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Old 05-11-2010, 02:22 PM   Top  -  End  -  #1
Agent_0042
Orc in the Playground
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Default Shugenja Redux (3.5, Base Class, PEACH)

Introduction
Spoiler


Quick and dirty elemental diagram.
Spoiler


A brief cosmology for the setting, so you can see where I'm coming from. Feel free to skip over this.
Spoiler


THE SHUGENJA
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d6
Skills: The shugenja's class skills are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge(History, Nobility, Religion, Planes, taken separately) (Int), Profession (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int)
Skill Points: 4 + Int modifier (x4 at first level)

LevelBase Attack Bonus Fort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSpecial
1st
+0
+0
+0
+2
Element Focus +1, Elemental Resistance (Energy Resist 10/5), Shugenja Order
2nd
+1
+0
+0
+3
Channeling, Sense Elements, Order Ability (Lesser)
3rd
+1
+1
+1
+3
 
4th
+2
+1
+1
+4
Element Focus +2, Elemental Resistance (+4 to saves)
5th
+2
+1
+1
+4
 
6th
+3
+2
+2
+5
Resistance Aura
7th
+3
+2
+2
+5
 
8th
+4
+2
+2
+6
Order Ability (Intermediate)
9th
+4
+3
+3
+6
 
10th
+5
+3
+3
+7
Element Focus +3, Elemental Resistance (Energy Resist 20/10)
11th
+5
+3
+3
+7
 
12th
+6/+1
+4
+4
+8
Rapid Retrieval (Full-Round)
13th
+6/+1
+4
+4
+8
 
14th
+7/+2
+4
+4
+9
Order Ability (Greater)
15th
+7/+2
+5
+5
+9
 
16th
+8/+3
+5
+5
+10
Element Focus +4, Elemental Resistance (Energy Immunity, +8 to saves)
17th
+8/+3
+5
+5
+10
 
18th
+9/+4
+6
+6
+11
Rapid Retrieval (Swift)
19th
+9/+4
+6
+6
+11
Divine Aspiration
20th
+10/+5
+6
+6
+12
Element Focus +5, Elemental Resistance (Auto-succeed on saves)

SPELL PROGRESSION
LevelSpells Cast per Day Spells Retrieved per Day
 0th1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8th9th 0th1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8th9th
1st53-------- 21--------
2nd64-------- 32--------
3rd653------- 321-------
4th664------- 332-------
5th6653------ 4321------
6th6664------ 4332------
7th66653----- 44321-----
8th66664----- 44332-----
9th666653---- 444321----
10th666664---- 444332----
11th6666653--- 4444321---
12th6666664--- 4444332---
13th66666653-- 44444321--
14th66666664-- 44444332--
15th666666653- 444444321-
16th666666664- 444444332-
17th6666666653 4444444321
18th6666666664 4444444332
19th6666666665 4444444432
20th6666666666 4444444433

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Shugenja are proficient with all simple weapons and with light armor. Armor does not interfere with a shugenja's casting.
Spells
A shugenja casts divine spells using the energies from the elemental planes. This is done through what is called an elemental tear: a magatama, often worn as a necklace, aligned to the plane of the shugenja's elemental focus. Whenever a shugenja wishes to cast a spell, she must have the tear on her person as a divine focus component.

To cast a spell, a shugenja must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a shugenja’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the shugenja’s Wisdom modifier. Like other spellcasters, a shugenja can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on the first table above. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score.

A shugenja begins play knowing ALL 0-level spells and 1st-level spells for the element chosen as her Element Focus, as well as her 1st-level order spell. Whenever she gains the ability to cast a new level of spells, she automatically learns all spells of that level from her chosen element and her order spell. In addition, each time the shugenja gains a level, she may learn two spells of any level she is able to cast, from the universal list or any element not opposed to her chosen element.

Knowing a spell is not enough; before a shugenja may cast a spell, she must first retrieve it. After the shugenja has rested and meditated to recover her daily allotment of spells, she selects the appropriate number of spells of each level, according to the second table above, from her list of spells known to be retrieved. She may then cast any spell she has retrieved at any time, much as a sorcerer may cast any spell he knows, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level. As a wizard can leave spell slots empty, to be filled later, so can a shugenja hold off on retrieving a spell to fill a slot. A shugenja may not retrieve a lower level spell in place of a higher level one, but she may use a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell she has retrieved.

*Note: This is effectively the spirit shaman's casting mechanic, substituting “spells known” for “the entire druid spell list”. You can also think of it as similar to the Tome of Battle system, where a martial adept knows several maneuvers but only has a subset of them readied for use at a given time. If that helps.*

As a spontaneous caster, a shugenja must take longer than usual to cast a metamagic spell. Swift action casting times become standard actions, standard action casting times become full round actions, and any spell that takes a full round action or more to cast requires an additional full round action. Shugenja cannot use the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, unless they have taken the Rapid Metamagic feat.
Element Focus
All shugenja have a favored element, selected near the end of their training, which determines the majority of their spell list. A shugenja gains a +1 to her caster level and spell DC when casting a spell from her chosen element. This bonus increases to +2 at fourth level, +3 at tenth level, +4 at sixteenth level, and +5 at 20th level. The cost of this, though, is that a shugenja may not learn any spells from the three elements opposed to her elements, as described below.

The elements are as follows:

Water
Spoiler
Water is the element of stoicism and rationality. Water spells include those which manipulate water and ice, as well as divination magic. Water's adjacent elements are Rain and Silt, and its opposed elements are Sun, Fire, and Ash. The associated damage type for Water is cold, and the associated descriptors are Cold and Water.
Rain
Spoiler
Rain is the element of growth and renewal. Rain spells include those which manipulate weather and lightning, as well as restorative magic. Rain's adjacent elements are Air and Water, and its opposed elements are Fire, Ash, and Earth. The associated damage type for Rain is electricity, and the associated descriptors are Air and Electricity.
Air
Spoiler
Air is the element of change and liberation. Air spells include those which manipulate wind, sound, and movement, as well as teleportation magic. Air's adjacent elements are Sun and Rain, and its opposed elements are Ash, Earth, and Silt. The associated damage type for Air is sonic, and the associated descriptors are Air and Sonic.
Sun
Spoiler
Sun is the element of truth and purity. Sun spells include those which manipulate light or heat, as well as abjuration and detection magic. Sun's adjacent elements are Fire and Air, and its opposed elements are Earth, Silt, and Water. The associated damage type for Sun is desiccation, and the associated descriptors are Light and Mind-Affecting.
Fire
Spoiler
Fire is the element of passion and spirit. Fire spells include those which manipulate fire and emotion. Fire's adjacent elements are Ash and Sun, and its opposed elements are Silt, Water, and Rain. The associated damage type for Fire is fire, and the associated descriptors are Fire and Mind-Affecting.
Ash
Spoiler
Ash is the element of decay and progression. Ash spells include those which manipulate death, poison, and time (to some extent), as well as dispelling magic. Ash's adjacent elements are Earth and Fire, and its opposed elements are Water, Rain, and Air. The associated damage type for Ash is negative energy, and it's associated descriptors are Death and Fear.

*Note: Undead in the setting are harmed by negative energy and healed by positive energy, as with any other creature. Feel free to not worry about that.*
Earth
Spoiler
Earth is the element of stability and harmony. Earth spells include those which manipulate stone, metal, and force. Earth's adjacent elements are Silt and Ash, and its opposed elements are Rain, Air, and Sun. The associated damage type for Earth is force, and the associated descriptors are Earth and Force.
Silt
Spoiler
Silt is the element of deception and secrecy. Silt spells include those which manipulate acid and darkness, as well as illusion and obscuring magic. Silt's adjacent elements are Earth and Water, and its opposed elements are Air, Sun, and Fire. The associated damage type for Silt is acid, and the associated descriptors are Acid and Darkness.
Additionally, there is a ninth element, Void. Void is the element of existence, of being and nonbeing. Shugenja are not able to specialize in Void.
Elemental Resistance (Ex)
A shugenja gains energy resistance 10 to the associated energy type for her chosen element. In addition, she gains energy resistance 5 to the associated energy type for the elements adjacent to her chosen elements.

At 4th level, a shugenja gains a +4 bonus to all saving throws against spells, as well as spell-like or supernatural abilities, with the associated descriptors for her chosen element.

At 10th level, the shugenja's energy resistances increase from 10 to 20 for her chosen element, and from 5 to 10 for her adjacent elements.

A 16th level shugenja becomes immune to the energy associated with her chosen element, and the saving throw bonus granted by this ability increases to +8.

Upon reaching 20th level, the shugenja automatically succeeds on any saves against abilities with the associated descriptors for her chosen element.
Shugenja Order
A shugenja completes her training by joining one of the Shugenja Orders. Each order has an associated element or elements, and all shugenja of that order must have one of those as a chosen element. The one exception is the Order of the Ineffable Mystery; its associated element is void, but shugenja of any element may join, though membership is exclusive to members of the Royal Family. In exchange for serving the order, a shugenja gains knowledge of one order spell at each spell level and, once she gains the appropriate levels, is taught additional abilities. The orders are detailed further below.
Channeling (Su)
A 2nd level learns to use her divine connection to the elemental planes for more than just casting spells. She gains a number of Channeling attempts each day equal to three plus her Charisma modifier, recovered whenever she rests to regain her spells. She can then use these attempts in the following ways, each use requiring only one Channeling attempt unless otherwise specified:

Turning Undead
Regardless of her alignment, a shugenja can turn or destroy undead as a good cleric of her class level. Shugenja of all elements and orders hate undead, as undead represent a perversion of the natural order.
Turning/Rebuking Elementals
A shugenja can rebuke or command any creature with the same elemental subtype as her chosen element as an evil cleric would rebuke or command undead. She can also attempt to rebuke a creature with the elemental subtype adjacent to her chosen element, though she receives a -4 to her check. Similarly, She can attempt to turn creatures with the elemental subtype directly opposed to her chosen element (Water<->Fire, Rain<->Ash, Air<->Earth, Sun<->Silt) at no penalty, or creatures with the other subtypes opposed to her chosen element at a -4 to her check. A shugenja must decide which elemental subtype she wishes to turn or rebuke when she uses this ability, and may only select one per use.

*Note: Each element has its own, appropriately named subtype, described in a later section. If you don't feel like having to assign paraelemental subtypes to creatures, just use the standard four. If they chose an element, they rebuke that subtype and turn the opposed subtype. If they picked a paraelement, they rebuke either of their adjacent subtypes and turn the other two subtypes, but all of that is at a -4 to their turning check.*
Power Class Features
A shugenja may alternatively use Channeling attempts to activate Sense Elements, her order abilities, or later class features, as stated in the descriptions for those abilities.
Channeling benefits from any feats, spells, or class features that would improve Turn Undead, and counts as such for the purposes of qualifying for prestige classes and of taking/activating divine feats. If a shugenja takes levels in classes or prestige classes that advance Turn Undead, she may choose to have it advance her Channeling instead; those levels then stack with shugenja levels for turning and rebuking checks, or for whenever an ability that uses a Channeling attempt refers to her class level (but not for obtaining new abilities). However, if she takes a class that grants Turn Undead, the two do not stack, and she cannot use Turn Undead attempts in place of Channeling attempts to power her shugenja class features.
Order Ability (Su)
Each order has its own place and function in the Empire, and their members are trained in certain techniques so that they may serve appropriately. All order abilities are supernatural abilities. Consult the order write-ups for the ability details.

Upon reaching 2nd level, a shugenja learns the lesser ability appropriate to her order. Although no two abilities are the same from order to order, they all require spending a Channeling attempt and usually last for no more than a single action or round.

Upon reaching 8th level, a shugenja learns the intermediate ability appropriate to her order. These abilities typically take the form of an aura, field, or similar effect that moves with the caster. They require spending a single Channeling attempt and a standard action to activate.

Upon reaching 14th level, a shugenja learns the greater ability appropriate to her order. These abilities affect a zone or otherwise stationary area. They require a single Channeling attempt and a full-round action to activate. However, additional Channeling attempts may be spent to increase the size of the effect, as specified in the ability descriptions.
Sense Elements (Su)
Upon reaching 2nd level, as a full-round action, a shugenja may spend a Channeling attempt to become aware of all sources of any single element within ten feet. She may choose to detect any element other than Void, not just her chosen element. The shugenja learns the size and distance of the sources but not their precise location or actual nature.
For purposes of this ability, the following count as sources of an element:
  • Actual, physical quantities of a particular element, such as a bonfire or a lake, or related phenomena, such as lightning for Rain.
  • Spells, effects, or magic items which have an associated descriptor for a particular element or involve an associated energy type.
  • Creatures which used one of the above in the past [Spell Level] hours.
  • Living creatures from the Material or Shadow realms, which consist of all elements.
  • Creatures with an elemental subtype.
  • Any other phenomena or effects that the GM decides appropriate.
By concentrating longer, a shugenja can either extend her senses or gather more information about the elements she has detected. Each round spent in concentration adds five feet to the radius of the sense ability, to a maximum of five additional feet per class level. Alternatively, the shugenja can focus on one source of the sensed element per round, attempting a Spellcraft check to determine more about the item. The amount of information learned depends on the Spellcraft check result:

Check ResultInformation Learned
20 or moreItem's general location.
25 or moreWhether item is natural or a spell effect.
30 or moreWhether item is a creature or an object.
35 or moreExact nature of item.

In subsequent rounds, the shugenja can retry her check on the same item, shift her attention to a different item, or extend the range of her senses. The effect lasts until the shugenja stops concentrating, and no additional Channeling attempts need be expended past the first.
Resistance Aura (Su)
At 6th level, a shugenja may spend a Channeling attempt to create an aura that grants all bonuses given by her Elemental Resistance class feature to all allies within 5ft per class level. This only applies to allies who remain within the area of effect; if an ally leaves the aura, he or she loses these benefits until he or she re-enters. This ability is a swift action to initiate, and it lasts for one round per class level.
Rapid Retrieval (Su)
A 12th level shugenja may spend a Channeling attempt as a full-round action to fill a spell slot that she previously left blank when she retrieved her spells for the day.

At 18th level, this ability is usable as a swift action.
Divine Aspiration (Su)
At 19th level, a shugenja may spend a Channeling attempt to temporarily acquire the elemental creature template appropriate for her chosen element. This ability requires a swift action to initiate, and lasts for one round per class level. At any point while the ability is still active, the shugenja may spend another Channeling attempt as a free action to extend the duration by the same amount.

Last edited by Agent_0042 : 10-22-2011 at 11:59 PM.
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Old 05-11-2010, 02:23 PM   Top  -  End  -  #2
Agent_0042
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Default Re: Shugenja Redux (3.5, Base Class, PEACH)

SPELL LIST
In order to get a workable number of spells for each element, it's assumed that you'll have access to additional books. The base spell list consists of spells from core, the Players Handbook 2, the Spell Compendium, and the Dark Sun guide (available here). Spells that are marked with an asterisk (*) are modified, the changes described in the fourth spoiler.

Core + Dark Sun + Player's Handbook 2 + Spell Compendium
Water, Rain, Air, & Sun Spells
Spoiler

Fire, Ash, Earth, & Silt Spells
Spoiler

Universal Spells
Spoiler

Modified Spells
Spoiler


ADDITONAL SPELLS
I tried to limit the spell list to as few sources as possible to make the class more usable, and found that the four above were the minimum to get a really fleshed-out list. I also tried to ensure that an out-the-box shugenja of each element would have a list that's fun to cast from while being roughly balanced with one another. As a result, there's a bunch of leftover spells that didn't make the cut, either due to power or space limitations, and there's a wealth of other sources with fitting spells. I'll sort through some of them here.

If you want to make use of these additional spells, first check with your DM. If the spell is listed under your element, then whenever you gain access to that level of spells, have it replace one of the spells on your standard list. If you don't want to do that, you already have access to that level of spells, or it's for a different element, pick it as one of your two level-up spells.

Leftovers from Core + Dark Sun + Player's Handbook 2 + Spell Compendium
Spoiler


Frostburn + Sandstorm + Stormwrack
Spoiler


The Completes: Adventurer + Arcane + Champion + Divine + Mage + Scoundrel + Warrior
Spoiler


Book of Exalted Deeds + Book of Vile Darkness
Spoiler

Last edited by Agent_0042 : 05-10-2011 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 05-11-2010, 02:24 PM   Top  -  End  -  #3
Agent_0042
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Default Re: Shugenja Redux (3.5, Base Class, PEACH)

SHUGENJA ORDERS
As with the spell list, core spells are printed in black, Dark Sun spells are printed in red, PHB2 spells are printed in green, and Spell Compendium spells are printed in blue.

Order of the Watery Veil - Water
Spoiler

Order of the Living Current - Water/Rain
Spoiler

Order of the Merciful Rain - Rain
Spoiler

Order of the Liberating Storm - Rain/Air
Spoiler

Order of the Aerial Passage - Air
Spoiler

Order of the Revealing Light - Air/Sun
Spoiler

Order of the Scintillating Sun - Sun
Spoiler

Order of the Blazing Countenance - Sun/Fire
Spoiler

Order of the Fiery Wrath - Fire
Spoiler

Order of the Broken Sands - Fire/Ash
Spoiler

Order of the Fading Ash - Ash
Spoiler

Order of the Stalwart Tomb - Ash/Earth
Spoiler

Order of the Earthen Embrace - Earth
Spoiler

Order of the Reflective Edge - Earth/Silt
Spoiler

Order of the Pervasive Silt - Silt
Spoiler

Order of the Clouded River - Silt/Water
Spoiler

Order of the Ineffable Mystery - Void
Spoiler

Last edited by Agent_0042 : 05-09-2012 at 06:09 PM.
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Old 05-11-2010, 02:24 PM   Top  -  End  -  #4
WoodenSword
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Default Re: Shugenja Revamp (3.5, Base Class, PEACH)

definately cool. though Divine Aspiration should be the Capstone, and make you an elemental
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Old 05-11-2010, 02:27 PM   Top  -  End  -  #5
Agent_0042
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Default Re: Shugenja Revamp (3.5, Base Class, PEACH)

RELATED MATERIAL
Other stuff that is either referenced by the class or will prove useful.

ACF: Dual Focus
Spoiler


Feat: Extra Recall
Spoiler


New Weapon Properties
Spoiler


Elemental Subtypes
Spoiler


Elemental Creature Templates
Spoiler

Last edited by Agent_0042 : 05-10-2011 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:44 PM   Top  -  End  -  #6
Wahrheit
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Default Re: Shugenja Revamp (3.5, Base Class, PEACH)

I'm definitely liking how it's been turning out. You may want to make a post each time you update the class, though, so it gets more attention.
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:04 PM   Top  -  End  -  #7
jiriku
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Default Re: Shugenja Revamp (3.5, Base Class, PEACH)

This reeks of awesome. I'll be robbing you extensively for my elemental casters...starting with that excellent picture of the ash shugenja for my void disciple.

some PEACH:

Counter-Force: needs a range.

A well-made diagram with a wheel of elements and orders would be convenient for quickly assessing which things are related/opposed to what.
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Tier 1 casters breaking your game? Remix your magic with Philosopher's Stone, or try these flavorful mid-tier classes instead: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!


Last edited by jiriku : 07-15-2010 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:14 PM   Top  -  End  -  #8
Morph Bark
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Default Re: Shugenja Revamp (3.5, Base Class, PEACH)

I like it. I like the new elements and moving away from the normal DnD para-elements. One of the big things I didn't like about the Shugenja was the "o+x+y" spells thing, though. I don't suppose that can be changed to something else, something simpler? Or, otherwise, has that been done before?
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:18 PM   Top  -  End  -  #9
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Default Re: Shugenja Revamp (3.5, Base Class, PEACH)

My question... So we got spells known and per day.. Got the order spells(sorta).. Where is the spell list?
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:25 PM   Top  -  End  -  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcarter11 View Post
My question... So we got spells known and per day.. Got the order spells(sorta).. Where is the spell list?
Complete Divine 144.

Allegedly.
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:30 PM   Top  -  End  -  #11
Agent_0042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahrheit View Post
I'm definitely liking how it's been turning out. You may want to make a post each time you update the class, though, so it gets more attention.
Well, I was going to wait until I'd gotten everything up, first.

Oh, well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
This reeks of awesome. I'll be robbing you extensively for my elemental casters...starting with that excellent picture of the ash shugenja for my void disciple.
Well, shucks, I was going to rob you for abilities!

Quote:
some PEACH:

Counter-Force: needs a range.
Gotcha!
{EDIT} On second thought, I think it works being able to target any ally within line of sight. Too much?

Quote:
A well-made diagram with a wheel of elements and orders would be convenient for quickly assessed which things are related/opposed to what.
Noted. When I have time to spare, I'll make one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Bark View Post
I like it. I like the new elements and moving away from the normal DnD para-elements. One of the big things I didn't like about the Shugenja was the "o+x+y" spells thing, though. I don't suppose that can be changed to something else, something simpler? Or, otherwise, has that been done before?
Possibly. Any suggestions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcarter11 View Post
My question... So we got spells known and per day.. Got the order spells(sorta).. Where is the spell list?
In the works. Hopefully, you won't be waiting too long.

Last edited by Agent_0042 : 07-15-2010 at 05:52 PM.
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:35 PM   Top  -  End  -  #12
mrcarter11
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Default Re: Shugenja Revamp (3.5, Base Class, PEACH)

Alright works for me.. Off topic.. you want someone to sort the SC and see if they can find spells for your orders by any chance?
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:37 PM   Top  -  End  -  #13
Agent_0042
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Default Re: Shugenja Revamp (3.5, Base Class, PEACH)

If anyone wishes to assist with the order abilities, I'll gladly take suggestions. A few guidelines:

1) I want to stay away from abilities that simply replicate a spell. That's what they have a spell list for.

2) Buffs and +x's work, but I'd rather abilities that offer new options rather than larger numbers.

3) I'd strongly prefer if the abilities scaled in some way with shugenja level, even if it's just a longer duration or higher save DC.

4) Lesser abilities use one Turning attempt and generally are not ongoing effects, though they can be. Greater abilities can be empowered in some manner by spending additional Turning attempts and usually have a duration.

{EDIT}
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcarter11 View Post
Alright works for me.. Off topic.. you want someone to sort the SC and see if they can find spells for your orders by any chance?
Already have it sorted actually, just trying to figure out which order and element gets what. A couple of the elements are hard-pressed for spells at certain levels.

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Old 07-20-2010, 02:26 PM   Top  -  End  -  #14
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Some updates:

1) Spells have been completed. Yay! There's probably going to be some revisions, but for the most part it's set.

2) Added the Dual Focus ACF.

3) Slightly reduced spells per day, and added some MAD in the form of needing Wis to cast spells, while DC's and bonus spells are still based off of Cha. This is to help offset potential imbalance from the next change.

4) Turned the shugenja into a pseudo-fixed-list caster. She now learns ALL spells from her chosen element when she gets access to a new level, plus a small amount of non-element spells as she gains further levels. When combined with 3), I don't feel that this is overpowering, for the following reasons:
  • Any given element's spell list is thematically narrow, with two or three shticks each. Sure, there's a lot of spells at a particular level, but most of them are overlapping or variations on a theme. A shugenja can't easily mix-match spells from different elements, so it's quite similar to having eight separate fixed-list casters with shared class features.
  • Each element does have several nice spells, from both the cleric and wizard lists, but to my knowledge I've weeded out all the blatantly game-breaking spells. No time stop and celerity, no domination, no planar binding or summoning creatures with gate, no polymorph, and so on. She gets a Turn Undead equivalent, but it doesn't work for Divine Metamagic, so no CoDzilla.
  • As a setting-specific class, the only other Vancian casters present are the favored soul (rare, probably won't come up, and needs to be reworked anyway) and the spirit shaman. The spirit shaman knows fewer spells at one time, but can swap out his entire list daily. Thus, I don't think the shugenja is overwhelmingly better than its fellow caster.
  • As a general use class, in terms of total number spells at any particular level the shugenja is well in line with the beguiler, dread necromancer, and warmage. I feel her spell list is equally limited, only along element lines instead of school lines. She learns a few non-element spells to cover her weaknesses, true, but the fixed-list casters have Advanced and Eclectic Learning for the same purpose.

I plan to keep the split-ability-score casting in any event, but I'm not entirely sure if the reduced spells per day are necessary. On the to-do list, in no particular order: finish up the order abilities, work on the new subtypes, templates, and creatures, and make up a few feats. Any feedback or suggestions, on the changes or upcoming stuff?

Last edited by Agent_0042 : 07-20-2010 at 02:32 PM.
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Old 07-20-2010, 05:42 PM   Top  -  End  -  #15
Mephibosheth
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Default Re: Shugenja Revamp (3.5, Base Class, PEACH)

I really like what you're doing here. Some of the new classes from the Complete series and OA are really flavorful and interesting but terribly-supported, even within the Completes. I agree with you that the shugenja class has great potential but horrible implementation, especially since, as you say, there's no reason not to PrC out. As you've written it, however, the class gives a lot of juicy abilities to entice you to stay in.

I also really like the strong elemental alignment you've built into the class. Far to often, in my option, D&D element-based classes have a few abilities that make the character marginally better with one element but not necessarily significantly focused.

Just to clarify, you say that a shugenja cannot learn a spell from his or her "prohibited" element. You go on, under the list of shugenja elements to list three elements that are "opposed." Is an "opposed" element a "prohibited" element or is only one of the "opposed" elements "prohibited." I'm imagining some sort of color wheel-like diagram wherein some elements are on the opposite side of the wheel but not directly opposite and therefor not necessarily "prohibited." Or are all three "opposed" elements also "prohibited." I think I could see strong cases for either way but thought the issue could use some clarity. Unless I've missed something...

I also think the aura mode of "Ignore Elements" could use some clarification. You say they can spend additional channel attempts to change the self-only version into an aura. Does it cost two channel attempts to turn it into a 20 foot radius aura (one for the initial self-only version and one for the first 20 feet of radius) with an additional 10 feet for every additional channel attempt spent? Can a shugenja activate the self-only version and, in a later round, spend an additional channel attempt to turn it into an aura?

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Excellent start! I'll be keeping an eye out for the finished product.

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Old 07-21-2010, 01:48 PM   Top  -  End  -  #16
Agent_0042
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Default Re: Shugenja Revamp (3.5, Base Class, PEACH)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mephibosheth View Post
Just to clarify, you say that a shugenja cannot learn a spell from his or her "prohibited" element. You go on, under the list of shugenja elements to list three elements that are "opposed." Is an "opposed" element a "prohibited" element or is only one of the "opposed" elements "prohibited." I'm imagining some sort of color wheel-like diagram wherein some elements are on the opposite side of the wheel but not directly opposite and therefor not necessarily "prohibited." Or are all three "opposed" elements also "prohibited." I think I could see strong cases for either way but thought the issue could use some clarity. Unless I've missed something...
Both terms refer to the same thing. Each shugenja has three opposed elements based on the one she chooses, and can't learn spells from any of those lists. I didn't think it was confusing, but I've reworded it for clarity.

As for the diagram, it was on my to-do list, but I'll bump it up to a priority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mephibosheth View Post
I also think the aura mode of "Ignore Elements" could use some clarification. You say they can spend additional channel attempts to change the self-only version into an aura. Does it cost two channel attempts to turn it into a 20 foot radius aura (one for the initial self-only version and one for the first 20 feet of radius) with an additional 10 feet for every additional channel attempt spent? Can a shugenja activate the self-only version and, in a later round, spend an additional channel attempt to turn it into an aura?
Now for that, I totally understand the confusion. The idea was one Channeling gets you a self-only effect, two gets a 30-ft aura, three a 40ft aura, and so on. I think I'll just make it into a flat-out aura, though, to keep it simple.

Much appreciate the kind words and support, by the way.
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Old 08-11-2010, 07:13 PM   Top  -  End  -  #17
Agent_0042
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Threw up a quick element diagram and cosmology summary for the setting this is designed for, reworked Ignore Element some, clarified what Sense Elements can find, and filled in a bit over half the order abilities. Any suggestions for the remaining abilities, as well as names for some of the ones I already have, would be appreciated. After those are out the way, I'll write up the new templates/subtypes and perhaps dig through some splatbooks for more spell options.

Last edited by Agent_0042 : 08-11-2010 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 08-11-2010, 07:27 PM   Top  -  End  -  #18
AtlanteanTroll
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Default Re: Shugenja Revamp (3.5, Base Class, PEACH)

If their is a sun elemental, shouldn't their be a corrosponding moon elemental? I think it's kind of silly sun is an element.
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Old 08-11-2010, 08:06 PM   Top  -  End  -  #19
Sir Shadow
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Default Re: Shugenja Revamp (3.5, Base Class, PEACH)

A moon is just a piece of earth. It makes no sense for it to have an element if you're going by these.
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Old 08-15-2010, 07:45 PM   Top  -  End  -  #20
Wahrheit
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Default Re: Shugenja Revamp (3.5, Base Class, PEACH)

Given the cosmology, Reality Maelstrom would need a new destination chart. Maybe something like this, with the Material plane taking the place of whatever plane you're on if you're jaunting about the place? Or a d10, simply removing the last two entries on the chart.

d12Destination
Plane
1Void
2Earth
3Water
4Air
5Fire
6Silt
7Rain
8Sun
9Ash
10Shadow
11Wound
12Reroll

Last edited by Wahrheit : 08-15-2010 at 07:46 PM.
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Old 08-15-2010, 11:12 PM   Top  -  End  -  #21
Agent_0042
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Quote:
If their is a sun elemental, shouldn't their be a corrosponding moon elemental? I think it's kind of silly sun is an element.
First: Where would you put Moon? Water and Earth? Water and Air?
Second : With the current elemental setup, each has their own themes and shticks. Sun, which can be interpreted as light in this context, has enough thematically to stand on its own. On the other hand, most of the themes commonly associated with the Moon are currently linked with Silt, Water, and Rain. If you were to replace any one of those with Moon, it would disrupt the rest.

Now, I'm not saying I couldn't fit Moon in there, but it would be a pain to figure out again what element gets what, and then rework abilities, spell lists, etc. It's not worth the trouble.

As it turns out, Moon is somewhat subsumed into Rain. Most of the "moon" spells involve electricity, which is Rain's thing. Rain is also the feral element, so lycanthropes fit thematically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahrheit View Post
Given the cosmology, Reality Maelstrom would need a new destination chart. Maybe something like this, with the Material plane taking the place of whatever plane you're on if you're jaunting about the place? Or a d10, simply removing the last two entries on the chart.

d12Destination <br> Plane
1Void
2Earth
3Water
4Air
5Fire
6Silt
7Rain
8Sun
9Ash
10Shadow
11Wound
12Reroll
Mmm, good catch. We'll just go with the d10, dropping the Wound. That's too mean.
This applies to any spell with a random planar destination, of course.

Last edited by Agent_0042 : 08-15-2010 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 08-19-2010, 07:59 PM   Top  -  End  -  #22
The Antigamer
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Default Re: Shugenja Revamp (3.5, Base Class, PEACH)

Suggesting spells from Sandstorm for Earth, Ash, and Fire, and spells from Frostburn for Water and Rain. Actually, there are some nifty water spells in Sandstorm too, especially if you count dessication spells as water. I'll give specific examples by soon.
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Old 08-19-2010, 10:49 PM   Top  -  End  -  #23
The Antigamer
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Frostburn spells:
Water-
1st level: Float
2nd level: Flash-freeze, Zone of glacial cold, Bone chill
3rd level: Lesser aura of cold, Control snow and ice, Meld into ice
4th level: Frostburn, Glacial globe of invulnerability
5th level: Dispel fire, Frostbite, Hibernal healing, Pass through ice, Flesh to ice, Ice to flesh
6th level: Mass frostburn, Mantle of the icy soul, Waves of cold, Suppress flames
7th level: Greater aura of cold
9th level: Iceberg, Frostfell


Rain-
2nd level: Obscuring snow, Thin air
3rd level: Arctic Haze, Control Temperature
4th level: Glacial wind
5th level: Boreal wind, Blizzard
6th level: Death hail
7th level: Whiteout, Greater glacial wind
8th level: Fimbulwinter

Fire:
2nd level: Thaw
5th level: Dispel cold, Anticold sphere

Sandstorm spells:
Water-
1st level: Locate water
2nd level: Hydrate
4th level: Wall of water
5th level: Antifire sphere
8th level: Flashflood

Silt-
4th level: Wall of salt
5th level: Flesh to salt, Salt to flesh
7th level: Mass flesh to salt

Earth-
2nd level: Halo of sand, Scimitar of sand
3rd level: Control sand, Soul of the waste
4th level: Blast of sand, Wall of sand
5th level: Transmute stone to sand/sand to stone/sand to glass

Ash-
2nd level: Ashstar
3rd level: Black Sand
5th level: Wall of magma
6th level: Scalding mud, Ashen union

Fire-
1st level: Parching touch
3rd level: Body blaze
4th level: Dispel Water, parboil
9th: Mantle of the fiery spirit

Sun-
1st level: Parching touch
2nd level: Sunstroke, Dessicate
4th level: Searing exposure, Mass dessicate
5th level: Unearthly heat

Figured dessicate spells would be better as Fire, although there is an argument they could be Ash, since they are the necromancy subschool. Obviously not all of these can be on the spell lists, and some may match the elemental theme of the focus, but not the magical abilities theme, but I included all I thought were good thematic additions.

Edit: Moved dessicate spells to sun
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Old 08-21-2010, 10:58 AM   Top  -  End  -  #24
Sir Shadow
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Default Re: Shugenja Revamp (3.5, Base Class, PEACH)

Dessicate would probably be Silt if you put the salt spells in there.
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Old 08-21-2010, 11:15 AM   Top  -  End  -  #25
The Antigamer
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You think so? I put flesh to salt in silt because I was thinking ocean sand can contain a lot of dry salt. But it's still part water, and dessicate is dehydration...I dunno, I think dessication fits better in fire or ash.
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Old 08-21-2010, 12:00 PM   Top  -  End  -  #26
Sir Shadow
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Default Re: Shugenja Revamp (3.5, Base Class, PEACH)

Well, dessication was basically you sucking the water out of something, kind of like how salt dehydrates you. I don't think it would go in fire... it would fit more in Ash if you don't think Silt should have it.
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Old 08-21-2010, 12:31 PM   Top  -  End  -  #27
Wahrheit
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Desiccation is the associated damage type for Sun.

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Old 08-22-2010, 01:21 AM   Top  -  End  -  #28
The Antigamer
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*smacks forehead* don't knowhow I missed that, I'll edit that list when I get back to my computer tomorrow. Seems a bit too large of a task to undertake with just my phone.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:49 PM   Top  -  End  -  #29
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Great work! This class looks much more interesting now.

I might be missing something vital though, since after comparing this version of the class to the one described in Complete Divine, I feel that the added class features are powerful and comes with no similarly added disadvantages(?)

Has this class been ‘buffed-up” in comparison (or how can balance possibly be kept)?
Is the original shugenja class underpowered and by this revamping made more balanced compared to other classes?

Thanks for any help to understand.
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Old 12-15-2012, 04:43 PM   Top  -  End  -  #30
Agent_0042
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Yes, this is intended as a straight power-up. The CD shugenja has no class features to speak of, a delayed casting progression (like the sorcerer, but with fewer spell slots) and a spell list that is not-very-good.

Now, I have a much higher point for balance compared to most of the playground, and I admit as such in the OP. This is supposed to be a wizard/cleric/sorcerer replacement, with a little setting-specific flavor, and was designed to go toe-to-toe with those classes. That said, I do feel as if I overshot the mark, and would tone it down if I planned to use it in someone else's campaign.
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