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Welcome to the Giant in the Playground Monster Competition chat thread where you can ask questions, comment, or just in general discuss about the submissions to our monthly monster mash.
Hmmm... you probably foreshadowed this in Chat-Thred version II, but this comes as quite a surprise for me...
Will have to think of what to do with it... almost certainly DO want to do something with it, if only because both components of the theme (template, and Epic) have a certain appeal to me.
Oh well, I've been wanting an excuse to create some sort of insanely complex template (one which has a great deal of different outcomes based on the base creature, instead of simply adding a few abilities and subtypes).
For me the surprise was both that you finally decided to go ahead and do a Template contest (we knew you were going to do one one of these days, but it didn't seem like it was likely to be soon), and that you decided on Epic for the theme of the first such outing.
P.S. I am FINALLY remembering to mention that the example creature block in the NORMAL contests has completely the wrong formatting to be Quoting friendly for newbies.
P.P.S. I assume that multiple input creatures (such as occurs with the Tauric template) are acceptable? Also, that randomly makes me ponder the idea of a dual OUTPUT creature...
Well, that sucks. A chance to writesome nifty text in a different prose for and have it compared to the work of others and the theme is thatthe requirement is epic levels...
Ah well, maybe next time.
Edit: Is it possible to enter only half of the competition? More precisely, could I enter a creature/template of too low power and have it invalidated from voting and still have the connected legend considered for that part?
It's either that or i'll just have to make an "elder evil" template, leaving the actual creature still, strictly, a threat for non-epic levels...
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Mine is not so much a Peter Pan Complex as a Peter Pan Doom Fortress and Underground LairTM! Fae-o-matic Want a fae from folklore stated? Give me the lore and I'll do it for you! Le Cirque Funeste Evil Fairy Circus! Ray Bradbury, refined down to snortable powder!
M-Man, there's nothing that says you can't enter and then be disqualified, but I don't think that's what you really wanted to hear.
Epic Templates are hard. I have an idea for one but I'm not sure I'm going to have the time to write it out.
Debby
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P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either.
Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.
Not quite what i was asking really. I hated epic play on both occasions i forayed into it so i have no experience with it. I guess i coul just make a +1 or +0 CR template for epic creatures only and just focus on the writing
Edit: ignore me, i can still [i dunno if this was the intention but i'm all about the maleable spirit] fill this without issue by simple dint of the 20HD+ option. I can still keep my numbers managable! Wee!
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Mine is not so much a Peter Pan Complex as a Peter Pan Doom Fortress and Underground LairTM! Fae-o-matic Want a fae from folklore stated? Give me the lore and I'll do it for you! Le Cirque Funeste Evil Fairy Circus! Ray Bradbury, refined down to snortable powder!
For me the surprise was both that you finally decided to go ahead and do a Template contest (we knew you were going to do one one of these days, but it didn't seem like it was likely to be soon), and that you decided on Epic for the theme of the first such outing.
Do epic this time every year
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P.S. I am FINALLY remembering to mention that the example creature block in the NORMAL contests has completely the wrong formatting to be Quoting friendly for newbies.
In what way?
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P.P.S. I assume that multiple input creatures (such as occurs with the Tauric template) are acceptable? Also, that randomly makes me ponder the idea of a dual OUTPUT creature...
Sure. It's not the sample creatures we're voting on but the template. The Epic can be about the template or the sample creature, either way.
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Re: GITP Monster Competition Chat Thread III
Well, that sucks. A chance to writesome nifty text in a different prose for and have it compared to the work of others and the theme is that the requirement is epic levels...
Ah well, maybe next time.
Edit: Is it possible to enter only half of the competition? More precisely, could I enter a creature/template of too low power and have it invalidated from voting and still have the connected legend considered for that part?
Sorry, all or nuthin'.
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Epic Templates are hard. I have an idea for one but I'm not sure I'm going to have the time to write it out.
Aww, that's why I gave y'all a full month this time.
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Not quite what i was asking really. I hated epic play on both occasions i forayed into it so i have no experience with it. I guess i coul just make a +1 or +0 CR template for epic creatures only and just focus on the writing
Well, I've never really played an epic campaign (that lasted more than a week anyways) but just make it worthy of a CR over 20 and you'll be fine.
Last edited by The Vorpal Tribble : 06-23-2010 at 08:40 AM.
Not quite what i was asking really. I hated epic play on both occasions i forayed into it so i have no experience with it.
I should point out that epic monsters technically include CR 21 dudes who are probably not even strong enough to be a good boss monster at level 20. An epic monster doesn't have to be for epic characters to fight; they might just be for 19-20th-level characters' boss fights. Like most of the Monster Manual's epic dragons are and (for an evil game) a solar might be.
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Everything I wanted to know about the planes I learned at Dicefreaks.
-Member and Project Head of Songs of the Sidhe (Developing fey and Faerie with cohesive flavor and mechanics that extend from 1st level to high-epic)
I came up with a good idea and i'm goint to make a full elder evil template for a cyclic arrising.
I ended up Homebrewing all nine of the Dukes of Hell for the request thread so i may as well use them: Binder gone hideously wrong and turned harmful harbinger of horribleness, anyone?
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Mine is not so much a Peter Pan Complex as a Peter Pan Doom Fortress and Underground LairTM! Fae-o-matic Want a fae from folklore stated? Give me the lore and I'll do it for you! Le Cirque Funeste Evil Fairy Circus! Ray Bradbury, refined down to snortable powder!
I had a thought about using common ideas, such as; greed, strife, pestilence, fear, death, war, etc etc and making them into a "job" like template. Just, something that you acquire.
MY entry, if it will work out, is the DEATH template... The creature with said template actually takes up the position of DEATH INCARNATE, or what have you.
Quick example, Morin, a 2nd level Warrior 1st level Rogue is in a skirmish just outside of town when a stray arrow hits him in the neck. As he lays bleeding in the grass, a shadow slowly approaches from behind, it reaches a long scythe blade to him but pauses momentarily. Morin isn't dead, yet, the figure seems to check an hourglass, pulling back the cowl of his cloak revealing a alabaster skull. Morin reaches for his sword, then thrusts it into the skull, splitting in half. Skip ahead a few odds and ends I will reserve for fluff and such, Morin has usurped Death and is now the deliverer of souls.
So, my big question, has this been done? I know we have Gods(esses) of death and such, but has there been an exact depiction of "The Grim Reaper" or "Death" who single-handedly guides all souls to their appointed place? I am sure I have seen Valkries and the like, but this Death I am making actually cuts the tether of life from said soul and body... Any help GITP??? I googled a bit and checked with some older dudes of lore and they dont seem to recall anything too similar to my idea at all.
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Whale by Darwin, who understands the importance of detail and realism. Whales need air after-all.
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
Where did you start yours?
During the inauguration of an emperor where the "party" was framed for his assassination.
I'd make it something more along the lines of "death chooses people to become his subcontractors". The idea that a 3rd level character can kill the personification of death feels like a bit of a stretch to me...
Grim Reaper is a monster in the Ravenloft line that collects the souls of the dying if that's what you mean. It appears in Denizens of Dread page 107.
Charon also fills that role see: The Tome of Horrors Revised pg.78 for DAEMON: CHARON (BOATMAN OF THE LOWER PLANES).
Debby
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P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either.
Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.
Ah, thanks Debihuman and Bisected8!!!! I will go with the subcontractor... Though after flipping through, I still don't see the same idea, just the same name and basic legend/lore n such. Thanks again! wish me luck
Edit: The killing Death in one hit by a lowly guy was an idea that even in the worst of circumstances, there's still a .0162% of rolling 3 20's... Even Death loses his edge after a few millenniums
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Whale by Darwin, who understands the importance of detail and realism. Whales need air after-all.
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
Where did you start yours?
During the inauguration of an emperor where the "party" was framed for his assassination.
According to the rules: "All entries this month must be a template that either A. increases a creature's CR by 20 or higher or B. Can only be applied to a creature with 20 or more HD. The sample creature need not be original or unique, only the template must."
I just have one comment: creating a template that only increases CR but not HD ends up being a badly designed template. They tend to have significant weaknesses not accounted for that the PCs will exploit. For example, it may be hard to kill due to SR, Damage Reduction, etc. but the PCs will find a way to push it off a cliff so it dies from falling damage. Yes, these things are fun to make, but they are terrible for actual play. See my Paragon Cat of Legend as an example of how bad this can get: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=97.
Debby
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P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either.
Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.
One more thing: these creatures will be epic and everyone will be citing to feats that aren't in the PH, DMG and MM. If you use a feat that isn't in one of these books please cite to it. All you have to do is note which book the feat came from. It saves me a lot of time to not have to Google search every feat to figure out which book it came from so I figure out if the numbers for the statblock are right. You can also link from the Online SRD here: www.D20srd.org.
It also helps to have a Creation Notes section. There's a lot you can put in there that keeps me from losing my mind when I critique these. This is also good if you use house rules to identify them so I don't think something you did on purpose is a mistake.
VT, perhaps you should note in the contests that you've asked me to critique the monsters on this thread.
Debby
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P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either.
Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.
First, Size and Type are missing. It looks like it should be Gargantuan Ooze (Augmented Magical Beast).
Normally, if the HD are unchanged, the creature gains the Augmented subtype.
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Augmented Subtype
A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.
Rough CR estimation using Vorpal Tribble’s Handy-Dandy CR estimator
#1. Divide creature's average HP by 4.5 to 6.5.
4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD., 6.5 for 20-25 HD.
#2. Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, subtracting 1 for every 5 below.
#3. Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if it has a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).
#4. Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.
#5. Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has.
#6. Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR.
390 divided by 6.5 = 60 plus 4 for AC (so close to 5 but it's still only 4) = 64 plus 5 special attacks = 69 plus 11 special qualities = 80 divided by 3 = 26.666.... CR = 26 unless my math is wrong. [And it was initially because I am math impaired].
A 20 HD creature with CR 26 might not be as much as a challenge as you'd hope.
Another thing, you changed all the feats from the initial creature's list of feats. Nowhere in the Template does it state that the creature gains and loses feats. You have some 'splaining to do on this one. A normal Kraken has these feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Improved Critical (tentacle), Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Iron Will.
Did you recalculate the skills for the loss of 2 to Spot and Listen from Alertness?
Debby
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P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either.
Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.
Thanks for the catch on not actually listing Gloopy's type.
I'm not terribly excited about adding hit dice with Chosen of Juiblex because it would make the most sense to make them Ooze hit dice and the possibility of two different kinds of racial hit dice is... worrisome at best. It's probably a better idea to drop the damage on the acid and the constrict and reduce the stat boosts so the CR is more in line with its HD.
Honestly, I changed the feats on the kraken because the listed feats are not very good. It wasn't intended to be part of the template, just DM fiat to make the monster more interesting. Martial Studies generally only come up once an encounter (so once in the monster's life) but they spice up the fight. I wanted to give it Combat Reflexes to really work that prodigious reach but it doesn't have the Dex for it.
I hadn't taken two off of the spot and listen for the lack of alertness, thanks for that too.
By VT's CR guidelines, the stock Kraken is about CR 18, and that's not including its seven possible attacks a round. By the book a Kraken is only CR 12. I guesstimated the template at about a +5, without a rational basis, which makes it 20 HD at CR 17 which is still low. But it has huge Con and Str and is rather frightening in melee which it can do at a large range.
Thanks for the catch on not actually listing Gloopy's type.
Just doing my job here :-)
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I'm not terribly excited about adding hit dice with Chosen of Juiblex because it would make the most sense to make them Ooze hit dice and the possibility of two different kinds of racial hit dice is... worrisome at best. It's probably a better idea to drop the damage on the acid and the constrict and reduce the stat boosts so the CR is more in line with its HD.
You'd never have 2 sets of racial hit dice. Magical Beast or Ooze, the choice is yours. You just have to state it up front as part of the template.
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Honestly, I changed the feats on the kraken because the listed feats are not very good. It wasn't intended to be part of the template, just DM fiat to make the monster more interesting. Martial Studies generally only come up once an encounter (so once in the monster's life) but they spice up the fight. I wanted to give it Combat Reflexes to really work that prodigious reach but it doesn't have the Dex for it.
For what it is worth, don't think the feats that a Kraken has are somehow substandard. The design of a Template is to show case a "standard" representative not a ramped up star of a monster. I understand your concern, but unless you are designing a variant Kraken and then adding the feats, you should stick to the standard monster. You didn't say this was a variant Kraken and I rightly called you out for it.
This is part of what good design is all about. You should be able to take the Template and use on an existing monster without changing the monster first.
You didn't showcase the template, you showcased a new uber Kraken and then added the Template without saying that's what you were doing. I simply called you out on this.
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I hadn't taken two off of the spot and listen for the lack of alertness, thanks for that too.
No problem. But now you know why I hate epic creatures so much. They're a pain to critique.
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By VT's CR guidelines, the stock Kraken is about CR 18, and that's not including its seven possible attacks a round. By the book a Kraken is only CR 12. I guesstimated the template at about a +5, without a rational basis, which makes it 20 HD at CR 17 which is still low. But it has huge Con and Str and is rather frightening in melee which it can do at a large range.
That's why it is an estimator and not a precise calculation. Some special abilities are worth more than others. I probably should have added more points for more powerful abilities. It didn't take into account your more powerful feats either.
You have a decent template and the purpose of the contest is to showcase it, not the souped-up version of a kaken that you then added the template too almost like an aside. You are missing the primary focus.
Here is my recommendation: Take the standard kraken and apply the template normally. See where it needs adjusting. You can alway add a bonus feat if you like or even two. Adding more than two bonus feats means that the creature should probably have additional HD. If the creature doesn't qualify for a feat and you want to hand it out -- give it as a bonus feat. Bonus feats don't have to meet the prerequisites like normal feats do.
Let the Template do the work for you.
Debby
__________________
P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either.
Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.
Hmmm... maybe a fractal template, based on my fractal bears, that can only be applied to creatures above a certain size... I would have to expand on the history of the wizards who were responsible for their creation, and then...
Anyway, does this sound like an idea I should go with? Is it original enough to qualify? Would people vote for it? Someone did say they might have voted for the fractal bears if it weren't for the fact that they were so dangerous they didn't seem funny (which was the theme of that contest...).
Draco, I applaud you if you want to make Fractal Template. At the same time, I'm fairly sure that I'm not really up to critiquing it. I think I have brain damage from the first one.
VT, I think this competition may be more than I can handle for PEACHING. Could you lend a hand with some especially the Challenge Ratings. That's my weakest skill. I don't want to steer any of our contestants wrong.
Also, I'll be off line for a few days as I'll be on the road. I should be back by next Wednesday.
Debby
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P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either.
Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.
My method preferred method is to forget about the rules to start with (at least mostly) and just imagine what the thing IS and/or what it DOES... then build mechanics around that.
Many templates change the type of the creature.
Also, try reading the linked threads in the sticky thread at the top of the homebrew forums.
Hyooz, you've done exactly what I said not to do. A template that adds CR 25 to a 1 HD monster without a commensurate increase in HD is not a good idea (more on that later but let's get to the meat of this template)
Your Medium Humanoid is missing its subtype (Human, Elf, etc.). I'd guess Human but it is missing a feat in that case. It is also missing its hit points. It should have 6. Also where did the +2 bonus hit points come from? It has a Con of 10. It also has the wrong attack if it owns a longbow. The longbow is missing from its attacks. Unarmed attack or Longbow. It is also missing Omniscient from its Special Qualities.
Your sample creature shows a CR of 20 but the CR listed in your template is +25, so I'm not sure what you were trying to do. It looks like you meant to say that the Challenge Rating: You add +25 to the base creature's existing CR (but that isn't what you did in the sample creature as it's CR is only 20 and it should be 25).
Where do the increase in Str and Dex come from? You state that it can change its Dex and Str scores but there should be a mechanic that goes with it. Can it swap Dex and Str or does it just pick it? If it is picked then there should be a way to keep it from being an excess for its CR rating, otherwise you are making a monster that has the potential to have ludicrous numbers for its CR. 70 Str for CR 25 is fine. 20,000,000 Str for CR 25 is stupid and yet that's what will be done with this template.
You neglected to say what the AC bonus was and what it is based on. Again if you give it any number freely you are going to exceed the CR and that isn't fair to the players. Put a cap on it to match CR, otherwise it might have a million bonus AC and that's just stupid. It looks to me like it gains a +25 armor bonus but you should state it outright.
Saves: What is the sacred bonus? It needs a mechanic here to go with it. This creature doesn't have an alignment requirement so why a sacred bonus? Evil creatures should get a profane bonus or there should be an alignment restriction. See your sample creature's alignment.
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A sacred bonus (or penalty) stems from the power of good. Multiple sacred bonuses on the same character or object do not stack. Only the highest sacred bonus applies.
Omnipotence: You need to list exactly what abilities are affected and that it affects spellcasting because it is too vague. He doesn't roll for initiative, attack, damage, saving throws etc.? He just gets to pick a number out of thin air? That's just asking for abuse. Why not just create the TPK and be done instead of bothering to apply this template. And how do you expect it to be CR 20? That's CR far more than 25 or 100. Unlimited power is unlimited abuse. Bad, bad idea. Again, a cap on this would be useful. The only truly omnipotent beings should be deities and this creature doesn't have a Divine Rank. Actually if this Template added a Divine Rank of 1 that would make a lot more sense but it doesn't. See SRD for more on Divine Rank.
Now, I did say that low HD was going to be its downfall. I have just one spell for you: magic missile. No save. It just does 1d4+1 damage at first level. At 9th level, it does 1d4+5 points of damage. Your creature has 6 hit points. A hit from magic missile does at least 6 points of damage (no save) and odds are that it will do 2 or more points. At 0 hit points, you can still heal yourself, but if it does 2 point of damage your sample creature is at -1 HP becomes unconscious and is dying. It can't heal itself because it is unconscious. So all the PCs need to do is stand around and wait for it to lose 1 hit point each round until it is dead. One spell and a low-level one at that will kill your omnipotent child. Of course, Power Word Kill does the same (it's not a critical hit and has no save) but why waste that when magic missile is just as effective?
Debby
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P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either.
Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.
Looks like I missed a lot of stuff in the mess of text the template/monster ended up being. I'll clean up the inconsistencies and wrong-ness in places. That's what I get for working on it so sporadically. Thoughts get lost here and there >.<
A lot of your concerns I had in mind as I was making the template, and I might need to make a *Special Note* or something for CR, because while stuff like 20,000,000 Str is silly powerful, that's kind of the idea. I mean, yes, it's ludicrously powerful, and the template is stupidly abusable, but it's omnipotence. A DM who abuses the template is going to abuse his power anyway, and a DM who lets a player take it in a normal game is clearly out of his mind.
And yes, I know the HD concern is there, and it looks really stupid on paper, but I did it for a reason. A creature with all the power the -potence part of the triad gives it should only die if it lacks the intelligence and wisdom to use it properly. As written, magic missile wins outright, but a creature that can cast every arcane and divine spell at will, more than likely, have protections up. More than defense, but temporary HP and such out the wazoo. A smart creature/DM/player behind the wheel of this thing will make it effectively invincible. I agree it can be wholly ridiculous on its own, but I think it can also be a useful tool in the DM's arsenal.
That's not reflected on the sample creature because I honestly wasn't sure what to do with it. Several of its stats are wholly arbitrary (by design) and a lot of the other changes are going to come from spells, and aside from scouring the PHB and the SpC for every spell it might have active at any given moment, there's no good way to demonstrate what might be possible.
This isn't to say your concerns aren't legitimate. I had (and have) a lot of the same ones, but when I set out to make a template to make a creature omnipotent (or omniscient... or omnipresent... which might be its own separate issue) well... some aspects of typical good design were going to take a hit.
I'm grateful for the critique, don't get me wrong. I knew this would be rough >.<
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GITP Monster Competition Chat Thread III
Re: GITP Monster Competition Chat Thread III
Re: GITP Monster Competition Chat Thread III
