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Old 11-07-2009, 01:05 PM   Top  -  End  -  #1
Xallace
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Default v3.5 Race Remix! (Latest Race: Shifters)

I'm a little dissatisfied with how races are in Dungeons and Dragons v3.5. Half of their racial features are cultural benefits (and are stated as such), some abilities just don't make much sense (lookin' at you, Detect Secret Doors), and ability score penalties feel more like "Creativity Penalties."

So, I had a new idea. Each of these "remixed" races provide a couple of stat boosts, have some more "genetic" abilities, and each come with at least one flaw that should affect them, no matter the class. The first Spoiler will be the racial features, the second will be my thoughts and design notes on the matter.

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Old 11-07-2009, 01:13 PM   Top  -  End  -  #2
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

I haven't read them all yet, but an elf is ridiculously easy to cripple. Just get a hit in and the elf won't be able to flee enough that you couldn't be on his tail in a second and hit again. Rinse, Repeat.
They couldn't function as warriors at all.
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Old 11-07-2009, 01:29 PM   Top  -  End  -  #3
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

Frog's right - the elf drawback is utterly crippling.

They also don't really get much in exchange for it - in the very least give them a snowball's chance of pulling off "not actually being hit".

I'd suggest giving all elves Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat and offering a racial feat allowing them to use attacks of opportunity to dodge or block attacks. That way, they would at least be on the same terms as everyone else, despite spending half a round crying every time they suffer anything more than a papercut.
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Old 11-07-2009, 01:43 PM   Top  -  End  -  #4
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

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Originally Posted by Frog Dragon View Post
I haven't read them all yet, but an elf is ridiculously easy to cripple. Just get a hit in and the elf won't be able to flee enough that you couldn't be on his tail in a second and hit again. Rinse, Repeat.
They couldn't function as warriors at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lesser_minion
Frog's right - the elf drawback is utterly crippling.

They also don't really get much in exchange for it - in the very least give them a snowball's chance of pulling off "not actually being hit".

I'd suggest giving all elves Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat and offering a racial feat allowing them to use attacks of opportunity to dodge or block attacks. That way, they would at least be on the same terms as everyone else, despite spending half a round crying every time they suffer anything more than a papercut.
Hmm... well, I also could up the damage threshold (Con + Y, Con x Y?), or grant them some nice Ref/AC boosts (in addition to the Dex boost. +X Dodge Bonus for moving Y feet?). Though Combat Reflexes doesn't seem to be too far-fetched, given the elven focus on speed.
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Old 11-07-2009, 01:53 PM   Top  -  End  -  #5
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

Also. About the halfling. I'd have the Social creatures ability trigger only after being seperate for a while so you don't take immediate penalties.
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Old 11-07-2009, 01:59 PM   Top  -  End  -  #6
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confused Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

Like what you've done so far, although I agree with what has been said regarding the elven and halfling penalties.
Can't wait to see what you come up with for goblins...
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Old 11-07-2009, 02:29 PM   Top  -  End  -  #7
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

Elven Fragile flaw increased to 2xCon damage, added Combat Reflexes to Combat Finesse. Halflings gained Group Tactics ability and flaw requires at least a 3-round gap (wasn't sure how long y'all were thinking).

EDIT: Stability added to dwarves, Hide to Survive added to Drow.
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Old 11-07-2009, 03:16 PM   Top  -  End  -  #8
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

Quick review:

Humans look fine, although, you should mention if the mandatory human flaw counts towards the number of flaws a character can take for bonus feats.

Remove light sensitivity from dwarves. Auto-daze for something as cheap and easy as daylight is painful. The jumbo list of miscellaneous racial abilities weren't too good to begin with, just kind of there. Enduring is nice, though.

The free feats and enhanced senses are nice for elves, but Fragile is crippling. If you're going high point buy or someone happens to get really lucky rolls, an elf might have a 16 Con. By 4th level, a full attack from a [urlhttp://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearPolar.htm]bear[/url] could ruin their day. At higher levels, this only gets worse, because HP and damage scale faster than your constitution bonus.

For the Gnomes, quick learner is rather underwhelming. "So, I fail a save versus domination, that's going to come in handy later..." Admittedly, this is slightly better for things like breath weapons, but not enough to really warrant a racial ability. Patterned scanning is basically Quick Reconnoiter for free, replacing the initiative bonuses for the ability to use Int on perception based skills. Forcing Gnomes to never take 20, although limited, can hurt. Straight up removing options is generally a bad thing. Applying a penalty, less so.

Halflings are okay, save for their racial flaw. Being away from someone for three rounds and they already start to break down and cry due to psychological damage? Either there need to be separate durations for combat and out of combat, or the ability needs to be changed so Halflings don't get jittery when the party asks them to scout ahead.

Orcs seem fine. They've got a non-ability with brawny, but everything else is fine till we hit adrenaline. Being immune to HP damage is very nice, especially when there are several tricks out there thanks to Incarnum, Soulbinding, and other random magical oddities that can help mitigate at least one point of constitution damage around, which means orcs can effectively have NI HPs foreverty. Either throw a round timer on it or change how their HP works under a state of adrenaline.

The Drow abilities are honestly lack-luster. Attacking from stealth is good for maybe one attack barring tricks (read: magic) to get it back during combat. Also, Light Sensitivity hurts. Bad.



I must say, I like the idea of giving various races some sort of innate penalty, but most of these slam down too hard, especially when removing many of the conditional racial bonuses.
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Old 11-07-2009, 03:28 PM   Top  -  End  -  #9
Xallace
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

*Cough* Dazed should be "blinded" in the dwarf and drow descriptions. My bad.

There's got to be a way to implement a sense of fragility in elves without crippling every elf forever.

I was considering Quick Learner applying to the gnome's attack rolls, too. As in, if the gnome misses, +1 on attack rolls against the enemy up to Int bonus.

I originally typed "6 hours" on the halfling flaw, then thought "Nah, that won't come into play at all." Seperate durations seems the way to go.

Should I buff Brawny?
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Old 11-07-2009, 03:47 PM   Top  -  End  -  #10
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

Maybe an hour on the halfling flaw?
Also maybe just give the elves minuses to actions due to their body being less able to deal with pain?
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Old 11-07-2009, 04:00 PM   Top  -  End  -  #11
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

Quote:
and ability score penalties feel more like "Creativity Penalties."
You mean the fact that it would be strongly discouraged to make a half-orc sorcerer or wizard?
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Old 11-07-2009, 04:06 PM   Top  -  End  -  #12
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

Bear in mind that the "Elves are fragile" thing is actually a fairly recent invention, and basically originated solely through D&D and the belief that it was needed for game balance.

Going entirely based on Tolkien's "elves don't grow old or tired" thing, a Con bonus would have been justified.

Elves are quite small in D&D, and generally emphasise finesse over brute force - try giving them a strength-related drawback.

That would work pretty well, because elves would still be good fighters with the right benefits, but would still have trouble in certain situations.
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Old 11-07-2009, 04:37 PM   Top  -  End  -  #13
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

Clarified if human flaw counts against 2 flaw limit (it doesn't), changed elven flaw, updated halfling flaw (3 hour grace period outside of stressful situations, such as combat), updated and added drow racial abilities.

Still workin' on them gnomes and orcs.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DracoDei
You mean the fact that it would be strongly discouraged to make a half-orc sorcerer or wizard?
Or dwarf bard, elf anything. Yeah.

EDIT DEUX: Changed Brawny and Adrenaline on the orc.
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Old 11-08-2009, 05:40 AM   Top  -  End  -  #14
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

Elf feels overpowered to me right now.

Two bonus feats, effectively, 35' base speed, a nice bonus to spot and listen, a decent bonus to climb / swim / jump, all in exchange for... -4 to sunder and overrun (which no one uses - can you even overrun without a mount?), bull rush (which a dex fighter doesn't do anyways), and grapple (which you'd lose anyways)?


Really. Apply any other class that isn't a melee fighter (rogue, caster, archer, all sorts of non-core goodies) and elves come out BROKEN. I, unfortunately, am not creative right now and can't suggest how to fix it.


For halflings, I feel the opposite problem. As you noted, they don't really seem to have anything going for them. They can diplomancer like mad now, but who really plays that? You also basically alienated the archetypal 'halfling rogue' which has been in fantasy settings for forever. I'd suggest you allow them to get over it after a certain period of time (X rounds in combat, or a couple days by themselves and they stop having a breakdown?).

Either way, some sort of nice 'we're small and we know how to use it' ability might help you round them up, be it defensive or offensive.

For gnomes, I'd agree that the Quick Learner on attack rolls wouldn't be broken. Every miss = cumulative +1 bonus on that one target would not be terribly broken. Maybe - maybe - make it so that it only applies to the attack form you made. So a touch spell only gains the bonus to touch spells, ranged attacks only to ranged attacks, melee attacks only to melee attacks, rays only to rays, etc. This prevents the gnome wizard from wasting a few rounds with slings to make sure his spells hits.
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Old 11-08-2009, 06:32 AM   Top  -  End  -  #15
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSED View Post
Elf feels overpowered to me right now.

Two bonus feats, effectively, 35' base speed, a nice bonus to spot and listen, a decent bonus to climb / swim / jump, all in exchange for... -4 to sunder and overrun (which no one uses - can you even overrun without a mount?), bull rush (which a dex fighter doesn't do anyways), and grapple (which you'd lose anyways)?


Really. Apply any other class that isn't a melee fighter (rogue, caster, archer, all sorts of non-core goodies) and elves come out BROKEN. I, unfortunately, am not creative right now and can't suggest how to fix it.

---

Either way, some sort of nice 'we're small and we know how to use it' ability might help you round them up, be it defensive or offensive.
I agree. This way, elven rogues and rangers already have the basic feats they need and can start digging for the gold from level one. Compared to the other races, that's overpowered. I suggest that elves do not get Weapon Finesse as a racial bonus. Instead I'd boost the feat for the elves that may choose to get it:
Finesse aptitude: Elves do not need to meet the prerequisite to get Weapon Finesse. In addition, an Elf that takes Weapon Finesse can use Elven Switchblades, Elven Courtblades and Elven Thinblades as martial weapons instead of exotic ones.

The Halfling Rogue is a tough one to save with these characteristics. Perhaps you should rephrase so that the combat penalties apply only in even combat situations (eg, not in an ambush or assassination).

You could even add an ability to make a halfling feel happy that he is in control of the situation (eg when all opponents are flat-footed or denied of their dex bonus)
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Old 11-08-2009, 08:00 AM   Top  -  End  -  #16
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

They're right.

Change the disadvantage so an elf counts as being one size category smaller whenever it would be disadvantageous, except in the cases of weapon use and reach.

You should probably remove combat reflexes from them now that their disadvantage is less crippling (the only reason I suggested it was so that you could make a viable elven fighter by adding a racial feat/ACF/substitution level that allowed attacks of opportunity to be used to parry incoming attacks).
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Old 11-08-2009, 08:43 AM   Top  -  End  -  #17
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

See, this is why I post things on this board. I don't know what to do? Giantitp's all like, "No prob, dude. We got ya' covered."


Quote:
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Elf feels overpowered to me right now.
Did to me too, to be honest. Took lesser_minion's and Iferus' advice on the matter, with an extra bonus if you take the Dodge feat (felt it appropriate, and Dodge seems to be universally panned anyway).

Quick Learner now applies to attack rolls, with the restrictions of A) same target and B) similar attack type (Melee Weapon, Melee Touch, Ranged Weapon, Ranged Touch, Natural Attacks).

Halflings now get Will Saves to stave off the effect.

I'm guessing Dwarves, Humans and (now) Orcs are pretty good? Not many comments on them.

EDIT: Gnomes now get a Concentration check (which they must also roll twice on and take the lower result) to Take 20 on an action.
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Old 11-08-2009, 09:26 AM   Top  -  End  -  #18
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

You should probably let elves use weapons of their normal size as well. d4 damage rapiers and not being allowed to use longbows when riding horses might be entertaining, but I don't recommend it.
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Old 11-08-2009, 09:46 AM   Top  -  End  -  #19
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

For drow, maybe a spell like ability that gives a nice bonus if you cannot use stealth, and a larger bonus if you can. maybe give them +1d6 sneak attack as well (or 1d6 sneak attack, not sure about how you phrase it).
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Old 11-08-2009, 10:10 AM   Top  -  End  -  #20
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

At first, I was dubious about removing ability penalties, but the special disadvantages offset that, and are arguably more interesting.
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Old 11-08-2009, 10:53 AM   Top  -  End  -  #21
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At first, I was dubious about removing ability penalties, but the special disadvantages offset that, and are arguably more interesting.
yes! now i can play an orc wizzard without being lame!
ditto.
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Old 11-08-2009, 11:47 AM   Top  -  End  -  #22
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You should probably let elves use weapons of their normal size as well. d4 damage rapiers and not being allowed to use longbows when riding horses might be entertaining, but I don't recommend it.
Reality check: Under RAW, no one can use a longbow while mounted; anyone can use a shortbow while mounted. This is realistic.

There's nothing wrong with an elf with this "frail" limitation from using a shortbow sized for a Small character while mounted. Although tbh, I'd just let elves use regular weapons sized for a Medium character (ie. the frail limitation doesn't apply to size of weapons used).
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Old 11-08-2009, 11:51 AM   Top  -  End  -  #23
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

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Reality check: Under RAW, no one can use a longbow while mounted; anyone can use a shortbow while mounted. This is realistic.

There's nothing wrong with an elf with this "frail" limitation from using a shortbow sized for a Small character while mounted. Although tbh, I'd just let elves use regular weapons sized for a Medium character (ie. the frail limitation doesn't apply to size of weapons used).
I meant Composite Longbow, and evidently I'm also talking about 3.0.
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Old 11-08-2009, 11:53 AM   Top  -  End  -  #24
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Double checked...

for 3.5e:

* longbow (incl. composite): cannot use mounted.
* shortbow (incl. composite): can use mounted

for 3.0e...

* longbow: cannot use mounted
* composite longbow: Medium creatures can use mounted
* shortbow: Medium creatures can use mounted
* composite shortbow: Small creatures can use mounted

Note that these 3.0e rules are for a weapon specifically designed for a Medium character. The rules still allow for a specially designed version of the bow for a smaller (ie "frailer", for these elves) characters, which would also allow for a smaller limit on who can use the weapon while mounted. 3.5e simply streamlined this rule a bit.

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Old 11-08-2009, 02:11 PM   Top  -  End  -  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lesser_minion View Post
Change the disadvantage so an elf counts as being one size category smaller whenever it would be disadvantageous, except in the cases of weapon use and reach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xallace View Post
Took lesser_minion's and Iferus' advice on the matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xallace
Delicate: Elven musculature is designed for motion, not for outwards force. Elves are considered to be one size category smaller in any situation where it would be disadvantageous to them, except in terms of space and reach.
Elves with small longswords? Not very sexy.


Other than that, I like these races! I was planning to remake all dnd 3.5 races into LA+1 equivalent races just to get rid of the pesky ability penalties, but I guess you're right on track :)

So what races will be next? I personally use all the races from the races of.. and frostburn/sandstorm/stormwrack series; my favorites would be the Goliath, Darfellan, Raptorian and Mongrelfolk. And of course halfbreeds and Goblins need some love too :)

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Old 11-08-2009, 06:46 PM   Top  -  End  -  #26
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Elves with small longswords? Not very sexy.
Whoops! Didn't even think about that. Of course they get to use medium weapons.

Quote:
So what races will be next? I personally use all the races from the races of.. and frostburn/sandstorm/stormwrack series; my favorites would be the Goliath, Darfellan, Raptorian and Mongrelfolk. And of course halfbreeds and Goblins need some love too :)
I was thinking at least Goblins, Hobgoblins, Doppelgangers, Minotaurs and Trolls.
I am also a big fan of the ones you mentioned, so they might also be showing up soon!
Half-Breeds... I'm trying to figure out if I can implement a simple-enough system to allow for making one's own half-races, rather than just providing a few as separate.

I think sometime in the future I will be making new Racial Sub Levels, Alt Class Features, and Racial Feats based on this version, as well.
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:56 AM   Top  -  End  -  #27
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From Races of Stone:

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Old 11-09-2009, 10:39 AM   Top  -  End  -  #28
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

Sweet.

Powerful, but don't seem too powerful. I do think Musclebound should give them some kind of benefit off the bat, though. Maybe they qualify for prerequisites as though they had the Power Attack feat?

Now, as for the Innate Competition, you should probably clarify whether that's a natural roll below/above 10, or a total roll.
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Old 11-09-2009, 01:34 PM   Top  -  End  -  #29
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

Fixed that.

From Stormwrack:

Aventi
With a +2 to any ability score and a flaw of their own choice, these are pretty much okay, I guess?

Darfellan
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Hadozee
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Last edited by Iferus : 11-10-2009 at 05:33 AM.
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Old 11-09-2009, 01:44 PM   Top  -  End  -  #30
Lapak
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Default Re: v3.5 Race Remix! (MC Xallace Mix)

Might also want to clarify which end natural 10s fall on. That is, does a natural 10 count towards penalties or bonuses? Or neither?

Also, I'm not clear why they would tend to accumulate penalties. As written, both are equally likely if 10 counts towards penalties and bonuses are more likely otherwise.
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