The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

[The Tygre]

Oh yeah, forgot about good ol' Aasimon there...

[unosarta]

I am most interested in this project, and would be willing to contribute my services in any homebrewing to be done.

How exactly is Celestia separated into different areas? Like, for the Nine Hells, it is nine different planes ruled by a different Archduke, and souls labor away in each. How is this juxtaposed or mirrored in Celestia?

Are there actual leaders of Celestia, or do they follow the orders of Mortal pantheons? How do they interact?

[Lord_Gareth]

Can we maybe BACK OFF the IRL religion too? I mean, seriously guys. There's plenty of beings of ultimate good in other mythologies. Go raid some of them. This is VERY FAR from being my favorite myths, and ripping from them does much, much more harm than good - after all, D&D is a polytheistic world with some rather complicated cosmic relationships. Depending on which origin myth you believe, the devils aren't even the bad guys (sort of)!

[The Tygre]

Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth

Can we maybe BACK OFF the IRL religion too? I mean, seriously guys. There's plenty of beings of ultimate good in other mythologies. Go raid some of them. This is VERY FAR from being my favorite myths, and ripping from them does much, much more harm than good - after all, D&D is a polytheistic world with some rather complicated cosmic relationships. Depending on which origin myth you believe, the devils aren't even the bad guys (sort of)!

I wasn't aware we actually had yet. I thought the general consensus was that we were going to rescrub a bunch of stuff.

[unosarta]

I can't imagine why this project would be using real world religion anyway.
For example; as Lord Gareth stated, this must interact with polytheistic religions, and, as a bigger point, the gods are actually real. This has a profound and huge impact on how Celestia functions. There are basically two ways to take it; the upper planes serve the Gods, as protectors of mortals, or as soldiers. Or, that the Celestials are a different function entirely than the gods, which seems the more interesting way to take it.

[Iamyourking]

Furthermore, I was operating under the assumption that even if Celestia isn't blatantly Judeo-Christian it had the same general flavor. The other Good planes can draw inspirations from other mythos.

[Eldan]

We can rescrub (nice word) real-world stuff. We can, however, also raid other mythologies. How about I go dig out my On Hallowed Ground and check for celestial gods? That should give us some ideas.

Short primer on Celestia: it's very remotely modelled on Dante's Divine Comedy, like the nine Hells. It's a huge mountain, though at the same time seven mountains (a little confusing). It has seven layers, each ruled by one unique archon. At the bottom of the mountain is the quicksilver sea, at the top is the seventh layer, form which no one has ever returned.

Edit:
I'm very much in the "independent Celestials" camp. They might (and will) cooperate with the gods, but the Archons serve celestial and the cause of Lawful good in general, not the gods of good, just as the devils serve Baator and themselves, not the evil gods.

[Lord_Gareth]

It, ah, looks pretty chock-full of references and hijacked names from where I'm sitting so far.

[unosarta]

Originally Posted by Eldan

Short primer on Celestia: it's very remotely modelled on Dante's Divine Comedy, like the nine Hells. It's a huge mountain, though at the same time seven mountains (a little confusing). It has seven layers, each ruled by one unique archon. At the bottom of the mountain is the quicksilver sea, at the top is the seventh layer, form which no one has ever returned.

So, where exactly are the gods on this giant mountain? Do they even exist in Celestia? I haven't had any experience with Planescape, so where exactly do the gods reside?

[Iamyourking]

I know that Bahamut lives on the second level, not sure about the rest as far as original deities.

[Lord_Gareth]

Originally Posted by unosarta

So, where exactly are the gods on this giant mountain? Do they even exist in Celestia? I haven't had any experience with Planescape, so where exactly do the gods reside?

It REALLY, REALLY depends on who you ask. A lot of gods have their own demiplanes; others just straight up don't stop moving, or reside on various planes of their alignment where they keep palaces or fortresses. However, default fluff puts the powers of Celestia as independant of the gods in terms of authority - essentially speaking, consider any god's palace on Celestia to be rented land that the god itself is responsible for.

[The Tygre]

Originally Posted by unosarta

So, where exactly are the gods on this giant mountain? Do they even exist in Celestia? I haven't had any experience with Planescape, so where exactly do the gods reside?

They're spread around the various layers. I distinctly remember that Vishnu and the Celestial Lotus (and by extension a 1000 headed dragon that can eat stars) are on one layer, and Moradin is beneath the fifth if memory serves right.

Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth

It, ah, looks pretty chock-full of references and hijacked names from where I'm sitting so far.

Son, read the whole post. First off, that's not by anyone even on this forum. Second, it's not officially for the project itself. It's fertile ground; mine out the good elements, melt em' down, scrub em', smooth em', sell em', and profit.

[unosarta]

Originally Posted by The Tygre

They're spread around the various layers. I distinctly remember that Vishnu and the Celestial Lotus (and by extension a 1000 headed dragon that can eat stars) are on one layer, and Moradin is beneath the fifth if memory serves right.

Even the evil gods?

[Edit]:

Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth

It REALLY, REALLY depends on who you ask. A lot of gods have their own demiplanes; others just straight up don't stop moving, or reside on various planes of their alignment where they keep palaces or fortresses. However, default fluff puts the powers of Celestia as independant of the gods in terms of authority - essentially speaking, consider any god's palace on Celestia to be rented land that the god itself is responsible for.

This makes more sense to me. This is interesting. Maybe the gods must actually pay for the land upon which their followers reside after death? Sort of like how they got screwed over by the Fiends (if you follow the FFII fluff, >_>), and they also got screwed over by the Celestials?

[Eldan]

The general rule of Planescape was this:
The outer planes are infinite and ruled by planar races, such as the Baatezu, Tanar'ri, Archons and Eladrin. The gods had realms of a finite size, determined by their divine rank, over which they had almost total control.
So there are various gods on celestia, but they do by no means control all of it, just small sections.
The hells have Tiamat and others, the heavens have Bahamut.

[Iamyourking]

No, just Lawful Good gods. I think the intended meaning was that Gods in general live on either their demi-planes or land on the major planes essentially rented from the Cosmic Entity that owns it.

[Lord_Gareth]

I think ya'll missed my earlier post saying the same thing(s) you just said :P

Now:

Being Lawful Good

Spoiler

You're an uptight jerk!

Okay, no, you don't have to be. Lawful Good beings are defined by a concern with order, authority, obedience, justice (as they view it), peace, serenity, prosperity, and dignity. A Lawful Good being believes that they can bring about positive change through ordered action and legal process, and that proper enforcement of law can help improve not only living conditions, but morality. Lawful Good beings try to know local and national laws and adhere to them; when confronted with a flawed system, they would prefer to work within the system to change it rather than instigate rebellion or forment chaos.

In the context of your average D&D campaign, what this means is that Lawful Good characters tend to be as concerned with the appearence of morality as its applications. Lawful Good characters accept surrenders, treat prisoners with dignity, try to avoid using cruel and unusual tactics, defend the innocent and the weak, and favor social strictures like contracts and oaths of honor. When faced with a choice between an individual's rights and freedoms and that of a group, a Lawful Good character will often choose to protect the group over the whole, which is where their alignment can sometimes come into conflict with itself; sometimes, protecting the group or saving innocent lives can mean staining one's hands with lies or blood. Each Lawful Good character must decide where they draw the line. Is it acceptable to let one innocent die to save another? To deliberately murder one to save ten more? A hundred? A thousand?

In parties, Lawful Good characters are often leaders, mostly because they like having rules to follow and enforce. Lawful Good characters are entirely comfortable with the idea of ritual and formality, and it isn't uncommon for them to carry official charters as mercenaries in the employ of this kingdom or that private individual. Lawful Good characters are very concerned with the appearence of fairness, though they don't always succeed in actually dealing with others evenly, and can, at times, be motivated to deal with them unfairly.

Lawful Good characters oppose chaos and evil out of fear; namely, fear that wild, uncontrolled and corrupting influences will undo the systems upon which they (and others) rely. This may be part of the reason for their extreme behavior when dealing with chaotic and/or evil enemies; these foes represent the antithesis of everything Lawful Good stands for, and the worst part is that they barely seem to need to expend any effort to send even the most carefully-built cities crashing down like houses of cards.

To summarize:

Lawful Good Characters Will Always: Keep their word of honor (except in extreme instances such as to save the world), defend the innocent and the weak, show mercy to prisoners

Lawful Good Characters Will Generally: Accept the judgements of legitimate courts of law, work within a system to change it, show concern for the dignity of sentient beings, forgive repentant enemies, turn prisoners over to the law of the land, comport themselves with dignity (or at least try not to offend too many sensibilities), promote the interests of the group over the individual

Lawful Good Characters Will Rarely: Go beyond the law to seek justice, break laws in the pursuit of their goals, torture prisoners for information (even if life-saving), show a lack of concern for the moral well-being of others (including acting like a judgemental jerk - they don't have to be nice), use combat tactics carelessly (such as in a manner that will harm innocents), steal possessions (even from their enemies, though taking the possessions of a captured prisoner is legitimate), kill for vengeance.

Lawful Good Characters Will Never: Torture or kill for pleasure, steal for profit (though in moments of weakness, they may accept bribes), incite riots or other events of mass chaos purposefully, endanger innocents to protect themselves, hoard supplies, money, or items to the detriment of the innocent or needy, violate another being for pleasure or profit (slavery, rape), grossly violate the law of the land for pleasure or profit.

[Iamyourking]

Actually, you posted as I was writing up my post. In any event, I've almost got the statblock for the Principality done; so that can be gone over while I prepare the description and spell list.

[Eldan]

According to On Hallowed Ground, the following powers have set up camp in Baator:

Sumerian: none
Babylonian: Girru, Lord of the Flame, in The Undying Flame, Mercuria
Celtic: most in Tir na Og or on the Isles, of course. None on Celestia.
Dwarvish: Moradin, the Soul Forger, in Erackhinor, Solania; Berronar Truesilver, the Matron of Home and Heart, same domain;
Egyptian: none, more in the Outlands and on Arcadia
Elvish: on arborea and ysgard mostly, none on celestia
Finnish: all over, but none here.
Gnomes: none
Halflings: Yondalla, The Protector and Provider, in Green Fields, Venya; Arvoreen, The Defender, same domain; Cyrrollalee, The Hand of Fellowship, same domain
Greek:All Olympus or Hades, none on Celestia.
Titans: Imprisoned on Carceri or dead, none on Celestia
Goblins: Go to Acheron, not Celestia
Other Monstrous: Bahamut, the Dragon Paladin, in Bahamut's Palace, Mercuria
Norse: On Ysgard or Niflheim, with a few exceptions. Loki hangs out on Pandemonium with the giants, none on Celestia.
Chinese: none
Indian: probably too close to real world religion for these boards.
Japanese: Amaterasu, Light of Heaven, in Radiant Light, Mercuria
Cerilian (Birthright): Haelyn, The Lawmaker, Honor's Glory, Mercuria
Krynnish (Dragonlance): Paladine, The Dragon's Lord, Dome of Creation, Solania
Oerth (Greyhawk): none listed here (there are some, though. This book just doesn't have them all)
Faerunian (Forgotten Realms): none here, but then, it only lists a few.

[Lord_Gareth]

Any comments on Being Lawful Good there?

[blackjack217]

Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth

Any comments on Being Lawful Good there?

I dislike the bit about cruel and unusual tactics but that may just be that my 8th of 7 will use (darn near) any tactic to save the lives of those under his command and achieve his tactical and strategic goals. These are namely, the defeat of the demon menace, the prevention of the corruption that he fears is taking hold of members of his army (after he is captured that fails miserably) and the protection of the mortal and celestial realms. Note this does not mean he will take hostages and the like.
Other than that? Awesome!
Oh and any ideas for names?

[NineThePuma]

I like it. ^^

... Flood control'd. =\

[Eldan]

Originally Posted by blackjack217

I dislike the bit about cruel and unusual tactics but that may just be that my 8th of 7 will use (darn near) any tactic to save the lives of those under his command and achieve his tactical and strategic goals. These are namely, the defeat of the demon menace, the prevention of the corruption that he fears is taking hold of members of his army (after he is captured that fails miserably) and the protection of the mortal and celestial realms. Note this does not mean he will take hostages and the like.
Other than that? Awesome!
Oh and any ideas for names?

I can't shake the feeling that a lot of that paragraph sounds more lawful neutral, or even lawful evil, than good. More Acheron than Celestia...

[blackjack217]

I guess, but his objective is to keep as many of his men and innocents alive. He has about as much interest in giving the demons a fair fight as a real world army officer has in doing so.

[NineThePuma]

Wait, eighth of seven? Why not just make him part of the seven? =_=;;

[Eldan]

Originally Posted by blackjack217

I guess, but his objective is to keep as many of his men and innocents alive. He has about as much interest in giving the demons a fair fight as a real world army officer has in doing so.

Yes, but considering "any tactic" sounds like, to use a tired expression, a very slippery slope to me. Remember: Asmodeus himself, according to some sources, started as an angel tasked with fighting demons. 8/7 sounds like a prime candidate for falling.

[unosarta]

Originally Posted by Eldan

Yes, but considering "any tactic" sounds like, to use a tired expression, a very slippery slope to me. Remember: Asmodeus himself, according to some sources, started as an angel tasked with fighting demons. 8/7 sounds like a prime candidate for falling.

One interesting way for it to work might be for him to just constantly fall anyway. So, he becomes corrupted by the demons, and then he becomes reborn in a new Celestial, who has his memories and thoughts, as well as personality. His methods are effective enough that none of the other Celestials really care, since he dies fairly quickly anyway.

Just a thought.

[blackjack217]

Originally Posted by DythTheKobold

Wait, eighth of seven? Why not just make him part of the seven? =_=;;

Because he is currently incarcerated in the abyss and not even Asmodeus knows he is alive. In fact he is his Asmodeus' ex-boss and Asmodeus takes over the job after he is thought to have perished. Asmodeus then falls a la the Codex with a hefty bit of resentment against the gods for taking the back seat while 8th of 7 gets killed.

Also when I mean any tactic I mean that he, to the maximum extent possible, seeks to maximize his troops' advantages while minimizing the enemies. He realizes that war is not a dual and its not meant to be fair killing an entire army of demons without losing a single archon is great. Because none of his men died. He is also the most effective general ever, including Asmodeus.

Still if the archons had placed bets on who would fall him or Asmodeus, they would have bet him because he feels that every death under his command is a personal failure. He holds himself to an impossible standard and he knows it.

(this character is partly inspired by Captain John Geary of The Lost Fleet series)

Edit: must finish history to clear up confusion. Sorry about that

[NineThePuma]

Hey, man, why not slip that off into its own thread and link back here, so we can have this thread be for cataloging and direction, rather than for covering every piece of the work?

[blackjack217]

If we are doing that sure I will, thoughts?

[Zaydos]

He sounds like he'd be Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good and more up to Arcadia's methods (good no matter the cost) than Mount Celestia's.