GitP Conworlding/Worldbuilding Project - Language Thread

[Maximum Zersk]

Main Project Thread is here.

Welcome to the Giant in the Playground Conworlding Project Language Thread.

What is this about? Well, linguistic discussion was taking up a large part of the thread. So the idea was offered that we make a thread mainly for language, as to not scare away others.

Now, currently we are working on the Northern River Sharlaq Proto-Language, which we can then make other languages off of.

Soon, I will post up the information I have accumulated.

Now, linguistics time!

Relevant Documents:

Grammar

[Szilard]

I always thought the word kufe would be a cool replacement for the word life. Though I only think that because it was a typo I once made and I ran with it.

[ref]

The 'One Left' typo, eh?

[Tulio d Bard]

Well, most people here won't know what I'm talking about (wait for MK's update on the first post), but how are the new 3rd Declension's Vowels going to be (I didn't check the others, but I guess they're okay)?

[Maximum Zersk]

Originally Posted by Tulio d Bard

Well, most people here won't know what I'm talking about (wait for MK's update on the first post), but how are the new 3rd Declension's Vowels going to be (I didn't check the others, but I guess they're okay)?

I just changed them into unrounded vowels.

[Maximum Zersk]

And bam, here's what I've got recorded for the Northern River-Sharlaq Proto-Language right now.

Right here.

[Maximum Zersk]

The Dreaded Third Post, sorry.

Anyway, I have an idea. What if we had a negative at the end of the sentence? Like Japanese? (I have no idea if any other languages use that. ) So if you wanted to say, for example, "I didn't eat an apple", you would say, "Eat I an apple didn't." Sound good to you guys?

Also, thinking more about the numbers. I'm thinking about one for "none", one for "single", one for "indefinite even", and one for "indefinite odd." How does this sound? So, let's say you didn't want to eat some apples. You would say "Eat I [indefinite odd] apple didn't", or something to that effect.

Also, how should we go about working on the words, when we get to them?

[Tulio d Bard]

Originally Posted by Maximum Zersk

The Dreaded Third Post, sorry.

Anyway, I have an idea. What if we had a negative at the end of the sentence? Like Japanese? (I have no idea if any other languages use that. ) So if you wanted to say, for example, "I didn't eat an apple", you would say, "Eat I an apple didn't." Sound good to you guys?

Could be.

Originally Posted by Maximum Zersk

Also, thinking more about the numbers. I'm thinking about one for "none", one for "single", one for "indefinite even", and one for "indefinite odd." How does this sound? So, let's say you didn't want to eat some apples. You would say "Eat I [indefinite odd] apple didn't", or something to that effect.

Wait, why should we make things different if the number is even (not divisible by two) or odd (divisible by two)?
Yeah, I didn't get what "indefinite even/odd" means...

Originally Posted by Maximum Zersk

Also, how should we go about working on the words, when we get to them?

Now, THAT's a good question...
I'll try to learn something on phonetics first. I guess it will be pretty important.

[Maximum Zersk]

Wait, why should we make things different if the number is even (not divisible by two) or odd (divisible by two)?
Yeah, I didn't get what "indefinite even/odd" means...

_OOOOO_
O\(O.o)/ Don't know, just thought of it on impulse. So, how bout Null, Singular, and Plural, then? Does that sound good?

Now, THAT's a good question...
I'll try to learn something on phonetics first. I guess it will be pretty important.

I remember reading something on a Conlanging post saying that you should go about in the order that they learn about the object. For example. the word for "fire" would coming before "making fire."

[ref]

Yeah, that makes sense. Also, we should define the syllable structure, and then build words from that. Common words should be short, one or two syllables. Except when they are related to other simple words. For instance, riverkin may have a word for 'water', and the word for 'sea' coming from 'harmful' and 'water' stuck together, because salt water might be harmful for them. The double word has evolved slightly, and although you can recognize the origins as 'harmful water', it is no longer two words but one. Like if it was "watermful", for instance.

[Maximum Zersk]

Well, this is just a Proto-language, so we don't need to worry about language evolution yet. We'll get to that soon enough.

The syllable structure is CVC. So Consonant-Vowel-Consonant. I'm thinking that the first Consonant won't be mandatory. How does that sound?

I think that the first words to think of would be "water", "to see", and "to swim." Considering they are some of the first things that the Sharlaq will do in their lives, they'll come first.

I'm thinking a bit. I'll post up some words as I think of them.

[ref]

ok, so [C]VC it is. Yeah, those are good first words. They may end up use 'swim' are our 'go'. Plus, of course, words for themselves.

[Maximum Zersk]

I thought the same thing, having the word "to go" and "to swim" as the same thing.

Now let's see here...

Water; Jiqq, Feminine.
Forms of Jiqq would be: Jiqqsil, Jiqqech/Jiqqekh, Jiqqtsik, Jiqqching/Jiqqkhing, Jiqqech/Jiqqekh.

Man, Romanization's a pain. Anyway, the "J" is pronounced like other European languages: like a "Y". And the ch is pronounced German style. Like "Kh". I made the word one syllable long, so it doesn't get too big.

Anyway, moving on.

Crap, I just remembered. We can't work on verbs until we've figured out how we're going to do tense.

[Tulio d Bard]

Yeah, we should really think about the other lexical classes we have (which are they and how they work).

Besides naming first the things they do first, we could also name what the elders want them to learn first (gods, people [sharlaq, isn't it?], brother, etc.).

[Maximum Zersk]

I'm thinking of the standard ones; nouns, pronouns, verbs, adjective, adverbs, pre/postpositions, conjunctions, articles, etc.

I've heard of conlangs that get rid of one of those classes. Don't know how to do it, though.

I'll make a verb conjugation chart later.

[ref]

Usually by having another category double up. For instance, a conlang may avoid adjectives like "red", instead having a verb "to red". "This car reds", "The table redded, but we painted it and now it blacks", "The traffic lights are redding" (because it's temporary), so on.

I'm not sure this fits with any of our races. For verbs, what tenses are we gonna have? some conlangs have multiple pasts and futures. For instance, Sharlaq could have "past", "immediate past" (like, in the last hour or so, or maybe less. If something else big enough happened in between then it's no longer immediate past), "present", and "future".

Highly technical gnomes, when we get to them, can get a full spectrum like ancient, distant past, recent past, yesterday, earlier today, immediate past, present, immediate future, tomorrow, in the next week, future, eventual future. Or something like that.

The cool thing of conlangs is that one can experiment a lot, hehe.

Back to Sharlaq, since it's agglutinative, then aspect (swam vs was swimming vs had swam) could be a different modifier.

Jitsech = to swim (derived from Jiqq)
Jitsechkul = swim(s)
Jitsechtak = swam
Jitsechkulol = is swimming
Jitsechtakol = was swimming.
Jitsechtakach = had swam
Jitsechtakolach = had been swimming

[Maximum Zersk]

I don't really understand the difference. What is the difference between perfect and non-perfect, progressive and non-progressive exactly?

[ref]

Perfect shows the action is over, while non-perfect means it was on-going. Basically:

I ate this morning (I'm not eating now, but I was eating at the time I'm talking about)
I had eaten already (I had finished eating before the time I'm talking about. The action was already complete, perfect)
I was eating when the phone rang (I started eating before the phone rang, and I finished eating after that. The action was in progress)

[Cealocanth]

Originally Posted by Maximum Zersk

The Dreaded Third Post, sorry.

Anyway, I have an idea. What if we had a negative at the end of the sentence? Like Japanese? (I have no idea if any other languages use that. ) So if you wanted to say, for example, "I didn't eat an apple", you would say, "Eat I an apple didn't." Sound good to you guys?

Yoda you are?

I actually have no idea what you're talking about here but I can't pass up a chance to say that. If this is about a new language, I've always found the way that Hebrew doesn't use vowels in everyday script at all. Perhaps that can be incorporated.

[Maximum Zersk]

Originally Posted by Cealocanth

Yoda you are?

I actually have no idea what you're talking about here but I can't pass up a chance to say that. If this is about a new language, I've always found the way that Hebrew doesn't use vowels in everyday script at all. Perhaps that can be incorporated.

The abjad? I've heard of those, yes. (In fact, I have to read a Semi-Abjad at least thrice a week.)

Seems interesting. We'll get to that when it comes to writing system, though.

[Tulio d Bard]

There's one thing I always mess up here. Are our crocs pacific or aggressive? I believe it affects the language somehow. Aggressive would have more future tenses than past ones (focus on the future actions) and pacific would have more past tenses (focus on the history). It's just an opinion.

And what are the grammatical persons (?) we'll have and which persons (?) will have different verb conjugations?

[Maximum Zersk]

Originally Posted by Tulio d Bard

There's one thing I always mess up here. Are our crocs pacific or aggressive? I believe it affects the language somehow. Aggressive would have more future tenses than past ones (focus on the future actions) and pacific would have more past tenses (focus on the history). It's just an opinion.

And what are the grammatical persons (?) we'll have and which persons (?) will have different verb conjugations?

The Sharlaq are largely pacific, so the tenses would be more past.

I'll work on a table of persons and conjugation.

[Maximum Zersk]

Okay, Conjugation table time.

	Singular	Plural
First	-ak	--
Second	-ach	--
Third	-att	--

Does this seem good? The plural would be the same as the singular. One would have to tell from context.

Some Tenses.

Ancient Past, Moderate Past, Recent Past, Present, Future.

[Tulio d Bard]

Originally Posted by Maximum Zersk

Okay, Conjugation table time.


Does this seem good? The plural would be the same as the singular. One would have to tell from context.

Some Tenses.

Ancient Past, Moderate Past, Recent Past, Present, Future.

I think we can try it with no plurals.
What's the difference between -ak and -ach pronunciation?

[Maximum Zersk]

Ach is pronounced with the english ch. It's getting a bit confusing, so I'm going to reorganize the romanization.

[Tulio d Bard]

Originally Posted by Maximum Zersk

Ach is pronounced with the english ch. It's getting a bit confusing, so I'm going to reorganize the romanization.

I see. I should really spend some time learning phonemes...

[Maximum Zersk]

Okay, verb time.

To swim, to move; Jeqq
To speak; Keng
To see; Seh
To breath; Nots
To listen; Qey
To be; Shul

And pronouns.

First-person singular; Tet
Second-person singular; Erget
Third-person singular; Shur

First-person plural; Tetnij
Second-person plural; Ergetnij
Third-person plural; Shurnij

EDIT: So a sentence may look like:

Tetlaq sehak jiqekh. (I see water.)

EDITEDIT: Whoops! Grammar mistake!

Here's a fixed sentence.

Sehak tetlaq jiqekh.

[Maximum Zersk]

Moar wurds.

Nouns

English	Sharlaq	Gender		English	Sharlaq	Gender		English	Sharlaq	Gender
Fire	Tsun	Neuter		Head	Nang	Masculine		Flow
Sky	Chal	Masculine		Hand	Ngiol	Feminine		Spring
Clouds	Het	Neuter		Tail	Terat	Neuter		Summer
Sea	Jiqqtill	Masculine		Mouth	Kengnang	Masculine		Fall
Order	Adqan	Neuter		Arm	Tsaiar	Masculine		Winter
Chaos	Tsinadqan	Neuter		Leg	Shot	Neuter		Tree
Male	Ngoin	Masculine		Foot	Nok	Neuter		Animal
Female	Khar	Feminine		Stomach	Tsouh	Feminine		Magic
Child	Shar	Feminine		Chest	Arget	Masculine
Land	Etsat	Masculine		Eye	Sehneken	Feminine
River	Etsatjiqq	Feminine		Snout/Nose	Edetneken	Neuter
Rain	Chaljiqq	Neuter		Light	Oidul	Neuter
Island	Jiqqtilletsat	Masculine		Shadow	Dene'oidul	Neuter
Small Island	Jiqqtsintilletsat	Masculine		Sun	Etairajoqqul	Feminine
Creek	Tsintilletsatjiqq	Feminine		Moon	Denetairajoqqul	Masculine
Past	Otsten	Masculine		Day	Etaira	Feminine
Future	Eten	Feminine		Night	Denetaira	Masculine
Seer	Etensehsharlaq	Feminine		Star	Joqqul	Neuter

Adjectives

English	Sharlaq
Big	Atill
Small	Tsintill
Hot	Tseqq
Cold	Tsintseqq
Fast	Dek
Slow	Tsindek
Far	Aik
Close	Tsinaik
Blind	Denseh

Verb

English	Sharlaq
To live	Altateq
To die	Denaltateq
To hear	Aeqateq
To eat	Qqenteq
To drink	Jiqqenteq

Articles

English	Sharlaq
The (Definite Article, Masculine)	Jash
The (Definite Article, Feminine)	Jesh
The (Definite Article, Neuter)	Josh
A (Indefinite Article, Masculine)	Ajash
A (Indefinite Article, Feminine)	Ajesh
A (Indefinite Article, Neuter)	Ajosh

Postpositions

English	Sharlaq
Above	Khoin
Under	Denakhoin
Within	Terdoin
Without	Denaterdoin
Beside	Choin
Behind	Denajoin
In front	Join
To	Qoin
From	Toroin

Sentence example.

The man sees under the sun.

Sees the man the sun under.

Sehatt jash ngoinlaq jesh Etairrajoqqulkhing denakhoin.

[Tulio d Bard]

Wow, you advanced things a lot now!

Then we have the following endings:

• Nouns: -sil, -qekh, -tsik, -khing, -qqeh, -laq, -yal, -chaaq, -ngil, -was, -ruk, -hokh, -nuqq, -ur, -onguk;
• Verbs: -ak, -ach, -att (we only have present tense until now);
• Postpositions: -oin;

We also have the Hak- prefix for plural nouns, the infix -nij- (between the stem and the declension suffix) for plural pronouns, and the prefix Dena- for opposite postpositions.
All the articles have an -sh ending and indefinite articles have an A- prefix, although there is no problem using them in other words (I guess).

The Tsin particle indicates "opposite" and Dene means something like "night version".

Are pronouns normally declined (according to gender)?
Is there any reason for all those -teq verb endings or were you just making things simpler?
Does "Beside"/"Choing" have this ending "g"?

Shouldn't we decline Etairrajoqqul as Locative, making it Etairrajoqqulkhing?

Just say if I got anything wrong here.

[Maximum Zersk]

Originally Posted by Tulio d Bard

Wow, you advanced things a lot now!

Then we have the following endings:

• Nouns: -sil, -qekh, -tsik, -khing, -qqeh, -laq, -yal, -chaaq, -ngil, -was, -ruk, -hokh, -nuqq, -ur, -onguk;
• Verbs: -ak, -ach, -att (we only have present tense until now);
• Postpositions: -oin;

We also have the Hak- prefix for plural nouns, the infix -nij- (between the stem and the declension suffix) for plural pronouns, and the prefix Dena- for opposite postpositions.
All the articles have an -sh ending and indefinite articles have an A- prefix, although there is no problem using them in other words (I guess).

Basically Right.

The Tsin particle indicates "opposite" and Dene means something like "night version".

Generally. Tsin indicates opposite, yes. Dene means "lack of".

Are pronouns normally declined (according to gender)?

Yep. If the gender is unknown, neuter is used.

Is there any reason for all those -teq verb endings or were you just making things simpler?

They were meant to show infinitives. It's something I've noticed while learning German. Verb Infinitives will end in -en. Segeln, Haben, Moechten, etc.. Only the Irregular verbs would be different.

Does "Beside"/"Choing" have this ending "g"?

Oh, yeah, didn't notice that.

Shouldn't we decline Etairrajoqqul as Locative, making it Etairrajoqqulkhing?

Oh, whoops.

I'll fix the mistakes, then.