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If your Psicrystal had Instant Clarity and knew martial strikes, could it gain back its Focus to allow you to keep spamming Heat Death every round? Or simply use Psychic Meditation to recover its Focus for you to expend?
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If your Psicrystal had Instant Clarity and knew martial strikes, could it gain back its Focus to allow you to keep spamming Heat Death every round? Or simply use Psychic Meditation to recover its Focus for you to expend?
I don't think so. There are powers and feats that allow a Psycrystal to hold a focus for it's master, but if it has it's own focus, it would not be transferable.
You would need cost reducing psy-gear/class features. Swift action powers that allowed for an extra move action/mental actions. That would allow for an extended Heat Death spam.
It would be possible to do with only a few manifester levels, but it would require racial manifestation (for the ML required), a power point reserve and exploitation/utilization of Psychic Chirurgery in order to gain the desired powers; Schism and/or Hustle. Even then, you would have to own sufficient power crystals in order to maintain your power point reserve and manifest the extra actions. Certainly possible by the time you are capable of using Heat Death, though accessing a 17th level Telepath for the Chirurgery is DM dependant (assuming psionic services cost the same as spellcasting services in the PHB).
Your Hexblade/Crusader idea is feasable, I think, but you are looking at a LA for races like Githyanki or Githzerai (2 races I know of with a scaling racial ML). LA buyoff would put the character behind the rest of a party in a campaign. By the time they could use Heat Death, aound 14th/15th level, they would have caught up with the rest of the party and only be slight behind in experience.
If your Psicrystal had Instant Clarity and knew martial strikes, could it gain back its Focus to allow you to keep spamming Heat Death every round? Or simply use Psychic Meditation to recover its Focus for you to expend?
Sure. You'd probably get more mileage out of Psychic Meditation. You'll have to put nearly all of its Attribute bonuses to wisdom though, so you might want both. Also, you can take PM yourself and manifest Hustle to get focused as a swift action.
RE Ordered Chaos: It does not work like that. Alignment is not an effect or a spell. It is an attribute. Effects trigger off that attribute, but the feat does not change the attribute. It changes how spells and effects interact with alignment. Not how alignment interacts with prerequisites. The only prerequisites the feat description mentions, are those pertaining to Abyssal Heritor. I doubt that me bringing the matter up again is going to change anyone's opinion on the subject though.
That message was sent to Prinny 6 days ago when the discussion was first started. Was tempted to send another message after the conversation had died down telling him not to bother, but after 4 days, decided he wasn't going to bother as by then the judges initial impressions would be fixed on their views, rather than still thinking over different readings.
And with only one judge being left, don't care overly much if identity changes their opinion
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Spoiler
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RE Ordered Chaos: It does not work like that. Alignment is not an effect or a spell. It is an attribute. Effects trigger off that attribute, but the feat does not change the attribute. It changes how spells and effects interact with alignment. Not how alignment interacts with prerequisites. The only prerequisites the feat description mentions, are those pertaining to Abyssal Heritor. I doubt that me bringing the matter up again is going to change anyone's opinion on the subject though.
That argument is reasonably supported by the rules given for Abyssal Heritor feats, but the counterargument is also well supported by the way Ordered Chaos is presented.
The Abyssal Heritor feats are given as an example. If it were an effect of the feat relative specifically to those feats, it would be an "in addition" rather than a "for example."
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A street riot in a major city that was getting violent.
It feels like tomorrow morning. I blame waking up at 6 to work normally. Silly days off. I can't sleep in properly anymore.
Well, it's 10:30 AM here. ^^
I'm working on it.
OK, now for my judging.
For added suspense, I'll add'em one at a time ^^
The Forgotten
Spoiler
Originality: 4. I bet no one saw a Cryokineticist coming. Very nice. Power: 3. A melee build focusing on damage. I really wanted to give you more here, but you didn't give us power choices or equipment selection. Those are really important. As you presented it, all the build does is deal damage - but you could do a lot more. Elegance: 2. I'm afraid I have to penalize you here. I love the dual nature of the character on all axis, but Ordered Chaos does not work that way. Also, you can't gain a level in Paladin after all those Pyro/Cryo levels, can you? Use of Secret Ingredient: 3. I think your build actually works a lot better around pyro than your submission makes we think. You have a high Charisa focus, boosted with Nimbus and you could even make this more relevant by using items. I wanted to give you more here, but it would be unfair to other contestants. Sorry.
Varholm Grimhide
Spoiler
Originality: 3. Really standard stuff all-around, mostly because it works, so I won't penalize you here. Power: 3.5. You took the time to explain your tricks very carefully and they work. Elegance: 1.5. Like I said before, I don't agree with that extreme reading of Ordered Chaos. I wanted to give you 2.5, but Iron Chef rule is that flaws are -1 to Elegance. Also, you mentioned 'throwing fists'... and that sounds like extreme cheese to me, even if it is not extremely powerful, so I won't penalize you for it. Use of Secret Ingredient: 3. Pyro adds damage output and ranged capabilities to the build, but most class features are not used.
Tummo of Three Candles
Spoiler
Originality: 2.5. Soulknife/Pyro is the bread and butter of Soulknife builds. Half-fiend was unexpected, but I knew a Bard would come up eventually. So this neither goes up or down. Power: 4. Well, Charisma synergy. This alone says it all. I love Snowflake Wardance and never hat the thought of using that armor. Very good. I actually think half-fiend hurt you here. Elegance: 3. OK, Wizard site material was allowed. But you didn't use any of the ready-made customized half-fiends, you designed your own... and it just so seems to help the build a lot. I lik how it meshes with your flavor, but... I don't know. Also, I wrote a long epic about your character. It was very nice and I quite enjoyed it, but it was really long. There was some debate about this the last time, so I'm adressing it - this is the Iron Chef Optimization challenge, not the Iron Chef Poem-Writing Challenge. All in all, the way fluff/crunch mix ended up in your favor. Use of Secret Ingredient: 3. You could have scored higher here had you explained better how you wanted to use pyro's abilities.
Spiffy
Spoiler
Originality: 2. Oh, please, not the psychotic gnome think again... TWF + sneak attack is pretty common as well, but since it synergizes with pyro so well, I won't penalize it. Power: 3.5. Well, the thing is, your damage comes from the two ugly ducks in D&D damage dealing: precision damage and fire. Both are commonly resisted. Many many times you'd find targets immune to fire, but then you could sneak attack or targets immune to sneak attack, then you could use fire... but your damage would be halved then. You are very versatile, like any assassin, though, so it kind of evens out. Elegance: 2.5. I'm guessing this will be a big 'uh?!'. Your build is simple and direct, but one thing really bothered me. You intentionally gave him higher Cha to justify Heat Death over Death Attack, but higher Int would benefit the build a lot more, since you get more skill points and assassin spells. Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.5. I'm sorry, but I had to penalize you here. The build is crying for more assassin and after you get greater weapon afire pyro does not add so much. Maybe Pyro 9 for heat death, but I really don't see how that last level of pyro is better than more Assassin.
Balko the Farmer
Spoiler
Originality: 3.5. I like the idea of an ardent suddenly discovering his powers X-men like. Power: 5. Maybe I am over-evaluating this, but I'll run with it. Your power choices are very good and specially at low-levels they give Balko a lot of choices and at higher levels he stays realiable damage-wise like all pyros. Then Shadowlord kicks in. That adds major gushers (and in this case, burns). Elegance: 2. The build does seem to flow beautifully... but as it so coomon with Shadowlord qualification, you do it less than elegantly. In fact, you do it illegally. Dimension hop is not shadow jump, period. You need dimension door for shadow lord. Use of Secret Ingredient: 3. Nothing special here. You just use the tricks you get, though you could possible have gained better tricks. Sixth level of Shadowlord would be better than the tenth level of pyro.
MiLaash
Spoiler
Originality: 4. I'm baffled. Half-fey Binder/Hexblade? What a twist! Power: 4.5. Very, very powerful and versatile. You just didn't get a 5 because you didn't explore your Charisma to the fullest. Hexbands are so cheap and Hexblade-only - can't believe you missed it! Elegance: 2.5. You pulled a few tricks. You pulled them beautifully. Masterfully. The only thing that bothers me is lesser aasimar. Using lesser races is a DM's call as it is stated pretty straightforwardly in Player's Guide to faerun. Also, I didn't penalyze you for that, but a half-fey without Magic in the Blood is a crime. They way you presented your LA also confused me; why at those levels? Use of Secret Ingredient: 3.5. Even without using two-weapon fighting, you managed to use all of pyro's abilities, if not to great effect to all of them - though you make good use of nimbus and heat death.
Taliesin
Spoiler
Originality: 3.5. Well, maybe I should have been expecting more aasimar hexblades. Hexblade into Blackguard is pretty standard. You just got a 3.5 here because I already gave MiLaash a 4, here. Power: 4.5. Again, this is similar to MiLaash. You lack the items for TWF, though, reducing your damage output... but you stack save penalties higher. So it even outs. Elegance: 2.5. I'll have you know I dislike Elder Evils abuse, so you lost a few points here. I dislike how you frequently say it's easy to use Heat Death, also - it is not. Many brutes at higher CRs have Fortitude saves in the 30s. It's a good strategy all right - but it's not easy. Other than that, the build flows well. Use of Secret Ingredient: 3. Most people just used weapons afire and mentioned fire bolt as a backup weapon. You just used heat death and mentiond nimbus as a backup weapon, basically. Not bad, but still not awesome.
Mirage
Spoiler
Originality: 5. I'm actually surprised at not seeing more killoren, but druid was totally unexpected. Arcane swordsage? Never thought anyone would have the guts to go for it on Iron Chef. Power: 3. Can't believe this, really. More Druid/Arcane Swordsage could have gone a lot better, but you insisted on Arcane Hierophant (why I don't know). Elegance: 1. You can't get any worst in the 'known cheese' area than with arcane swordsage. The sorcerer dip is kind of a 'wtf?' moment as well. Use of Secret Ingredient: 1.5. Really, you managed to screw a druid and an arcane swordsage, two of the most broken things in the game... by going Pyro.
D. Merwin Elbert
Spoiler
Originality: 4. A Warmage? Now that is unexpected. I rarely see Jade Phoenix Mage around here and I used to see it all the time at 339. Ah, the memories. Power: 2.5. Well, Warmage. If you used Sorcerer and less Pyro, good spell selection could have managed you a 5. Elegance: 5. It's very simple, and often simplicity is elegant. I reckon this is the case. Use of Secret Ingredient: 3. You basically don't need fire bolt because you are a warmage. In fact, it's hard to find something that pyro does that you can't already do with some other part of the build. Pyro still adds a bit oomph to it... but less Pyro would actually benefit you here.
Done. Now for the results, guys!
Last edited by true_shinken : 07-31-2010 at 11:07 AM.
I knew Mirage was a bad build, but I submitted it anyway. It was the only idea I had with any description or detail. Probably should have just put in my original blighter idea, but it was pretty cheesy, even by my standards.
I knew Mirage was a bad build, but I submitted it anyway. It was the only idea I had with any description or detail. Probably should have just put in my original blighter idea, but it was pretty cheesy, even by my standards.
I wouldn't say it was a bad build. If you had focused on the cheesy part of druid + unarmed swordsage + pyro, you could be a lot higher, I guess.
The sorcerer/arcane hierophant thing hit you hard.
my rationale for not buffing druid higher was that 9th level abilities as a druid is better than the whole of pyrokineticist. I did not want to overshadow the secret ingredient. I'm surprised that the judges scored as highly as they did to be honest, I did not even put attributes down lol.
I was very impressed with the entries put forward by others. I doubt I would have won even had I more time to complete my build. Merwin was my pick, though Taliesin deserves the win.
Personally I cheered for MiLaash, since it was basically my build, but executed slightly differently. First judge ate waay too much of its power ranking away, and elegance.
Also, Heat Death is still pretty easy to use. Honestly, only monsters that resist it easily are the really high CON/hp creatures like Earth Elementals, the Tarrasque, etc. Conveniently, many of those are vulnerable to fear and other debuffs, and possibly even Imperious Presence lockdown (assuming there's an item based way to boost intimidate for the Tarrasque. 48 HD are hard to beat). Also, probably vulnerable to Sudden Stunning (nom nom, DC 32 and up). Targeting all 3 saves is nice. Solars, Pit Demons, Balors, even Old and Ancient dragons and Titans, are sitting on +18-+26ish fort, which is still fairly vulnerable to DC 30+ with a -8 to -10 penalty to saves. Mind you, binding Focalor still would have been a better choice, and I'm still a bit annoyed about not checking over Improved Binding. Bah, memory isn't good enough.
Also, I can't believe I got second place in Elegance with Elder Evils abuse. Backstory justification seems to stretch pretty far. Sure, no DCFS, and the abilities are mostly extraneous and of questionable usefulness, but still entertaining. (It felt... appropriate to the character, somehow. Synergistic, too, but it only goes so far)
Also, tables in spoilers in quotes don't work very well. Even in 1600*1200, the table gets vertically stretched a LOT.
Hexblade 4/Binder 3/Pyro10/Blackguard 3, replace Ability Focus with Improved Binding. (as you need power attack, etc, as well as fear feats and wild talent). This gets you an EBL of 5, which is enough to bind 3rd level vestiges, such as Focalor.
Suddenly, you must weep and tell stories about the wasted potential of everyone you kill.
Is conflagration really worth it? I feel like I'd rather just get the extra hex/day. And where would you put the binder level to maximize their usefulness?
Well, there are the problems. Personally, I'd take the extra hex over Conflagration, due to action economy, which makes the binder placement simply a late-game choice, since it's mostly tied to Heat Death. That means... you take 4 levels of Hexblade, a level of Binder, then Pyro, round out with Blackguard and remaining hexblade/binder levels.
The reason for this is to get the binder in early, which gives some nice utility for initial levels. Naberius and so forth are nice. Of course, the actual save debuff isn't available for a long time, so bleah. The problem is, with Pyro in the middle, a lot of good debuffs are left until right after you finish. You may think of this as keeping up a continuing stream of nice abilities, but it seems like a nuisance, really. So Hexblade 4/Binder 1/Pyrokineticist 9/Binder 2/Blackguard 3/Hexblade 1.
Suddenly, 18'th level through 20'th level looks a lot more appealing, but 15'th and 16'th are so-so. Eh. Really, since you lose Ability Focus, you need flaws or DCFS to make this work properly, with the lack of feats. It synergizes with other debuffs well, but in relation to Heat Death? Ehhh.
Not really, because the build tricks are built around Pyro here. If you sub in another class, the field opens a lot, but it also becomes harder to define a role. You need a trick or two, and Taliesin is gifted with a variety of tricks to beat various opponents. He has a decent (but not good) melee presence, fairly good damage, a very strong fearlock capacity, some significant debuffing, which synergizes well with an SoD, Sudden Stunning, and Fear stacking. Dropping Pyro from the mix nerfs his damage and removes his SoD, and finding another charisma based ability that's similar isn't that easy.
Instead, you need to pick a new trick, and at that point, the build isn't even remotely the same anymore. To say that a new build works "better" requires that you first choose how it is better, and frankly, that's not easy here. Picking up a PrC with a 1/encounter or at will SoD with a good DC (10+class level+cha modifier, none of this 14+cha weakness) would be a start, but those aren't exactly easy to find. Needs Charisma Synergy, which again, isn't always easy to find.
Assuming Arbitrarity's numbers are correct, the final rankings are as follows.
In first place, Arbitrarity's Taliesin Pyrain!
In second place, Draz74's MiLaash!
In 3rd, Amphetryon's D. Merwin Elbert!
In 4th, The Vorpal Tribble's Tummo of the Three Candles!
In 5th, Woot Spitum's Spiffy!
In 6th, Ingus's Balko the Farmer!
In 7th, WinWin's Mirage!
In 8th, Chineselegolas's The Forgotten!
In 9th, IdleMuse's Varholm Grimhide!
Congratulations to all who entered, especially our two winners. Trophies will be posted after the engraving is done.
Suggestions are once again open for the next secret ingredient.
iSLURP! Seriously, somebody send a letter to Apple and tell them that they need to invent a new product. I don't care WHAT it is, as long as its called iSLURP!
I was kinda rooting for MiLaash too, even though I think I scored Taliesin higher. I dunno, I just kinda liked MiLaash.
Sorry for drillin ya, Mr Tribble. I picked out your build immediately (mostly due to the story format/content), but had to score you that way. I hope you understood all of my justification, especially the part about the adjusted ability scores and the subbing out of the SLAs.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge VIII
I can't sleep in properly anymore.
Backstory justification seems to stretch pretty far. Sure, no DCFS, and the abilities are mostly extraneous and of questionable usefulness, but still entertaining. (It felt... appropriate to the character, somehow. Synergistic, too, but it only goes so far)
