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I am having great difficulty believing that. Thus far, I have one flavorful trick of questionable legality and functionality that makes a one trick pony, and a build that, while it uses MoM, is certainly easier to make without it.
I'm having similar problems, compounded by the fact that the really flavourful LA - race I want to use doesn't have any mechanical synergy with the class.
Not that MoM has synergy with anything much, other than the Assassin's mask.
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Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi
You know, I think gods are the exception to the rule that "I built you a shrine" is creepy.
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Originally Posted by hotel_papa
I maintain that until I see a movie trailer where Patrick Stewart introduces himself as Mordenkainen, there never was and never will be a D&D movie.
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Originally Posted by dixieboy
I am unable to respond due to the awesomness of seducing a god, sorry
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Originally Posted by Kalirren
The only person in the past two pages who has known what (s)he has been talking about is Heliomance.
I'm trying to get it to work, but most of the time I feel I could just replace the damn class with something else, and get the same result. Sure, it's not as bad as commoner, but it's not a LOT more.
I'll go ahead and try this. MoM will be interesting, I have a question though- how would you judges feel about allowing MoM +1 spellcasting levels to apply to things other than casting, like initiating, psionics, the Tome of Magic classes, etc.? Crappy progression in those is much more interesting than crappy progression in casting IMO and if I wanted to use the class I'd certainly try to convince the DM this should be allowed.
I'm having similar problems, compounded by the fact that the really flavourful LA - race I want to use doesn't have any mechanical synergy with the class.
Not that MoM has synergy with anything much, other than the Assassin's mask.
Faceless and Gladiator are pretty good. Nondetection and EWP(Yes) are nice abilities to have.
I'll go ahead and try this. MoM will be interesting, I have a question though- how would you judges feel about allowing MoM +1 spellcasting levels to apply to things other than casting, like initiating, psionics, the Tome of Magic classes, etc.? Crappy progression in those is much more interesting than crappy progression in casting IMO and if I wanted to use the class I'd certainly try to convince the DM this should be allowed.
Non-permissible, as it's illegal by RAW. This is not a chance to bend the rules, but work within them.
I'll go ahead and try this. MoM will be interesting, I have a question though- how would you judges feel about allowing MoM +1 spellcasting levels to apply to things other than casting, like initiating, psionics, the Tome of Magic classes, etc.? Crappy progression in those is much more interesting than crappy progression in casting IMO and if I wanted to use the class I'd certainly try to convince the DM this should be allowed.
I agree with you in spirit, but unless the class specifically allows you to do so (Shadowcaster), please avoid non-casting entries that require a house-rule to work.
I personally must disagree with the notion that a class has to be weak to be a flavorful Secret Ingredient, as it smells faintly of Stormwind. Sometimes you have to work with cow tongue, but sometimes you get beef.
You misunderstand me if your sensing stormwind. I believe that Chameleon is so awesome and unique mechanically that it naturally lends itself to creating characters that feel like chameleons. No matter what you do with the other ten levels of the build a chameleon 10 will be an awesome jack of all trades; a fighter 10/chameleon 10 is a chameleon with a high BAB and extra feats, a rouge 10/ chameleon 10 is a chameleon with extra skills and Sneak attack, a bard 10/chameleon 10 is a chameleon with bardic music, and commoner 10/ chameleon 10 is probably functional in a mid-optimization group (and would be interesting for a jack o' the wiles type character).
Chameleon is full of flavor and unique powerful mechanical abilities. Contestents could certainly create interesting characters but there would be 0 mechanical challenge to it.
As for my feelings on the judging criteria.
Originality: Basically I'll take away points for being similar to an iconic build with the secret ingredient forced in and after that I rate on a scale of "how long did/would it take me to think of this". If something comes out of left field and shocks me I certainly won't take credit away because someone else did the same thing by coincidence though like most I will cite similar builds when pointing out that a build ranks low on originality.
Power: I'll rate in a pretty standard fashion though I will frown on a build that is weaker in it's role than a straight core base class at low levels. Also I will be a bit harder on builds that start out in high tier base classes and are brought down by the secret ingredient. (though I'll be much more leniant on that front in this competition, since you either need to have some casting which usually means higher tiers or let the caster level increases go to waste).
Elegence: Mostly I rate this based on how tempted I'd be to smack somebody who leveled this way at the gaming table. This goes both for using cheese/questionable rulings and for shooting themselves in the foot by taking levels in classes that don't help them.
On the otherhand I don't find moderate dipping inelegent and I have no problem with people going back and forth between classes like for example taking a ToB dip every 3 levels to get a higher level manuever with each level.
Use of Secret Ingrediant: Aside from the obvious "how many levels did you take" I also judge based on how vital the levels are both to your character background and to your tactics.
Big note here: Don't lie to me about what the secret ingredient does for you.
Don't try to convince me that the assassin's mask makes you a TWF Sneak Attacker if that 4d6 is all you have. Or explain how useful a once per day spell-like of a fourth level spell is when you can cast 6th level wizard spells. Not only will you get a 1 in secret ingredient from me but I will point this out in my judging post for anyone who wants to to see.
Chameleon is full of flavor and unique powerful mechanical abilities. Contestents could certainly create interesting characters but there would be 0 mechanical challenge to it.
There are two interpretations that I get from this, one I agree with and one I do not. I think you are saying either A) It's easy to make a Chameleon, which seems similar to Stormwind in that you would be implying that flavor and power are dependent on one another, or B) That Chameleon's have a universal flavor that it's practically impossible to deviate from, no matter what entry you use, so, while flavorful, all applicants would be more or less the same, which is a good point.
Okay, I think I'll drop out of this. I just can't find anything useful for the MoM to do that isn't copying Haberdash. There really is absolutely no point in ever taking more that one level in the class - there aren't enough useful masks and they don't scale well enough,
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi
You know, I think gods are the exception to the rule that "I built you a shrine" is creepy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotel_papa
I maintain that until I see a movie trailer where Patrick Stewart introduces himself as Mordenkainen, there never was and never will be a D&D movie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dixieboy
I am unable to respond due to the awesomness of seducing a god, sorry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalirren
The only person in the past two pages who has known what (s)he has been talking about is Heliomance.
Bah, cancer mage is mostly known for a 1-level disease immunity dip, same as Master of masks and the glad mask. I think we ended up with some really cool builds in that challenge :)
Bah, cancer mage is mostly known for a 1-level disease immunity dip, same as Master of masks and the glad mask. I think we ended up with some really cool builds in that challenge :)
And I have faith that we'll see some very interesting builds here as well.
Okay, I think I'll drop out of this. I just can't find anything useful for the MoM to do that isn't copying Haberdash. There really is absolutely no point in ever taking more that one level in the class - there aren't enough useful masks and they don't scale well enough,
This would be a shame: first challenge in a long time and you're not partecipating. If you want, I'll give you an obscure hint of how mechanically do it efficient. Then, the way shown, we'll fight on the same ground.
Do you mind?
This would be a shame: first challenge in a long time and you're not partecipating. If you want, I'll give you an obscure hint of how mechanically do it efficient. Then, the way shown, we'll fight on the same ground.
Do you mind?
(Disclaimer: not a judge, just spouting opinion)
I'd rather not see 'hints' posted here. It goes against my understanding of discussing builds before the reveal, and could potentially impact the Originality and/or Elegance scores. A hint dropped can make a judge think of a new build s/he hadn't considered before, which, when it shows up in the competition, seems less original and appears to have been created as a result of the hint, rather than the contestant's ingenuity. Things like that.
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(Disclaimer: not a judge, just spouting opinion)
I'd rather not see 'hints' posted here. It goes against my understanding of discussing builds before the reveal, and could potentially impact the Originality and/or Elegance scores. A hint dropped can make a judge think of a new build s/he hadn't considered before, which, when it shows up in the competition, seems less original and appears to have been created as a result of the hint, rather than the contestant's ingenuity. Things like that.
Amphetryon has it right. No speculation about possible builds, and a hint is just that.
So, I just read over haberdash and I have a question for the other judges.
What would constitute copying haberdash? Maybe missed a particular spoiler but it looked liked haberdash was an incomplete build with dozens of options for filling it out. I'm not saying it's not awsome or anything it just seems much broader in scope than most iconic builds.
Is quickdrawing 3 different exotic weapons copying haberdash?
Using Factotum as a base class?
Iajutsu+Quickrazor's?
Taking lots of skill tricks?
I'm not being sarcastic, I'm honestly asking because the first entry
worthy idea I came up with did all of the above except for use factotum and I'd never read haberdash before.
So, I just read over haberdash and I have a question for the other judges.
What would constitute copying haberdash? Maybe missed a particular spoiler but it looked liked haberdash was an incomplete build with dozens of options for filling it out. I'm not saying it's not awsome or anything it just seems much broader in scope than most iconic builds.
Is quickdrawing 3 different exotic weapons copying haberdash?
Using Factotum as a base class?
Iajutsu+Quickrazor's?
Taking lots of skill tricks?
I'm not being sarcastic, I'm honestly asking because the first entry
worthy idea I came up with did all of the above except for use factotum and I'd never read haberdash before.
In general, what you're asking about is originality. If your build is primarily reliant on one of those elements, I probably won't dock you unless it appears that you copped the idea from there. If you're looking at 2-3, your originality will probably be docked: I don't necessarily think you're copying the build, but you've presented something less than innovative.
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Last edited by Ozymandias9 : 06-23-2010 at 12:29 PM.
In general, what you're asking about is originality. If your build is primarily reliant on one of those elements, I probably won't dock you unless it appears that you copped the idea from there. If you're looking at 2-3, your originality will probably be docked: I don't necessarily think you're copying the build, but you've presented something less than innovative.
Indeed. Haberdash to me is the iconic "I am everything" character. If you build a Factotum-based Master of Masks "I am everything"-style character, you have copied Haberdash, IMO.
Indeed. Haberdash to me is the iconic "I am everything" character. If you build a Factotum-based Master of Masks "I am everything"-style character, you have copied Haberdash, IMO.
I hope you would not be literally so strict, 'cause "I am everything" is also the style of... say... Master of Masks
Just got the second submission. Even without Akal participating, the build quality is amazing this time around. Keep 'em coming, because I love seein' 'em.
I hope you would not be literally so strict, 'cause "I am everything" is also the style of... say... Master of Masks
You note I specified a heavy Factotum entry. If you seriously do Factotum 5/MoM 10/Factotum +5 you are not original, you are Haberdash minus some effectiveness and plus some more MoM.
I have a question. How should I determine my build's stats? Point Buy, or some other way?
My 2 bits: 32 point buy is the standard. There have been a couple builds submitted in past contests with 28 point buy, but anything else will likely need to be justified in the presentation (and may quite possibly mean a deduction in either power or elegance).
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78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. [...]Where did you start yours?
A street riot in a major city that was getting violent.
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Last edited by Ozymandias9 : 06-23-2010 at 02:18 PM.
@Prinny: as a pathologic curios, I envy you so much
@Heliomance and others: my hint was pretty simple, pretty generic and it would very unlikely end up on a similar build. To be surer, I step back to a generic, old man hint: read very carefully the text of the secret ingredient, and you'll find a treasure of infinite wisdom, buried in the very heart of Washington D.C.
...no, wait, maybe this is Dan Brown
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VI
Thus far, I have one flavorful trick of questionable legality and functionality that makes a one trick pony, and a build that, while it uses MoM, is certainly easier to make without it.
