The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment

[Iamyourking]

You should probably start your own thread for classes like I did. Feel free to copy my OP if you do so.

[blackjack217]

Originally Posted by Iamyourking

You should probably start your own thread for classes like I did. Feel free to copy my OP if you do so.

I was actually asking if you think it is ready for posting.

[Iamyourking]

If it's complete other than those, I would say post it. Getting it out amongst the general populace can't hurt.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Originally Posted by The Tygre

I'd be willing to step forward on the spearhead. I'm not much with crunch material, and there's only so much I can do with fluff that others aren't already covering. It's the least I could do. Any objections?

Please do. I'm going to be extremely busy with college and other RL stuff through Thanksgiving at least, and I'm already dealing with running a half-dozen D&D games, so I wouldn't be able to give this the attention it deserves.

[NineThePuma]

I'm sort of lurking. I don't really have much to comment on.

I'm highly anticipating the Celestial Warlock though >>

[blackjack217]

aaaannnnd it's up!
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174220

[Sir_Chivalry]

What is needed for Hebdomad fluff (and stats)? I'd be willing to help out on this front, perhaps with other stuff as well.

If you need examples of my fluff work, see the angelic paragon classes in my sig.

Thank you for considering me for help if you do!

[Iamyourking]

We are still trying to hammer out the fluff, so I would suggest you make a proposal of concept and we can go from there. As for stats, we are aiming for a range of mid-50s for Barachiel to late 70s for Zapkhiel; you can use both my High Caste Archons and the work of Dicefreaks for the Lords of the Nine to get an idea of our intent. Your prestige classes will likely be subject to a review at some later date to see what we can do with them.

[Eldan]

Originally Posted by Sir_Chivalry

What is needed for Hebdomad fluff (and stats)? I'd be willing to help out on this front, perhaps with other stuff as well.

If you need examples of my fluff work, see the angelic paragon classes in my sig.

Thank you for considering me for help if you do!

Well, I have a "new thread" window open full of a few hundred disjointed words and ideas on Lunia. If you can cook up anything good on Barachiel and the Citadel of Stars, that would be great. I can only write so many fortresses, and this plane is full of them. I mean, I havethe Citadel of Stars, Heart's Faith, the Tower of Flames and the Fortress Eternal and Everlasting from the canon books alone. Then my own inventions: the Amber Gates, the trade outpost I haven't named yet, the unnamed Zoveri capital...

[Sir_Chivalry]

Originally Posted by Iamyourking

We are still trying to hammer out the fluff, so I would suggest you make a proposal of concept and we can go from there. As for stats, we are aiming for a range of mid-50s for Barachiel to late 70s for Zapkhiel; you can use both my High Caste Archons and the work of Dicefreaks for the Lords of the Nine to get an idea of our intent. Your prestige classes will likely be subject to a review at some later date to see what we can do with them.

I'll get on these things.

On the subject of my PrCs, what do you mean "what we can do with them"? I thought this project was about Celestia and the archons?

[Eldan]

Yes, it is. Your classes, however, from what I've seen of them, are for homebrew Celestials, not the official Archons. So they would probably need at least some fluff changing.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Originally Posted by Eldan

Yes, it is. Your classes, however, from what I've seen of them, are for homebrew Celestials, not the official Archons. So they would probably need at least some fluff changing.

That's what I mean, they aren't about the archons. They are about paragons of the angels. I can add things in you'd see the angelic paragons being allied with the hebdomad, but really if we're going to start getting into other planes, then we might as well start modifying the Five Companions and the Court of Stars.

I just suggested looking at the fluff for the angelic paragons as an example of my fluffing style, a portfolio sample if you will. Don't get me wrong, I greatly welcome PEACHing on them, I just wanted to make clear that this was not my intent.

[Eldan]

Ah, right. I admit, I've only just looked at them, I thought, since you mentioned them, they were for homebrew archons.

And the hebdomad have their own PrCs anyway in the BoED. Not saying that there couldn't be more, of course.

Edit: is your username a reference to Robin Hobb's books, or did you choose that name for some other reason?

[Sir_Chivalry]

Originally Posted by Eldan

Ah, right. I admit, I've only just looked at them, I thought, since you mentioned them, they were for homebrew archons.

And the hebdomad have their own PrCs anyway in the BoED. Not saying that there couldn't be more, of course.

An easy mistake to make, and one of the reasons I thought I'd get involved here. I enjoyed making the fluff for the angelic paragons, and worst case scenario you guys don't like what I do, but contributing to this would be really nice.

So, Barachiel first?

edit: Completely different actually. In RL I actually try to model my conduct on a sort of pseudo-chivalrous code. The name is just the same name I use everywhere.

[Eldan]

I'd appreciate if you did Barachiel, as I'm writing up Lunia, and the two are, after all, very connected.

I'll also go with the pyramid structure of archons for now, so Lunia will have mostly lanterns and hounds, with the hounds guarding the gates and paths to the second layer.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Originally Posted by Eldan

I'd appreciate if you did Barachiel, as I'm writing up Lunia, and the two are, after all, very connected.

I'll also go with the pyramid structure of archons for now, so Lunia will have mostly lanterns and hounds, with the hounds guarding the gates and paths to the second layer.

And just so I'm clear, as eight or so pages of posts were read last night, you want to improve the Hebdomad in what way? Make them more interesting, more involved with the Prime, more involved with the fight against fiends?

[Iamyourking]

I would suggest starting with Barachiel, although you can do it in any order. In regards to them, thoughts on giving the Hebdomad class levels like the GOH Dukes, Arch-Devils, and Lords of the Nine? Barachiel having levels in Bard, Raziel in Paladin, Fighter, or Crusader, etc.

Finally, I'd like to propose that Hound Archons get reworked to use spears and shields or polearms; as greatswords just seem a bit individualistic for relatively weak but Lawful entities like Hounds. I wanted to do something like that for Authorities (Of which I'm still taking suggestions for better names since I had to drop Powers) but just couldn't resist giving them oversized Jovars.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Originally Posted by Sir_Chivalry

And just so I'm clear, as eight or so pages of posts were read last night, you want to improve the Hebdomad in what way? Make them more interesting, more involved with the Prime, more involved with the fight against fiends?

If nothing else, simply make them more. There's tons of detail on the fiends and their rulers in both 2e and 3e (with the demons and devils each getting a book to themselves in 3e), whereas the only info on the Hebdomad is a chapter or so in BoED and some vague outlines in the 2e material. Giving them motivations, relationships, associations with different archons, rivalries with particular fiends, etc. is all good.

[blackjack217]

Any time we talk about Asamodious there is so much competing fluff the thread could get derailed. (Some people like dicefreaks some like the codex). Celestia and the upper planes in general are not nearly as fleshed out as those in the ventral position. So we are trying to fix that
Edit 1/2 ninja'd

[Iamyourking]

I'd also suggest that Chivalry and Eldan collaberate on their projects as they are so closely linked; even moreso than the Lords of the Nine are with their layers.

[Eldan]

Originally Posted by Iamyourking

I would suggest starting with Barachiel, although you can do it in any order. In regards to them, thoughts on giving the Hebdomad class levels like the GOH Dukes, Arch-Devils, and Lords of the Nine? Barachiel having levels in Bard, Raziel in Paladin, Fighter, or Crusader, etc.

Actually, IIRC, it was agreed that we would to different varieties for every Archon. Somehow, though, I just can't see Hounds as really being Rank&File fighters. Hunters, stalkers, even guard dogs, yes, but not really standing there in rows with spear and shield. I'd actually give them ranged weapons to emphasize their hunter rule. Just spears coudl work, they are traditional hunter weapons as well.

For Archons standing in units (which make a good image for Celestia in any case), I'd rather look to Sword and warden archons, who seem to be the dedicated fighters.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Originally Posted by Iamyourking

I would suggest starting with Barachiel, although you can do it in any order. In regards to them, thoughts on giving the Hebdomad class levels like the GOH Dukes, Arch-Devils, and Lords of the Nine? Barachiel having levels in Bard, Raziel in Paladin, Fighter, or Crusader, etc.

Finally, I'd like to propose that Hound Archons get reworked to use spears and shields or polearms; as greatswords just seem a bit individualistic for relatively weak but Lawful entities like Hounds. I wanted to do something like that for Authorities (Of which I'm still taking suggestions for better names since I had to drop Powers) but just couldn't resist giving them oversized Jovars.

Well levels in a base class wouldn't go wrong, though perhaps merely giving them abilities from said classes would be better, as then they don't have to wallow in the lower levels and we can just give them the powers we want to build them correctly. Just as a thought:

Barachiel- Bard
Domiel- Rogue
Erathaol- Wizard
Pistis Sophia- Monk
Raziel- Paladin
Sealtiel- Knight
Zaphkiel- Hanged if I know!

Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost

If nothing else, simply make them more. There's tons of detail on the fiends and their rulers in both 2e and 3e (with the demons and devils each getting a book to themselves in 3e), whereas the only info on the Hebdomad is a chapter or so in BoED and some vague outlines in the 2e material. Giving them motivations, relationships, associations with different archons, rivalries with particular fiends, etc. is all good.

Do I have a little permission to link them to other goodly powers? Such as the goodly gods or the paragons of other good outsiders? (maybe also the angelic paragons?)

[Iamyourking]

Originally Posted by Eldan

Actually, IIRC, it was agreed that we would to different varieties for every Archon. Somehow, though, I just can't see Hounds as really being Rank&File fighters. Hunters, stalkers, even guard dogs, yes, but not really standing there in rows with spear and shield. I'd actually give them ranged weapons to emphasize their hunter rule. Just spears coudl work, they are traditional hunter weapons as well.

For Archons standing in units (which make a good image for Celestia in any case), I'd rather look to Sword and warden archons, who seem to be the dedicated fighters.

I was considering that, but the problems are that: 1. They are too strong at CR 9 and 11 to really be suited for massed rank fighting and 2. Neither of them actually have hands.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Originally Posted by Iamyourking

I was considering that, but the problems are that: 1. They are too strong at CR 9 and 11 to really be suited for maassed rank fighting and 2. Neither of them actually have hands.

Actually they both do, the sword archons can change between hands and swords, and warden archons are the big polar bears, and it is sort of assumed (guardinal principle) that anthropomorphic animals can hold things in their hands well enough to wield weapons.

[Iamyourking]

Good point, we can leave it up to whoever opts to redo the lesser archons.

[Eldan]

And again, if we are redoing them anyway, there's no problem with variants having hands and variants lacking them.


CR 9 might be a little too strong for Rank & File troops, true. In the Blood War, that would put them on the level of things like Barbed Devils or Vrocks, Elite Troops in other words.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Originally Posted by Sir_Chivalry

Do I have a little permission to link them to other goodly powers? Such as the goodly gods or the paragons of other good outsiders? (maybe also the angelic paragons?)

You don't need permission, just do what you feel is best. The more connections, the better.

Originally Posted by Iamyourking

Good point, we can leave it up to whoever opts to redo the lesser archons.

I'll keep that in mind.

[Eldan]

There's a wealth of good gods and their realms already semi-detailed, I guess fleshing a few of them out a little more can't hurt.

Someone over on Planewalker suggested doing more with Moradin's realm. That should be a good idea.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Originally Posted by Iamyourking

Good point, we can leave it up to whoever opts to redo the lesser archons.

I'd suggest some sort of soldier archon, perhaps similar to the steel devil in role.

[blackjack217]

I suggest that we start by compiling a list of Archons from all books. Gives us some idea of what is available and what should be added.