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Cost: The cost in gold pieces to craft a poison is equal to its craft dc times 7. Normal market price is six times this.
Primary and secondary effects: Poison has both primary effects, which take effect immediately, and secondary effects, which take effect one minute afterward.
Improved die type and additional die: Each die used in a poison has a specific cost. These dice are assigned to effects. If more than half of the dice are assigned to the poison's secondary effect, all primary effect dice cost only half. Secondary effect dice always cost only half. Round the total cost of the dice down.
Die
Craft DC Modifier
d4
+3
d6
+4
d8
+5
d10
+6
d12
+7
Ingested poison: The poison takes effect when ingested. An ingested-only poison subtracts 5 from the craft dc of the poison. If the poison has multiple vectors, this trait adds 2 to the craft dc.
Injury poison: This poison takes effect when it contacts a wound. This poison is normally smeared on a weapon. Injury-only poison adds nothing to the craft dc, but if the poison has multiple vectors, it adds 2 to the craft dc.
Inhaled poison: Inhaled poison in usually wafted into the air or thrown in a breakable container. Inhaled poison adds +5 to the craft dc.
Contact poison: Contact poison takes effect when it touches a creature. Contact poison adds +5 to the craft dc.
Fortitude DC: The fortitude dc of the poison is equal to 10 plus 1 per point assigned to this trait. +2 craft dc per point.
Exotic: The poison is rare and therefore less known. Every point assigned to this trait increases dcs to recognize or detect the poison by 3.
No antidote: This poison itself is not affected by any attempt to delay or neutralize it. The poison's effect, however, may be healed or repaired normally. This trait does not bypass any immunities a creature might possess. This trait adds 5 to the craft dc.
Tenacious effect: The poison's effects cannot be repaired easily. Any magical or mundane attempts to remove or heal the poison's effects require a heal check equal to the poison's fort save plus 2 per point in this ability. This trait does not apply to natural healing.
Persistent: The poison can be used multiple times after being applied. Add +2 to the craft dc for each additional use, and multiply the final cost of the poison by the total number of time the poison can be used.
Overwhelming: This poison affects living creatures otherwise immune to poison, and ignores any immunity to the poison's effects a living creature might possess. Add 5 to the craft dc of the poison.
Corrosive: The poison ignores the immunity to poison of nonliving creatures and objects. Additionally, the poison ignores any immunity to this poison's effects that nonliving creatures and objects may possess(though it cannot affect abilities that do not have a score). Add 10 to the craft dc of the poison.
Wounding: A creature affected by this poison slowly takes damage. The creature takes a given amount of hit point damage each round. A dc 15 heal check or any amount of magical healing stops this damage. Add +2 to the craft dc for each point of damage the creature will take each round.
Poison requires expensive substances: This trait reduces the craft dc by 5, but the poison's final cost is tripled.
Poison is cheap: This trait increases the craft dc by 5, but the poison's final cost is divided by three.
Affects single type of creature: The poison affects only a single category of creature. This category may be as broad or narrow as the creature chooses. This trait costs nothing.
Affects all creatures: The poison affects all creatures. This trait costs nothing.
Affects all creatures with exceptions: The poison affects all creatures except for categories of the creator's choosing. These categories may be as broad or narrow as the creator chooses. Each exception adds 5 to the craft dc of the poison.
Affects several types of creatures: The poison affects multiple categories of creatures. These categories may be as broad or narrow as the creator chooses. Each category of creature after the first adds 5 to the craft dc of the poison.
Poison deals ability damage: Assign dice to ability score damage. This trait costs nothing.
Poison deals ability drain: Assign dice to ability score drain. This trait adds 5 to the craft dc.
Poison causes deafness: Creature becomes deaf. Assign dice to the duration of the deafness. This trait costs nothing when the duration is measured in rounds, +1 in minutes, +2 in hours, and +3 in days.
Poison causes dazzling: Creature becomes dazzled. Assign dice to the duration of the dazzling. This trait costs nothing when the duration is measured in rounds, +1 in minutes, +2 in hours, and +4 in days.
Poison causes sickness: Creature becomes sickened. Assign dice to the duration of the sickness. This trait costs -2 when the duration is measured in rounds, +0 in minutes, +1 in hours, and +2 in days.
Poison causes fascination: Creature becomes fascinated with some nearby object or creature. Assign dice to the duration of the fascination. This trait costs -2 when the duration is measured in rounds, 0 in minutes, +1 in hours, and +2 in days.
Poison causes knockdown: Being affected by the poison forces the creature to be prone, and the creature can only move at half speed. This trait costs 0 when the duration is measured in rounds, +1 in minutes, +2 in hours, and +4 in days.
Poison causes blindness: Creature becomes blind. Assign dice to the duration of the blindness. This trait costs +0 when the duration is measured in rounds, +1 in minutes, +2 in hours, and +3 in days.
Poison causes nauseated: Creature becomes nauseated. Assign dice to the duration of the nauseation. This trait costs +2 when the duration is measured in rounds, +3 in minutes, +5 in hours, and +8 in days.
Poison causes stunning: Creature becomes stunned. Assign dice to the duration of the stun. This trait costs +3 when the duration is measured in rounds, +5 in minutes, +8 in hours, and +12 in days.
Poison causes dazing: Creature becomes dazed. Assign dice to the duration of the daze. This trait costs +4 when the duration is measured in rounds, +6 in minutes, +9 in hours, and +14 in days.
Poison causes paralysis: Creature becomes paralyzed. Assign dice to the duration of the paralyzation. This trait costs +6 when the duration is measured in rounds, +9 in minutes, +14 in hours, and +21 in days.
Poison causes unconsciousness: Creature becomes unconscious. Assign dice to the duration of the unconsciousness. This trait costs +7 when the duration is measured in rounds, +11 in minutes, +17 in hours, and +26 in days.
Example poisons:
Spoiler
Heartwither
Injury DC 20 Primary 2d8, Secondary 0
Trait
Craft DC Modifier
Injury poison
+0
2d8
+10
Fort dc +10
+20
affects all creatures
+5
deals ability damage(2d8 con)
+0
Total craft DC
35
Total Cost
700 gp
As soon as heartwither enters a creature's bloodstream, its arteries shrivel, starving the heart and provoking a heart attack.
Gunge
Ingestion Fort dc 21 (triggered) Primary Nausea 1d4 days, Secondary none
Trait
Craft DC Modifier
Ingested poison
-5
1d4
+3
Fort dc +11
+22
Affects all creatures
+0
Causes nausea(days)
+8
Trigger condition
+5
Expensive
-5
Total craft DC
22
Total Cost
1320 gp
Gunge is an ingested poison used to prevent particularly high-value individuals from escaping. When a creature who has ingested gunge attempts to take more than one move action in a round, it begins to retch and vomit.
Thud
Inhaled DC 15 Primary prone 1d4 rounds, secondary none
Trait
Craft DC Modifier
Inhaled poison
+5
Fort dc +5
+10
Affects all creatures
+0
1d4
+3
Causes knockdown (1d4 rounds)
0
Cheap
+5
Total craft DC
24
Total Cost
160 gp
Thud is a misty yellow gas normally thrown using a glass bottle. When the bottle breaks, it releases the gas and all creatures within ten feet who fail their saves collapse to the ground.
Bloodletter
Injury DC 15 Primary 1d4 con, secondary none
Trait
Craft DC Modifier
Injury poison
+0
Fort dc +5
+10
Affects all creatures
+0
1d4 con damage
+3
Cheap
+5
Persistent 1
+2
Total craft DC
20
Total Cost
267 gp
Bloodletter is a thick sticky substance applied to bladed weapons. When a creature is affected by bloodletter, its blood becomes thinned, causing heavy bleeding whenever it takes damage.
Gutrot
Ingested DC 25 Primary 2d8 con, secondary 3d8 con
Trait
Craft DC Modifier
Ingested poison
-5
Fort dc +15
+30
Affects all creatures
+0
5d8 con damage, majority secondary
+12
Expensive
-5
Total craft DC
32
Total Cost
1920 gp
So named for the blackened mess that its victims become, Gutrot is a powerful, though expensive, tool of assassination. The number of known survivors can be counted on one elbow.
I like a customizable poison table. (I love poison) But it seems as arbitary as having none at all.
Like when I was going to make poisons for a game, it should only effect some creatures, I'd list some that had evolved or adapted to be unresponsive to it. If I just said "orcs are uneffected", it seems more flavorful then mechanically effected. But if I said all goblinoids are uneffected by it, (and I think orc should be considered a goblinoid) then we're going somewhere. Perhaps a -1 craft DC and -10 gold for every large group. -1 gold for every individual creature.
Here's some poisons I was going to make...
Nitrogen Mustard:
Trait
Craft DC Modifier
Inhaled poison
+5
Fort dc +5
+5
Affects all creatures
+0
Innitial Damage: 2d8 con
+10
Secondary Danage: 0
+0
Total craft DC
20
Total Cost
400 gp
Sulfer Mustard:
Trait
Craft DC Modifier
Inhaled Poison
+5
Fort DC +5
+5
Affects all creatures
+0
Innitial Damage: 0
+0
Secondary Damage: 4d8 con
+20
Total Craft DC
30
Total Cost:
600 gp
This all looks pretty legitamate at first. But in the details it isn't. Sulfer mustard costs 200gp more to make when it's much less likely to succeed. Sure, if it does, it deals an additional 2d8 constitution damage. But that first requires the innitial damage to take effect, and I'll have to wait a minute. By a minute, my foe could be dead anyway. Ceartainly it is powerful, but it isn't direct. So I think secondary damage should only cost it's innitial DC x10 in gold rather then double x10. Thus, they both would cost 400 gold to make. Nitrogen mustard would have the advantage of being direct applying poison, and with a far more reasonabele craft DC, and sulfar mustard would kill just about anything if you have a minute to spare.
I figure a poison should be compared to ray of enfeeblement, a first level spell. Lets take a scroll of ray of enfeeblement as an example of how much it would cost under your table...
Ray of Enfeeblement:
Trait
Craft DC
Inhaled, Contact, Injury
+15
Fort DC +1
+1
Affects all creatures
+0
Innitial Damage: 1d6 str
+4
Secondary Damage: 0
+0
Total Craft DC
20
Total Cost
400gp
Mind you, a ray of enfeeblement can only limit a creature to 1 strength, such a penalty may reduce the total craft DC by -2 tops. But considering even the market price of a ray of enfeeblement scroll is only 50 gold. There's just no way to ratify this. And though many creatures possess spell resistance or spell immunity, just as many are immune to poisons. So in essence, poisons get punished for what magic does without even thinking about it.
But then that seemed to be the case with everything. Lower editions dictated that magic was allowed "because it was magic", but expected other options to be viable. About the only real limitation is a scroll would require you know the spell yourself, or have use magic device and make a skillcheck. Again, this could theoretically reduce the total craft DC. Maybe by -4 each. So a -10 total. Craft DC 10, total cost 200gp. It's still expensive, but atleast now it's starting to make more sense compared to the rest of the game.
Mostly I was trying to convey that stimulations on anything should be noted when reducing a demanding DC or cost of any sort. Really, D&D is just too abstract most of the time to worry about if it's balanced and trying to mathamaticaly deduce it. It's better to just come up with an idea that excites you, work it out so it doesn't appear EXTREMELY powerful, and run it over by your DM and convince him to let you use it.
I mean think about it. Imagine you tell your DM you want to play a venom knight. It's like a fighter that uses magic to deliver poison with every attack. You have mana that each poison costs different amounts of mana to use. When you runout. Thats it for you for the day. Your DM probably wouldn't much care and think whoopty friggin doo. A debuffing oriented psionics build. If you don't overdo it with the points and are only delivering poison attacks a few times a day, your DM probably won't even notice.
As opposed to crafting poisons, which actually tend to make them more suspicious, despite how it requires "down-time" and really eats up your character finances... I mean perhaps you're more interested in the fluff of bartering at a musty old shop arguing with the clerk of whether to add salt or vinnegar to the composition to make it really potent. But me? I just want to spill toxic goo all over everything... I don't want to have the highest damage count, I want to incapcitate the foe. Make him have to wear diapers for the rest of his life and remember my name...
I guess you could say you're good alignment poison maker, and I'm evil alignment...
It's too easy and cheap to buy poisons that are basically save or dies.
For instance, at level 1, taking 20, we can assume that with light optimization, you can hit a DC 30 check (not so much optimization as "skill focus in craft: poison, really).
For instance, an Injury Poison dealing 2d12 charisma damage with a fort save of 16 is easily makable at level one; granted, its not going to be a guaranteed kill, since most people would probably make their save 25-50% of the time, and high charisma types would live, but it's definitely going to hurt. Con damage as well, but since charisma is a dump stat it would actually kill whoever it hit most of the time.
Assume a bit more optimization and give them +5 more to the check (four ranks, three from a feat, and eight from stats/various bonuses from, for instance, minor buffs from spellcasting)... then it could be DC 21 (very likely to affect your enemies at level one) or deal an extra D8 of charisma damage, (nearly) guaranteeing a kill on anything but a person who put an 18 in the stat.
Granted, that's just at level one; assuming you pimp out your check, which is easily possible, you could be making DC 40 poisons that instagib your enemies with con damage by level 15 or so.
EDIT: As another side note, daze should cost more than stunning.
EDIT: As a second side note, all poisons can freely add dazzling and deafening to them along with their normal damage, which is weird, unless you mean that those status effects replace the normal effect of the poison.
Last edited by Milskidasith : 06-29-2010 at 02:49 AM.
This all looks pretty legitamate at first. But in the details it isn't. Sulfer mustard costs 200gp more to make when it's much less likely to succeed. Sure, if it does, it deals an additional 2d8 constitution damage. But that first requires the innitial damage to take effect, and I'll have to wait a minute. By a minute, my foe could be dead anyway. Ceartainly it is powerful, but it isn't direct. So I think secondary damage should only cost it's innitial DC x10 in gold rather then double x10. Thus, they both would cost 400 gold to make. Nitrogen mustard would have the advantage of being direct applying poison, and with a far more reasonabele craft DC, and sulfar mustard would kill just about anything if you have a minute to spare.
Secondary damage dice always contribute only half their given value to the craft dc. So your sulfur mustard would be craft dc 20, cost 400.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corporate M
I figure a poison should be compared to ray of enfeeblement, a first level spell. Lets take a scroll of ray of enfeeblement as an example of how much it would cost under your table...
What would you suggest? I could easily lower the pricing. Additionally, you could use the Cheap trait. Perhaps I should have Cheap reduce the price to a third rather than half?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milskidasith
For instance, at level 1, taking 20, we can assume that with light optimization, you can hit a DC 30 check (not so much optimization as "skill focus in craft: poison, really).
Can't take 20 on any craft check, since failure has a negative effect. I did forget about skill focus though and am raising the craft dc a bit. Edit: on second thought, a level 1 character can't afford to create dc 20 poison without the cheap trait anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milskidasith
EDIT: As another side note, daze should cost more than stunning.
I assume you're referring to how certain creatures are immune to stun but not daze?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milskidasith
EDIT: As a second side note, all poisons can freely add dazzling and deafening to them along with their normal damage, which is weird, unless you mean that those status effects replace the normal effect of the poison.
You have to assign duration dice to them. Have a look at the Gunge example poison.
Can't take 20 on any craft check, since failure has a negative effect. I did forget about skill focus though and am raising the craft dc a bit. Edit: on second thought, a level 1 character can't afford to create dc 20 poison without the cheap trait anyway.
I forgot about the "failing by five or more ruins the materials" thing (though, technically, by the rules you could just be assumed to have failed once to take twenty). Still, even without taking twenty you can get some absurd poisons by level 10.
Quote:
I assume you're referring to how certain creatures are immune to stun but not daze?
If by "certain people" you mean basically everybody who wants to be immune to stun, yes. Stun immunity is very, very easy.
Quote:
You have to assign duration dice to them. Have a look at the Gunge example poison.
Ah. That makes the conditions pretty much worthless, then.
Last edited by Milskidasith : 06-29-2010 at 12:13 PM.
I LOVE the idea. Would need to do a through check for balance (and I'm not going to), but the kind of system is one I have wanted someone to make for quite a bit.
Persistent should probably have a much smaller increase to the craft DC, and a much larger one to the cost. So maybe 210% cost for two uses (so 5% more expensive per use), 320% cost for three uses, and 430% for three..."
Also, "No Antidote" should probably only affect non-magical cures... or at least you need to specifiy if it only prevents Remove Poison etc from working, or if it also turns the damage into burn (Drain+Burn would be completely broken).
I have a mild personal interest in this thread since I am trying to create an undead that necromancers can make that manufactures its own ingested poison.
Persistent should probably have a much smaller increase to the craft DC, and a much larger one to the cost. So maybe 210% cost for two uses (so 5% more expensive per use), 320% cost for three uses, and 430% for three..."
Good idea, I have made persistent add two to the craft dc and multiply the final price. The craft dc increase applies to the final price, so there's no need to mess with weird multipliers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DracoDei
Also, "No Antidote" should probably only affect non-magical cures... or at least you need to specifiy if it only prevents Remove Poison etc from working, or if it also turns the damage into burn (Drain+Burn would be completely broken).
Clarified the No Antidote trait to apply only to attempts to remove the poison itself and added a new trait, Tenacious effect, which makes the poison's effects more difficult to repair. This also put me on a tangent, and I have added two other traits. Overwhelming bypasses any immunity to poison a living creature might have, and Corrosive bypasses the immunities of nonliving creatures and objects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DracoDei
I have a mild personal interest in this thread since I am trying to create an undead that necromancers can make that manufactures its own ingested poison.
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