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It turns out that nobody did the build I was thinking about.
In case you're curious, my idea was to skip the obvious Duskblade etc. and go with a straight caster. I was thinking of a human Conjurer 6/Ruathar 1/Green Star Adept 10/Conjurer +2.
It is kind of what Xiaojing did. Conjurer 6/Ruathar 1 has base attack 3 and does not qualify for Arcanamach, though.
Sidenote: vote Ardent Dilettante for the next Iron Chef!
Last edited by true_shinken : 07-11-2010 at 10:48 AM.
It is kind of what Xiaojing did. Conjurer 6/Ruathar 1 has base attack 3 and does not qualify for Arcanamach, though.
Sidenote: vote Ardent Dilettante for the next Iron Chef!
If I had actually posted my build I would have checked for that kind of thing... I misremembered the BAB of Ruathar 1. Oh well, it's not like that matters and due to my very very limited access to prestige classes it's not like I'm likely to be competing in the future.
I like that idea a lot, Nerdanel. I think going necropolitan (Libris Mortis) would be a good use for the overall build idea, since it gives the same immunity to poisons, plus then you can take the Lifesight feat, which is a lot like Blindsight, plus you'd only lose 3K experience to do so.
There's a lot of fog and cloud based spells out there that don't get much use, so a character based around them would be kind of cool.
So cool, in fact, that I just made a homebrew PrC for one!
The Argyiamancer
Spoiler
4Hd/level, skills as a wizard + listen/spot/hide/move silently, Good will saves, 1/2 BAB
Requirements: Able to cast at least 3 cloud or fog type spells such as Stinking Cloud or Solid Fog, or their equivalent invocations. Caster level 5th.
What qualifies as a Fog or cloud spell: Such spells include, but are not limited to: Obscuring Mist, Fog Cloud, Stinking Cloud, Solid Fog, Acid Fog, Cloudkill, and Incendiary Cloud. Work with your DM to determine whether spells from new sourcebooks fit in with the above spells. From the SC: Kelgore's Grave Mist, Cloud of Bewilderment, Malevolent Miasma, Contagious Fog, and Freezing Fog all fit the criteria.
1st level:
-Eyes in the Fog: You can see up to 20ft without problems in fog and clouds, both magical and non-magical. This increases by 10ft per level of the prestige class, up to 60ft at 5th level.
-Gas exposure: You become immune to inhaled poisons and spells that create inhaled poisons, such as Cloudkill.
-Spontaneous casting: You can spontaneously cast the following spells as a cleric does with cure or inflict spells. A sorcerer gains these spells as spells known when he is able to cast them, and a wizard adds these spells to his spellbook. A warlock may spontaneously cast these spells only if he has an invocation of the appropriate spell level to "sacrifice" - he cannot make use of that invocation again while the spell is still in effect.
1st: Obscuring Mist
2nd: Fog Cloud
3rd: Stinking Cloud
4th: Solid Fog
5th: Cloudkill
6th: Freezing Fog (SpC)
7th: Cloudkill, empowered
8th: Incendiary Cloud
9th: Cloudkill, empowered and maximized
- No casting advancement at 1st level.
2nd level:
-Mastery of Clouds: Your effective caster level for fog or cloud spells increases by 2.
-Deceptive Fog: When you cast any fog or cloud spell, you may choose to have it appear visually as an Obscuring Mist or Fog Cloud spell. The spell's effects (size, damage, range, etc) are unchanged.
- +1 Casting for any class
3rd level:
-Fog of War: Your fog and cloud spells are automatically widened with no additional cost.
- +1 Casting for an arcane or divine class.
4th level:
-At home in the clouds: You are immune to the effects of your own fog and cloud spells. You would not take damage from an Incendiary Cloud that you cast yourself, for example, and your vision would be unhindered by your own obscuring mist spell. This protection does not extend to your allies.
- +1 Casting for an arcane or divine class.
5th level:
-Choking clouds: You may choose 1 of the following effects to apply to your cloud or fog spells in addition to their normal effects:
-Creatures within the cloud must succeed on a fort save or be nauseated for 1 round and sickened for 2d4 rounds.
-Creatures within the cloud must succeed on a will save or be frightened for 1 round and shaken for 2d4 rounds
-Creatures within the cloud must succeed on a reflex save or be blinded for 1 round and dazzled for 2d4 rounds
- +1 Casting for an arcane or divine class.
The problem with major active use of the secret ingredient is that nearly all of the abilities are passive, or build upon something else. The +Spellcaster level and +CLs, the main abilities of the class, all augement another class, be it wizard, sorcerer, warlock, suel arcanamach, or sublime chord. The spells you get from those classes are gonna overshadow pretty much everything in the build because they are SPELLS.
The other abilities, besides the slam, are all passive. +Str and +NA are things that is hard to really showcase other than a note, same with the immunities. The slam attack, IMO, is one of the coolest features given that very few classes give you free natural attacks, and almost nobody made reference to having it or using it.
Its not a showcase class. Its has almost no active abilities of its own that bring it to the forefront in a build. If you emphasis its spellcasting, well, spellcasting is WAY better gotten from any other class. If you emphasis its resistances and immunties, you get most of them from the +0 LA Warforged class. There just isn't any good way to glorify something that can be gotten through other means, and we were all marked down a lot for it so far...
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A beholder’s favorite foods include small live mammals, exotic mushrooms and other fungi, gnomes, beef, pork, colorful leafy vegetables, leaves, flower petals, insects, and birds.
Cloud Walk
Being able to walk on vapors such as clouds and your own spells.
Cloudy Casting
All spells using this metamagic affect create a small cloud around their affects that lasts for 1 round. Those that venture within the location of this cloud are affected by the spell, though gain a bonus to saves/take half damage or whatnot. Can do with some elaboration, just throwing out the idea. for example a fireball that whooshes out leaves a burning trail of smoke.
Amorphous Enamored
You may shape your cloud spells for free as if you had the Sculpt Spell metamagic feat.
One of the things I've noticed about 1/2 casting classes... if used to advance a 10/10 casting class (assassin, suel archanamach, etc...), you don't end up loosing any caster levels, if you are careful. This lets you leverage the 1/2 casting prestige class abilities without sacrificing too much in the way of magical might.
The problem with major active use of the secret ingredient is that nearly all of the abilities are passive, or build upon something else. The +Spellcaster level and +CLs, the main abilities of the class, all augement another class, be it wizard, sorcerer, warlock, suel arcanamach, or sublime chord. The spells you get from those classes are gonna overshadow pretty much everything in the build because they are SPELLS.
The other abilities, besides the slam, are all passive. +Str and +NA are things that is hard to really showcase other than a note, same with the immunities. The slam attack, IMO, is one of the coolest features given that very few classes give you free natural attacks, and almost nobody made reference to having it or using it.
Its not a showcase class. Its has almost no active abilities of its own that bring it to the forefront in a build. If you emphasis its spellcasting, well, spellcasting is WAY better gotten from any other class. If you emphasis its resistances and immunties, you get most of them from the +0 LA Warforged class. There just isn't any good way to glorify something that can be gotten through other means, and we were all marked down a lot for it so far...
That sums up my feelings about the ingredient better than I could have expressed it myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble
Further ideas for that PrC...
Cloud Walk
Being able to walk on vapors such as clouds and your own spells.
Cloudy Casting
All spells using this metamagic affect create a small cloud around their affects that lasts for 1 round. Those that venture within the location of this cloud are affected by the spell, though gain a bonus to saves/take half damage or whatnot. Can do with some elaboration, just throwing out the idea. for example a fireball that whooshes out leaves a burning trail of smoke.
Amorphous Enamored
You may shape your cloud spells for free as if you had the Sculpt Spell metamagic feat.
I like those ideas!
Edit: Hey, now I'm a bugbear in the playground! Awesome! +4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma, and favored class: rogue!
I have to say, in advance, that I liked all and every submissions. If it was me to judge, without parameter, I probably had a different chart. Following Iron Chef rules will be painful for me, so take at least some judgements as harsh, but necessary.
Byerek Originality: 2.5. Duskblade and Abjurant Champion are tipical associations to GSA. Max strength, power attack and wraithstrike are also typical. Sorry to tell you, but despite paladin, this was not so original. Power: 4.5. The reason because your choiches are so common is because they work. This PC should make most enemies break and run, this is why the score. Elegance: 2. No good backstory, one dip in Suel Arcanamach and Abjurant Champion in the middle of GSA does not help you. The rest is ok, as far I can see, so you're just a 0.5 under average. Use of secret ingredient: 2.5 You just use Strenght modifier to a good extent and the rest seems to be there and mostly unused. You choose to not go all 10 and since it would hit you very hard, I feel it is a good decision, so, counted, there is a +0.5
Starryeyes
Oh my, oh my. Originality: 5. Halfling: not expected. Bard: not expected. Saint: really not expected. Keeper of the Cerulean Sign: are you kiddin'? And, besides, if weren't for the link... what the hell is a chordevoc?!? Power: 3. Your attacks are weak and I feel you really could do something better to fix it. Nevertheless, your AC and defences (mobility is a defence) are really strong. Other powers are too situationals to be effective. Just to say, an encounter via mirror of opposition would kill you - for boredom, and along with anyone else. Elegance: 4.5. This is where backstory makes points. Since it is the best I ever saw, I really wanted to give you better. But the one dip in ranger would cause this Pc to have a penality in XP for multiclassing. Really, really sorry. Use of secret ingredient: 3.5. This is the best use of secret ingredient since now. It is for flavour reasons and because it seems that backstory came first and then the GSA.
Mordenstein
Where have I read this? Originality: 4. I would rate you better, but my first thought was dread necromancer and grafts. You didn't used the grafts I was thinking, but this hurts a bit. You would have had a minus there if weren't for Fleshwarper. This part was totally unexpected (and so, congrats) Power: 4. This thing is scary. By any meaning. It isn't too high since by 20th level core tactics are usually hijacked by things like deathward and mind blank and since I see no melee. Elegance: 3. It would be more, but I really would have liked to know how the DOC does in melee and how can he resist. No stats means more "figure it out" for me, so less elegance Use of Secret Ingredient: 3.5 Best use, ex aequo. Clever exploitation and good consistency with backstory and overall idea.
Stardream Originality: 2. As already said, duskblade was totally expected: a free feat is a free feat. Knight was too, to a certain extent and fighter was all except unexpected. Power: 2.5. You could do better. Caster levels are not optimized, nor is your attack source and output. I don't like Monkey Grip since you can find somewere else something better (MIC, bracers, take a look) and since a -2 to attack is never good. That said, a solid build, so you take average point. Elegance: 2.5. Erratic level progression. I personally distasted the knight/GSA alternation, since it seemed not tied to any usefulness and nor tied to the story. Story that was quite good, besides, which brings you on par. Use of Secret Ingredient: 3. I was thinking a 2.5, and this is written in my notepad. Besides, you managed to explain why he goes GSA in an original way and I really feel this is a good story-related use of secret ingredient.
Kao Lei
I didn't liked this entry at all. I feel I still don't like it, but in some way I consider it a solid entry. Originaity: 3.5. Savage bard and paladin of freedom came from nowhere. As already said, Abjurant Champion was really expected and that penalizes you. Power: 3.5. This is very good, expecially the one level of Sublime chord. Good tactics, good versatility, good combat notes to be better used. Elegance: 3. Too erratic, too many dips. Necessaries, I concur, but a penalty. Since all the rest is ok, that would not be an advantage, not a disvantage. I liked the effort on your backstory, which grants you a +0.5, but if I can, next time try to be more catching Use of Secret Ingredient: 3. Better without, but thematically good choiche.
Glorgen Originality: 4. Are you kidding me? The only thing I was expecting was warlock, not even my first though. It is... I'm speechless. You can curse chordevocs and eldritch glaive if you haven't got a 5. Power: 4. Eldritch glaive to power attack with is a renown, powerful resource. And it is painful. I'm not quite sure if it is legal, but in my games there is ever something worst, so go for it. Elegance: 3.5. The eldritch glaive use is a penalty here, since it is questionable. Another penalty is your backstory: I really feel there was room for something special, something better. But only 3 classes, a not too erratic leveling and good concept mesh are all a plus. Use of Secret Ingredient: 2. Sorry, it seems your entry would be way better without GSA, there is no strong and tasteful tight with backstory (one of the spots you could improve) and, overall, it seems you're a warlock unadvertedly dipped in GSA.
Wu
I liked it, but you could do it better (really hope to see you work again) Originality: 4.5 Wu Jen + Anima Mage. Quite self explainatory. Power: 3.5. You would have better, but there is something that does not work as you intended. Elegance: 1.5. Anima mage early qualification is a major problem. It does not work as you intended, since you seem to bind vestiges and choose what power they grant to you, unless to stick with the table of the feat. Moreover, even if your DM allows you this early qualification method, your first leve of Anima Mage is also your first level in full binder (you can't continue in the "one power" line, since you would come to vestiges unrated in the table... and then?). Spell selection is a problem too. The story is good, which is a + 0.5 for you.
Really sorry to under-rate you this way. Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.5 Your entry seems like "how to enter GSA without getting too hurt by that". I can really understand why, believe me, but still it get you on the average level.
Nicolo
This is my second favourite build. Really. Really sorry to underrate it. Originality: 4. Ok, can you explain it again? Not I didn't catch it and hexblade was expected, but still... Hey, you even managed to use Black Dog, which I really had missed. Moreover, poison use as core center? Uhm... Power: 3. Nicolo is not to be underestimated, but he's basically a one trick pony and some taste added. I like the taste, even if it is poison, but I can't overrate it. Elegance: 3.5. Very well put together, but the lack of final stats is a minus for me. Despite this, your backstory is the epitome of "few good words", as I was saying before the entries. Use of secret ingredient: 3. Great effort to keep it relevant, great thematic use, but sorry, it still is GSA and I feel you used slightly worst than Starryeyes and Mordenstein.
As a final word, congratulations to everybody. My ratings are low in Use of secret ingredient, and I think no other judge had rated too high either. I figured out that the only way to use GSA's ability is to abuse them (artificer+many, many grafts, first idea; or shuffle to half ogre, put in war hulk). It would have been rated quite poor in elegance, so you did it good.
For what it's worth Ingus, your judging put a smile on my face. My build didn't get your highest rating, but you noticed something that I liked in my build that the other judges didn't really notice
So, was judging less work than being a contestant?
One of the things I've noticed about 1/2 casting classes... if used to advance a 10/10 casting class (assassin, suel archanamach, etc...), you don't end up loosing any caster levels, if you are careful. This lets you leverage the 1/2 casting prestige class abilities without sacrificing too much in the way of magical might.
Yeah, I caught onto that while writing the Suel Arcanamach handbook. Really makes 1/2 casting classes shine.
I'm surprised no-one mentioned dust of sneezing and choking. It is an item, but a GSA can use it without penalty.
Dust of Sneezing and Coughing is so often referenced as banned that I always figure it exists in that nebulous null-space where Highlander 2 allegedly resides.
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Star Metallurgist of the Roy Fanclub
Who made my awesome Dwarf Hexblade avatar, you ask? BRC did!
I know that, as a Judge, if I saw any build relying on Dust of Sneezing and Choking as a primary method of attack, they would find my critique... sharp and dry.
First off, it's expensive. 2,400 gp per use. That's more than a Forcecage.
Second off, there's lots of things immune to it. Undead and Constructs spring promptly to mind, but also Oozes, Elementals, and a whole host of other things, including anyone with a Necklace of Adaptation.
Third off, it's right up there with Candle Gate Chains as far as Known Cheese
I doubt anyone could end up with higher than a 1 on Elegance, and it wouldn't significantly increase the Power score either.
Magic dust is a lot cheaper than decent posion. It is also a lot cheaper than a decent magical item. It counts as a consumable item, so it would fall into the consumable portion of WBL. Considering that it can trivialise some high level encounters it is worth the cost.
I mean, If you're going to spam Stinking Cloud, Solid Fog and various other status effects centred on yourself, splashing out on some Dust on occasion is neither cheesey nor frivolous.
Well 'poison' is a pretty broad spectrum. Far more so than 'magic dust'.
Indeed. My rogue's 'poison' inventory includes everything from asahi to johnny walker, while his 'magic dust' inventory has been confiscated by the FBI.
Edit: And dear God, what happened to my portrait?! It's a close-up now! Did DLing IE 8 somehow screw with my Firefox settings?!
For what it's worth Ingus, your judging put a smile on my face. My build didn't get your highest rating, but you noticed something that I liked in my build that the other judges didn't really notice
Glad to know, but now you're revealing yourself. Shame on you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akal Saris
So, was judging less work than being a contestant?
Definitely not. Different thing, though. As a contestant, you have the thrilling: "Would it work? Would they like it?" ... and the concentration too: "Damn'it there should be something somewhere that allow me to..."
As a judge, you trade it all in exchange for the surprise, the xmas-eve-like wait and for the bittersweet duty of rating. As I said in advance, I really hoped that my favourites wouldn't screw it up and sadly a couple of these did.
So no: judging is really worthwhile. I'll do it whenever I can't figure it out a good idea for the challenge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WinWin
I'm surprised no-one mentioned dust of sneezing and choking. It is an item, but a GSA can use it without penalty.
It is a death move in most of the situations. As item, it is banned by default in any game, except for the straight curse use. It is "funny" (to a sadistic DM, at least) if someone uses it thinking it is a useful tool. It is not if you use it to bring down a Great Wyrm who would be way over your reach (I guess that with 5d4 rounds of uncontested combat, you can do it).
By the way, Akal, I'll leave your avatar this way. It seemed done by purpose.
It is a death move in most of the situations. As item, it is banned by default in any game, except for the straight curse use. It is "funny" (to a sadistic DM, at least) if someone uses it thinking it is a useful tool. It is not if you use it to bring down a Great Wyrm who would be way over your reach (I guess that with 5d4 rounds of uncontested combat, you can do it).
As a contestant, you have the thrilling: "Would it work? Would they like it?" ... and the concentration too: "Damn'it there should be something somewhere that allow me to..."
That's half the reason I started all my homebrew. Despite so many options by so many books... I still would come up with character concepts that had absolutely no equivalent and would sadden me.
Quote:
I ban nothing. I guess I'm a sadistic DM lol
I already know I am. I'd allow it in a heartbeat. So many ways to get around stuff like that though.
That's why I like playing under sadistic DM's as well. Don't feel bad for them when I come up with something that totally throws him for a loop but is perfectly legit.
__________________ "What kind of men are these against whom you have brought us to fight? Men who do not compete for money, but for honor" -- Herodotus, VIII, 26
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VII
