[4e] Viper Fang Disciple (Paragon Path)

[Gralamin]

Viper Fang Disciple

Prerequisites: 11th level, Poisoner (Dragon 373)

You focus in Poison. You may even serve Zehir. (More fluff goes here)

Viper Fang Disciple Features
Sidewinder Action (11th level): When you spend an action point to make an attack with a poisoned weapon, you gain a bonus to the attack roll equal to your dexterity or intelligence modifier. This bonus applies to both the attack with the weapon, and the poison attack.
Poison Maker (11th level): You gain the ability to make poisons. The Cost to make the poison is equal to the cost to buy it. In addition, you can use existing poisons as components, subtracting their value from the cost to make it. Any Value om excess of the new item's component cost is wasted.
Venom Master (16th level): You gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls with poisons.

Viper Fang Disciple Powers
Quick Application Viper Fang Disciple Attack 11
You quickly apply the poison to a weapon before striking.
Encounter ♦
Minor Action Personal
Effect: You apply a poison to a weapon without spending its required action (Usually a standard).

Deadly Poison Viper Fang Disciple Utility 12
As the poison seeps into your opponents wounds, the secret ingredient activates.
Encounter ♦
Free Action Close burst 40
Trigger: You hit someone with a poison.
Target: Creature hit with poison
Effect: The Target takes a -2 on Saving Throws against that poison.

Cobra's Poison Viper Fang Disciple Attack 20
As the foe is pricked, their ability to fight back fades away.
Daily ♦ Poison, Weapon
Standard Action Melee or Ranged weapon
Target: One Creature in weapon range
Attack: Dex or Int vs Fort
Hit: 2[W]+Dex or Int poison damage. In addition, The target gains 10 Ongoing Poison damage (Save ends), and is immobilized (Save ends)
First Failed Save (Immobilize): Target is stunned instead (Save ends).
First Failed Save (Ongoing): Target takes 20 Ongoing Poison damage instead (Save ends).
Miss: Half damage, and the target takes 5 ongoing poison damage (save ends), and is slowed (save ends)

[Shadow_Elf]

I like it. The level 11 "attack" needs work though. That power is clearly and solidly in utility territory. I would chose between that utility and the one slated for level 12, and then put an actual attack in there. Otherwise, looks good. I can't see any glaring or obvious balance issues.

[Apalala]

Not bad. The encounter attack is clearly a utility, as said.

Also, you might want to take a look at the poisoner multiclass from Dragon 373.

[Mando Knight]

Originally Posted by Apalala

Also, you might want to take a look at the poisoner multiclass from Dragon 373.

He did. It's a prerequisite to this Paragon Path.

[Apalala]

Originally Posted by Mando Knight

He did. It's a prerequisite to this Paragon Path.

I facepalm at my own idiocy then.

[Gralamin]

Originally Posted by Shadow_Elf

I like it. The level 11 "attack" needs work though. That power is clearly and solidly in utility territory. I would chose between that utility and the one slated for level 12, and then put an actual attack in there. Otherwise, looks good. I can't see any glaring or obvious balance issues.

Its actually almost a direct Grab and change from the Alchemist Savant in Eberron. In fact, most of this Paragon Path is

Thanks for the comments.

[Ninetail]

Seems a little weak, actually. Ability to make poisons just isn't up to the standard of many paragon path class features. I'd say it deserves a second class feature at that level.

Considering the widespread incidence of immunity to poison, I'd favor something like:

Potent Venom (11th level): You ignore up to 5 points of your target's poison resistance, and you treat a target with immunity to poison as having resist poison 20 instead.

Heck, you could even ramp up the ignore-resistance part to 10 at epic tier.

[Gralamin]

Originally Posted by Ninetail

Seems a little weak, actually. Ability to make poisons just isn't up to the standard of many paragon path class features. I'd say it deserves a second class feature at that level.

Considering the widespread incidence of immunity to poison, I'd favor something like:

Potent Venom (11th level): You ignore up to 5 points of your target's poison resistance, and you treat a target with immunity to poison as having resist poison 20 instead.

Heck, you could even ramp up the ignore-resistance part to 10 at epic tier.

Poisoner feat already gives that, but better.

[erikun]

Well, I have no clue what Poisoner does, but here's a recommended alternative to the 11th level power.

Venom Hurl Viper Fang Disciple Attack 11
You fling a dose of poison directly into your opponent's face.
Encounter ♦ Standard Action - Blast 3
Target: One creature in Blast
Attack: The poison's attack value (or Dex +4, if poisons don't have an attack)
Hit: The target is affected by the poison, as if you had struck them with a poisoned weapon.
(Special: Increase the Attack to Dex +6 at level 21.)

I'd probably make "Apply Poison as a move action" into a 12th level ability, rather than a seperate power.

[Gralamin]

Originally Posted by erikun

Well, I have no clue what Poisoner does, but here's a recommended alternative to the 11th level power.

Venom Hurl Viper Fang Disciple Attack 11
You fling a dose of poison directly into your opponent's face.
Encounter ♦ Standard Action - Blast 3
Target: One creature in Blast
Attack: The poison's attack value (or Dex +4, if poisons don't have an attack)
Hit: The target is affected by the poison, as if you had struck them with a poisoned weapon.
(Special: Increase the Attack to Dex +6 at level 21.)

I'd probably make "Apply Poison as a move action" into a 12th level ability, rather than a seperate power.

Poisons tend to be put onto weapons, and give the weapon a secondary attack. Thus the encounter power is basically "Your next attack that hits has a free action attack when you hit." Seems much more appropriate to me, honestly.

The idea of a throwing a poison in someones face is alright, but there are numerous things wrong with your sample power.

First you have it as a blast that targets one creature... Why not just have it a burst? Why force the step of choosing the direction? In addition, it looks like you don't know the poison rules, so attacking one person with poison, and giving them effectively two attack rolls needed to hit with poison, without at least the weapon damage, makes this an all together weak power.

[RTGoodman]

I think the whole confusion about the Level 11 encounter power could be solved by just making it the following.

Quick Poisoner ........................ Viper Fang Disciple 11
You dip your weapon in poison and attack your prey in one
swift motion.
Encounter ♦ Martial, Poison, Weapon
Standard Action ....... Melee or Ranged weapon
Target: One creature
Special: You may apply one poison to your weapon as a
free action before making the attack roll.
Attack: Dexterity or Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity or Intelligence modifier damage.


You might could add in something like "The target takes a -2 penalty to defenses against the poison you applied as part of this attack," but it's not necessary.

[Shadow_Elf]

The reason the Alchemist's Savant's level 11 power with similar wording is an attack power is because, IIRC, it allows them to use the Alchemical Item, often an attack in its own right, as a minor action, therefore giving them an extra "attack". That is the difference.

[Gralamin]

Originally Posted by Shadow_Elf

The reason the Alchemist's Savant's level 11 power with similar wording is an attack power is because, IIRC, it allows them to use the Alchemical Item, often an attack in its own right, as a minor action, therefore giving them an extra "attack". That is the difference.

The difference between using an alchemical item immediately, thereby giving you an extra attack, and using a poison, thereby giving you an extra attack when you hit is pretty small.

Originally Posted by rtg0922

I think the whole confusion about the Level 11 encounter power could be solved by just making it the following.

Quick Poisoner ........................ Viper Fang Disciple 11
You dip your weapon in poison and attack your prey in one
swift motion.
Encounter ♦ Martial, Poison, Weapon
Standard Action ....... Melee or Ranged weapon
Target: One creature
Special: You may apply one poison to your weapon as a
free action before making the attack roll.
Attack: Dexterity or Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity or Intelligence modifier damage.


You might could add in something like "The target takes a -2 penalty to defenses against the poison you applied as part of this attack," but it's not necessary.

I might use this... I'll decide after my Game today.