over the top. They really aren't that bad.
It was mostly the opinion of the powergamers/munchkins. To them, if a build isn't able to theoritically slaughter singlehandely every monster of their own CR as a swift action, then it's clearly a worthless piece of poop and no player could ever have fun playing it.

And then there are the players to wich power isn't everything, and are willing to play a class even if it isn't "Pwn everything roflz is the wayz to goz!".

I'm glad to meet some of these players. Keep enjoying your sessions!

(I'm always impressed that people are willing to optimize dozens of spells, feats and prc for their wizards, but they don't seem to be able to optimize half a dozen items wich all do the same thing)

Last edited by Oslecamo : 06-09-2009 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 06-09-2009, 09:53 PM   Top  -  End  -  #16
Sstoopidtallkid
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
It was mostly the opinion of the powergamers/munchkins. To them, if a build isn't able to theoritically slaughter singlehandely every monster of their own CR as a swift action, then it's clearly a worthless piece of poop and no player could ever have fun playing it.

And then there are the players to wich power isn't everything, and are willing to play a class even if it isn't "Pwn everything roflz is the wayz to goz!".
He has taken an odd race, 2 +10 magic items(meaning a significant chunk of his WBL), and used an association from CChamp to become effective, and he's still having issues during play. The class should be able to function on it's own, with minimal needed input. Most classes become good with a bit of work, and especially with a few sources. This one is using one of the most broken sources in 3.x and it's barely decent. Yeah, he's having fun with it, and it's working out well, but that is in spite of the class, not because of it, which is an issue with the class. There's a reason it doesn't even get a tier.
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Old 06-09-2009, 09:53 PM   Top  -  End  -  #17
Eldariel
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
It was mostly the opinion of the powergamers/munchkins. To them, if a build isn't able to theoritically slaughter singlehandely every monster of their own CR as a swift action, then it's clearly a worthless piece of poop and no player could ever have fun playing it.
Eh, you aren't being serious on your powergamer-comment, are you? The problem with Truenamer in particular is that it's a helluva lot of work to hit the DCs. Out of the box, at level 1, the average DC is 17. Assuming 18 Int and Skill Focus, that's 45% chance to do nothing each turn. And that's burning a bunch of resources already.

Basically, the problem people have with the class is that you need to go through a lot of trouble to make the DCs, and when you do, you don't get anything amazing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
(I'm always impressed that people are willing to optimize dozens of spells, feats and prc for their wizards, but they don't seem to be able to optimize half a dozen items wich all do the same thing)
It's not a matter of not being able to, it's just that that's an awful lot of trouble to get...nothing you couldn't already do with any of the Core classes. And the fact that having to devote a ton of your resources just to be able to do what you're supposed to do kinda sucks. I mean, sure, if that floats your boat, go ahead, but I'd rather have my classes do what they're supposed to do without any feats or skills, and focus my feats and skills on customizing my character.


That said, if you enjoyed your run with the Truenamer, the more power to you. I'll be reading this with great interest.
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Last edited by Eldariel : 06-09-2009 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 06-09-2009, 09:55 PM   Top  -  End  -  #18
The Glyphstone
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

Indeed - I like seeing people being able to salvage/redeem otherwise horrid ideas, so this could be quite interesting watching it play out.
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Old 06-09-2009, 11:28 PM   Top  -  End  -  #19
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

In my current game I foresee a possible death for my PC. Looking into this I would like to try a True Namer. Any tips for a level 4 Gestalt player?
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Old 06-09-2009, 11:28 PM   Top  -  End  -  #20
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

I've added some thoughts on the Truenamer's class features, options a Truenamer has, a brief discussion on Item Familiars, and cleaned up a few small details in some other sections.

What else should I be adding, any thoughts?

I'd also, as I mention in the relevant sections, appreciate some counterpoints on certain aspects of my discussion, if anyone disagrees with me strongly enough to write them. (No need to disagree for the sake of disagreeing, of course... if you think what I've said is spot-on, great. I just don't want to set myself up as the ONE AND ONLY MASTER OF ALL THINGS TRUENAMER, since that's patently false and ridiculous. Discussion is good.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
When you ask a question, and I respond with something about the Truenamer, it might be because I think it's the best answer. More likely, though, is that I'm saying it because no one else will.
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Old 06-09-2009, 11:40 PM   Top  -  End  -  #21
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

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Originally Posted by Demons_eye View Post
In my current game I foresee a possible death for my PC. Looking into this I would like to try a True Namer. Any tips for a level 4 Gestalt player?
What else is in your party? Truenamer is an even worse idea in Gestalt than in normal play, but maybe if the rest of your party is weak combos we can make it playable.
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Old 06-09-2009, 11:43 PM   Top  -  End  -  #22
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What else is in your party? Truenamer is an even worse idea in Gestalt than in normal play, but maybe if the rest of your party is weak combos we can make it playable.
Wow that was unbelievably unhelpful
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Old 06-09-2009, 11:50 PM   Top  -  End  -  #23
Zaq
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demons_eye View Post
In my current game I foresee a possible death for my PC. Looking into this I would like to try a True Namer. Any tips for a level 4 Gestalt player?
That really depends on whether you want your Truenamer side to be your dominant side (using your other class mostly to support it), or if you want it to play more of a support role.

If you want to prop up your Truenamer side, Artificer might be a decent choice, since the infusions that add bonuses to skills are invaluable. Archivist might be a decent choice, since the knowledge-heavy nature of both classes synergizes very well, and there are a few good divine spells to boost skill checks. You would also be able to use the Truename Spells tucked away in a corner of the Truename Magic chapter, many of which are pretty decent. Whatever class you choose, though, make sure you have INT synergy.

The best choice might be a Factotum, though. Both classes use INT, and the Factotum has tricks to boost your skill checks when you need them. Some of the more generic boosts that Truenamers get, such as Universal Aptitude, will fit perfectly with the Factotum's strengths, as well. Hell, even the normally terrible Recitation of the Mindful State isn't QUITE as bad when you have the relevant skills as class skills.

If you want your Truenamer side to be the secondary focus, that's a bit trickier, since you have to invest so much into Truenaming to make it worthwhile. I can see the Truenamer being a capable self-buffing gish, especially once you hit level 9 and can Quicken your utterances (that's five levels away, to be sure, but worth considering I suppose). The danger with playing a Truenamer in gestalt is that the Truenamer makes a lot of demands upon your standard actions, and offers no long-lasting or passive benefits. It takes a lot of attention, in other words.

Does that help?
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Old 06-09-2009, 11:54 PM   Top  -  End  -  #24
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Wow that was unbelievably unhelpful
If he's in a party with a Wizard/Factotum, Warblade/Artificer, Rogue/Barbarian, and Warlock/Swift Hunter, we can't help him. If he's in a party with a significant party role missing, we can help him fill that role with his other side and keep decent Truespeach at the same time.

The problem is that Gestalt rewards builds with one side that requires actions to accomplish something, and one side with passive abilities that synergize well with the first side. Until 9th, Truenamer fits neither of those. Meaning we need to get one side of his build good enough to remain competitive with his party, while also keeping him able to hit DCs of 23 at level 4, enabling him to buff/debuff to aid his primary side, while we can't invest the usual 3 feats and massive amounts of cash needed for a Truenamer.

Edit:Hadn't considered Factotum. Yes. That could work. Pump Int, get everything you can to boost the skill, snag the various other good skills(Autohypnosis etc), and pick the right SLAs. If nothing else, you'll always have something to do even when you don't want to waste an utterance.
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Old 06-09-2009, 11:54 PM   Top  -  End  -  #25
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

Greatly I was all ready thinking Artificer but Archivist is looking nice now I have looked into it.
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Old 06-10-2009, 12:53 AM   Top  -  End  -  #26
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

Your little article here is a very good write-up, I think. I've always LOVED the idea of the Truenamer class, but every time I look at the book I just shake my head and go on to something else. I'm still with Sstoopidtallkid when he says you've "taken an odd race, 2 +10 magic items(meaning a significant chunk of his WBL), and used an association from CChamp to become effective, and he's still having issues during play," but I think you've at least shown that you can do okay without resorting to an Item Familiar and all that.

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Old 06-10-2009, 01:35 AM   Top  -  End  -  #27
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Default Re: My Experiences as a Truenamer

On the subject of protecting a super-important item: Clasp of Safeguarding from Dungeonscape should be a staple for almost any high-level character.
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Old 06-10-2009, 01:54 AM   Top  -  End  -  #28
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I suggest something even stranger. Create your items as a Graft. This takes more work (people with the Create Graft feat are rare), but makes it part of your character. You can't lose it, and it only doubles the price.

Then there's the flavor. Why have an Amulet of the Silver Tongue when you can just have a Silver Tongue?
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Old 06-10-2009, 02:03 AM   Top  -  End  -  #29
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I suggest something even stranger. Create your items as a Graft. This takes more work (people with the Create Graft feat are rare), but makes it part of your character. You can't lose it, and it only doubles the price.

Then there's the flavor. Why have an Amulet of the Silver Tongue when you can just have a Silver Tongue?
This sounds like an interesting idea, but how do you do it? I looked at the graft flesh feat and info about grafts, but it just lists a bunch of them without giving information on how to go about designing custom grafts or adapting items into grafts.
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Old 06-10-2009, 02:10 AM   Top  -  End  -  #30
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This sounds like an interesting idea, but how do you do it? I looked at the graft flesh feat and info about grafts, but it just lists a bunch of them without giving information on how to go about designing custom grafts or adapting items into grafts.
You do it the same way you make any other non-standard item: Homebrew. See, we have the origional item itself, which is decidedly non-broken. Then we have the general guideline for grafts (it's not given, but reverse engineering has shown that they stay pretty close to twice the cost of a normal magic item that could do the same thing). Putting the two together gives us the double costed, but unlosable Silver Tongue.

Depending on which Graft Flesh feats you have access to, I recomend putting it in the Silithar, Warforged, or that other type of construct graft availible (I forget their name), but making a graft from the tongue of a Logokron Devil would work for a Fiendish graft.
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