Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight.

[Baxter190]

New thread guys


Old Thread here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...141538&page=50

[Cheesegear]

This needs to go as close to the first post as possible

Cheesegear presents Cheesegear's Newbie Guide on How to pick Warhammer 40K army, by Cheesegear (and contributors).

Spoiler

Disclaimer: This is not a guide to say which armies are 'better' than other armies. Except in hyperbole. The 'stars' notation is for what Newbies should play. By no means does this mean that you shouldn't play Chaos Daemons. It means that if you're a new player and don't fully understand the rules to the game, it might be hard to make Daemons work.

Any unit that gets specifically mentioned is a stand-out unit, or will represent a 'must-have' unit that the army has.

General Advice for all armies;

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• Where possible, you should always talk to a GW Staff Member. No, you don't have to actually listen to or do anything they say. But, you should at least talk to them so they can point you in at least a general direction. Don't buy anything on your first trip into the store. GW Staff are very persuasive, and you can - or will - often end up buying something you don't even want.
• If and when you do finally decide on an army, play a few games in an actual GW Store using the Store's models. Otherwise, where possible, use proxy models. This will give you a basic understanding of most of the rules and the turn sequence and a general idea of how your army-of-choice plays. Or, at least give you an idea that an army or unit that you thought was cool, really isn't. Or maybe that particular army just isn't for you. And that unit that 'looks cool' doesn't fit your play style.
• Read a Codex. Whatever gets said on the internet, means absolutely nothing if you don't have a Codex to understand what's being said. This ties into the above in that it's kind of important that you have played a few games and know the rules.
• GW doesn't mention it all that much, but; You don't have to use your army's Codex for your army. For example; It's perfectly reasonable to, say, use the Chaos Space Marine Codex to represent a 1st Company of Loyalist Marines. You can, in fact, use Imperial Guard models to represent Tau, or Eldar. Just so long as your models look suitably awesome and your models conform to the rules of a different list (the WYSIWYG rule). If you can also give a background justification - or 'fluffy' reason - for why your Imperial Guard are wielding Shuriken or Pulse Rifles; Even better!
• In regards to the above; 'Counts as' models can generally be shown to be a fluffy reason for why you have what you have. So, maybe your Imperial Guard regiment has a lot of Ogryns. You can use an Ogryn-holding-a-Lascannon as your 'Heavy Weapon Team'. As long as it's WYSIWYG, and at least makes a passing attempt at conforming to the rules (such as base size/shape), nobody cares. However, GW really doesn't like it when you come into their store and start using a different company's miniatures to play a GW game. However, making a scratch-build from Green Stuff and Plasticard is totally okay. Just so long as you aren't giving their competitors money, eh?
• With that said; Painting, Green Stuff, Plasticard and Conversions in general, the only way to get better at it, is to practice. Start easy, start small. Start with adding cloaks to troops. Large, rectangular pieces of Green Stuff. Easy. Maybe you'll be confident to add textures. Ability comes with practice. And, there are literally dozens of tutorials to be found on YouTube. And hundreds of tutorials just about everywhere else.
• Less is more. Don't try to equip your unit to do everything. Assign your units to fulfill a role, and let them do it. Don't waste points on things you aren't going to use.
• Bodies are far more important than Wargear. Do not spend 100 extra points on Wargear, if you could otherwise spend 100 points on buying a whole unit. Wargear is not a substitute for models. Well, it is. But, it's a poor substitute.
• In regards to the above two points, very rarely, should you spend more than 200 points on a single model (such as an HQ model), or 300 points on a single unit.
• Troops. Win. Games. Do not, under any circumstances, skimp out on your Troops selection. More often than not they are the cheapest unit in the Codex, and, Troops are the only units who can capture an objective. Any unit can contest an objective, but, only Troops can claim objectives. All contesting objectives will do is get you is a Draw.
• Assault on Black Reach. Bad for Space Marine players. Good for Ork Players.
• Vehicles and You.
  
• Closet_Skeleton says:
  "Every Troops choice you spend on a non-Scoring unit is Troops choice wasted."

Guide to Armies

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Space Marines (Codex Marines, SMs):

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Pros: Space Marines are the eponymous 40K army. They are the army by which all other armies are judged. Just about all their units can be outfitted in many different ways to fulfill many different roles (but, in regards to General Advice, they should only try to do one thing at a time). With few exceptions, the entire army selection is plastic for easy conversions and assembly (and, most of the metal models you don't even need). As plastics, the army is also relatively cheap to buy.
GW Staff are extremely knowledgeable on all things Space Marine.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
Power Armour and Bolters.

Cons: Honestly, none. Save for the common misinformation that GW Staff will tell you to get you to buy certain units and sets (like Assault on Black Reach). But, this is by no means bad. As a Space Marine is a Space Marine. And pretty much all the units in the Codex can be useful one way or another.
One such example is that there is a growing proportion of Space Marine players who feel - despite the fluff and the statline - that Scout Squads are superior to Tactical Squads (the reason why is outside the scope of this guide).
The only truly bad thing about Space Marines, is that everybody has them. GW sells them at every opportunity. All starter sets ever produced by GW has contained Space Marines as one of the 'learner' armies. By extension, a lot of people turn to Space Marines because that's what they learned the game with, but, what they don't realise, is that the Assault on Black Reach starter kit is weak.

Recommendation for Newbs; *****. But the Assault on Black Reach kit isn't a good start to a Space Marine army. GW likes misinformation.
* or ** depending on whether or not you care about being 'just like everyone else'.
What's so bad about AoBR?

Codex Space Marines theoretically allows you to build 7 different 'themes' of Space Marines (even though it's 6) based around what colours and which Special Characters you like. However, any special character can be used in any Chapter, painted any colour that you choose. So, really, what Chapter you choose is kind of irrelevant since you can use other Chapters' special characters anyway.

The common belief is that 'Space Marines is Space Marines'. They all have Power Armour and Bolters. All of the above applies to the below;
Dark Angels: Outdated Codex. A few minor differences. Many people are best off going with Codex Marines rather than playing by Dark Angels rules. The only reason to play Dark Angels is for Ravenwing. And, even then, sometimes you might be better off with Codex Marines with a 'Captain on Bike'. *
Black Templars: Outdated Codex. Slightly more focused on close combat. With some unique rules. ***
Space Wolves: Space Wolves are actually the 'most fair' list out of all the Space Marine variants. They're a solid list. They have no actual 'bad' or 'trap' units. ****
Blood Angels: The only real difference in the List is more options to take Jump Packs, Fast vehicles, and a slight bonus to Deep Striking. Staggeringly similar to Codex Marines otherwise and you wont actually lose much by playing Blood Angels. ****

If you don't understand just what it is that makes these Chapters unique as opposed Codex Marines (read their respective Codecies), or you don't like or don't plan on using what makes them unique; You're better off sticking to Codex Marines. You can still paint your Space Marines as Blood Angels and use Codex Marines.

Chaos Space Marines (Chaos Marines, CSMs):

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Like Space Marines, but Evil. So, just about everything that applies to Space Marines applies to Chaos Space Marines.
Pros: Chaos Space Marines are slightly more focused on close combat than their Imperial counterparts - but, by no means to they have to be. CSMs are not necessarily 'better' than regular SMs. Just...Different. Each faction has different toys at their disposal.
There are a variety of different ways you can outfit your squads, and it's kind of difficult to find any two CSM armies the same.
Power Armour and Bolters.
Converting your 'Starter Box' Space Marine army to Chaos Marines is fairly easy. Just add spikes and arrows and mutations.

Cons: There are options in the Codex. Too many options some say. It's very easy to get confused on what or what not to get for your squads and characters. And it's even easier to go overboard on wargear and skills and the like (remember; Wargear != Bodies).
CSMs are also a fairly commonly seen army as they cater to the people who want to play Space Marines, but, think that 'Evil is Cool'. Some do consider who they get associated with as a bad thing.
The 'some of everything' approach that a lot of new players have when collecting their armies doesn't really work for Chaos Marines. Most of the time, you're best off going all-out on one or two of the Cult units (below).

Recommendation for Newbies: ****

Chaos Space Marines (Cults):

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Contributions supplied by Winterwind, DaedalusMkV and unknowingly by Myatar Panwar

World Eaters/Khorne-based/Beserkers:
Lots of attacks...Aaand...That's about it. Khorne Beserkers have WS 5 and also gain Furious Charge, meaning that when Assaulting, they're hitting and wounding most things on 3s and 2/3s. Their initiative 5 (when Assaulting) helps them a lot when they can strike before most enemies and kill them before they get attacks back. Khorne Berzerkers are fairly good at what they do, but, their individual unit effectiveness is directly proportional to their opponent's armour save.
Meaning, that, for the most part, you need lots of Beserkers. Lots. Khorne Beserker armies also don't function very well without Rhinos, as their only ranged weapons are Pistols. So, this is a lot of currency. On top of which; As they lack ranged weapons, Obliterators, Vindicators and Defilers are almost required for the army.
Khorne Lords and Daemon Princes are considered to be the least efficient. The Daemon Weapon gives you double the chance to hurt yourself. As well as +2D6 Power Weapon attacks is pretty much overkill. You don't really need that many.
Their special character - Kharn - is quite good though.
*** You will need Rhinos. Luckily, Berzerkers come in boxes of 12 (which is more than the other Cult units) and are plastic. Which is good.

Thousand Sons/Tzeentch-based:
All models with the Mark of Tzeentch gain an Invulnerable save. Or, their save gets improved if they already have one. This makes Tzeentch-based lists very tough to kill on the outset.
Onto specialised units; Thousand Sons are a Troop choice that comes with a 4+ invulnerable save, and have AP3 Bolters. Perfect for objective-squatting. This also makes them deadly in ranged firefights - and their invulnerable save makes them hard to kill on the return. Being Slow and Purposeful, it's a good idea to get as much use our their Bolters as you can get.
Thousand Sons also have a Sorcerer as their 'Sergeant'. Chaos Psychic Powers being as they are, this is quite good, as most 'shooting' powers tend to be AP3 or better, or allow no save at all. The Sorcerer also comes with a Force Weapon (add Warptime for fun). Meaning units with an Independent Character kind of need to think twice before Assaulting Thousand Sons units.
However, units without Independent Characters (that you can't target), and other dedicated Assault units will have an easy time. As Thousand Sons are the worst Assault unit in the Codex. But, this isn't saying a whole lot, as they're still Space Marines.
Tzeentch Daemon Princes and Sorcerers are quite good, able to choose and use two powers in the same turn. As well as receiving a better Invulnerable save. Tzeentch Lords are 'okay'. The Tzeentch special character - Ahriman - is pretty good. But, far too overpoints'd.
*** Thousand Sons boxes are expensive. But, you get plenty in a box.

Emperor's Children/Slaanesh-based/Noise Marines:
Marks of Slaanesh add to Initiative. This means pretty much everything in the CSM army will be functioning at Initiative 5. If you're unit holds Power Weapons, you can do a lot of damage before your opponent even gets to attack.
Noise Marines. Are. Amazing. Sonic Blasters are essentially Storm Bolters that get an extra shot if you're standing still. A Blastmaster, is a S8, AP3 Blast weapon that causes Pinning. Do you want yet? Just before Assaulting, the Noise Marine Champion has access to a S5, AP3 Flamer. This will kill things dead. Then Assault, at Initiative 5 (if you're opponent didn't fail their Morale check from you shooting the crap out of them, that is) and you can do some serious damage.
Daemon Princes and Sorcerers gain Lash of Submission. Usually considered one of the more unfair psychic powers as it allows you to move your opponent's models. Where? Into Dangerous Terrain, out of their precious cover, towards your own models into Assault range, or even just moving their Heavy Weapon team out of LoS.
Chaos Lords with Blissgiver are perfect Character killers as with 3+D6 attacks and Initiative 6, they only need to cause one wound (with a 'Power Weapon') to kill pretty much anything they want.
Lucius the Eternal is just as good as - if not better than - Kharn. And doesn't even cost that many points.
*** or **** The Noise Marine box doesn't come with with many Sonic Blasters. They are, however, available in bulk from Mail Order. But, they're not that important. You're really only getting Noise Marines for Blastmasters and Doom Sirens.

Death Guard/Nurgle-based/Plague Marines:
Extra Toughness. Might not seem like much. But, it's (usually) the most expensive Mark for units that can take it for a reason. Works best on models in Terminator Armour or models on Bikes.
Plauge Marines are pretty much exactly the same as regular Chaos Marines, except with Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain. They're extremely hard to kill. On top of which, they have Defensive Grenades. And that's pretty good. Aaand...That's about it actually. Not much can be said about Plague Marines except exactly that.
The Mark of Nurgle is mostly wasted on Daemon Princes as they don't really need the extra Toughness compared to what else they could take and Sorcerers on gain access to Nurgle's Rot, which, again, compared to other powers, isn't that great. As Nurgle's Rot works best in close combat. But, Nurgle Sorcerers only get one psychic power per turn. So, it's Nova, or use the Force Weapon.
On Chaos Lords (especially in Terminator Armour), the Mark of Nurgle is alright. Giving access to a reasonably good Daemon Weapon.
The special character for Death Guard is Typhus. He's pretty damn good. Opinion appears to be divided on whether or not he's worth the points. He has Wind of Chaos, and Nurgle's Rot (otherwise known as Nurgle's Nova). And he auto-passes all psychic tests when using those powers. As well as having the Nurgle-based Daemon Weapon, that also counts as a Force Weapon. As well as Terminator Armour and Defensive Grenades. Whether you like him or not is your choice.
*** Plague Marines are pretty boring for options. But, Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain are really, really good. And the Mark of Nurgle is usually the most expensive Mark for those who would get any real use out of it.

Tyranids ('Nids):

Spoiler

If you think of the movie Alien, or Starship Troopers, Tyranids aren't far off the mark.
Pros: Tyranids are primarily seen as a close combat swarm army. The big Tyranids are extremely customisable and immensely powerful in whatever role you want to give them (but you should only choose one role at a time, remember), and, the smaller Tyranids come in massive numbers designed to make your opponent crap themselves on just how many bodies you can put on the table. The Tyranids also possess one of the most deadly close combat units in the entire game.
A Troops choice that can Infiltrate.
Most of the army is plastic. And, many of the metal models you only need a few of. So, per box, Tyranids are pretty cheap. Also, the Tyranid Battleforce is generally considered the 'best' one. Although, it's definitely recommended by most of the internet that you get two.

Cons: Like CSMs, it's often possible to overload your Monstrous Creatures with too many biomorphs (wargear), which gets expensive. Fast. And, many of the smaller Tyranids are designed for one unchangeable role. The smaller Tyranids can't adapt their units for what they want to do. A Tyranid army is usually seen as very shooty-heavy, or very assault-heavy. It very - extremely rarely - can be both. Often, trying to be both is actually a detriment to the Tyranid army.

Without the bigger Tyranids to back them up, the smaller Tyranids suddenly become a lot more vulnerable, partly because they already have low toughness and high armour saves to begin with. Therefore, you may need to spend a bit of money on the larger, more expensive models.
As a swarm army, box-per-box, you also don't get very many points in each box. This means you'll probably have to end up spending a lot of money to get a decent amount of points onto the table.

Also, like SMs and CSMs, if a 14 year old kid isn't playing SMs or CSMs, then they're playing Tyranids.

Reccomendation for Newbies: ** to ****. Depending on how much real-world currency you have to spend. If you don't have a lot of money, you wont be able to field a lot of bodies or acquire the larger Monstrous Creatures. If you can field ~50 Termagants and 50 Hormagaunts per battle and have Monstrous Creatures to back them up...Good.

Eldar:

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Elves. In SPAAACE!
Pros: The Eldar boast a 'swiss army knife' army. They have a unit for everything and every unit can do their job well. Each and every unit looks vastly different to every other unit, and are actually supposed to be painted in different colours to each other. So, you have a huge variety of models and colours. If variety is important to you.
Most of the army can Fleet. All Eldar tanks are Fast, Skimmers, and the army contains Eldar Jetbikes (which have different rules to 'normal' Jetbikes). In short, the Eldar army boasts speed and maneuverability.
As with their Infantry, they also have HQ units to fit certain roles. An Autarch can be outfitted to suit almost any battlefield role. Eldar Farseers and Seer Councils are powerful psykers. And the Avatar is a close combat Monster (literally).
A lot of the metal models in the range come in reasonable sized boxes at a (fairly) reasonable price. The good news is, you usually don't need too many of the metal models.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
A Wraithlord is one of the scariest models in the game. An absurdly high Toughness and a reasonable armour save. And can kill troops and heavy armour with equal ease. Often at the same time. It's strength 10 and Monstrous Creature status also means it can rip apart tanks even when it's guns are suited to killing Infantry. It even causes Instant Death on most Infantry that attack it. Including a lot of HQ characters.
Wraithguard are like smaller Wraithlords high Strength and Toughness, with a good save and toting around deadly guns.
...It's possible to build an entire army out of Wraithguard and Wraithlords.

Cons: Low 'Elf' Toughness.
The sheer amount of variety can sometimes make it hard to decide which units to take. Especially since some of the units in the Eldar army overlap, but, achieve their role in slightly different ways. And it's these 'slightly different ways' that can make or break the unit depending on your opponent. Some particular units are even useless or near-useless depending on your opponent.
Every unit fills a role. And is unadaptive. You can't manipulate any squad to do anything other than what it was designed to do (except Dire Avengers). And, in smaller point games where you can't afford to take every unit you want, you'll know that you're missing that unit. Because nothing else you have will be able to perform as well as the missing unit.
It's these missing units that make of most of the metal models that will be in your army. You'll need the metal models.
Individual Wraithguard units can often be prohibitively expensive in currency.
Taking too many Wraithlords in your army will have people crying for curdled dairy products. That is; Cheese. In lower point games, just one Wraithlord is enough for "OMG! Cheese!" cries.

Recommendation for Newbies: *** or ****. The Eldar army is an army where it's hard - but not impossible - to go wrong. With such a huge mandatory variety in models, an 'I want every unit' mindset (common in newbies) is actually beneficial to the Eldar army setup.

Dark Eldar (DE):

Spoiler

Like Eldar, but evil (there's an argument that Dark Eldar are more evil than 'regular Chaos'). But vastly different.
Pros: The Dark Eldar as just as fast and just as maneuverable - if not more - as their 'good' Eldar counterparts. Except pack a lot more firepower. Each and every unit is customisable (unlike Eldar) to attack different things. Splinter Cannons for killing Infantry and Dark Lances for popping tanks. And you can fit a lot of both in an army.
The Dark Eldar close combat portion of the army is nothing to be sneezed at either. The Dark Eldar Lord (home of the 2+ Invulnerable Save) and Incubi retinue is one of the single-deadliest close combat units in the game (the only one better this author can think of is Necron Pariahs). Wyches are also very good.
The Dark Eldar also posses Raiders. A Fast, Skimming, Open-Topped Transport vehicle. For some, this means putting a squad of Warriors in and flying them around the battlefield and shooting anything that moves thanks to being open-topped.
Because a Raider is also Fast, and Open-Topped, and some Dark Eldar Infantry are also Fleet, it means Dark Eldar are often capable of the 'First Turn Assault'. Given just how effective Dark Eldar assault units are, this can only end well.
Also being Open-Topped, it means that when (rarely if) the Raider is destroyed, it's occupants can bail out easier.
In the hands of someone who has played Dark Eldar a long time, the army is staggeringly effective.

Cons: Fragile. Fragile. Fragile. The Dark Eldar army is best described as 'shock and awe' (read the fluff ). The goal of the army is to butcher and hamstring the opponent as quickly and as brutally as possible. If it isn't blindingly obvious that the Dark Eldar are winning by Turn 3 or 4, then they probably wont win the battle at all. By turn 3 or 4, most of the Dark Eldar Raiders should be destroyed (if they're not, laugh), leaving the Dark Eldar to rely on their enormous Toughness of 3, or Jetbikes.
The Dark Eldar have huge reliance on their Raider transport vehicles. This will end up costing a fair bit of currency in the end as nearly every unit will need one for extra protection or speed.
A lot of (effective) Dark Eldar armies tend to look the same.
A lot of the models are old and/or 'not very pretty'. However, some people don't mind that they're 'not pretty', because they're Dark Eldar. They're not supposed to be attractive like 'good' Eldar.
Old Codex. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as the 3rd Ed. Dark Eldar Codex still stands up against recent 5th Ed. Codecies. It isn't bad...Just...Old. And it may or may not be missing out on some fun toys that the other races have been getting.

Recommendation for Newbies: ** or ***. The Dark Eldar are easy to learn, but hard to master. But, once mastered...The Dark Eldar tend to either win by a significant margin (often by Turn 3 or 4), or lose spectacularly (by Turn 5 or 6). If you don't like the models, you can always take regular Eldar, add spikes and make some really awesome conversions. But, doing this is hard.

Necrons:

Spoiler

Think The Terminator, or perhaps think of Undead metal skeletons. And you can think of the Necrons.
Pros: Some of the toughest basic Troops in the entire game.
Power Armour and Bolters. Except 'Necron Bolters' have a special version of Rending-but-not-quite, allowing them to wound Toughness 8 or better models or cause Glancing Hits to any vehicle. Including Land Raiders. Yes. The basic Troop type, with no options, can cause Glancing Hits against Land Raiders.
As well as their reasonable Toughness and 'Power Armour', they come with the We'll Be Back rule. Essentially your models can stand back up, even after they've been 'killed'. Like Undead. Or T-800s. Essentially, the Necrons are hard to kill. And sometimes don't even stay dead.
Warscythes - available to Necron Lords and Pariahs - are the best weapon in the entire game. Ignoring all saves - including Invulnerable Saves - and rolling 2D6 for Armour Penetration. Given that both Lords and Pariahs have Strength and Toughness 5, they can and will carve through almost anything put in front of them. Not even 'hard' units, that rely on 2+ armour and Invulnerable saves (like Space Marine Terminators) need to think twice about assaulting Pariahs.
The Necron army list is straightforward. You don't have to worry about whether to take Flamers or Plasmaguns. The unit is the unit. No fiddling necessary.
Most of the (useful) Necron model range is plastic. And also come at a high in-game points cost. For this reason, the Necrons are probably the cheapest army to buy when it comes to currency.
Necrons are extremely easy to paint.
The C'Tan. The Necrons are able to field near-literal Gods on the battlefield.
The Monolith. There's a legend that if you crack it open, it's full of cheese!
Disclaimer: Cheesegear does not endorse breaking your Necron Monolith to find out if cheese is inside it.

Cons: First and foremost, the Phase Out rule. When an arbitrary proportion of your army is destroyed, the Necron army automatically loses. Regardless of the mission being played, the opponent has the same objective; 'Kill them all'.
Certain units are able to mitigate Phase Out from happening. One of the best ways to do this is to take a lot of the cheaper - and less fun - units in the army. For this reason, a lot of (effective) Necron armies tend to look pretty boring and are always pretty similar.
The only real individuality to be found in the entire Necron army list is to be found on the Necron Lord. No other unit truly allows options except for whether to take grenades or not.
The Assault capabilities of the Necron army is pretty effective, but, minimal. Either being expensive in points (like the aforementioned awesome Pariahs) and/or are not Troops. The Necron list also has a profound lack of Power Weapons, which doesn't help. The only power weapons found in the Necron list are Warscythes, which are only found on the expensive units; Lords and Pariahs (please note that Warscythes are awesome, however).
Pariahs may be totally awesome, and perhaps the best unit in the game, but, they don't come with the Necron rule. Meaning, every Pariah you get for your army, means that you're one step closer to Phasing Out earlier.
The basic Necron Troop comes at a high points cost, for this reason, Necrons do not often do well in games that are less than 1000 points.
(Unless the opponent doesn't entirely know what they're doing, and doesn't know how to defeat We'll Be Back or force a Phase Out).

Recommendation for Newbies: The Necrons are a very straightforward list. Very few options to get confused about, and extremely easy to paint. Necrons are very much like the Dark Eldar. It's very easy to make a bad list. It's also very easy to make a completely devastating list if you know what you're doing.
* if you can't get your head around Phase Out or want a list that offers variety.
**** or even ***** if you're looking for an easy army to put together and paint. And you can get your head around Phase Out, and know how to make it less bad.

Tau:

Spoiler

With help provided by Nameless Ghost, Ricky S and Selrahc

Tau are the archetypal alien race. Very progressive technology and a near-utopic society. Also draws several parallels to Mechs and Exosuits - if you like that sort of thing.
Pros: Firepower. You want a really 'Shooty' army? You pick Tau.
Like Necrons and Space Marines, you actually can't go very far wrong with the 'normal' Troop choice; Fire Warriors. They have a decent save of 4+, so they aren't dying en masse to Bolter fire. And they boast the best base-Troop weapon in the game. Yes. Better than Bolters. Easily. Their Transport (Devilfish), similarly, for it's points cost is one of the best in the game. Second only to the Eldar Wave Serpent. You can field a very respectable army fielding nothing but Fire Warriors and Devilfish - just bring some anti-armour weapons.

HQ and Elites choices field some very respectable units in the form of Crisis Suits and Stealth Teams. Effectively your Mechs/Exosuits/Gears. With their ability to take a wide array of guns, on top of their ability to fire at multiple units at the same time, it makes them a very nice support unit for your Fire Warriors. Or, even a front-line squadron if you're brave enough. Crisis Suits also possess Jet Packs, rather than Jump Packs. Which is a really cool bonus to have. As it allows you to move in the Assault phase for move-shoot-move combos like Eldar Jetbikes.

Tau Heavy Support though is what you're really looking at. Broadsides are exactly what their name suggests if you're into Naval Warfare. Broadsides carry Railguns; High-strength guns designed to annihilate whatever they're pointed at. And they do it well too.
This author would be remiss if he didn't also mention Hammerheads. One of the better tanks in the game.

Cons: Tau fold like paper in Assault. What they do in Shooting, they lose out in Assault. Even worse than Necrons. Low Weapon Skill, low Toughness, low Initiative, and no access to Power Weapons or weapons that don't allow saves in Assault. Their decent armour saves them somewhat, but not much.

The Tau also have more than their fair share of 'trap' units. Which, outside of Themed Lists, don't actually do very well.
Like taking Kroot. Kroot are better in Assault than pretty much anything else in the army, but, that's not really saying much. You're best off with more Fire Warriors.
Ethereals are extremely good. But, your opponent will pretty much always target him first. And then he becomes a massive liability for your army.

Like Tyranids and Chaos Marines, it's kind of hard not to go overboard on Wargear options on your Crisis Suits, because they're all just so good. Leaving you fewer points to spend on Fire Warriors. Not only that, Crisis Suits are not Terminators, and don't do real well under fire.

Heavy Support choices are expensive in points. Problem is, if you don't take them, you're seriously missing out on some really impressive firepower options.

Recommendation for Newbs; *** The Battleforce is one of the better ones around, so long as you remember that the Kroot are essentially 'free'; If you didn't pay currency for them, you're under no obligation to use them. Replace them with Fire Warriors as soon as you can. The Tau way of battle also requires a lot of tactics to use well (similar to Eldar), in that you need to prioritise fire and occasionally you have no choice but to sacrifice the odd unit here and there. Tau often play very static roles, unless you shell out extra currency for Devilfish. Which isn't always the best thing in the world. And no. There really isn't a way around being bad at Assault. The best thing you can hope for is that you've shot the crap out of your enemy before they get there.

Chaos Daemons (Daemons, CDs)

Spoiler

Daemons. They come out of the Warp to eat your face. That's about all you need to know.
Pros: Chaos Daemons, as an army, possess some of the more powerful units in the game. Strong HQs, strong Elites, reasonably impressive Fast Attack, and some strong Heavy Support in the form of Soul Grinders and Daemon Princes.
The entire army is Invulnerable and sports Eternal Warrior and Fearless on every single unit except the Soul Grinder. But, as a Daemon, the Soul Grinder gets some pretty impressive things on its own. So, Power Weapons and other low AP ranged weapons don't really have any extra effect on Daemons. Your opponent is basically wasting points.
Very powerful Assault army if you can get it there. It only takes three or four models to wipe out an opposing unit of 10 even on a fairly average day.
Very fast army. A number of Beasts/Cavalry and Jump Infantry units, and the whole army Deep Strikes.
High diversity and distinctive imagery of all it's units.
Most of the army is plastic (or soon will be), which keeps currency costs low.

Cons: *Deep Breath* Well, deployment. Before any game even starts, you're at a disadvantage. You can't actually plan with Chaos Daemons. Before the game starts, divide your army in half. Half your army arrives on Turn 1 via Deep Strike, and the rest of the army trickles in over the rest of the game.

...The really annoying part, is that you don't actually get to pick which half you get on the first turn. The only way to make a 'plan' with Daemons, is to have symmetrical halves, so, no matter what comes down, you've got what you want. Which means, all that diversity in models goes out the window as you now need to duplicate every unit. Leading to 'cookie cutter' units. Which nobody really likes - unless you want that.

Yeah, the entire army arrives via Deep Strike and reserves. It's both good and bad, it's more often bad. Since Chaos Daemons have a real lack of shooting. The opposite of Tau, who have low Assault. But, due to Deep Striking, and the disallowance of Assault, your army will get shot at before you get to Assault with your units.

This is solved by 'agressive Deep Striking', which is ignoring terrain difficulties, and deploying as close to your enemy as you possibly can so you can Assault next turn. This means that you could take casualties from Difficult Terrain, and following Shooting phase from your opponent. To do this, you need lots of models, which costs currency.

The Codex - like Eldar - has a higher-than-normal amount of unit redundancy. Some of those diverse units that you like, just wont be taken because there are other units that can do the same job, better. Like Necrons, Daemons' Elites and Fast Attack choices are mostly just more powerful versions of the Troops units. Because of this reason, Daemons' Troops are pretty lackluster in comparison to everything else. Except that you have to take Troops...well, because they're your Troops. Which is even worse because those Troops units aren't exactly cheap in points.

With such a low save, Fearless is quite often a hindrance. And, unlike Orks or Tyranids, Daemons don't usually have the numbers to keep up a sustained losing-assault. But, Daemons don't usually lose Assault (even with such small unit sizes). So, you've got that.

Recommendation for Newbies: * The deployment rules are like nothing a new player would be able to deal with. Not to mention the complexity and tactics that you need with a Chaos Daemons army in order to win.
** If you really like the imagery and painting/conversion opportunities that Chaos Daemons presents.
Sadly, Daemons are more Cons than Pros unless you build your list a specific way. Which you - a new player - probably wont do.

Daemonhunters and Grey Knights (DHs, GKs): **

Witch Hunters and Sisters of Battle (WHs, SoBs): ***

Orks: *** to ***** depending on how much currency you have (horde army). Extra points because it's the more useful of the AoBR Starter Armies. So, a decent Ork army actually comes stock in the 'newbie box'.

Imperial Guard (IG): * to ***** depending on how much currency you have. A ***** IG army is the single-most expensive army in the entire game. Even more than Daemonhunters.
Imperial Guard Tanks.

Still to come;
Imperial Guard, Daemon and Witch Hunters and Orks.
These armies I have lot of experience with. Send PMs if you believe you have advice that I might leave out.

Actually looking for, or things I can't write myself;
More General Advice (I think I've covered most of it).

SEND PMs. Don't Derail Thread.
Please submit suggestions for additions to the guide to my PM box as to keep from derailing the thread. Also, try and keep it general. Specifics can be delved into after the aspiring player has picked an army.

Orks is next.

28.4.10 - Did Blood Angels
5.5.10 - Did an Imperial Guard vehicle comparison
8.5.10 - Did Space Wolves
8.6.10 - Did Chaos Daemons

We now return you to your scheduled program of
In the Grim Darkness of the Future...

[Myatar_Panwar]

So I have definitely got

60 shootas
60-80 Choppa Boyz (Mostly AoBR)
15 Bikers (10 of these are the old bikers, but they seem salvageable)
3 trukks (and 2 old ones, not sure what I am going to do with those yet)
6 coptas
10 Lootas
10~ Tank Bustas
Far too many nobs

Among all of this is also an assortment of random orky bits, including enough legs and torsos to make 30-40 ork bodies.

Not sure If I should take the easy way out and just turn those into boyz or not. I feel like I already have enough of those. Of course you can never have enough boyz, but I tend to like to finish games.

I am thinking of using 15 or so of the bodies on upgrading the old vehicles. Not sure if the models were all just really small back in the mid 90's, but for whatever reason the drivers/gunners are all like 3/4 the size of what are normal boyz now. And far more wimpy looking.

Thoughts? Anyone here worked with converting the old ork vehicles?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Orcs were basically completely redesigned for 40k 3rd edition/fantasy 6th edition. I have an army of old gorkamorka orcs who are the size of those vehicle crews.

Space Marines also got a bit bigger but that's mainy a case of their poses getting more dynamic exagerating a minor size increase.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Myatar_Panwar

Not sure if the models were all just really small back in the mid 90's, but for whatever reason the drivers/gunners are all like 3/4 the size of what are normal boyz now. And far more wimpy looking.

Thoughts? Anyone here worked with converting the old ork vehicles?

Yep. The old models are smaller. If I'm not mistaken, the Trukks and buggies and things actually date back to 2nd Ed. and GorkaMorka. The Ork players were screaming a long time before they finally got new Trukks.

Two guides I found helpful a long time ago;
Fixing Old Bikes.
Fix your Trukks.
These might not be helpful if everything is already glued together.

[Lycan 01]

>.>

<.<

Soooo... Y'know, there's places you can... y'know... mail spare Ork parts... Y'know, where they'll be put to good use by people that actually... y'know... need 'em.

Like, y'know... me.



But seriously, though, I've been so busy with schoolwork and family issues, I haven't even had time to work on my Orks. That battleforce is just sitting next to my desk... mocking me...



By the way, what's more effective on Nobs vs. power armored infantry? Twin-linked shootas, kombi-scorchas, or kombi-rokkits?

[Wraith]

To the OP: There's a typo in the thread title. It should read: "Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal DaRkness? I brought my flashlight." Unless there's an in-joke I missed, of course.

Cheesegear: Lovely summary as always, though can I recommend that next time we include some sort of glossary too? Things like 'cheese' are probably best explained under their own headings, along with Fluff, Crunch and so on.

That, and I always like to see a well-kitted out thread that starts with a definition of SMurfs and, by extension, a mention of Papa SMurf.

Anyways, enough prattle. I now have a fully-functional Space Marine army of my very own, barring about a dozen models I'm watching on eBay (Hooray!) but it seems that I have too much stuff (Boo!). While I have a strong idea of what I really ought to take out, I'd like some Playgrounders to offer their advice and see if we overlap, so to speak. Please?

Spoiler

HQ - Pedro Kantor's Twin Brother = 175
(Riding shotgun with one of the Sternguard units)

HQ - Master of the Forge
+ Conversion Beamer
+ 4x Servitors (2x Heavy Bolters) = 215
(Hanging around at the back, ruining the day of anyone he can see and looking after the tanks)

Elite - 10x Sternguard Veterans
+ 2x Combimeltas
+ Drop Pod & Deathwind Launcher = 290

Elite - 10x Sternguard Veterans
+ 2x Combimeltas
+ Drop Pod & Deathwind Launcher = 290

Elite - Ironclad Dreadnought
+ 2x Flamers
+ Drop Pod & Deathwind Launcher = 205

TROOP - 10x Tactical Marines
+ Missile Launcher & Plasma Gun
+ Razorback Transport w/Lascannons
+ HK Missile Launcher = 265

TROOP - 10x Tactical Marines
+ Missile Launcher & Plasma Gun
+ Razorback Transport w/Heavy Bolters
+ HK Missile Launcher = 230

TROOP - 10x Tactical Marines
+ Missile Launcher & Plasma Gun
+ Razorback Transport w/Heavy Bolters
+ HK Missile Launcher = 230

Heavy - Dreadnought
+ Missile Launcher
+ Assault Cannon = 125

Heavy - Dreadnought
+ Missile Launcher
+ Assault Cannon = 125

TOTAL: 2150

I'm looking to hit the magic 2000pts since that's a nice round number to play with in an average game, but I'm not looking for an all-conquering tournament list (yet).
In so far as spare models go, I have another 10x Tactical Marines (Missile Launcher + Plasma Gun intact), and enough bitz to equip the two Dreadnoughts with Lascannons, Multimelta and/or combat weapons if needs be.
Having said that, their presence (and by extension, the MotF) is non-negotiable, even if their weaponry is. A squad of (5) Grey Knight Terminators and/or (10) Grey Knights can also be provided, but I seriously doubt it'll get so desperate as to come to that.

On a slightly related note, are there really only 5 and a half Sternguard models in existence, if you include the combiweapon guy as being nearly 2 different models? Codex SM's has pictures of 6, but the GW Store says that it's lying....

The obvious solution is to just drop Kantor and spend the 25 points on something frivolous, but not only am I stuck as to what, but I do wuv him so.

[Mattarias, King.]

Well, uh, since this is a new thread, anyone mind taking a look-see at my list and maybe giving me some thoughts?

Spoiler

Canoness (Tags with Seraphim)
-Jump Pack
-Blessed Weapon
-Cloak of Saint Aspira
-Inferno Pistol (Master-crafted?)
130 Points

Sisters x 10
-Veteran Superior
--Brazier of holy Flame
--Bolt Pistol
--Book of St. Lucius
-Flamer x 1
-Hv. Flamer x1
159 Points

Sisters x 10
-Veteran Superior
--Brazier of Holy Flame
--Bolt Pistol
--Book of St. Lucius
-Flamer x 1
-Hv. Flamer x1
159 Points

Seraphim x 6
-Veteran Superior
--Brazier of Holy Flame
--Bolt Pistol
--Book of St. Lucius
-Hand Flamers x 2
186 Points

Dominions x 6
-Veteran Superior
--Power Weapon
--Combi-Melta
--Book of St. Lucius
-Meltas x 4
159 Points

^Immolator
-Holy Promethium
-Smoke Launchers
-Pintle-Mounted Storm Bolter
88 Points

+Grey Knights x5 (Teleport Squad)
+Incinerator
+Justicar
+150 Points

Total: 1031 Points

I haven't tried out the knights or dominions yet, but they look solid enough. I feel I might replace the troop superiors' pistols with actual bolters, maybe combi-bolters for more fire. I lost an extra attack in CC, but I have trouble actually getting that close anyways. :\

Any thoughts? The main army I fight is now Eldar. HATE scatter lasers...

I'm working on getting a couple rhinos for my troops. Ordered one off Ebay, likely going to pick up another one, or convert my immo into one until I get another. Either way, yeah, I need to get up close and personal...

The other armies I face are Tyranids, Tau, and IG, in that order or decreasing frequency. Teamed up with the Eldar player (My girlfriend) against them. 500 points each, 1000 for the 'nids. Swarmlord took down almost my whole army alone, taking only a couple wounds in the process. Ouch, melee...

Edit: Damn, that's what I get for taking forever to post.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Wraith

To the OP: There's a typo in the thread title. It should read: "Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal DaRkness? I brought my flashlight." Unless there's an in-joke I missed, of course.

...This is what happens when I don't make the OP.

Cheesegear: Lovely summary as always, though can I recommend that next time we include some sort of glossary too? Things like 'cheese' are probably best explained under their own headings, along with Fluff, Crunch and so on.

What do you mean 'next time'? There's an Edit button. I can add those things in whenever I like.
I might instead add a link to another site's Glossary. As writing up my own would take some time, and I'm fairly certain that there's a character limit to posts.

I'm looking to hit the magic 2000pts since that's a nice round number to play with in an average game, but I'm not looking for an all-conquering tournament list (yet).

Drop a Dreadnought and a few of those Hunter-Killers.

On a slightly related note, are there really only 5 and a half Sternguard models in existence,

Yes. You want variety? Make your own.

The obvious solution is to just drop Kantor and spend the 25 points on something frivolous

That's a terrible solution.

[Winterwind]

Originally Posted by Mattarias, King.

I haven't tried out the knights or dominions yet, but they look solid enough.

I don't know enough about the Sisters to give you actual advice on your list, but regarding Grey Knights... well, last Saturday my Chaos Lord (with Daemon Weapon) and 8 Berserkers (one a Skull Champion with Powerfist) assaulted a team of 5 Grey Knights with a Justicar.
Two turns later, there were 3 Grey Knights (including the Justicar) still standing, and my team had been eradicated. And no, the Chaos Lord did not roll a 1 for his attacks. >.>

(yes, that was atrociously bad luck on my end and atrociously good luck on my opponent's end, so it proves nothing at all, but I think it is rather hilarious )

[crazedloon]

Originally Posted by Mattarias, King.

Well, uh, since this is a new thread, anyone mind taking a look-see at my list and maybe giving me some thoughts?

Spoiler

Canoness (Tags with Seraphim)
-Jump Pack
-Blessed Weapon
-Cloak of Saint Aspira
-Inferno Pistol (Master-crafted?)
130 Points

Sisters x 10
-Veteran Superior
--Brazier of holy Flame
--Bolt Pistol
--Book of St. Lucius
-Flamer x 1
-Hv. Flamer x1
159 Points

Sisters x 10
-Veteran Superior
--Brazier of Holy Flame
--Bolt Pistol
--Book of St. Lucius
-Flamer x 1
-Hv. Flamer x1
159 Points

Seraphim x 6
-Veteran Superior
--Brazier of Holy Flame
--Bolt Pistol
--Book of St. Lucius
-Hand Flamers x 2
186 Points

Dominions x 6
-Veteran Superior
--Power Weapon
--Combi-Melta
--Book of St. Lucius
-Meltas x 4
159 Points

^Immolator
-Holy Promethium
-Smoke Launchers
-Pintle-Mounted Storm Bolter
88 Points

+Grey Knights x5 (Teleport Squad)
+Incinerator
+Justicar
+150 Points

Total: 1031 Points

why all the books? they are a waste of points.

drop the inferno pistol on the canoness it is too short range and she doesn't benefit from an extra attack due to the blade.

switch the pistols on all the superiors for combi weapons. The 2 shots are better than an extra attack when it comes down to faith points. Also you still gain the flame template.

your seraphim superior needs a power weapon to allow them to crack through heavier squads (particularly with the canoness in the unit as well)

otherwise does not look too bad and I will agree it needs some transports (otherwise you get shredded before you get to flame/rapidfire range)

[Mattarias, King.]

Originally Posted by Winterwind

I don't know enough about the Sisters to give you actual advice on your list, but regarding Grey Knights... well, last Saturday my Chaos Lord (with Daemon Weapon) and 8 Berserkers (one a Skull Champion with Powerfist) assaulted a team of 5 Grey Knights with a Justicar.
Two turns later, there were 3 Grey Knights (including the Justicar) still standing, and my team had been eradicated. And no, the Chaos Lord did not roll a 1 for his attacks. >.>

(yes, that was atrociously bad luck on my end and atrociously good luck on my opponent's end, so it proves nothing at all, but I think it is rather hilarious )

That is.. Pretty awesome. I love sweet luck/badassery stories like that. Thanks. My Sisters once took on a whole group of Orks that charged them and won without a single loss. It was glorious.

@Crazedloon: Arright, solid advice. The strategy for the seraphim/'ness is that she separates from the seraphim before they charge, so that they get Hit and Run. The 'ferno pistol is for blasting MCs, vehicles, and other lone threats before she charges in with her huge sword. Books I think I'll keep, because losing combat SUCKS. And yeah, as Cheesegear said, unmodified leadership is pretty sweet.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by crazedloon

why all the books? they are a waste of points.

Don't listen to this guy. Books are amazing. They give unmodified Leadership checks. You lose Assault by 5? Nope. Not a problem. The book makes it Unmodifiable.

Originally Posted by Winterwind

(yes, that was atrociously bad luck on my end and atrociously good luck on my opponent's end, so it proves nothing at all, but I think it is rather hilarious )

Grey Knights vs. Chaos? And you didn't know that would happen? Grey Knights make their own luck just by being on the table. My Knights have never failed me. Not once.

It's a shame that Grey Knight armies don't work in anything less than 2000 points.

Also good news; I can paint Metallic Non-Metals now (i.e; 'Shiny' Green or Purple)! So, I can start my idea of Knights Viridian.


EDIT: CRAPBUCKETS! Has anyone noticed that the 10-woman Sisters box and the 5-man (Power Armour) GK box have disappeared?

[Wraith]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

That's a terrible solution.

I know! I have no idea why I even suggested it, other than being too lazy to add-up everything again and cut a few points here and there. It won't happen again, I promise!

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Drop a Dreadnought and a few of those Hunter-Killers.

I really don't want to drop a Dreadnought if I can possibly help it - it's supposed to be an Iron Hands army, and without Razorbacks (Kardan Stronos loves them) and Dreads you'd never be able to tell.

I suppose one thing I could do is, instead of 20 Sternguard in 2 Drop Pods, I could take 15 in 3 and shunt the Ironclad into a Heavy slot. That'd save me about 90 points, plus another 60 if I scrap the Deathwind Launchers (which are really only there because I think they look cool).... Then the difference is just one HK Launcher or so. That might work, too?

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

EDIT: CRAPBUCKETS! Has anyone noticed that the 10-woman Sisters box and the 5-man (Power Armour) GK box have disappeared?

It was, sadly, inevitable. Games Workshop hates metal minis because the production costs are so high, especially for armies that very few people use.

On the plus side, that just makes it more and more likely that they'll be replaced with plastic sprues, which would require a new Codex in the not-too-distant future.....

[Mattarias, King.]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

EDIT: CRAPBUCKETS! Has anyone noticed that the 10-woman Sisters box and the 5-man (Power Armour) GK box have disappeared?

Yuuuup. I believe they've BEEN gone. Fortunately my FLGS had a few boxes left over. But yeah.. Hopefully this means a new codex/models sometime soon..

[Lycan 01]

Dissappeared? From the site? Not they haven't...

[Mattarias, King.]

Originally Posted by Lycan 01

Dissappeared? From the site? Not they haven't...

The UK site, I believe, is where they're gone from. Though it feels like a matter of time, honestly..

[† Dran †]

Haven't you heard Cheese, they are pulling that line of models until they update the codex. Which I think may be the next one out..

[crazedloon]

Originally Posted by Mattarias, King.

@Crazedloon: Arright, solid advice. The strategy for the seraphim/'ness is that she separates from the seraphim before they charge, so that they get Hit and Run. The 'ferno pistol is for blasting MCs, vehicles, and other lone threats before she charges in with her huge sword. Books I think I'll keep, because losing combat SUCKS. And yeah, as Cheesegear said, unmodified leadership is pretty sweet.

alright I will admit I totally didn't even think about the unmodified line.... (still stuck on 3rd edition CC rules which didn't have that problem so bad) so indeed they are worth it.

I still believe the points spent on the inferno pistol is better spent on a power weapon for the seraphim superior. The pistol is only usefull (i.e. double d6) at 3 inches which is such a wierd range to be in and I rarely find it happens, baring extravagant use of terrain to hop out of no where. The cannoness can also reach Strength 7 with an act of faith and get more attacks to deal with the same problems (And against vehicle hits rear armor) this is just my personal opinion of course but I have rarely found the pistol that useful due to the 6" range

[Talkkno]

Originally Posted by Wraith

It was, sadly, inevitable. Games Workshop hates metal minis because the production costs are so high, especially for armies that very few people use.

On the plus side, that just makes it more and more likely that they'll be replaced with plastic sprues, which would require a new Codex in the not-too-distant future.....

Or they could be squatted.

[Timberwolf]

Nahhhh, the Inquisition is really, really ingrained into the whole fabric of the story, unless there's a massive rebellion, which I can't see happening.

[Mattarias, King.]

Originally Posted by crazedloon

alright I will admit I totally didn't even think about the unmodified line.... (still stuck on 3rd edition CC rules which didn't have that problem so bad) so indeed they are worth it.

I still believe the points spent on the inferno pistol is better spent on a power weapon for the seraphim superior. The pistol is only usefull (i.e. double d6) at 3 inches which is such a wierd range to be in and I rarely find it happens, baring extravagant use of terrain to hop out of no where. The cannoness can also reach Strength 7 with an act of faith and get more attacks to deal with the same problems (And against vehicle hits rear armor) this is just my personal opinion of course but I have rarely found the pistol that useful due to the 6" range

You can't get more attacks using faith, but point... I guess I'll try it out. She still needs some form of shooty though, methinks. ...But yeah, power sword on the seraphim, sounds arright. I think I'll switch out all CCWs on superiors with eviscerators when facing 'nids. Maybe I can finally kill that swarmlord...

@Talkkno: HERESY!

But nah, seriously, they won't be squatted. That's just silly talk.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Cheesegear I must disagree with your assessment of Orks.
Nob Bikers are a very strong unit, yes, but they are not the only strong unit in the codex. Everything, with the exception of the Fast Attack selections, Flash Gits, and Tankbustas, is very points-efficient for its purpose, and the Deff Rolla is the most effective AT weapon in the game.
Also, Heavy Flamers don't really do much to Nobs. Makes them take their invul save instead of armour, but they still get Feel no Pain.
Really, the major problem with Orks is players who don't know what they're doing.
e: To expand on this, I listen to podcasts a lot of the time, and I hear things like "So I'm taking thirty Slugga Boyz with Rokkits and a Nob with a Power Klaw, and two groups of ten Shoota Boyz in Trukks", and "I really needed something to deal with light vehicles, so I decided to take five Deffkoptas with TL Rokkits", and "Well my Battlewagon with a Killkannon and Zzap Gun didn't really do much". When they're asked what they would have done differently to win (because, obviously, they lost), their response is always to do with tactics, while I silently scream "TAKE A DIFFERENT LIST".

[crazedloon]

Originally Posted by Mattarias, King.

You can't get more attacks using faith, but point... I guess I'll try it out. She still needs some form of shooty though, methinks. ...But yeah, power sword on the seraphim, sounds arright. I think I'll switch out all CCWs on superiors with eviscerators when facing 'nids. Maybe I can finally kill that swarmlord...

ah you misunderstood (my fault) what I meant is a canoness on the charge has more attacks than a single shot from a melta pistol almost to make the 1 shot irrelevant (particularly if you take into account the extra effort to get into the odd range of the weapon)

I would also only equip the serephim with the eviserator because the loss of the bolters range/template hurts (both of which makes use of faith better) on the other superiors who spend more time at range.

also you should get a litany of faith on your canonness whenever the points seem reasonable because more acts of faith are fantastic, particularly no roll one on a character who can move to the unit which need the act the most.

[Mattarias, King.]

Originally Posted by crazedloon

ah you misunderstood (my fault) what I meant is a canoness on the charge has more attacks than a single shot from a melta pistol almost to make the 1 shot irrelevant (particularly if you take into account the extra effort to get into the odd range of the weapon)

I would also only equip the serephim with the eviserator because the loss of the bolters range/template hurts (both of which makes use of faith better) on the other superiors who spend more time at range.

also you should get a litany of faith on your canonness whenever the points seem reasonable because more acts of faith are fantastic, particularly no roll one on a character who can move to the unit which need the act the most.

Aaah.. Well, you can shoot before charging, can't you? So why not get that extra high-strength hit? It seems kinda silly not to, especially if you're already within that range...

Can't get a litany due to the point limitation on wargear, but yeah, you have a point. Faith is delicious.

Good point on the seraphim though. Mm.

[crazedloon]

Originally Posted by Mattarias, King.

Aaah.. Well, you can shoot before charging, can't you? So why not get that extra high-strength hit? It seems kinda silly not to, especially if you're already within that range...

Can't get a litany due to the point limitation on wargear, but yeah, you have a point. Faith is delicious.

its more of an issue of point cost/efficiency issue, how often are you going to use that 1 shot? what could you get for the same points (example another flamer for the GK) IMHO there are better things to spend points on

you are well under you point limitation. Remeber that is 100 points available for wargear (found in the wargear part of the table ) in adition to 2 weapons. As of right now you only have 40 points of wargear

[Mattarias, King.]

Originally Posted by crazedloon

its more of an issue of point cost/efficiency issue, how often are you going to use that 1 shot? what could you get for the same points (example another flamer for the GK) IMHO there are better things to spend points on

you are well under you point limitation. Remeber that is 100 points available for wargear (found in the wargear part of the table ) in adition to 2 weapons. As of right now you only have 40 points of wargear

Uhmm.. No... I have.. 85, according to my math. Though that DOES mean I can get a Litany book now. Huh. Thanks. I guess I'm just really bad at this math stuff..

[crazedloon]

Originally Posted by Mattarias, King.

Uhmm.. No... I have.. 85, according to my math. Though that DOES mean I can get a Litany book now. Huh. Thanks. I guess I'm just really bad at this math stuff..

85 includes the cost of the weapons which are not part of the 100 point wargear limit.

the wargear section says (and I shall paraphrase a little becuase its a lot of text)
a character can have 2 weapons one of which can be 2 handed. You may also pick up to 100 points in wargear

[Mattarias, King.]

Originally Posted by crazedloon

85 includes the cost of the weapons which are not part of the 100 point wargear limit.

the wargear section says (and I shall paraphrase a little becuase its a lot of text)
a character can have 2 weapons one of which can be 2 handed. You may also pick up to 100 points in wargear

Oooooohhh... Well hot damn, I've been doing this wrong all along. Huh. Thanks. Maybe now I should give her a Mantle of Ophelia as well.. Did I mention the Scatter Lasers suck?

But yeah, hot damn, thanks.

Themoreyouknow.jpg

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Wraith

I suppose one thing I could do is, instead of 20 Sternguard in 2 Drop Pods, I could take 15 in 3 and shunt the Ironclad into a Heavy slot. That'd save me about 90 points, plus another 60 if I scrap the Deathwind Launchers (which are really only there because I think they look cool).... Then the difference is just one HK Launcher or so. That might work, too?

Sounds like a plan.

It was, sadly, inevitable. Games Workshop hates metal minis because the production costs are so high, especially for armies that very few people use.

Wait, what? Metal models are less expensive to make. That's why the whole range used to be metal. The quality and durability is better though and that's why they price gouge.

Plastic models are only good for consumers (us). And it makes us want to buy them. Hence the recent move into mass-plastic armies. Again, it takes them so long to do plastic moulds because of the sheer amounts of parts involved (whoever designs sprue-moulds is a genius) and the cost.
Of course, a plastic mould will pay for itself, given time 'cause everyone will buy it. But, the initial capital involved is quite high.

Originally Posted by Ninja Chocobo

Nob Bikers are a very strong unit, yes, but they are not the only strong unit in the codex. Everything, with the exception of the Fast Attack selections, Flash Gits, and Tankbustas, is very points-efficient for its purpose, and the Deff Rolla is the most effective AT weapon in the game.

Points-efficient != Overpowered. The entire discussion started because Winterwind said 'some other forum' said Orks were on the same tier as Infantry Guard. Which is ridiculous.

Tankbustas are pretty bad though. Even if they are at cost.

Really, the major problem with Orks is players who don't know what they're doing.

This. As I said, I consider the plain old Shoota Boyz to be the unit in the Codex. A lot of high-end players just use Boyz, Boyz and more Boyz (and everyone has at least one unit of Shootas). As while Nobs might be super-effective, just about everyone - and their dog - knows how to take them out. And, Nobz cost a lot of points. As Tabling/Totaling the opponent is not always viable.