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Anybody else been issued the beta version of these classes? Not sure what I think of them so far, seem okay.
__________________ It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
– Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)
__________________ It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
– Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)
so far its standard pazio fare: they put class ablities on a wall and threw darts to decide which ones to use.
Really? I gave it a good read and both concepts seem to be well thought out. The cavalier is an interesting nonmagic counterpart to paladin, and it look far more fun than the 3.5 "I am teh tank! none shall pass!" knight.
If I wanted my character to be a knight, the Cavalier stand out above the fighter and paladin.
Oracle seem interesting, but I usally doesn't play casters so I don't have a good amount of experience to use for comparison. The curse bit is interesting, I especially like the deafened curse as seeing I'm deaf .
Personally I am willing to give both a run in my game.
By the way, both are available for free download so click that link above.
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Around here I have a very responsible position. Every time something goes wrong I'm responsible.
Oracle doesn't look too bad, though it's pretty much just a down-graded cleric (not nessicerily a bad thing though, I've always thought clerics are just too damm powerful). Though the curses seem pretty...well...I think they'd be better optional (since most come with a drawback anyway) and some just seem to have far better advantages. Tongues for free constantly as long as you don't cast language depended spells in combat? Doesn't seem like a bad trade-off when you consider that the most powerful cleric spells aren't langauge dependent at all. Though making the curses optional would be enough to make me happy to use the class.
As for the cavalier...I think they tried to hard to give it a bit of everything. Auras, bonuses to damage whilst charging, and what is pretty much just the Knight's challenge ability tagged on. Having lots of weaker abilities doesn't make a class great, and the monk is a testament to that. And well...alot of the ideas for it look recycled from elsewhere, as well as from the knight class in PHB. I mean..is there really in point in making a class and calling it yours if all you did was take a bunch of abilities made by others and group them together, especially when existing versions of it (such as the PHB or Ultimate Knight) do the job just as well.
Overall: Meh. Alright I guess, but I can get better elsewhere.
Well, I already posted mty thoughts on RPG.net and En World, but I'll combine what I said.
I could be wrong, but these were my first impressions.
Spoiler
Cavalier has major issue with rogues. He gets sneak attacked whenever he challenges an enemy.
Oracle is pretty cool, but some Focus powers are better than others. Firestorm is forever 1/day, but Blizzard is at will (no listed use a/day). Granted, Firestorm does double what Blizzard deals, but since you can use Blizzard again not a big issue.
Thunderstorm is Firestorm but multiple uses/day.
And my other post at RPG net.
Spoiler
Interesting classes:
1st Thought, Cavalier is basically a Pally with different mechanism. Instead of Smite mechanic he has that Challenge.
Smite enhances damage no penalty, but Challenge has the Cavalieer ganked by rogues.
The other abilities are nice, but I don't see how the +1d6 to target is always worth the flatfooted danger.
At least that is every attack: maybe a Cavalier should dual wield? Then he could kill target faster and be flatfooted less often.
Loses Shield bonus at low levels though, but later can afford animated shield possibly.
Oracles are Spontaneous Divine casters like Favored Soul in Complete Divine? Except only uses Cha like Sorceror.
Each oracle cursed? Strange idea, but better than Wu jen's in Complete Arcane.
What does, "You cannot see anything beyond 30 feet, but you can see as if you had darkvision" mean?
So basically, you see up to 30 ft similar to darkvision (black and white)?
Interesting total Deaf, but not total blind is a choice.
Haunted: Does this mean you can only retrieve stuff as a move action minimum?
Foci powers:
Battlecry kinda imirates Inspire Courage.
Iron Skin is amazing (since Stoneskin usually has a material cost and you get this for free).
Skill at arms: making a Gish caster I guess.
Bleeding wounds is useful.
Raise the dead is good but limited (since only 2 ever at level 10 stops growing in usage).
Soul Siphone is good: negative levels rock.
Firestorm is pretty cool except never grows past 1/day.
Molten Skin/Acid Skin/Icy Skin can grant immunity is awesome.
Blizzard doesn't say 1/day so at will?
Thunderburst is similar to Firestorm but multuple uses. Why is Firestorm weaker in useage?
Overall, I like the idea behind the Cavalier. But the whole flanked by everyone but target is weird.
Oracle has focuses without a balancing I can see.
Some are like 10 times better than another.
I know 3.5 was built with option mastery: some super weak stuff to help newbs develop ability to eventually not pick them, but seems a bad idea to design behind.
I like how the level 20 Battle-Focused Oracle who casts Divine Power on himself again becomes a better fighter than the fighter. Full attack and move as a full-round action? Yes, please!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Roc
Ring of Evasion means never playing a monk with monk levels again. There is just no reason to dip that stuff. I know we're all about using every part of the buffalo here, but can we just admit that it's inedible?
Thoughts on Cavalier: Challenge doesn't really seem to draw fire so much as repulse it. The flanking thing is very awkward and probably could have been better expressed as being flat-footed with an AC penalty. Challenge also does not appear to clear on the cavalier's own death--something I would expect.
Oath's bonuses are either too circumstantial (Abstinence, Purity), too difficult to trigger at a time when it's needed (Greed), or have too small a bonus (Justice, Loyalty, Vengeance) to really matter. Protection in particular seems backwards: you gain an AC bonus when adjacent to your protected, instead of providing your protected a bonus--this, to me, means your protected will be taking more fire as they're an easier target to hit. Further, the use of "24 hours" (Abstinence, Greed) against "day" (Justice) leaves me pause.
Expert Trainer refers to the possibility of additional mounts, but the Mount class feature says nothing about how to acquire them.
Order of the Cockatrice's 15th level ability is very strong, but it's 15th level so it's not overpowering. Comparing it's 2nd level ability to that of the Order of the Lion makes it look comparatively very weak.
Order of the Shield's 2nd level ability is very weak: it's fake damage reduction that can still render you unconscious in minuscule amounts. I'd much prefer to see straight damage reduction/-. The 15th level ability, compared to that of the Cockatrice, seems lame. Cockatrice lets you and everyone you're friends with attack, and with no penalty; instead, Order of the Shield's lets just you move and attack, and you're staggered afterwards.
Thoughts on Oracle: Lame dwarves are screwed to 10' movement. I would like to see an exemption for them.
Combat Healer already has a penalty (two slots) so it probably doesn't need to be limited on a per-day basis.
Spirit Walk should probably just act like etherealness.
Fire Breath should probably be qualified as a breath weapon. Firestorm's once/day rather than once/day/4 levels status makes it a less-than-stellar option.
Blizzard has no uses-per-day limitation.
Air Barrier's 50% miss chance is inordinately powerful: a similar spell (entropic field) only gives a 20% miss chance. Lightning Breath should probably be qualified as a breath weapon.
I like how the level 20 Battle-Focused Oracle who casts Divine Power on himself again becomes a better fighter than the fighter. Full attack and move as a full-round action? Yes, please!
like I said: DARTBOARD.
seriously did Jason get confused as to which class he was writing?
I like how the level 20 Battle-Focused Oracle who casts Divine Power on himself again becomes a better fighter than the fighter. Full attack and move as a full-round action? Yes, please!
He can already do that 3/times a day by 15th level with Surprising Charge. That just means he can do it at will at 20th level.
__________________ It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
– Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)
I read the two classes in a fair level of depth today. It's . . . un-frakkin'-believable.
TL;DR version: Paizo has released two classes that are far and away the best classes ever published in their category. Both classes are more powerful than their PRPG counterparts.
Cavalier:
Spoiler
The first thing that's completely obvious about this class is that it's an extraordinarily powerful charger. Even with the Power Attack nerfs, the various damage buffs from charging while mounted give some fairly impressive damage totals. Add in the Order of the Sword's ability to get your mount's STR to damage on mounted charge attacks, and you're looking at a 10th-level damage dealer that probably outclasses anything else in Pathfinder.
Of course, it's also possible to build a fairly amusing TWF Cavalier who rides in on a giant eagle, full attacks with the Challenge bonus damage, and then flies away 'cause the eagle used its Fly-By Attack feat. Fun times.
The second thing, however, is a little bit disturbing. The Cavalier's Challenge mechanic means that if a Cavalier has any brains, non-knightly behavior is basically mandatory. Remember, all melee attacks that don't come from your challenge target are calculated as if you're being flanked. Unless you figure out some way to not be vulnerable to Sneak Attack, you'd better run away as soon as you attack, so that no rogues or SA-ing monsters can get you in melee for a full attack. That's the idea behind the Hit-And-Run Eagle Warrior above.
Third, some of the Orders are definitely inferior to others. Orders that require you not to dump Charisma are pretty obviously inferior, since MAD is deadly to beatsticks and the mental stat most needed by the Cavalier is Wisdom (so you don't fail Will saves and charge-smack-wreck your own party). Order of the Cockatrice (basically a rip-off-and-slight-nerf of some of our favorite White Raven maneuvers from Tome of Battle) and Order of the Sword are pretty clearly the best ones.
The bottom line: All of the charge bonuses stack 100% with mounted charge feats, and we're looking at an insanely powerful damage dealer (by Pathfinder standards) here. Easily outclasses the barbarian. Pretty solid class.
Oracle:
Spoiler
The Favored Soul, from Complete Divine, needed both Wisdom and Charisma for offensive casting, suffered from generally bad class features, and was still unambiguously better than non-casters (oh, and it featured in some incredibly powerful builds when you realized that you could just cast spells that didn't require saves).
The Oracle, from the APG beta, is Charisma-dependent for casting, has really amazing class features, and has basically no drawbacks at all.
Let's start with the class chassis. Hit Dice are d8s, BAB is medium, and skills are 4+Int. That right there is a pretty substantial improvement, since the 2+Int skills of other divine casters have always been pretty crippling. High Will instead of the Favored Soul's 3 good saves. Sorcerer spells known and spells per day, using the cleric spell list. So far, you're trading skills for saves compared to the Favored Soul, and getting HD, BAB, and skill increase for absolutely nothing compared to the PF Sorcerer. Pretty good trade, so far.
The Curse ability is flavorful and interesting, but I predict that nobody with a brain will take Lame, unless they have a means of flying reliably, and then they'll do it a LOT. The "speaking in tongues" curse is pretty funny too, since you get to understand a huge range of languages and nothing prevents your party members from blowing a couple points in Linguistics. The result is that you're "cursed" with 1) using a language in combat that your party understands, but 95% or more of enemies don't, and 2) making the Charisma-based caster with 4+Int skill points and Diplomacy and Sense Motive in-class be the party face. I wish my parties were always cursed like that.
On to the Foci. First, we should note that the PF Sorcerer's bloodlines were characterized by having generally mediocre abilities (that you had to pick at each given level), bad or redundant class skills, and often poor selections of extra spells known.
The Oracle is superior on every count. There are lots of focus abilities, many of which are fairly good and some of which are awesome. You can pick which ones you get, so you get the good and awesome ones and avoid the mediocre ones. The class skills? Well, for starters, each focus gets you FOUR of them, so amongst those there pretty much has to be at least one good one (and there is - sometimes there are even two good skills added!). And the new spells known lists are really good, on the whole. There are at least three good spells on each list, and some of the lists are far stronger than that.
The Battle Focus has already been mentioned as being far better than being a fighter. I want to mention how much better it is than the 3.5 Favored Soul. The Favored Soul got Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization as part of its insultingly-bad class features. Spend one of your seven "revelations," and you get Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, and Greater Weapon Focus. Still bad, especially compared to other options, but shows how much more powerful the Oracle is compared to its 3.5 counterpart.
I also want to mention the Wind Focus. You get to be invisible for a lot of time, which is nice. You get Overland Flight for free, and can upgrade it to 90 ft. fly with perfect maneuverability whenever you're in combat. You get a free scouting power "anywhere that air can travel" so you can peek under doorways or through chimneys. Basically, you're Santa Claus, except you can wreck entire cities with spells you get for free (Control Winds + Control Weather).
Oops, I almost forgot! At 13th level, you will have picked the ability that gives you a scaling armor bonus to AC, followed by 50% concealment against all ranged attacks (including spells that require attack rolls).
So, let's compare the Oracle to other Pathfinder caster classes.
Sorcerer: Since this is the other spontaneous caster that we have so far, let's see how the two stack up.
Class chassis: Oracle wins. Better HD, BAB, skills, and class skills.
Spells: Oracle gets a bunch of good spells off the druid and sorc/wiz spell lists, with strong focus choices. Since there are fewer super-good spells in Pathfinder, the Oracle misses out on less.
Class features: Are you kidding? Seriously, go back and read.
Cleric: The Oracle and Cleric cast off the same spell list, and the 3.5 Favored Soul was strictly inferior to the 3.5 Cleric for all but the most specific applications.
Class Chassis: Oracle wins. Everything's the same except skills per level and class skills.
Spells: Generally, prepared casters are better off than spontaneous casters. But the limited nature of the spells we're picking from (PRPG core, basically) means that there are fewer spells that are actually good. So, this disadvantage is significantly mitigated, and getting spells from the druid list is really nice. Cleric has a slight edge.
Class Features: The Cleric gets two domains. The Oracle gets one focus and gets Cursed With Awesome. Disregarding the curse, the good Oracle foci are better than any two Cleric domains. Oracle wins.
Bottom line: There is practically no mechanical reason to play a Sorcerer anymore. Play an Oracle instead, and replace your Cleric with a Wizard. You're going to be way better off that way.
Oracles are, right now, the second-strongest class in PRPG, and arguably rival Wizards for the top spot. The Oracle is unambiguously better than any beatstick class at the task of beatsticking.
You can tell that their design and testing process is extremely rigourous. I mean, these fine classes are designed, and overpowered psionics are clearly rejected. All hail the balance of Pathfinder.
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He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
You can tell that their design and testing process is extremely rigourous. I mean, these fine classes are designed, and overpowered psionics are clearly rejected. All hail the balance of Pathfinder.
I think "balance" has long been put to bed as something D20/3e or Path Finder have ever really been interested in. One of the most prominent ideas behind D20/3e was "rules mastery", so it is no surprise to see that perpetuated here. Buy our new decks rules supplements for more powerful cards characters.
__________________ It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
– Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)
Odd. I walked away from both classes with the impression that they were less powerful than their PRPG counterparts.
Cavalier's bonus damage doesn't scale nearly as nicely as a paladin's does, and doesn't have any of the nifty side effects like ignoring DR either.
The idea about full attacking while your eagle does ride-by attack ignores that you should only get 1 standard attack in that circumstance.
[From the PRD: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.] After about 11th, I'd rather just make full attacks with Smite Evil, thank you.
By the way, I think the key to abusing cavalier is to dual-wield lances and find a way to get pounce on every charge. Yes folks, you heard it here first.
Order of the Shield's 8th level ability was my favorite order ability, btw. Get standstill, but also deal damage on that hit? Count me in! Very good control possible with that.
Also, I think people are freaking the hell out about sneak attacks. How many times do your DMs actually throw rogues at the party? Seriously, it's going to happen maybe twice in a campaign unless the theme is "rogues guild attacks!"
Oracles really didn't impress me, because nearly all their path abilities are usable 1/day+1/5 levels. I like 3/day+Wis much, much more, because 1/day means I hardly ever get to use the damned thing. Battle is stronger than any domain powers from a cleric, while the others are all weaker than a ny pair of cleric domains. Needs more work.
Class Chassis: Oracle wins. Everything's the same except skills per level and class skills.
Saves change also. Oracles go off the Sorcerer/Wizard high will save progression where Clerics get high Fort and Will. Not a HUGE difference, but one that could be at least moderately significant.
Oracles really didn't impress me, because nearly all their path abilities are usable 1/day+1/5 levels. I like 3/day+Wis much, much more, because 1/day means I hardly ever get to use the damned thing. Battle is stronger than any domain powers from a cleric, while the others are all weaker than a ny pair of cleric domains. Needs more work.
Reread Blizard: there is no limit/day. It is 1/rd (unless you get another standard action), but no limit.
Ironskin is a free Stoneskin (that saves 250 gp).
Molten/Icy/etc Skin grant immunity (eventually) to energy damage.
Reread Blizard: there is no limit/day. It is 1/rd (unless you get another standard action), but no limit.
Ironskin is a free Stoneskin (that saves 250 gp).
Molten/Icy/etc Skin grant immunity (eventually) to energy damage.
There doesn't appear to be a duration listed on Ironskin.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Roc
Ring of Evasion means never playing a monk with monk levels again. There is just no reason to dip that stuff. I know we're all about using every part of the buffalo here, but can we just admit that it's inedible?
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[D20/PF] Cavalier and Oracle Classes
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