D&D 3e/3.5e/d20The forum for conversations specifically related to the rules and procedures of Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition, 3.5 Edition, or any fantasy game using the d20 system or a variant thereof (commercially published or not).
Hello, I am an angry man.
Perhaps you too, are angry? Bitter? Seeking some sort of vindication in a large world spiraling oddly away from you?
~Jake, Summer, 09
Crack open that tube full of dice.
Like the similarly named Test of Might run by the altogether-better-person Akuma, this is a thread about explorations of the further edges of game performance. We will be running a slightly altered rules set, for which I have reserved a post below this one. The crux of the challenge is that you are presented with a dungeon and must navigate through its preliminary challenges to kill each other. I hear this is a popular past-time.
First, players must survive a 1v1 or 2v2 match against a willing opponent.
Hence the name, test of spite. Your punishment for seeking satisfaction through violence will become apparent thereafter.
Surviving players will be released into the PvP dungeon section which exists as a subset of Ravenloft. There, they must make the necessary allegiances, preparations, or other decisions regarding who they will work with in an effort to reach the center of the arena where they will be tested against each other in mortal combat. The Dark Powers that run this arena are not amused by attempts to throw the game, however, so be prepared for serious OOC bargaining to get your ingame toon eaten by the hounds of tindalos. Naturally, warnings will be provided.
Upon navigation of the dungeon, you will reach the final arena, where matches may be 1v1 or 2v2 as negotiated in game. Victory will register you as the current incumbents, and you may rest before facing the onslaught of other people who complete the dungeon. Three victories allows you to escape Ravenloft, and with it, the arena.
Sign-ups can be done here, but primarily this is a thread for the comments and questions.
Starting level is 13th, with full EWL as per 135 in the DMG.
All WotC books allowed barring contraindication in the rules provided below.
Infinite loops are permitted to trigger precisely once, after which your character will be killed by the hounds of tindalos.
Make sure it was worth it.
Those who get an infinite loop past me during character creation will receive special mention in the halls of honor.
Attempts to use the infinite loop in either the final arena or the starting arena will result in summary consumption by hungry hungry hound dogs, but you will receive a commendation in the halls of honor, though your opponent will be counted as victorious if it is a 1v1.
A quick summary of the tier ranking system, colloquially..
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olo Demonsbane
Here's the ToS Tier System as I remember it:
Tier -2: Pun Pun
Tier -1: An unbeatable build.
Tier 0: An effectively unbeatable build, though it can actually be beaten by the higher Tiers.
Tier .5: A build that can probably only be beaten if you have specifically prepared for it. Example: Sofawall's Cube build.
Tier 1: A build that has many effective tricks, insanely high defenses, and can end most encounters in a round. Example: A very effectively played Batman wizard.
Tier 2: Multiple great tricks and great defenses. Where I usually build for. Example: A CoDzilla or a Warmarked.
Tier 3: A build that either has one great trick or a lot of moderately good ones, while still having stellar defenses. Example: A well made Warblade, a good tripper, or a buff focused Sorcerer.
Tier 4: A build that, while still having a trick or two, has fallen very short on the defensive side of the line or has great defenses without being able to defeat an opponent on its own very easily. Example: A Charging Fighter or a VoP Monkadin.
Tier 5: A build that, while attempting to be optimized, still has neither good defenses nor a worthwile trick. Example: A typical fighter.
Tier 6: A build that *twitch* chooses feats for flavor reasons *twitch*
Arena Format
There are three major choices involved in the opening arena segment. These are on a match-by-match basis. |_____________________________________|
First:
You may opt to use the swapping terrain placement schema used by most war-games to generate an arena.
You may opt to have me randomly generate an arena.
You may opt to have a standard and known arena used.
Second:
You may opt to have no buffs active.
You may opt to have all-day buffs active, with All-Day buffs being those with longer than 12 hours duration.
You may opt to have prepared for the encounter in general terms.
You may opt to ask three questions, specific, as per Contact Other Plane, about the opposition, and prepare all-day buffs accordingly. This option is not recommended. It is provided for the sake of completeness.
Third:
You may opt to disallow summons and called or bought creatures.
You may opt to disallow the above during the buff rounds.
You may opt to allow the above during buff rounds and declare the allowance thereof.
Finally:
Each set of opposition may come to a consensus about these options.
You may yield one set of choices at random to the opposition.
You may place your fate in my terrible clutches.
3.51 Rules Updates
The following are the character generation rules for the Test of Spite.
Help with optimization is available. Please do not be intimidated by the list of changes |_____________________________________|
You begin with 78k XP, sufficient to place your level at 13th.
HP is Max for first level, then average HP.
No Fractional BAB or Saves
Up to 1 Trait and 2 flaws
No Action Points.
No LA above +1.
28 Point buy.
Any XP spent is deducted from your total.
As such, your total class levels will reflect this.
XP will be gained during your stay
LA Buy-off allowed.
3.51 Fix and Ban List
Spoiler
The Great Rules:
Spoiler
Per round, no more than the following is permitted:
Two full round actions Or three full attacks per character
Three Standard actions per character
Three Move actions per character
Two Swift actions per character
Thirty Free actions per character
Immediates count against your maximum of swifts
Per round, no more than the following is permitted per minion, familiar, or companion:
One full round action.
Two Standard actions.
Two Move actions.
One Swift actions.
Ten Free actions.
Immediates count against the maximum of swifts
General :
Spoiler
You may gain membership benefits from only one organization with mechanical benefits. If the organization possesses an Affiliation score mechanic, you are treated as a member of rank two (2).
Aasimar and similarly all native outsiders do not grant weapon proficiencies for the purposes of class qualification.
Rebuilding rules are banned as variants.
Greensnake Naga's telepathy is considered to have a 30 foot range for the purposes of mindsight.
Dragonlance's dragonspawn templates are banned.
Ghostwalk's LA+0 ghost template is banned, unless your opponent is also using it.
Feats, abilities, and other benefits granted by spells or items may not be used to fulfill any requirement. This excludes Psychic Reformation and similar instantaneous effects.
All forms of awaken are banned.
Splitting and similar effects copy only the item, not positive effects currently on it.
Due to the ongoing interference of the Dark Powers, divinely granted templates are not permitted in ravenloft, and all who have them are stripped of them, with the exclusion of saint which they rightly find hilarious.
Undead are not immune to mind-affecting spells.
Kobolds may not qualify for lore-drake.
Dusk Giants do not exist.
Gem Magic, from Magic of Faerun, is banned.
Each character may use only one magical location.
Mention of the sarrukh should be followed by your home address ;)
Shambling mounds do not exist.
You may not order a creature or player to fail a save in any fashion.
Initiate of Mystra is banned. Really. Really. Banned.
Pazuzu does not exist.
You may have one clone, and it must be on Ravenloft. Clones are 14k.
The Far Realms do not exist.
Creation of hive-minds through any mechanism is banned.
Time Travel is soft-banned, in that where-ever you travel to, the hounds will be there. Temporal regression is permitted, but long chains ( x>2 ) are not. Time Hop and similar are permitted.
Faustian Pacts, as described in FCII, are banned.
Bonus hit dice are not counted when leveling up or retraining, nor are they counted by Psychic Reformation and similar effects.
Lost levels restored by Restoration and similar effects must be in the same class or classes in which they were originally taken.
Source Material
Spoiler
Iron Kingdoms material is allowed on a case by case basis.
Dragon and Dungeon Magazine are banned.
Serpent Kingdoms is approval-only material.
Savage Species is approval-only material.
Stronghold Builder's Guide is banned.
Unearthed Arcana :
Spoiler
The following takes the form of an allow list, rather than a ban list.
Flaws and traits.
Variant classes.
Additional Favored Class feat.
Racial paragons.
LA Buy-off.
I may have forgotten things previously allowed. Please ask if you are curious.
q_____________________________________p
Base Classes :
Spoiler
Fighter is banned, excluding dungeoncrasher.
Erudite is banned.
Domain wizards are banned.
Monk is full-bab.
Unarmed swordsage is legal.
All druids are aspect druids as per UA. In addition, all sources of wild shape are banned.
Swordsages gain adaptive style as a bonus feat at level 4. Swordsages also get 6x skill points at first level, despite it being a clear error. Just too cool to take away.
Clerics are not alignment locked.
All clerics are cloistered clerics.
Artificers may only shuffle bonuses between enhancement, insight, and competence.
1d2 crusaders do not exist.
Archivists are limited to the following sources for spells known at start:
Spoiler
Domain lists, Cleric, Druid, Shugenja, Ranger, Paladin, Healer, Adept.
Other divine casters by permission
Banned:
Runescarred Berserker list
Arcane spells turned into divine scrolls by means not covered or permitted by the above.
Focused specialists do not exist.
All prepared casters start with at minimum one spell scribed per level.
Prepared casters should buy every spell they expect to need. Getting more will be ludicrously difficult.
Prestige Classes :
Spoiler
Subverted Psion is banned.
Ultimate Magus cannot progress the same class twice.
If it would do so at a given level, it offers only one level of progress instead. Consider this to be the general rule in similar cases.
Vermin Lord is banned.
Spelldancer is banned.
Walker in the Wastes is banned.
The Magic of Hunger secret of the Black Robes Wizard of High Sorcery is banned.
Arcane Archers may use crossbows.
Rainbow Servant raises caster level as per the text, not the table, with the exception of first and fourth level. In other words, it is a 8/10 casting class.
Planar Shepherd is banned.
Master of Many Forms is impossible to qualify for, or ought to be, and is banned.
Master Transmogrist is impossible to qualify for, or ought to be, and is banned.
Ruby Knight Vindicators may gain only one additional swift action per turn.
Tainted scholar and tainted sorcerer are both banned until a suitable fix is suggested.
Dweomerkeeper is banned.
Cancer mage is banned.
Incantatrix is banned.
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil's veils duplicate the effect of layers, rather than the effects of the whole spell, and are thus subject to dispelling and AMF. Beyond this, the class is unchanged.
Feats :
Spoiler
Epic feats are banned.
Retraining is not permitted except in extraordinary cases where a feat becomes useless.
Lightning Maces is now banned.
Use of body fuel is exhibition only and requires an announce.
Sanctum Spell does not apply for determining if you can affect a spell with items or spells.
Battle Jump is banned.
Adaptive style refreshes your maneuvers.
Mortalbane does not allow stacking uses. Arcane strike does not allow stacking uses. This should be considered precedent.
Item familiars are banned.
Greenbound Summoning is banned.
Mercantile background is banned.
Uncanny forethought is banned.
Arcane thesis affects only the first applied metamagic.
Leadership, Undead Leadership, Thrallherd, and Dragon Cohort are banned. Similar or derivative effects are also banned.
Legendary locations that grant feats are unilaterally excluded from serving as pre-requisites. You may only use one per character.
Extra spell is not list specific, but may be taken precisely once and with DM approval.
Reserves of Strength is banned.
Rapid-strike is banned.
Craft Contingent Spell has double XP costs, these cannot be reduced, and may produce only three contingent spells at a time. The conditions must be as or more exact than contingency normally requires, but no proofing assistance will be offered.
Twin Spell and Twin Power are banned.
Spells, Spell-Like Abilities, Maneuvers, and Powers
Spoiler
Teleportation subschool is now part of the evocation school.
Enchantment and Abjuration are now one school.
Polymorph, alter self, metamorphosis, and all derivatives not specifying a single shape are likewise banned.
Genesis is banned.
Metaconcert is banned.
Use of Body Outside Body must be announced clearly and is exhibition only.
Use of When Two Become One will see you eaten by the hounds.
Beastland Ferocity is banned, being useless except in conjunction with delay death.
Wish is replaced in all ways by Miracle.
Consumptive Field and its derivatives are now banned pending a rewrite.
Forced Dream is banned.
Love's Pain is banned.
Planar Binding and direct derivatives are banned.
Planar Ally and direct derivatives are banned.
Command Undead is banned.
Psionic Lion's Charge now has a duration of one round as intended, instead of the ridiculously stupid instantaneous duration it possessed.
Iron Heart Surge is banned pending a re-write.
Mirror Move is banned.
Explosive runes is banned.
Gate can no longer be used to call or summon.
Energy Transformation Field is banned.
Epic spells are banned.
Leech Ghost Skill is banned.
SLAs are not free of expensive or somatic components.
Embrace\Shun The Dark Chaos is permitted, but cannot be done during character creation. If you can pull it off in the dungeon or the arenas, my commendations await.
Glyph Seals do not accept personal range spells.
There are no free wishes.
Starmantle Cloak and evasion do not stack.
Contingency cannot be cast from a ring of spell storing.
For any ability which creates a contingent effect: All choices normally made at the completion of casting/manifesting/etc must be made when the contingency is created.
Ice assassin's material components cannot be obviated in any fashion.
Anything you bring in via planar binding or ally cannot leave, and will be incredibly angry about this.
Dweomer of Transference only converts spells cast by its caster.
Fusion is banned.
The spell Power Leech is banned.
Simulacrum is banned.
Fimbulwinter is banned.
Mindblank and all derivatives are subject to a caster level check at a penalty dependent on available information.
The Locate Cities trick does not work.
Planeshift does not work, as you are trapped in Ravenloft.
Contact Other Plane and similar effects that use a consultation with a higher power always reach the Dark Powers instead of the intended target. While ungood, this does not negate the spells.
Acorn of Far Travel is banned.
All effects that grant rounds of effective time, such as Time Stop, Temporal Acceleration, and Shadow Time, are banned.
Celerity's dazing effect cannot be obviated even by immunity.
White Raven Tactics may be used precisely once per battle per player.
Metamagic and Metapsionics
Spoiler
Persistent Spell's range requirements can not be obfuscated by any means, including but not limited to Ocular Spell, Reach spell, or any variant thereof. In the case of exhibition matches, Earthbound spell may be allowed.
Extend Spell and Persistent Spell do not stack to result in a 48-hour duration.
Touch range is not a fixed range.
Metamagic costs have a strict minimum value of one, unless the ability specifically reduces them to zero, such as DMM or an alternate cost payment method. Metamagic effects that have a +0 adjustment are unaffected by this.
Split psionic ray must have a target for each new ray it ends up producing.
Alert me if you plan to use Linked Power, and explain why.
Magic Items and Crafting
Spoiler
Magic items are capped at caster level 20th.
Spell Completion and Spell Trigger items can not have metamagic effects unless you are buying a specific printed example.
Dust of sneezing and choking is banned.
Dust of Disappearance is banned due to poor wording.
Items may not be bought at a price reduction. This does not apply to crafting but does prohibit writing a friendly crafter into your backstory, the purchase of partially charged items, the use of curses or item flaws, and similar.
Vorpal is banned.
Aptitude weapons are banned.
Creation costs are:
(Gold, Exp)= (J*(1/2)*Base_price, K*(1/25)*Base_price)
Where K and J are cost reductions from feats or class features and may go no lower than .65
Custom item creation is not permitted except as per the bonus stacking\slot stacking rules in the MiC. This includes traps.
Custom runestaves, weapons, armor, shields, scrolls, scepters, and full-charged wands are in exception to this rule. Staffs are not.
Psionic items may be customized on an approval-only basis, as some of the rules effectively demand it.
Attempts to get a custom item other than the above exceptions will likely be disapproved, but if you aren't sure, please, ask anyway.
Amulet of second chances is banned.
Thoughtbottle is banned.
Candle of Invocation is not banned, but will get you eaten by the Hounds.
Nightsticks do not stack.
Feathered Wings from Fiend Folio have no associated ill effects, having proved too valuable to the meta-game.
Scrolls of higher than 9th level do not exist.
Amulet of Peace is banned.
Power Link Quori Shards are banned.
Turn attempts or similar from multiples of the same item are considered unnamed bonuses from the same source, and thus do not stack.
Skills :
Spoiler
Caster Level from UMD checks caps at 20 for our purposes.
Diplomancy and its ilk are GM-adjudicated rather than running off the provided tables.
Seduction is banned for reasons of verisimilitude.
Intimidate and its results are not mind-affecting.
Good luck!
Submitted Sheets are reviewed by:
Sofawall
T.G. Oskar
Aethernox
IthilanorStPete
PhoenixRivers
Aharon
Aracor
Claudius Maximus
Vader fell to the ineffably accurate Sheriff of Moddingham.
Phoenix Rivers made Olo go Ni-Infinite on his own face.
Talic surrendered in the face Sallera's persistence, and fled as the fog claimed Sallera.
Aethernox was struck down by Saph's mastery of the Sublime Way
Yahzi defeated Olo, though many of his skeletons were crushed.
In a rematch, a burst of fire from the downed Olo brought Yahzi to a burning fate.
Imperial Specter conceded after Imhotep collapsed the arena by disintegrating load-bearing columns.
Level 1 sharnian and Olo fought it out, but magic was no match for arrows.
After a slight mishap, Olo faced Memalato and Water Penguin 43 and brought them under his control.
9mm cut down Lv1 Sharnian with swings that he couldn't see.
Olo got block-rocked by Talic's hulking hurler.
Kabol, by Lvl 1 Sharnian was the first character to force a run-time ban.
Alita, by Jemini Zero, keeps getting broken and rebuilt. JZ is commended for forcing three separate run-time bans.
9MM forced a pre-match nerf of splitting.
Shoutz to all the people who helped prove that Spelldancer needed a ban!
Kill of Cthulhu
The first person to pull a truly hilarious kill using the currently legal Call of Cthulhu d20 core book will receive $20 gift certificate to Cthulhu's Favored Candy Store.
Here is a list of popular arena maps. You are not restricted to these in any fashion, and may propose your own for your matches, subject to your opponent's approval.
Columns:
Spoiler
A
B
C
D
E
F
G
H
I
J
K
L
1
2
3
C
C
C
C
4
C
C
C
C
5
6
7
8
9
C
C
C
C
10
C
C
C
C
11
12
Brought to the ToS by Saph, this map originated in the Test of Might. The height of the arena and presence of doors and other features is variable, and should be agreed upon. The original specifications were:
Columns II:
Spoiler
A
B
C
D
E
F
G
H
I
J
K
L
1
2
3
C
C
C
C
4
C
C
C
C
5
6
7
8
9
C
C
C
C
10
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
11
C
12
C
13
14
C
15
C
16
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
17
C
C
C
C
18
19
20
21
22
C
C
C
C
23
C
C
C
C
24
25
Created by Doc Roc when concerns were raised over the small size of the first Columns map, this one provides more space and cover opportunities. Once again, an agreement should be struck on the details of this map.
Columns II - Jumbo Edition:
Spoiler
A
B
C
D
E
F
G
H
I
J
K
L
M
N
O
P
Q
R
S
T
U
V
W
X
1
2
3
4
5
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
6
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
7
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
8
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
18
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
19
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
20
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
21
C
C
22
C
C
23
C
C
24
C
C
25
26
27
C
C
28
C
C
29
C
C
30
C
C
31
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
32
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
33
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
34
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
44
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
45
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
46
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
C
47
48
49
50
I created this one when I needed a map in which I could maneuver a Gargantuan creature. It's the same as Columns II, but doubled in all dimensions.
River Map:
Spoiler
This map originated in the Arena Tournament. This has proven to be one of the most popular arena choices in the Test of Spite.
Blank Map:
Spoiler
Nothing really of note here. I once again think it was Talic who first posted it.
I just looked through the Call of Cthulu d20 and see that it's pretty similar to Dnd Core, including most of the same feats, but I see no classes or anything.
Can someone point me towards something CoC-y in there that besides maybe summoning a Cthulu monster to kill people?
edit: Is the FutureTek thing one person controlling 3 fighters vs 1 wizard? Or is it 3 people controlling 1 fighter each?
__________________
The accuracy of this post is questionable
Is the 1 wizard vs 4 fighter, have to be the fighter class, or just a melee build, or any melee build that doesn't get 9th level spells?
Given that we're giving you antimatter rifles, I'm going to say that it needs to be a fighter, and that melee is not okay. Remember, these are 'chantable AM rifles, so you can slap quickloading or similar on there.
It is core only. Leadership is banned, as are calling effects, and simulacrum. Otherwise, it's Core.
I was debating setting the terms to allow 1 PrC per contestant, of up to 10 levels. I discarded that idea, as that makes the wizard too nasty to be defeated by conventional core tactics. Archmage is too powerful.
EDIT: If the fighters would prefer no AM rifles, I'd be willing to expand it to Melee classes vs wizard classes.
Melee classes being any core class that has a maximum spell level of 4 or less and BAB at least 3/4 (basically, excludes Bard and fullcasters), as well as core PrC's with the same restriction...
Wizard classes include the wizard class and PrC's.
I don't recommend this option. It's not fair to the fighters.
Last edited by PhoenixRivers : 05-01-2010 at 09:01 AM.
Y'know, it's weird that I've been sorta with the ToS crowd, yet never actually had a match, unless we count the currently illegal Gunmage that got transferred over to DocRoc's unfortunately defunct IK game.
To rectify this, I'd actually like to try my hand at an Antimatter Fighter, as this sounds like it's made of WIN waiting to happen.
__________________
Rule of Cool Contributor and Goon
Y'know, it's weird that I've been sorta with the ToS crowd, yet never actually had a match, unless we count the currently illegal Gunmage that got transferred over to DocRoc's unfortunately defunct IK game.
To rectify this, I'd actually like to try my hand at an Antimatter Fighter, as this sounds like it's made of WIN waiting to happen.
The cool thing about antimatter fighters is that you get four!
just wanted to post a short reminder about my racial hit dice question. There's a submitted build that intends to use RHD, and I don't want to start checking it before I know wether it's illegal anyway. It's not overly powerful (I think), but I would understand if there was a general ruling, as PhoenixRivers said in the old thread.
Also, still curious if anybody could tell me how the total cover gained from tower shields works. Can you really protect yourself against a disjunction with one with guaranteed success?
__________________
By clicking this link, you open a pop-up, but I get a eurocent for my current wish, the 5th book of the Wheel of Time series. Please note that this only works if you leave the pop-up open until it has finished loading. Thank you!
Wait, 4 Antimatter Fighters or 4 antimatter rifles per fighter? I'm confuseled, slightly...
4 fighters vs 1 wizard.
Each fighter gets up to 2 futuretech weapons (so you could have an antimatter rifle, or 2 laser pistols, or something like that). The base Antimatter weapons are free, and you can enchant them for the enchantment cost.
just wanted to post a short reminder about my racial hit dice question. There's a submitted build that intends to use RHD, and I don't want to start checking it before I know wether it's illegal anyway. It's not overly powerful (I think), but I would understand if there was a general ruling, as PhoenixRivers said in the old thread.
Also, still curious if anybody could tell me how the total cover gained from tower shields works. Can you really protect yourself against a disjunction with one with guaranteed success?
Yes, though the shield would be affected by the disjunction. A good wizard can prepare for that, though. Note: It requires a standard action to take cover. Also note: Tower shields can't be crafted out of mithril or adamantine.
Each fighter gets up to 2 futuretech weapons (so you could have an antimatter rifle, or 2 laser pistols, or something like that). The base Antimatter weapons are free, and you can enchant them for the enchantment cost.
Okay, that's what I thought, though I suppose the original challenge that Doc links mutated from 3 to 4 fighters, then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixRivers
Also note: Tower shields can't be crafted out of mithril or adamantine.
Why not? Check out Races of Stone, they have a Steel Tower Shield, so I don't see why you couldn't have a Mithral or Adamantine one.
__________________
Rule of Cool Contributor and Goon
Each fighter gets up to 2 futuretech weapons (so you could have an antimatter rifle, or 2 laser pistols, or something like that). The base Antimatter weapons are free, and you can enchant them for the enchantment cost.
I'm confused, is one player supposed to make four fighters, or is it four players each with one fighter?
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Test of Spite [3.5]
