Arena Tournament, LA1 Exhibition: Ruth vs. Katta

[ArenaManager]

Arena Tournament, LA1 Exhibition: Ruth vs. Katta

Map:

Spoiler

XP Award: 300 XP
GP Award: 300 GP

Ruth - candycorn
Katta - Sallera

All Combatants, please roll initiative and declare final purchases, if any

[Sallera]

Init: (1d20+5)[8]

No purchases, unless I happen to come across a reactive purchase I can make with less than 2 gold.

[candycorn]

Init: (1d20+3)[19]

I can deal with no purchases. :)

When I finalized my spell list, Invisibility was ok to have. Is this still the case, or was it prohibited for this exhibition?

[Sallera]

Yep, I'm pretty sure we agreed Invisibility was fine, since this is an official exhibition, so we'll have people around to do LoS when we need it. Go ahead and start.

[hustlertwo]

Yeah, Invisibility is generally a no-no in informal exhibitions (no one wants refs dragged in for LoS checks when nothing's at stake), but these rounds will be exceptions to that. They will probably be held largely or completely in glass arenas for speed, but if you have a way to hide, feel free to do so.

[candycorn]

Start in N4. Begin Casting (Spellcraft DC 17 to ID):

Spoiler

Invisibility
CL Check: (1d20+1)[10] vs DC 8[/roll]

Refs Only:

Spoiler

Move to R8

Done.

Stats:

Spoiler

Location: R8 (possibly invisible)
AC: 15 (Touch 13, FF 12)
Effects Active: Possibly Invisible 1/10
Spells Remaining: 4/4/0

[Sallera]

Katta, Round 1

Start in N23, wielding shortbow.
Spellcraft: (1d20+2)[11] (Have you vanished?)
Move to N17.
Standard: Ready action:

Spoiler

Move if Katta hears spellcasting or hears speech she can't understand.

Stats:

Spoiler

HP 9/9, AC24 (16, 19)

Done.

[hustlertwo]

Heh, I think the Spellcraft check is extremely pointless, since Katta sees you disappear from sight in N-4.

[candycorn]

Yes. Sorry, I have vanished.

Refs:

Spoiler

Double move to R14

Done.

Stats:

Spoiler

Location: R14
AC: 15 (Touch 13, FF 12)
Effects Active: Invisible 2/10
Spells Remaining: 4/4/0

[Sallera]

Katta, Round 2

Move to U16.
Standard: Ready action:

Spoiler

Move if Katta hears spellcasting or hears speech she can't understand.

Stats:

Spoiler

HP 9/9, AC24 (16, 19)
Melds shaped: Wormtail Belt

Done.

[candycorn]

Ruth, Round 3

Refs:

Spoiler

Move: to W15.
Standard: Ready Action: Cast Charm person if Katta performs any action.

Done.
You are entitled to a listen check.

Stats:

Spoiler

Location: R14, Readied Action, Invisible
AC: 15 (Touch 13, FF 12)
Effects Active: Invisible 3/10
Spells Remaining: 4/4/0

[Sallera]

Reactive Listen: (1d20+3)[21]

Edit: I'll wait to see what I hear.

[candycorn]

Based on the rules in the Waiting Room, that's an improved success.

Therefore: You hear movement. It begins to the west by northwest, and travels eastward, before ending fairly nearby (within 30 feet), to the east by northeast.

I do believe that's an appropriate amount of information for a listen check that beats by 10, but by less than 20.

[Sallera]

Katta, Round 3

Move to S16.
Standard: Ready action:

Spoiler

Move if Katta hears spellcasting or hears speech she can't understand.

Stats:

Spoiler

HP 9/9, AC24 (16, 19)
Melds shaped: Wormtail Belt

Done.

[candycorn]

Your movement triggers my ready action. As you begin to move out of U16, you hear casting.

Listen Check DC 12, then Spellcraft DC 16 reveals:

Spoiler

Charm Person

Will Save, DC 19, please.

Refs Only:

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DC: 10 (base) +5 (charisma) +1 (Jaebrin racial for enchantment spells) + 2 (spell focus and greater spell focus enchantment) + 1 (Level 1 spell)

[Sallera]

Ah, of course. Don't know how I missed that way.

Will: (1d20+4)[23]

Edit: You're now visible, yes? Where?

[candycorn]

Your sheet shows a -1 penalty to will saves, not a +4 bonus.

Where is the modifier coming from?

[Sallera]

Charm Person (as your only 1st level spell, that naturally must be what you're casting) grants a +5 bonus on the save if you're being 'threatened or attacked' by the caster, which in the Arena is always considered the case (hence why you can't take 10 on skills.)

[candycorn]

That, I think I shall dispute.

In this match, TheFallenOne ruled that "when threatened" did not apply to invisible opponents.

In addition, at the time of the casting, you have not detected an attack from me once.

The text requires more than just being threatened. It requires being threatened or attacked by a specific person. Ruth. And if you cannot detect Ruth, you cannot be threatened by her.

Relevant text:

If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.

I've not levied any threats, nor have I made any attacks.

[Sallera]

Ah, I looked up the post that stated it always applied, and it was not by Kyeudo as I'd thought, but rather another High Ref. Think I'll take this one to the Waiting Room; need sleep anyway, and it would be a good thing to set precedent on.

[candycorn]

Well, one way or the other, it'll be answered.

After the spell resolves (one way or another, because that bonus is the difference between pass and fail), I'll appear in W15.

[TheFallenOne]

Originally Posted by candycorn

In this match, TheFallenOne ruled that "when threatened" did not apply to invisible opponents.

first, it was not about an invisible opponent, but about an opponent your AC wasn't aware at all because of Hide from Animals. Katta was aware of Ruth due to the Listen check

second, in the end we didn't go with my initial ruling

This is indeed a good question. That you're always threatened in the Arena when it comes to skill checks was one of the first things I learned here when I wanted to take 10 once. Just never considered if it just means "You're threatened" or "You're threatened by your opponent". I can't make a call on this now, not knowing who made that "Always threatened" ruling with what wording. Let's see what we get in the Waiting Room

[candycorn]

I would like to point out that Katta was aware of movement. It might be reasonable for her to assume that it is Ruth, but without actual identification of the source of the noise, it can't be a sure thing.

[TheFallenOne]

Let's see a Listen and Spellcraft check from Katta. If he identifies the spell he should feel threatened by the caster. I'll leave making a ruling on the more general question to someone else

[candycorn]

That ruling has some pretty severe implications for Charm person, but it's reasonable, I suppose.

[Sallera]

Alright then.
Listen: (1d20+3)[17]
Spellcraft: (1d20+2)[10]

[TheFallenOne]

well, back to the Waiting Room then. I posted the precedents on the matter I could find there

[hustlertwo]

Yeah, this is why Charm Person is rarely used in Arena (offhand, I can only remember one time it was successfully cast, don't recall the specific round number but it was fairly recent). You're regarded as being threatened as soon as the fight begins, which is why you can't take 10 on rolls, as Fallen said. A side effect of this is that CP's at a severe disadvantage. Although it's something of a tough spell to use in Arena anyhow, since the interpretation of what is and isn't a 'suicidal' action, or something a character would not normally do, is all rather vague.

To the best of my knowledge, it would not matter if the spell is identified. Presumably the invisibility also does not end the threatened state, but I'm less certain of that.

[TheFallenOne]

Originally Posted by hustlertwo

Yeah, this is why Charm Person is rarely used in Arena (offhand, I can only remember one time it was successfully cast, don't recall the specific round number but it was fairly recent). You're regarded as being threatened as soon as the fight begins, which is why you can't take 10 on rolls, as Fallen said. A side effect of this is that CP's at a severe disadvantage. Although it's something of a tough spell to use in Arena anyhow, since the interpretation of what is and isn't a 'suicidal' action, or something a character would not normally do, is all rather vague.

To the best of my knowledge, it would not matter if the spell is identified. Presumably the invisibility also does not end the threatened state, but I'm less certain of that.

can you track down where the "Always threatened" is coming from? Take a look at the Waiting Room, there are contradicting past statements of High Refs in regards to charm person

[hustlertwo]

Always threatened probably predates me, but here's what I believe is the most recent successful Charm Person, if anyone wants to glean what they can from it. The caster acknowledges the threatened save bonus, but in this case the issue didn't have to be pressed, since it still would not have led to success anyhow. The mechanics of being charmed are also explored a bit, but the DQ of the charmed person ultimately cuts the debate short.

Ultimately, I suppose it does come down to the ruling about "always threatened". If that is a true Arena precedent, as we've always assumed, then I'm not sure how the +5 bonus would not be applied. If it isn't, well, for one thing, CP becomes more viable. For another, people are going to be taking 10 all over the place.