The Gates of Heaven: Giving Celestia the Dicefreaks Treatment - Page 9

Iamyourking · 11-02-2010, 12:14 PM

To the best of my knowledge, the archons consist of:
Lantern, CR 3, Hound, CR 4, and Trumpet, CR 14 in the MM and
Warden, CR 9, Owl, CR 11, Sword, CR 11, and Throne, CR 16, in the BoED.

We will probably want to add something between Hound and Warden, boost Throne to at least 18, and add something between Throne and Trumpet at a bare minimum.

blackjack217 · 11-02-2010, 12:44 PM

Justice archon CR 6 MM IV page 80. Need stat block?
We should find some kind of Arcane magic user or something to fill it out. OR we could create whatever the erines fell from (that is never really clear is it?) instant mortal enemy + flavor ftw

Eldan · 11-02-2010, 03:11 PM

There's also the Word Archon in the Tome of Magic. With that name, it would probably make a good mage.

I am, however, still in favour of keeping seven main varieties of archons, more or less one per layer (or, as suggested, one between each pair of layers, so that each layer effectively has two kinds). That way, the theme of sevens is preserved, and I like constant number schemes.

edit: should we also write up the Asuras? I think they were one of the most flavourful approaches to "Fallen Archon".

Sir_Chivalry · 11-02-2010, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldan

should we also write up the Asuras? I think they were one of the most flavourful approaches to "Fallen Archon".

The Asura, at least as I remember, were precursors to the Rakshasa in myth, if not a completely interchangeable word. In DnD, what is the relationship between these flame-winged celestials, the archons, the angels and the fiendish rakshasa?

Eldan · 11-02-2010, 03:32 PM

They seem to have pretty much nothing in common with Hindu mythology, actually. The Deva as well, in D&D, they are just the lowest castes of angels. The Raksha are at least similar.

In Planescape, the Asura are Archons that have fallen to chaos, instead of evil. So they are still good, but not Archons anymore.

Sir_Chivalry · 11-02-2010, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldan

They seem to have pretty much nothing in common with Hindu mythology, actually. The Deva as well, in D&D, they are just the lowest castes of angels. The Raksha are at least similar.

In Planescape, the Asura are Archons that have fallen to chaos, instead of evil. So they are still good, but not Archons anymore.

REALLY?! Wow! Thank you, I was wondering. Okay, continue as if I said nothing. Sorry.

Eldan · 11-02-2010, 03:47 PM

As I said, I think it's an interesting take on the Fallen angel bit. Some day, they just go "screw all this marching in line and hierarchy crap!" and walk off.

Iamyourking · 11-02-2010, 03:49 PM

I say that the Asura should probably just be a template in the same vein as Archons who fell to evil, since it seems unlikely that a fallen Hound Archon and a fallen Throne Archon would use the same stats. Just swap out the law-based spell-likes for their chaotic equivalents, maybe change around the DR, and leave it at that.

Sir_Chivalry · 11-02-2010, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iamyourking

I say that the Asura should probably just be a template in the same vein as Archons who fell to evil, since it seems unlikely that a fallen Hound Archon and a fallen Throne Archon would use the same stats. Just swap out the law-based spell-likes for their chaotic equivalents, maybe change around the DR, and leave it at that.

Something like this?- Deranged Template

Eldan · 11-02-2010, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir_Chivalry

Something like this?- Deranged Template

That... doesn't really fit.
I mean, the Asura are not deranged or crazy. They just value freedom and individuality more than hierarchy and order.

Eldan · 11-02-2010, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir_Chivalry

Something like this?- Deranged Template

That... doesn't really fit.
I mean, the Asura are not deranged or crazy. They just value freedom and individuality more than hierarchy and order.

Iamyourking · 11-02-2010, 03:56 PM

More or less, less extreme than the fallen angel template; but still sufficent to differentiate them from Archons.

blackjack217 · 11-02-2010, 03:56 PM

As to the 7 archon thing we can make it so that there are 7 "main" archons each associated with a particular lair but not exclusive to it. (I mean the lowest lair of Celestia and its first line of defense composed entirely of lantern archons?) And then any other archons we see fit to add are "specialized" for a specific task. I mean do we really want to limit options for prospective users to 7 archons?

Eldan · 11-02-2010, 03:58 PM

I thought the idea we agreed upon was seven archons with subspecies to each?

I.e.
Hound Archon: Hound Hunter, Hound Guard, Hound Stalker
Lantern Archon: seven lanterns for the seven virtues and the seven colours of the rainbow
Sword Archons: different weapons and combat styles (perhaps a crossover with Age of Warriors).

Iamyourking · 11-02-2010, 03:58 PM

I am personally opposed to sticking with 7 varieties of Archon, as there are 9 already in the books. I say we bring the number up to 14 and leave it at that; making a compromise between symbolism and variety.

To elaborate: There isn't 9 types of devil or 6 types of demon, so we shouldn't feel shackled to limiting ourselves to 7 types of archon.

Eldan · 11-02-2010, 04:02 PM

Hmm.

How about this:
One Archon variety per layer, and one Archon variety guarding the border between layers? (The paths are already difficult to impossible to climb by intruders, but more defences always help).

That way, we can have the relatively weak lantern archons on Lunia, where they fit well, but also Trumpet Archons with Barachiel, the Herald and a variety of defenders guarding it.

Really, though: Lunia is already a great natural defence: an ocean of holy water, and no way to avoid falling in, no matter how you travel into it. (except maybe Portals from Sigil. Those tend to ignore rules).

Edit: Planescape had very limited numbers of devils in a strict hierachy with clearly defined roles. I think that was a good thing.

Sir_Chivalry · 11-02-2010, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldan

Hmm.

How about this:
One Archon variety per layer, and one Archon variety guarding the border between layers? (The paths are already difficult to impossible to climb by intruders, but more defences always help).

That way, we can have the relatively weak lantern archons on Lunia, where they fit well, but also Trumpet Archons with Barachiel, the Herald and a variety of defenders guarding it.

Really, though: Lunia is already a great natural defence: an ocean of holy water, and no way to avoid falling in, no matter how you travel into it. (except maybe Portals from Sigil. Those tend to ignore rules).

Edit: Planescape had very limited numbers of devils in a strict hierachy with clearly defined roles. I think that was a good thing.

I like this idea, but I got to be a pain and say two things about the bolded section.

1. Flight

2. Boats

Fiends aren't stupid.

Iamyourking · 11-02-2010, 04:07 PM

I still count 18 different varieties of common Baatezu spanning the spectrum from 1 to 20; which is what I think we should aim for, not 7 varities that go from 3 to 16.

PairO'Dice Lost · 11-02-2010, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iamyourking

I still count 18 different varieties of common Baatezu spanning the spectrum from 1 to 20; which is what I think we should aim for, not 7 varities that go from 3 to 16.

Let's go with Eldan's idea, then; 14 to 18 is comparable enough.

Iamyourking · 11-02-2010, 04:14 PM

Oh certainly, his idea is an elaboration of mine to begin with. My statement was more a counter to the claim that the varieties of devil were very limited.

Eldan · 11-02-2010, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir_Chivalry

I like this idea, but I got to be a pain and say two things about the bolded section.

1. Flight

2. Boats

Fiends aren't stupid.

It's not my idea, really. Planescape did it. Planeshift, walking, transition zones, conduits, they all dump you in the ocean.

And yes, it doesn't solve the defence problem. A lot of fiends can fly. But their basic infantry can't, and building enough ships is a pain. And then there's the Zoveri, Balanea, oceanus dragons and other aquatic critters making an invasion a pain.

Sir_Chivalry · 11-02-2010, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldan

It's not my idea, really. Planescape did it. Planeshift, walking, transition zones, conduits, they all dump you in the ocean.

And yes, it doesn't solve the defence problem. A lot of fiends can fly. But their basic infantry can't, and building enough ships is a pain. And then there's the Zoveri, Balanea, oceanus dragons and other aquatic critters making an invasion a pain.

Oh certainly, just putting the cards on the table, as I'm working on the Ruler of Lunia atm.

blackjack217 · 11-02-2010, 04:19 PM

14 sounds good. May I suggest that Lunia has a standing army comprised of archons from all lairs to repel attacks from fiends and such like?

Sir_Chivalry · 11-02-2010, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackjack217

14 sounds good. May I suggest that Lunia has a standing army comprised of archons from all lairs to repel attacks from fiends and such like?

Would mirror Baator nicely, my vote would be yes.

Eldan · 11-02-2010, 04:20 PM

Sure. And, of course, there's the Order of Planes Militant, who should be happy to help out. It's their mission, after all.

Sir_Chivalry · 11-02-2010, 04:24 PM

Just so I know what I've got to work with for my fluff work, the archon hierarchy we are looking at is sort of:

Lunia-
1st Gate-
Mercuria-
2nd Gate-
Venya-
3rd Gate-
Solania-
4th Gate-
Mertion-
5th Gate-
Jovar-
6th Gate-
Chronias-

I count thirteen, seven layers and six middle points. How should we allocate?

I'll edit as we figure it out.

blackjack217 · 11-02-2010, 04:27 PM

Something came up from my celestial warlock thread. All archons have greater teleport at will which is kinda strong for a cr 1 creature if we make one.

Sir_Chivalry · 11-02-2010, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackjack217

Something came up from my celestial warlock thread. All archons have greater teleport at will which is kinda strong for a cr 1 creature if we make one.

Well, for monsters they wouldn't really care. It's only if we are making them PC races that it matters. Plus it is only itself and 50 pounds of objects, i.e. heavy armour is out, treasure is out.

blackjack217 · 11-02-2010, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir_Chivalry

Well, for monsters they wouldn't really care. It's only if we are making them PC races that it matters. Plus it is only itself and 50 pounds of objects, i.e. heavy armour is out, treasure is out.

How is the lvl 1 PCs gonna kill it? besides getting scry and died by cr 1 creatures is just embarrassing. Also 1 HD messengers with greater teleport at will. Summon monster II (or such) acts as a message spell of unlimited range

Sir_Chivalry · 11-02-2010, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackjack217

How is the lvl 1 PCs gonna kill it?

With weapons and spells, defeating it is still defeating it, DM can't penalize you for that

Quote:

besides getting scry and died by cr 1 creatures is just embarrassing.

I doubt a CR 1 archon can scry and die, unless it is a powerful spellcaster (in which case the argument is moot) or has a crystal ball (unusual circumstance)

Quote:

Also 1 HD messengers with greater teleport at will. Summon monster II (or such) acts as a message spell of unlimited range

Unless they aren't on the summon monster list. Summon Nature's Ally doesn't summon Gray Renders, for instance.