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I can't find my BoVD at the moment, but it sticks in my mind a Disciple of Mephastopheles gets an ability to bypass fire immunity. Although maybe that's only with their class-granted hellfire abilities.
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Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
Proud member of the "I Love Anyway" Club
Thank you, Diabhan, for the avatar. :)
Me: Having defeated the evil necromancer queen with your homosexuality, you gain 750 experience. Now kindly die in a hole.
-- Fiendish_Dire_Moose
I can't find my BoVD at the moment, but it sticks in my mind a Disciple of Mephastopheles gets an ability to bypass fire immunity. Although maybe that's only with their class-granted hellfire abilities.
Correct. As written, it's only with their Hellfire and Hellfire Storm abilities.
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Star Metallurgist of the Roy Fanclub
Who made my awesome Dwarf Hexblade avatar, you ask? BRC did!
Only it's not immunity penetration, it's changing the elemental flavor. Which is not the same thing at all. It would likely score you 0 from the judges in both Elegance AND Use of Secret Ingredient, so I don't see as how anyone in the contest would be interested in it.
Sometimes, you just want to light a fireproof cigar. Not freeze it, or shock it, or smash it. And even if you would settle for it, you are generally wanting to do it more than three times per encounter.
Sorry, but your suggestion is about as sound as offering a suggestion for someone to take 11 levels in Monk when they ask for some way to increase their damage output... citing the higher unarmed damage and flurry numbers as reasons.
I believe we are both rather angry. Peace?
(On a related note, I don't think giving Fire Immune creatures vulnerability overwrites their immunity. See here)
The link did not clarify anything. You may agree with some of the statements made, but there was no consensus. I personally think that it would temporarily make the creature succeptable, providing the spell bybassed SR and saving throws. Considering that there are alternative higher level spells that are permenant, that is not an abusive interpretation. I am not saying that my interpretation is the correct one, the other points made are equally valid.
Bestowing a (Subtype) such as (fire), (cold) or (fiendish) is relatively easy. Mid-high level, but permenant spells. Even a few items have this effect. It is difficult to find a practical, offensive version of these spells though. It has no bearing on the outcome of this competition, but it is related to the theme of this competition. Finding a method by which a Fire weilding hero can burn even those immune to flames.
I believe 5/7 people agreed it did nothing (71%). The ones disagreeing were the OP, and a poster noting that "evokers need all the help they can get!". I got the feeling it was fairly close to a consensus.
Additionally, it's rather impractical because of the saving throw and Spell Resistance, as you mentioned. DC 14 from a scroll/wand/spell storing weapon? Not happening at the levels where immunity is common. The 3 round duration isn't great either.
I couldn't get my build done in time because the time I got to work on it, I spent trying to find a way to circumvent fire immunity. ^^
Sadly, everything I found was limited to specific class features (like hellfire warlock and disciple of mephistopheles) or to spells (like sanctified one of kord).
Last edited by true_shinken : 07-25-2010 at 09:51 AM.
I'm working on my judging right nowish. Got a BBQ and a gym apointment, but I'll have time to work on it tonight. Tomorrow I'm helping a friend move after work, so if I don't finish tonight, I'll get to it Tuesday evening at the absolute latest. Good entries though, like em a lot!
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A beholder’s favorite foods include small live mammals, exotic mushrooms and other fungi, gnomes, beef, pork, colorful leafy vegetables, leaves, flower petals, insects, and birds.
My judging is done, but I want to give a little time to let it rest and for me to think about it. (I did it over the course of 2 days, so want to go back over it all at once later to make sure I was consistent.) I should have it up tomorrow.
__________________
Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
Proud member of the "I Love Anyway" Club
Thank you, Diabhan, for the avatar. :)
Me: Having defeated the evil necromancer queen with your homosexuality, you gain 750 experience. Now kindly die in a hole.
-- Fiendish_Dire_Moose
Yeah, gentlefolk, sorry for the delay in my scores as well. I may not even be able to judge this one, life's been hammering me something fierce the last few days, and finding the time to judge this is... yeah. Probably not gonna happen.
I think I will bow out of the judgments. My sincerest apologies, but I've got too much striving for my time, and I can't dedicate to this.
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Lovely Thaxos, Elder Serpent avatar by... someone! I've forgotten in the years, sorry! Please, let me know so I can credit you!
My judging is done, but I want to give a little time to let it rest and for me to think about it. (I did it over the course of 2 days, so want to go back over it all at once later to make sure I was consistent.) I should have it up tomorrow.
This makes me happy and sad all at once.
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Star Metallurgist of the Roy Fanclub
Who made my awesome Dwarf Hexblade avatar, you ask? BRC did!
Yeah, gentlefolk, sorry for the delay in my scores as well. I may not even be able to judge this one, life's been hammering me something fierce the last few days, and finding the time to judge this is... yeah. Probably not gonna happen.
I think I will bow out of the judgments. My sincerest apologies, but I've got too much striving for my time, and I can't dedicate to this.
This is unfortunate, but life > a char-op competition. I'll see if Wings of Peace is interested in taking the open chair.
With all the hard thinking these require can I presume they are difficult to judge?
Actually, yes. There were a lot of entries and a lot of approaches to the Secret Ingredient. Also, though I can't speak for the rest of the judges, there were a few entries that I liked as a reader, but when I looked at them as a judge, there were issues I could not overlook. That make it harder for me to judge.
__________________
Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
Proud member of the "I Love Anyway" Club
Thank you, Diabhan, for the avatar. :)
Me: Having defeated the evil necromancer queen with your homosexuality, you gain 750 experience. Now kindly die in a hole.
-- Fiendish_Dire_Moose
I decided to just go over the scoring tonight rather than wait for the morning. So without further ado...
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My scoring starts with a base of 2.5 and moves up or down from there. With respect to Use of Secret Ingredient, all entries used all 10 levels, so there was no need to mark anyone down for that. I also did not mark down for entries that felt like Pryo was tacked on because it was required, rather than being integral to the build. Instead, I gave bonus points to builds that I felt integrated the PrC with the rest.
The Forgotten
Spoiler
Originality: 3.0. The mix of Pyro and Cryo was an unexpected twist. Power: 2.5. Nothing in this build screams "I can do it all," but it also doesn't scream "I can't do anything." Elegance: 1.5. Your Paladin levels seem to be splashes without contributing anything significant. Although the build, as a build, makes sense, I just do not see how the mix of fire and ice come into play as part of the backstory. Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.0. The use of Cryokineticist kind of makes the secret ingredient redundant. Overall Score: 9 / 2.25
Varholm Grimhide
Spoiler
Originality: 3.0. I like how you used a psionic PrC rather than base class to meet the power point requirement. Power: 2.5. ToB helps any melee class, but it does have the weaknesses you pointed out in the overview. Elegance: 2.0. I hate marking you down since, as a reader, I liked your build. But the flaws were a negative. Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.5. It seems Pyro was tacked on, rather than being an integral part of the build. Overall Score: 10 / 2.5
Tummo of the Three Candles
Spoiler
Originality: 4.0. Half-fiend, Bard, and Soulknife. OK, I'm sold. Power: 4.0. The spell-like and psi-like from the half-fiend template add a lot to this build's power. Elegance: 3.5. You did it with 4 classes (counting the template as a class) and everything works together and builds on itself. Also, the fact you got just about everything based off CHA. Use of Secret Ingredient: 3.5. Pyro fits with the rest of the build and does not seem to be stuck on for the contest. Overall Score: 15 / 3.75
Spiffy (love the name, BTW)
Spoiler
Originality: 2.5. Wilder and Rogue, nothing terribly unique there. Power: 2.5. It's a damage dealer, and nothing else. Elegance: 2.0. The backstory explained why Spiffy gains the tentacle, eyes, and Pyro, but without the story, they all come across as tacked on. Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.5. As above, it seems Pyro was tacked on because it had to be, rather than being an integral part of the build. Overall Score: 9.5 / 2.375
Balko the Farmer
Spoiler
Originality: 3.0. Use of Ardent was not expected. Power: 2.0. This build strikes me as a one-trick pony - attack from shadows for damage. Against enemies vulnerable to that, it works. But as your ending shows, it fails against high level casters. Elegance: 1.5. You rely on debatable entry into your final class, and admit one of your attacks is only useful if the character gains more INT. Use of Secret Ingredient: 3.0. In what is becoming a common issue, it seems Pyro was tacked on because it had to be, rather than being an integral part of the build. Bonus points for actually using the special requirement "Must have set fire to a structure of any size just to watch it burn." Overall Score: 9.5 / 2.375
MiLaash
Spoiler
Originality: 4.5. As you said, you managed to take a psionic PrC without any classes that grant PP. Power: 2.5. Another one-trick pony - attack. Bonus points for finding ways to debuff saves so your one-trick has a decent chance of working. Elegance: 1.5. While I like the originality of qualifying for the class without dedicated PP, doing so relies strongly on your DM letting you pull that trick. Your 3 levels of Half-Fey seem tacked on for the bonuses and extra abilities. Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.5. Again, it feels like Pyro was tacked on. Pyro stacks well with Hexblade, but Binder seems an off addition. Overall Score: 11 / 2.75
Taliesin Pyrain
Spoiler
Originality: 4.5. Again, you managed to take a psionic PrC without any psionic classes. Power: 3.5. Another 1 trick pony, but with even more ways to stack debuffs so that the trick can actually work. Bonus points for having so much based off CHA. Elegance: 4.0. CHA-based class after CHA-based class after CHA-based class, and the BG is a logical continuation of Hexblade. Use of Secret Ingredient: 3.5. I debated this one for a while since at first glance, Pyro seems tacked on. But rereading it and thinking about it, the CHA-based abilities of Pyro fit well with the CHA-based abilities of Hexblade and BG, and they fit together to make a melee combatant who can do more than just swing his pointy stick. Bonus points for actually using the special requirement "Must have set fire to a structure of any size just to watch it burn." Overall Score: 14.5 / 3.625
Mirage
Spoiler
Originality: 4.5. Another person taking a psionic PrC without a psionic class. Power: 2.5. Fire, fire, and more fire. Great if enemies are not immune to fire, poor if they have fire resist. Elegance: 2.0. I like how everything builds off of fire, but it seems SORC and Arcane Heirophant were stuck on as afterthoughts to fill the last few levels. Use of Secret Ingredient: 3.5. This entire build is based on fire, and Pyro fits right into that mix. Overall Score: 12.5 / 3.125
D. Merwin Elbert
Spoiler
Originality: 4.5. Again, entrance without the use of a psionic class. Power: 4.0. A nice mix of damage and battlefield control, as well as option for enemies that resist / are immune to fire. Elegance: 3.5. The classes fit together well. Use of Secret Ingredient: 3.0. I think I see where you were going with this build, but Pyro again just seems stuck on. Bonus points for actually using the special requirement "Must have set fire to a structure of any size just to watch it burn." Overall Score: 15 / 3.75
__________________
Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
Proud member of the "I Love Anyway" Club
Thank you, Diabhan, for the avatar. :)
Me: Having defeated the evil necromancer queen with your homosexuality, you gain 750 experience. Now kindly die in a hole.
-- Fiendish_Dire_Moose
Also, if we're rating from 1 to 5 (rather than 0 to 5) wouldn't the correct average score be 3?
I don't think it matters, so long as each judge is consistent in their own scoring system. All the scores are combine in the end, so if I went back and added .5 to all my scores, it wouldn't change the final outcome.
__________________
Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
Proud member of the "I Love Anyway" Club
Thank you, Diabhan, for the avatar. :)
Me: Having defeated the evil necromancer queen with your homosexuality, you gain 750 experience. Now kindly die in a hole.
-- Fiendish_Dire_Moose
I got 3.5 contestants judged today. I'm saving them all in a word file, and will reveal when I'm done. Just thought I'd give you guys a teaser to salavate over in a truely Pavlovian way.
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A beholder’s favorite foods include small live mammals, exotic mushrooms and other fungi, gnomes, beef, pork, colorful leafy vegetables, leaves, flower petals, insects, and birds.
Originality: 3.5
The use of Jade Phoenix Mage was pleasant and surprising, and the coupling of it with Swordsage is thematically pleasing.
The use of the character himself, however, isn't especially original. Conceptually, it fits perfectly and I'm not bothered by his use, but it's, you know, literally not original.
Power: 2
Swordsage and Warmage offer a decent amount of versatility at early levels, and you eventually get a decent power boost from Jade Phoenix Mage. However, Warmage isn't an especially powerful casting base for JPM, and it seems to me that you progressively decline in relative power as levels increase. Your levels in Pyrokineticist, while required for the contest, severely limit your spellcasting potential and your initiator capabilities, and you never quite hit 16 BAB naturally. You have a nice amount of bonus damage, though, and Flame Lash does provide helpful touch attacks, regardless of your non-proficiency.
Elegance: 4
The character fits the concept quite well, and I like the build's presentation, as a whole. The character functions well without any odd interpretation of the source material.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 4
Pyrokineticist is an excellent fit to the character, it comprises a good deal of his offensive talent, and you took the class to completion. Pyrokineticist probably isn't the most optimal class for the character himself, but conceptually it works quite well.
Total: 13.5//3.375
Mirage
Spoiler
Originality: 4
Druid was among the last base classes I expected to see here, and Killoren is a unique race that is often neglected.
Power: 2
Your multiple sources of low level spellcasting and initiator abilities offer a great degree of versatility, but your levels in pyrokineticist forsake much of the casting power you could have accessed. Your wildshaping capabilities are also crippled. The character is certainly playable, but like you said, it's solidly tier 4.
Elegance: 2.5
You used a lot of alternate class features, which, save for one, I'm mostly fine with. However, the Arcane Swordsage variant is really vaguely suggested and relies on a lot of DM interpretation to implement well, in my opinion. A lot of the multiclassing doesn't make a great deal of sense to me, that of the sorcerer levels, especially.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 3
Pyrokineticist detracts more than it adds in this case more than most others, but I'm glad that you've at least gone to lengths to make sure it fits the character, thematically.
Total: 11.5//2.875
Taliesin Pyrain
Spoiler
Originality: 3.5
While stacking fear effects is one of the handful of melee go-to archetypes, the use of Heat Death and the debuff suite combine to make a rather unique concept. A CE Lesser Aasimar who is sworn to Pandorym was fairly unexpected, as well.
Power: 4
The battlefield control granted by Imperious Command and synergistic fear effects at low levels makes this build quite devastating for a time, and the utility granted by the debuffs coupled with Heat Death creates a character that is quite versatile in combat at most, if not all, levels.
Elegance: 3.5
The build hits several power breakpoints, but almost always remains relevant, and it progresses in a straightforward manner. You use an Elder Evil for bonus feats, but it fits thematically. I'm inclined to like the character, as a whole.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 4
You reach the classes capstone, you make use your class abilities, and your other classes synergize with the abilities you get out of Pyrokineticist fairly well.
Total: 15//3.75
MiLaash
Spoiler
Originality: 4
Binder is a nice touch, and you seem to be the only contestant that thought of it. Your binding is rather relevant at several stages of game play, and it gives you a lot of versatility, in and out of combat. Half-Fey was also quite surprising, as far as that goes.
Power: 4
You've achieved a rather heinous DC on Heat Death, not to mention your SLAs, many of which are quite useful. You've also got a source of non-magical flight and several versatile out-of-combat options. As a back-up, you can deliver Power Attacks via touch attacks, which isn't terrible at all.
Elegance: 3
The Azure Talent trick is cute, but iffy; I would honestly consider docking you for it, but since the build isn't reliant upon the trick at all, it's acceptable.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 3
You didn't take the class to completion; in fact, you're the only entry that didn't do so. It's not a very big deal, since the capstone is more than a bit underwhelming. Your class and feat choices synergize well with what you use Pyrokineticist for, at least, and there is a nice bit of charisma-synergy.
Total: 14//3.5
Balko
Spoiler
Originality: 3.5
Shadowlord, eh? I like Ardent quite a bit, but Shadowlord is uncommon enough to deserve a boost here. It's also really, really, good.
Power: 3.5
Teflammar Shadowlord is pretty great, since Shadow Pounce lets you get three full attacks per round. You don't have a large source of bonus damage to exploit that many attacks with, though, aside from Greater Weapon Afire. Craven would be nice, and I think that you probably should have taken one less level of TSL; if you moved your feats around, you could have taken Practised Manifester: Ardent at some point and taking Ardent 6 at level 20ish would give you up to 5th level powers and another point of BAB. I think it would offer a bit more to the build than Hand of Death, personally.
Elegance: 3
On one hand, you went into Pyrokineticist via a psionic class, and you took the PrC to completion. On the other hand, you resorted to using magic items to meet feat requirements, and, while I agree that it's fair, you used a somewhat shady entry to Shadowlord, all things considered. So, I don't really think that you net any points (or penalties) here.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.5
I really don't feel like Pyrokineticist does very much for the character, and that the character levels would be better suited elsewhere. Honestly, the character would likely have been better off taking Ardent levels instead.
Total: 12.5//3.125
Spiffy
Spoiler
Originality: 3
A chaotic evil gnome pyrokineticist is both endearing and the slightest bit cliché. The illithid interactions, however, are quite nice.
Power: 3
You have a good deal of damage dealing potential, however your bonus damage is (regrettably) made up of what are two of the most often avoided types of damage; fire and precision damage. If one or the other is neutered, it really cripples your damage. Wands of gravestrike and the like can help your sneak attack, but the fire damage is much more of a liability. Darkstalker is good, though.
Elegance: 3.5
You take the class to completion, and your base and prestige class progression are all rather straight-forward. There's nothing notably bad to say, here.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 3
I don't really feel like you get a lot out of most of the Pyrokineticist levels. You make excellent use of the bonus damage, but you continue taking the PrC after you max that, and you could probably do much more with those levels.
Total: 12.5//3.125
Tummo
Spoiler
Originality: 5
A Synod Half-Cerebrillith is, well... nothing that I had ever expected to encounter. Additionally, you used Bard and Soulknife, of all things, for your pyrokineticist. Exploiting Cha-Synergy was expected going into this competition, but you did it in what is perhaps the most unique way presented.
Power: 2.5
Your build has little offensive capability outside of standard attacking and your SLAs, but you never get past a BAB of 10. That seems more than a little troublesome. You make up for it with the (as always) excellent Snowflake Wardance, but you're still limited by your lack of iterative attacks. Additionally, your ability to add Charisma to Damage on full attacks relies on Action Points and a feat you don't get until ECL 20.
Elegance: 2.5
It's nice that you (and most other contestants) took the secret ingredient to its capstone, but the fact that your build relies on action points (which aren't always available) and uses the very roughly described custom Half-Fiend rules requires that I deduct a bit from your score. I really appreciate the manner in which your character is presented, however.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 3
You use Pyrokineticist for the bonus damage (on a large number of weapons, to be fair) and slight charisma synergy. That's perfectly acceptable, but I don't feel like you did anything especially clever with the class to warrant extra points here.
Total: 13//3.25
Varholm Grimhide
Spoiler
Originality: 3.5
Using Shifter to qualify for Warshaper, and using Kensai in the same build as Pyrokineticist, is pleasingly original.
Power: 3.5
You accrue a decent chunk of damage in an amusing manner from a decent range. You're also helpfully less reliant on traditional weaponry. Your out of direct combat utility is lacking, however.
Elegance: 1.5
The build takes two flaws and relies on a rather awkard reading of the Ordered Chaos feat. I'm not sure that the flaws were really that necessary, as (like you point out) you later take two rather superfluous feats (Vestigial Wings and Beasthide Elite). Additionally, you have to syphon off XP for Kensai, which is a bit awkward in and of itself.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 3
You don't do anything special with the secret ingredient itself, since you're mostly just pumping your own unarmed damage. That's fine, but it doesn't really give you much here.
Total: 12//3
The Forgotten
Spoiler
Originality: 4
The concept of these many conflicting ideals being used in harmony by one character is rather nice. It's not a concept we usually see in D&D, though I'm slightly more familiar with it in other media. The racial choice was fairly uncommon as well, and it fits the character.
Power: 3.5
You don't have a great deal of tricks, but you're quite decent at what you do. The lack of a third iterative attack is a bit of a bummer, though.
Elegance: 2
Ordered Chaos can be interpreted in several ways; more than one of which I'm sure would disassemble your build. Additionally, the use of Wilder and Paladin seem semi-random, to be honest. A clear explanation of the build as a whole might remedy this.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.5
Combining Pyrokineticist with Cryokineticist makes for an interesting character, yes, but it's kind of the antithesis of building around pyrokineticist.
Total: 12//3
I really hope I didn't miss anyone. That would be more than a bit awkward.
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