The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!

[Random NPC]

Questions:

In an Eberron RHoD, how would things changed if the Tiri Kitor elves are actually a band of Valenar Elves? Are the giant owls really important? Can they be changed to Valenar horses?

[Coidzor]

Flight does make a world of difference in terms of getting the PCs around with a vastly reduced random encounter potential as well as allowing them to travel in straight lines rather than along paths/roads or trailblazing through rough country...

And horses don't make quite as much sense for a decisive bit of aid in a battle inside of a city in most cases, what with the layer of spears, longspears, awl pikes, and debris in the streets that could be set up to effectively deny them a cavalry charge, since horses are of limited mobility due to the buildings getting in the way of their ability to flank like cavalry likes to be able to do.

From what I recall though, could quite handily refluff their aid to skirmishing cuirassiers to cut up the horde's supply lines and other such harassment of the flanks.

[Starbuck_II]

But the book makes much about horses and travel time.
Granted it admits teleporting effects are better. It doesn't say a thing about flying for the PCs I think.

After reading this and getting it, I almost want to DM it but never ran a module before. It really is a good read at minimum (maybe in December try PbP if find any players.)

[AslanCross]

Originally Posted by Random NPC

Questions:

In an Eberron RHoD, how would things changed if the Tiri Kitor elves are actually a band of Valenar Elves? Are the giant owls really important? Can they be changed to Valenar horses?

Valenar Elves would be a lot less nice, but since they have some serious ethnic hate for the hobgoblins, they might be more likely to fight for the PCs. Conversely, the Red Hand is likely to hit them first, since the goblinoids really hate the Valenar elves for carving a piece out of their empire.

Other issues are as follows:

1. Valenar elves prefer open steppes. Why are they in a swamp cut off from the plains by a large, haunted forest?

2. Why there are Valenar elves there in the first place? This is highly dependent on where you actually place the Elsir Vale. It wasn't feasible in my campaign since I set it in the eastern tip of Breland (Dennovar was replaced by Vathirond, the last city before the Mournland). It was on the other side of the Mournland from Valenar.

3. While the Valenar elves hate hobgoblins, they don't have good relations with many other nations. They regularly raid Karrnath, for one. If you set the Vale in other possible settings (out-of-the-way places like eastern Breland or the Eldeen Reacheers), you'll have to explain why there are humans there, or change the inhabitants of Brindol and the other towns.

4. The owls only matter if the PCs get them, since they have to really impress the elves to get them. Same thing with the Valenar horses, as those are custom bred and not so lightly given to outsiders.

Valenar horses, strictly speaking, are faster (covering 64 miles in a day while the owls would cover only 56 (7 mph x 8 hours). However, they can avoid most encounters by flying, and as mentioned, can travel in a straight line. That saves a lot of time.

[Random NPC]

Originally Posted by AslanCross

Valenar Elves would be a lot less nice, but since they have some serious ethnic hate for the hobgoblins, they might be more likely to fight for the PCs. Conversely, the Red Hand is likely to hit them first, since the goblinoids really hate the Valenar elves for carving a piece out of their empire.

Other issues are as follows:

1. Valenar elves prefer open steppes. Why are they in a swamp cut off from the plains by a large, haunted forest?

2. Why there are Valenar elves there in the first place? This is highly dependent on where you actually place the Elsir Vale. It wasn't feasible in my campaign since I set it in the eastern tip of Breland (Dennovar was replaced by Vathirond, the last city before the Mournland). It was on the other side of the Mournland from Valenar.

3. While the Valenar elves hate hobgoblins, they don't have good relations with many other nations. They regularly raid Karrnath, for one. If you set the Vale in other possible settings (out-of-the-way places like eastern Breland or the Eldeen Reacheers), you'll have to explain why there are humans there, or change the inhabitants of Brindol and the other towns.

4. The owls only matter if the PCs get them, since they have to really impress the elves to get them. Same thing with the Valenar horses, as those are custom bred and not so lightly given to outsiders.

Valenar horses, strictly speaking, are faster (covering 64 miles in a day while the owls would cover only 56 (7 mph x 8 hours). However, they can avoid most encounters by flying, and as mentioned, can travel in a straight line. That saves a lot of time.

I see.

You think Tiri Kitor Shifters (if Vale is on the westish part of Breland) would work? They are wild elves and thus shifters make more sense. Lol, maybe even Gatekeeper Orcs

[AslanCross]

Originally Posted by Random NPC

I see.

You think Tiri Kitor Shifters (if Vale is on the westish part of Breland) would work? They are wild elves and thus shifters make more sense. Lol, maybe even Gatekeeper Orcs

Either of those might actually work better than Valenar elves, IMO. They're likely to have isolated enclaves.

In hindsight, I should've used Shifters instead.

[Runestar]

So I take it we are all comfortable with leaving the hobgoblin regulars as warrior2? I suppose they could spend their feat on martial study, which nets them the use of 1 maneuver 1/encounter. Steel wind would be useful.

What about the veterans?

Bladebearer invests in balance to trigger massed charge (teamwork benefit from PHB2). Like that idea very much.

Hellhounds are cr3, all the suggested alternatives are much higher in cr. Should we leave them as they are or replace them with more hobgoblin npcs?

[AslanCross]

Originally Posted by Runestar

So I take it we are all comfortable with leaving the hobgoblin regulars as warrior2? I suppose they could spend their feat on martial study, which nets them the use of 1 maneuver 1/encounter. Steel wind would be useful.

What about the veterans?

Bladebearer invests in balance to trigger massed charge (teamwork benefit from PHB2). Like that idea very much.

Hellhounds are cr3, all the suggested alternatives are much higher in cr. Should we leave them as they are or replace them with more hobgoblin npcs?

Since the regulars are just there to pretty much die, I thought they were fine as warriors. I preferred to use them as archers, actually.

The veterans I turned into warblades focused on White Raven and using halberds.

Bladebearers also got the ToB treatment, so that they could TWF properly.

As for the hellhound replacement: Dire Wolf is CR 3. Higher HP and far more dangerous due to Trip.

[pffh]

What about running it for fewer then 4 players? I have 2 maybe 3 (damn RL stuff getting in the way) players that I'm thinking of running it for andwould letting them start at level 6 be enough?

[CockroachTeaParty]

Speaking of what to do after RHoD comes to a conclusion...

In our RL game, we wound up as the owners of Vrath Keep (well, specifically, our party rogue did). What we didn't know, was that our rogue had made some shady deals with Lady Kaal, who had also made some dealings with a powerful Pit Fiend. Lady Kaal had our rogue steal a potent artifact from the Tiri Kitor, which she was able to use to call the Pit Fiend to the material plane. The Pit Fiend then began to make our lives a living hell.

We chased the pit fiend all across the vale as he led us into various traps. He even got the Ghost Lord to join in on the fun, who was all too eager to have his revenge (we destroyed his phylactery).

At one point, two of the party members were killed, so me and the spirit shaman traveled to the outer planes and retrieved them from their afterlives. We enlisted the help of a planetar, who helped resurrect our friends in exchange for passage to the material plane. Tragically, this came back to haunt us as the planetar took over the cathedral of Pelor in Brindol and began to make everyone miserable with his impossible standards of goodness.

To complicate matters further, the big powerful sorcerer from Dennovar challenged my character to a spell duel (he was an arrogant prick, but the Pit Fiend had also promised him power). My wizard/warmage/ultimate magus curb stomped him easily, though.

Finally, after defeating the Ghost Lord, convincing the planetar to help us fight the Pit Fiend and return to heaven, bringing Lady Kaal to justice, and hunting down the pit fiend, we had our climactic battle (on top of a volcano!). The fiend had hunted down the lost (insane) love of my character's life, and offered him a deal to restore her sanity in exchange for self-exile to Sigil. (he offered each party member a tempting deal as well, but we all refused and fought him! Grr!)

It was a tough fight. We were ECL 15-ish, and though we had prepared the best defenses we could, the Pit Fiend was still a CR 20 menace. Miraculously, he rolled a natural 1 on his save against a Banishment spell, and he was sent back to Hell where he belonged. Moved by our efforts, the planetar restored my character's lost love to sanity using a potent Miracle, then returned to the heavens.

Our party then went their separate ways, having finally made Elsir Vale safe again. Good times...

[AslanCross]

Originally Posted by pffh

What about running it for fewer then 4 players? I have 2 maybe 3 (damn RL stuff getting in the way) players that I'm thinking of running it for andwould letting them start at level 6 be enough?

You've still got action economy against them. What I did (originally I had 5 players, but they backed out until their schedules cleared up) was have each of them handle two characters. This may not work for everyone, though, since some players have difficulty handling one character, let alone two.

[Saintheart]

Slowly adding bits and pieces to the handbook; RL has me in a bind. Continue your discussions, ladies and gents...

[Golbez57]

Originally Posted by pffh

What about running it for fewer then 4 players? I have 2 maybe 3 (damn RL stuff getting in the way) players that I'm thinking of running it for andwould letting them start at level 6 be enough?

I'm considering 3 characters with gestalt rules. I was going to do that for Pathfinder's "Kingmaker" but the sheer size and scope of that one just wore me out before we even started.

"RHoD" was my favorite 3.5 player experience (though a certain fiendish behir did us in messily...) and we did 3 gestalt PCs for that. My monk-cleric was loads of fun.

Anyone else done gestalts for "RHoD"?

I've got a huge 3.5 library that's gone mostly unused, so if/when I GM it, I am going to try to dust off certain books , maybe focusing on one per chapter or so. "Heroes of Horror" for the Ghostlord, "Heroes of Battle" for Brindol, "Fiendish Codex" and "Book of Vile Darkness" for the Fane, etc. I've already reworked some of the goblin cavalry as Cavalier (PFRPG) 1/Dragonfire Adepts 5. Brutal, mobile little wolf-riders. Also toying with Kharn according to the suggestions made. I forgot how brutal Crusader could be.

Have really enjoyed the discussions here!

[Elfin]

I think 3 Gestalt characters will do basically fine, I expect. They're only one less than the expected party size, and their double progression should more than make up for their lost member in most situations.
The place I see them having trouble in is combat against multiple strong foes (the giants in the Battle of Brindol, for example) but I don't think that will get too problematic.

As for my own campaign: it seems that our usual DM won't actually be available for our game tomorrow, so I'll have to start running RHOD tomorrow rather than in a week like I expected. Yikes.

[Starbuck_II]

Don't forget PCs can hire hirelings if they really want extra strength. Yes, it gets cost over time, but they don't steal XP/treasure.

I wonder if Gestalt Hirelings cost more.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by Starbuck_II

Don't forget PCs can hire hirelings if they really want extra strength. Yes, it gets cost over time, but they don't steal XP/treasure.

I wonder if Gestalt Hirelings cost more.

Down that way lies madness.

With the way things are recommended to be run in a gestalt game, I get the feeling that hirelings probably shouldn't be gestalted.

Since hirelings don't gain XP, they'd need more of them, or at least some opportunities to get new ones as they become obsolete.

I'd probably just be lazy and let them have a cohort but no followers, which would have the added advantage of not having minions upon minions involved in the fights.

[ka_bna]

I've read this thread and read about how the enemies may have to be upgraded.
Question: is this conclusion (and other conclusions in this tread) valid too for a game core-only (PHB, DMG, MM1)?

[Starbuck_II]

No, in Core-only you don't need to make the enemy stronger (I guess), but many of enemy aren't core.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Originally Posted by Starbuck_II

No, in Core-only you don't need to make the enemy stronger (I guess), but many of enemy aren't core.

Yeah, there's stuff sprinkled throughout from several different splatbooks. MM II, MM IV, Draconomicon, Complete Divine, Fiendish Codex II (sort of), Frostburn, and maybe some others... granted, the things taken from these sources are primarily monsters and sub-par classes and prestige classes.

[Dusk Eclipse]

This handbook (and the fact that I found AD&D players on my school that are willing to try 3.5) have re-kindled my interest in trying to run the RHoD, so I thank all of you for all this work that will my life far easier.

Now I've got some questions:

If I start the characters at level 6, increasing all enemies HD/class level by 1, be enough to compensate?

How far you think I should have everythng stated up? I was thinking on having all enemies, npc, etc from "The Witchwood" stated up prior to start the adventure.

What would be easier to DM in, generic fantasy setting #45724234 or in Eberron?

[Coidzor]

No idea on the level six and upping everything a HD idea, sorry.

Having the Witchwood all figured out initially is the minimum I'd recommend, since it's unlikely but possible they'd blow past Koth and make it to the bridge in a session. The most important things are the primary antagonists in the form of the dragons and the wyrmlords.

A generic world would require less work to set up because you can just go "welp, here's the vale" whereas with a more rigid (at least in regards to hordes and armies prowling about), established setting like Eberron you've got to figure out where to put it and have some level of pressure to take into account setting fluff/mechanics. So, it depends on whether having to do less work in making the adventure fit with the world or having some established canon/fluff to flesh out the world is preferable for you.

[Dusk Eclipse]

hmmm well I think I'll try to stat up, at least half-way through the second part.... that should give me enough for the first session at least.

And it is really a toss up for me about generic vs. Eberron, I love Eberron's flavour and I would really like to set up the adventure there... but I really don't have the time to check all the logistic and geographical implications if I set it there.

[Runestar]

If I start the characters at level 6, increasing all enemies HD/class level by 1, be enough to compensate?

Class lvs don't really improve npcs' cr at a 1:1 rate. You may find yourself having to add at lest 2-3 class lvs to justify a +1cr increase.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse

And it is really a toss up for me about generic vs. Eberron, I love Eberron's flavour and I would really like to set up the adventure there... but I really don't have the time to check all the logistic and geographical implications if I set it there.

Well, Aslancross did some work with porting it to Eberron, setting it on the outskirts of Breland, I believe. Might ask him a thing or two if you're curious, since I believe he mentioned having had several places he considered plugging it in.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Originally Posted by Runestar

Class lvs don't really improve npcs' cr at a 1:1 rate. You may find yourself having to add at lest 2-3 class lvs to justify a +1cr increase.

I was considereing rebuilding all enemies (including mooks) with PC classes, for example the hob regulars, being built as fighters instead of warriors, IIRC in that case there was 1:1 CR increase.

Originally Posted by Coidzor

Well, Aslancross did some work with porting it to Eberron, setting it on the outskirts of Breland, I believe. Might ask him a thing or two if you're curious, since I believe he mentioned having had several places he considered plugging it in.

I think I might ask... I'll have to check an Eberron Map to make sure anyway

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse

I was considereing rebuilding all enemies (including mooks) with PC classes, for example the hob regulars, being built as fighters instead of warriors, IIRC in that case there was 1:1 CR increase.

LA buyoff or no LA buyoff?

Did somebody say map?

[Dusk Eclipse]

in my group Hobs, get their not-deserved LA nixed.

Thanks for the link, dusk is a happy panda now.

[Runestar]

I was considereing rebuilding all enemies (including mooks) with PC classes, for example the hob regulars, being built as fighters instead of warriors, IIRC in that case there was 1:1 CR increase.

My point was that classed npcs tend to be weaker than their cr lets on, so simply adding classes at a 1:1 rate may not achieve the desired result in actual gameplay.

For example, a hobgoblin fighter4 is a cr4 on paper, but for that same cr, you could also have a young white dragon or very young blue dragon.

[Coidzor]

That reminds me. Kinda strikes me as odd that Mr. Blue was the kind that would make half-dragons but that there weren't more half-dragon sprog of his sent after the party.

[Golbez57]

Speaking of blue baddies, has anyone used the Bluespawn Godslayers from MM IV? I would love to get some action out of my Huge miniatures. I think a pair of them in the Battle of Brindol would be epic... maybe too much so.