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Ah, the new version. Thank you for your hard work, Dust.
As for the questions and clarifications - I'll have some once I'll read it more carefully. For now:
Can a Samurai trigger Blaze of Glory with his one-shot duel ability?
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English isn't my native. Sorry for all misunderstandings.
Familiar summons YOU avatar by happyturtle
To play a fighter is to play the game
To play a wizard is to understand the rules
To understand the rules and still play a fighter is to understand the game (c)don't remember who
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Originally Posted by babel_matrix
Never thought to put a song for the character... brilliant! Have a Guinness!
I registered just to add a little of my own constructive criticism on the new FFd6 version (also in spoiler tags, because that seems a really nice, organized way to do it):
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Main Attributes' word choice and function:
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I can see the idea here for attribute names, avoiding the standard names for things and getting a word that well-encapsulates what the attribute is, but there are definite problems.
Power seems to be a combined strength/wisdom sort of deal, which I can respect, but it becomes essentially impossible to roleplay. With the Charismagic ability, as well, it seems to also encapsulate charisma to an extent. I think the previous edition's separate Spirit attribute should have been kept, so that mages would mostly wind up with low-power weapon attacks (whether they used their STR or half their INT to damage). Spirit also kept the attributes more in line with FF4 and thereabouts, where it was sort of the "white magic stat."
Resolve: I have a lot of issue with this one. The abbreviation is RES, which makes me think of resistence, which brings to mind status resistence (which is the domain or Force, correct?). Just calling it Stamina or something similar I think would help minimize confusion as to what it does. And after all, a Black Mage's Crystal Cannon ability can lower their resolve. Makes more sense when it is actually their physical stamina.
Dexterity: No problems with this one, though it does feel sort of out of place with all of these less "standard" RPG attributes. Whether Dexterity, Agility, or Speed, it'd both fit perfectly for what it needs to be and fail spectacularly at explaining everything it pertains to, but that's a problem with English, not your word choice.
Mind: Not entirely sure why the name of this one bothers me so much, I think it comes down to the abbreviation and what it does. MND looks sloppy on a page compared to INT or WIS, and considering spirituality is the main domain of white mages, it's a little unclear as to why Mind is the main attribute used in most white magic. Again, relegating most of Mind's duties to Spirit and replacing it with the magical effects of Force would help the function, and calling it Intellect would give it a "cleaner" abbreviation.
I totally get the idea behind wanting all roughly balanced attributes, but the effect of this is that they tell you nothing about the character, just how they perform in combat. Maybe this is intentional, but it's not as convenient to roleplay with.
Second, the secondary and attribute names:
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Force and Finnesse: First rule of designing an RPG system: choose names as far away from each other for major stats as possible. Quickly scanning a page, the two words are too similar to easily tell the difference, and neither one tells you much about the character in general. I admit that as I have not had time to thoroughly explore what each stat does (though all of their functions should be made clearer on the page) so I'm just making assumptions based on what I've seen. Finesse is mostly for determining skill maximums, acting as a reflex save equivalent, and a number of other odd uses, and the number is derived from Dexterity and Mind. To that end, it is well named. Force, on the other hand, seems more like Will/Fortitude save, as well as the ability to break inanimate objects and the like? I'm not really sure what it's supposed to be a measure of, but calling it "Resolve" would do wonders for readability, keep to more or less the same idea, and recycle a less well used main attribute word.
ACC and AVD: Again, refer to the first rule. Other than perhaps being faster to type, or wanting a theme there or something, I can't see why Evasion was changed to Avoidance. EVA and ACC work much better together in my opinion for readability. Also note that under these rules, since most classes only seem to offer 1 ACC bonus, almost every character of the same level is going to have the same chance to hit. Okay, reread the ACC bonus for each class and I can see what you're going for better now. I guess it was just every class I had looked at up to now. It's functional, but there are a few numbers I would disagree with (monks only getting 1 bonus while Dark Knights, who ought to deal out heavy damage, but only when they manage to hit, get 2. Other than that, though, it looks good.
This is a lot wordier already then I intended, so this will be the last of the things I don't like for now:
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I've always thought that D&D 3E's main flaw is that they don't manage to make every level interesting to gain (unless you're a fighter). Paladins spend level after level not gaining spells or feats, just skills and HP. Monks, too. This system, by just moving either the two attribute levels or the job ability levels down one would make the odd-numbered levels less boring to reach. I can also agree with the idea behind giving out Limit Abilities on the same level as Limit Breaks, and I can't speak for what it would do to the balance to change that, but it seems like moving them away from the big events in levelling, so to speak, would allow there to be more big events, making even more levels exciting. For example: Levels 7 and 13. Again, that change I'm not as sure on, and I would probably not bother houseruling it myself.
Also, the Dragoon's Jump ability still seems to have the wrong idea to me. I always thought that it should be a delayed, strong attack that takes the Dragoon out of the fight (keeping in mind that they are also tanks). I saw that they get an attack against all enemies in Close range of where they land, which is a nice touch, but I think a better idea would be either forcing maximum damage if the attack lands, or guaranteeing a hit and increasing damage to 150% of whatever lands, or something more along those lines. To me Dragoons have always been best against single targets (like Dragons) and somewhat poor against hordes of weaklings. Again, this is mostly a flavour thing.
Now for a couple of changes I really liked. There's much more in this new edition that I loved, but holy hell this is a wall of text already:
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The rules for making armour and accessories and food, for one. The unified property list really does wonders for the process.
I like that more classes can use shields. I would have extended that to Dark Knights and Dragoons as well (maybe Thieves, too, since they lack the ability to dual wield by default), but again, I can't speak for the balance.
I really like that a lot of rules are better specified, such as unarmed attacking and using weapons without proficiency.
I really like the inclusion of grid rules with Final Fantasy Tactics. I wouldn't use them myself, mostly out of a lack of equipment to do it justice, but I could see using a plain white grid and a lot of LEGO blocks or something to offer up a semblance of height.
And Love, Freaking LOVE the picture of Sabin giving the Doomtrain a German Suplex.
So overall I really like this new system, most of the changes are definitely a step up, but there's a lot of nitpicking to be had, mostly with the lexicon. I don't particularly miss the mechanical differences between races, because I was going to use my own anyway. I'll have more criticism as I read more of the book, and of course all of this is just my own opinion. You could easily argue that the nondescriptive character attributes are there to ensure players won't feel hamstrung by what their characters should and shouldn't be able to do.
Looking forward to a version with proper bookmarks, though. That, and an index in the back for locating charts and specific rules might help.
Edit: Wow, I just noticed that Dragoons can become crit-stacking GODS. 5/18 chance to crit with a Lucky Spear and Velocity. That's damn near a third of their attacks!
All the PMs I've been getting are going to leave me unable to respond here for a bit, so I'm going to try to tackle what I can.
Unlike you kind and organized folk, I didn't break down my spoiler tag. So, there.
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There were some art experiments in this release. There's just way too much white in the early pages. This is exacerbated by wide text taking up most of the page rather than being organized into neat columns.
My ability to format is pretty much nil, and a lot of the huge white gaps I was hoping to either shrink down with some reformatting, or fill with pictures - that just wasn't my priority here. Same with fixing the parchment-styled background - it's technically still there, but I guess Word thinks a subtle washout means invisible.
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I can not emphasize strongly enough (even if I do it quietly like this) how much I think those shadows should be removed, background or no.
Works for me. I'm not a big fan of them either, I just figured I'd try something new.
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Many of those status icons, the darker ones, seemed more difficult to read in the Affected By bubble because of that half-black background.
Agreed, you can barely see Fear and several of the others. That was definitely something that didn't occur to me until it was too late when trying to work those symbols out.
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I also realized for the first time today that Chapter VI does not belong. The World chapter could be its own companion manual. Sure, it offers some mechanical, monster, and racial information of the numerical sort, but the majority of it is setting information which makes an already...long document longer.
Double-edged sword. I dared to remove it once and got snapped at.
There's a lot of material that should be better off in some sort of GM's handbook. The monsters, heck, even the big section on rewarding players. Right in the middle of the book is a stupid and obscure place to drop the wealth-by-level stuff. But each time I've tried to do so, there's a chorus of voices that pipe up 'y'know, this would work much better if it was just one document!'
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I'm just so sorry... I wish I had more nice things to say... I feel terrible...
Pshaw, Story. You're too nice. Being told that the book looks like garbage is far different than being told that it plays like garbage, and I'm sure I'll have dozens of instances of both before I'm through. I couldn't take offense to anything in your huge response if I TRIED!
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Can a Samurai trigger Blaze of Glory with his one-shot duel ability?
With five destiny, sure. This would be the ultimate NO U moment.
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I registered just to add a little of my own constructive criticism on the new FFd6 version.
Thank you, Eathanu. That means quite a bit to me.
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On attributes....
While reading this, I couldn't help but repeatedly marvel at what different groups of roleplayers we must know.
There's a few systems that do an extremely good job at separating combat effectiveness from how someone envisions their character. Old white wolf comes to mind. But for the most part, I find the common tendency is to build mechanically-sound characters first, and then incorporate the attributes into roleplaying as much or as little as it suits the player - and I can't remember the last time I saw anyone roleplay physical strength.
Resolve is kind of a Willpower/Stamina deal. I could probably pick a new name for it if the common consensus was that this one sucks, but I'm kind of fond of RES even if I see where you're coming from. Likewise with MND - we've been tossing the idea of it being SPR back and forth for awhile now.
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On dead levels...
While characters get new abilities on even levels, they also tend to buy and sell most of their equipment on odd levels because of how the gil influx ebbs and flows. It's also how we manage to keep a linear increase in power for monsters in regards to health and whatnot - players are improving each level, just seesawing between equipment-based and ability-based benefits.
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The Dragoon's Jump...
Right there with ya. If I knew how to fix this to fit all the different criteria (has to be both defensive and offensive, must be usable at will and thus not better than a normal attack so every attack isn't Jump Jump Jump, must remain interesting in actual play and not just 'sitting out of combat for two rounds for big numbers') it would have been done by now. At least it's functional and useful at this point, even if it doesn't quite match up with the 'spike damage' model we've come to associate with Jump.
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I like that more classes can use shields. I would have extended that to Dark Knights and Dragoons as well (maybe Thieves, too, since they lack the ability to dual wield by default), but again, I can't speak for the balance.
We tossed around the idea of thieves, dragoons, and dark knights with bucklers a bunch too, but ultimately decided it didn't quite work conceptually. This also let us improve shields by adding an AVD bonus, so that nonevasive characters can still get missed at least once in a while at higher levels. And it makes dipping into White Mage to grab Shieldbearer for things like Thief way more viable than before, and feels rewarding.
If a character chooses to design their goals in such a way that they’ll get immediate gratification instead of the destiny spread out over the course of the campaign, this certainly has its own downsides.
I'm curious, what is supposed to be the downside of getting the six destiny from the smaller goals early on? The only possibility that comes to mind is the general 'x is burning a hole in my pocket' phenomena.
I'm curious, what is supposed to be the downside of getting the six destiny from the smaller goals early on? The only possibility that comes to mind is the general 'x is burning a hole in my pocket' phenomena.
If a character Cheats Death, they lose all of their accumulated Destiny. So, a character who got three easily achievable Goals might wind up with, say, thirteen Destiny at the time of death--and see six of it absolutely wasted. Sure, they can just make sure they never go above seven, but what if they need it?
Unrelated: I've been mentally tossing around ideas on how a more futuristic FFd6 setting would work (Assuming everyone's reasonably smart and not taking a sword to a gunfight). Other than perhaps needing new weapon types (because, of course, it's just boring if your Mage's pistol and your Fighter's handheld gatling gun are both functionally identical), some interesting things could be done with weapon properties, like modular parts. A modified barrel that immolates bullets as they exit (Firestrike), then an underbarrel Fira grenade launcher (spellburst: Fira), maybe a fitted shoulder stock for added (Precision). Some neat ideas to be had there.
My thoughts on Destiny that got very long winded very fast.
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One way I look at goals is if the player completes all their goals early in the campaign, doesn't give them much else to strive for other than their life goal. It also prevents them from getting that boost of 2 Destiny later on when it might be more sought after. Yet to each his own.
I myself have been amazed at how much detail and precision my players have put into each of their goals. It is normally one of if not the biggest part of the thought process for all of them. I haven't really pushed making them long, but each player has made it an important part of their journey for their ultimate goal. Some are simple as 'Find ancient relics' to 'Defend my Family', while some are 'Discover my origins' to 'Defeat the Dragons of the Apocalypse.' I've also seen with Life Goals becoming something not quite as grander compared to others, but they can be so rich and in depth of their personality. While one of my players has 'Establish my Family's Monster Hunting Business' another simply has 'Be reunited with my long lost childhood friend', which he reasoned as his character's village was seized as a child and he was separated from her. Thus he joined the army in chance to travel the world to find her. It was the thing that drove him most and he felt it should be his life goal.
On to the topic of the new edition of the Final Fantasy D6.
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I am very much love the new d6 and am in the process of transferring all my sheets to it (I had a lot of characters premade for my campaign). I mostly had a few annoyances, while I don't mind the name changes for the Attributes, changing Evasion to Avoidance is the only thing I don't fully grasp. While racial bonuses aren't a big thing for me, I was a bit disappointed in the grafts being removed, though I can see it not being a huge concern.
Generally, I like how many of the spells have a multiple enemy option that was seen in many other Final Fantasy games. I also adore many of the new abilities and giving each class their own innate ability (other than giving magic casting classes an innate ability allowing them to use magic).
While the disappearance of the Freelancer class didn't hit me real hard, I was disappointed to see that the 'Scholar' ability wasn't made into a general ability, though I did like the Red Mage's substitute.
I will say I love the Limit Abilities addition to the game. I find them all to be quite useful and it gives the player more options than they initially have set before them. Also the added 'Materia' system is great and already very similar to what I had initially set up in my current campaign.
Also having the Finesse +1 being the modifier for the skills is a godsend for me, as most of my players are stubborn when it comes to simple mathematics and the removal of Ratings all together completely got one of my players to excited for this new version. Also the aggressive abilities for the animal companions will finally get one of my players what he always wanted, a flying attack hawk.
Overall, I would like to say I very much love the changes I seen so far and I thank you so much for spending time to make this system as it has provided me with a wonderful system that all my players can jump onto without much trouble. Thank you very much Dust.
It's possible I'm just missing it, but I can't find any section that explains Limit Abilities.
On page 10, it says you can get up to 3 Limit Abilities and then says you get one at 5 and one at 8. On page 164 it says you get one at 5 and one at 10.
Limit Break specifically states that you get your third after getting to level 11 if you've accomplished your life goal. Are Limit Abilities the same?
I think you should change the names so that only 1 has "Limit" in the name, in order to help differentiate it.
It's possible I'm just missing it, but I can't find any section that explains Limit Abilities.
On page 10, it says you can get up to 3 Limit Abilities and then says you get one at 5 and one at 8. On page 164 it says you get one at 5 and one at 10.
Limit Break specifically states that you get your third after getting to level 11 if you've accomplished your life goal. Are Limit Abilities the same?
I think you should change the names so that only 1 has "Limit" in the name, in order to help differentiate it.
Limit Abilities are gained the same levels as Limit Breaks, 5 and 10. However, while you do get a third Limit Break (Lv11+, after life goal is completed), you do not get a third Limit Ability. You can find the Limit Abilities at the bottom of the list for each job class's abilities.
Limit Abilities are gained the same levels as Limit Breaks, 5 and 10. However, while you do get a third Limit Break (Lv11+, after life goal is completed), you do not get a third Limit Ability. You can find the Limit Abilities at the bottom of the list for each job class's abilities.
Actually, you get them at levels 3 and 8. They're described before the jobs even start, but after the crystals, I believe.
Temotai: You're talking about page 10, and it says 5 and 8 there.
Temotai & Eathanu: Both of you rather nicely illustrate my point. One of you says 10, the other says 8 (despite the idea that one comes at level 3, which I can't find any basis for) and both of you are supported by the text. Someone else could pop up and say that you do get a 3rd ability, and he wouldn't be wrong either.
Y'know, with everything else that we mucked about with, I don't think we ever came to a final decision regarding that.
For now, treat it as getting a new limit break and ability on levels 5, 8, and 11+. This might be subject to change, though. What do you think?
I think you should separate Limit Breaks and Limit Abilities. They don't seem to be related. I also still think Limit Abilities should be renamed in order to avoid confusion.
Roughly, I'd say something like this:
Limit Break at level 4
Limit Break at level 8
Limit Break at level 12+
Limit Ability at level 5
Limit Ability at level 10
I'd say keep it at two Limit Abilities. If everyone gets three, then every member of the same class eventually has all the same abilities; keeping it at two per person makes the choices matter more. Besides, everyone is going to choose their two favorite Limit Abilities first, meaning that the last Limit Ability gained will be the one they like least.
I think you should separate Limit Breaks and Limit Abilities. They don't seem to be related. I also still think Limit Abilities should be renamed in order to avoid confusion.
Roughly, I'd say something like this:
Limit Break at level 4
Limit Break at level 8
Limit Break at level 12+
Limit Ability at level 5
Limit Ability at level 10
I'd say keep it at two Limit Abilities. If everyone gets three, then every member of the same class eventually has all the same abilities; keeping it at two per person makes the choices matter more. Besides, everyone is going to choose their two favorite Limit Abilities first, meaning that the last Limit Ability gained will be the one they like least.
I see them as being related in the sense that they do sort of usher in this RP system's equivalents to the Paragon and Epic tiers of 4E D&D. At first I did think that Limit Abilities should be staggered some, but they, along with Limit Breaks, add a significant increase in character power at their respective levels.
Also, as far as I'm concerned, the charts are king; Inline text is supplementary =P
I think you should separate Limit Breaks and Limit Abilities. They don't seem to be related. I also still think Limit Abilities should be renamed in order to avoid confusion.
I'm going to have to agree with this. It's unnecessarily confusing, and every single person in my group who read through the rules had to be reassured that Limit Breaks hadn't been replaced or made mutually exclusive with these abilities. Perhaps "High Abilities" would be better?
Pun-Pun is purely a thought exercise, made to go "haha, look at this series of poorly finished but easily properly understood rules which can be abused for the purpose of laughter." It is the D&D equivalent of being endowed like a tribal fertility statue, or 90's Madonna outfits - scary, striking, suggestive, and completely nonfunctional.
Temotai: You're talking about page 10, and it says 5 and 8 there.
Temotai & Eathanu: Both of you rather nicely illustrate my point. One of you says 10, the other says 8 (despite the idea that one comes at level 3, which I can't find any basis for) and both of you are supported by the text. Someone else could pop up and say that you do get a 3rd ability, and he wouldn't be wrong either.
I've been tracking this thread since December, and done plenty of playtesting of the old system and homebrewing fixes that would suit the group I play with, but now that the new system is out...
Time to playtest more and do it all over again. Yay!
So far my main irk is the consolidation of stats (simply because I don't like both attack and spell damage governed by one stat), but I do like the way max skill ranks are handled now, and will be blending the two systems for my group when we start and I've had the chance to test it more.
The new equipment abilities are nice.
I think it's a little weird that someone with 20 strength/power can't carry any more stuff than someone with 10, but I also tend to give my players more "sell me" loot than straight money, so they need the extra space to store it. For the first system, I just houseruled that you had 10 slots for having 3 strength, and got one more for every two points of strength you had over that. It worked well, and scaled nicely. I don't know how well this would work in the new system, but I'm going to run tests and figure it out from there. I could give my players straight gold, but I like making them haggle for money.
That's as far as I've gotten, thanks to work and going out of town for the weekend, but it sounds like the rest of the book is fantastic. Looking forward to reading the rest it.
Last edited by Sage of Legaia : 03-26-2012 at 09:06 PM.
Because Id thought it would be fun, I started working on a materia system for weapons. Kinda odd, a little fun though. Will post when I think It's pretty good.
Chappu... I...would like to suggest that a journal or recount of some kind be made about your experiences with Final Fantasy D6. They might make for very interesting reading. But I also think that adding the full text of observations into this thread, even in Spoiler Tags, might clutter the thread. It could be more neat and organized to make your own thread about your Final Fantasy D6 observations.
It...would also mean that your observations were not lost or difficult to find since they would be in their own thread rather than...submerged into the posts of this one.
...just a suggestion for you. I don't mean any harm by it.
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Re: Final Fantasy d6 (Complete System)
TALKY-MAN MAKE THOG LAUGH.
