im new to 4th ed and im going to start playing with a group of friends that have been playing for several weeks now.
i would like to make a rogue, but have some questions... from what ive seen is INT no longer an important attribute for Rogues? at one time it was very important for skills, but if im looking at 4ed correctly its not needed at all.
i guess this is my main question for now. has anyone else played 4ed rogue and what are your thoughts/experiences with the class?!
Im having trouble deciding between a doppelganger or elf... probably will let DM decide this for me as doppelganger may not even me an option.
Rogue is a great striker class but depends on the enemies granting combat advantage... If you want to deal melee damage then ranger is the class for you. There are no skill points anymore so Int doesn't matter for a rogue that much. For a rogue pump dex (for attacks, initiative, and defenses)
ty for the info! i do want to be a rogue and serve the rogue role in the party, so melee damage is not as critical to me.
need to balance of melee skill, but not at the loss of being able to perform rogue functions. ill leave the bulk of the fighting to the warriors, but sneak attack just in time to get the kill muhahahaha!
It's pretty easy to make a good rogue in 4th. There's a lot of ways to get CA, including from a lot of your own powers, and rogues have a free +1 to hit built in for using daggers, which, as far as class features go, is about as straightforwardly useful as it gets.
If you really want to be a damage dealer, it's recommended that you go Brutal Scoundrel and keep your strength up. There's also room for enough Charisma in a Brutal build to make Sly Flourish your bread and butter damage dealer, so you can play it pretty conservatively in combat if you need too (get CA, Sly Flourish, deal W+Dex+Cha+Str+Sneak Attack, repeat).
Artful Dodger may seem more appealing conceptually to many players who want to play the cool, acrobatic guy, but the class feature itself is kind of underwhelming, IMO, since it's pretty easy to avoid provoking AoO's in the first place. There are some decent riders on some powers from it, though.
As far as the "rogue functions" - there isn't really a whole lot of skill optimization in 4th ed since ranks are eliminated. One thing that may surprise you is that Rogues no longer have any need for Int, since you get the same number of skills regardless, and most of your skills are based on Dex or Cha. Perception is the only traditional "roguey" skill on your list that uses a dump stat, and if you go Elf, the +5 from training and +2 from race easily makes up for the lack of a stat bonus.
The only real reason for Int is to maybe pick up Jack of All Trades, but that's only if you have the ability points and feat to spare (which optimized builds rarely do). If you really want to be a good skill monkey, Bards do it better.
Edit: Here's a little quick build of an all-around "Mario" level 1 Elf rogue for you, as an example.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Rogue Tactics: Brutal Scoundrel
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 11, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 14.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 11, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14.
i like what i see there alot Grynning! tyvm for the info. let me digest this abit more and if i have more questions ill fire away. again thank you guys. i have not played pnp in quite some time so im googling my butt off trying to get up to speed without any resources of my own!
I did originally want to go with Brutal Scoundrel, but then swayed to Artful Dodger solely based on fluff, as I have no material in front of me. I will go with my gut and be a Scoundrel ;)
I assume elves get +2 to dex and wis in 4thed? If so, is the wis bump needed? could I leave wis at 8(10) and put the points to better use? i know with the attribute point buy system I would be limited to were I could put them. Con looks good... more HPs, Int but that would only be to qualify for Jack of All Trades and idk the Int preq for that. Mainly Im looking at Con for HPs, but The Wis would give me a bonus to saving throws. Obvioulsy it's a personal decision, but I would like to know your thoughts on HPs vs saves... is Wis needed for feats/skills?
for lv1 feats I was looking at; jack of all, light step, ritual caster or surprise knockdown... but again I have little to no material must internet seraches, so im not even sure if these are Lv1 feats?
Level 1: Warrior of the Wild
the only power i had different in the build i attempted to create was positioning strike, but again this may be an ability that is available after lv1.
Let me post what abilities interested me and maybe that will give an idea of what i was looking for. i know the elf you posted was very general and is acutally a very good build IMO, i just want to get more into it! if you care to put up with me lol.
weapon: im debating double blade or dagger, probably go dagger.
skills: i was leaning towards acrobatics as opposed to athletics... is there a reason why you lean toward both? Im also considering Arcana to assist with ritual caster feat... I like to mix in magic with my rogues, but know very little about ritual caster abilities. are they viable in your opinion? I was also interested in Bluff and Insight but notice you did not recommend these. Do you feel Bluff and Insight are not useful or as useful as other skills? Streetwise and Dungeoneering interest me, but I did leave them off my list. I guess our builds differ here where I chose Bluff and Insight instead. Hmm tough decisions there! But again I know very little of this edition.
Dropping wisdom down wouldn't hurt you too much, but if it was me and I wanted the 2 extra points in Con I'd drop Int instead, since it's doing nothing at all right now. Wisdom is still boosting Perception and Dungeoneering (Dungeoneering was gained from the Warrior of the Wild (ranger multiclass) feat, so if you pick a different feat you won't be trained in it. Skills are really mutable, so yeah, go with what fits your guy, I was just picking what I thought the classic D&D thief would grab.
As to why both Athletics and Acrobatics - Some Rogue powers actually require you to be trained in one or the other. Picking both gives you more choices. Also, you can't do everything with one that you can with the other, and I like to have all the bases covered.
Remember in 4th ed, there are no "saves", there are defenses, and you use the best of 2 stats for each one (Dex or Int for AC and Reflex, Str or Con for Fort, Wis or Cha for will), so all the Con bump really does is increase your starting HP/surges a little, but hey, that can be pretty important to some people, especially at low levels.
I highly recommend you download the demo of the character builder. It'll let you do levels 1-3 and it has all the info on the feats and skills and whatnot so you can get a better feel. If you're like me, you'll immediately get addicted to making characters with it and buy a DDI subscription so you can make more
Edit: Oh - On powers: Sly Lunge is from Martial Power, and if you go Brutal Scoundrel it's a lot better than Positioning Strike. If you don't have access to Martial Power for whatever reason, Torturous Strike is probably your best bet for the big damage, or Dazing Strike for some guaranteed CA the next turn.
Another Edit: I just saw you asked about multi-classing with casters - If you want to do a caster multi-class, you can viably multiclass Rogues into Warlock, or Sorcerer, if you make your Charisma high and want to grab a power from them. However, I don't recommend doing this if you're new to the game, straight Rogues are much easier and will probably be more fun for you starting out. You can get into some really nasty, rule-bending stuff with multiclassing, like if you take a Sorcerer MC'ed to Rogue and go Daggermaster in Paragon (AoE's with 18-20 crits, zomg!) but I don't think that's really what you're going for.