Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XIV

true_shinken · 11-03-2010, 04:28 AM

Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef XIV. Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".

Contestants: You will need to present your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Menu: For most challenges, the "special ingredient" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.

32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.

Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em.

Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 11:59pm CUT on Wednesday, November 10th 2010 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, true_shinken. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying.

Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.

Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points.

I am going to have to ask the contestants to PM me about any disagreement with the judges. Under no circumstances is a contestant to defend themselves inside the thread, since it breaks anonymity.

Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.

Spoiler

NAME OF ENTRY

Level	Class	Base Attack<br>Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Skills	Feats	Class Features
1st	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
2nd	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
3rd	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
4th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
5th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
6th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
7th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
8th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
9th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
10th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
11th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
12th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
13th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
14th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
15th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
16th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
17th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
18th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
19th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
20th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities

Code

Spoiler

For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)

Spoiler

For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.

Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners.

So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for about 5 judges and as many contestants as feel like playing!

This week's special ingredient is:
Complete Arcane's Seeker of the Song

Allez optimiser!

Judges
Amphetryon
Grynning
WinWin
Vorpal Tribble

Contestants
darbythegambler
Ealstan
TerrickTerran
OMGPonies
Ozymandias9
The Gilded Duke
BobVosh
Heliomance
gbprime

Past Competitions

Iron Chef I: Entropomancer
Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent
Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage
Iron Chef IV: Stonelord
Iron Chef V: War Chanter
Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks
Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept
Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist
Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord
Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar
Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo
Iron Chef XII: War Mind
Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

darbythegambler · 11-03-2010, 05:04 AM

i love this PrC! i'm in

Amphetryon · 11-03-2010, 06:47 AM

I'll sign on as a judge for this one.

My criteria:

Spoiler

EDIT: This is strictly a personal preference, but to me, a build that relies on minions, undead hordes, robot armies, and so forth is working against the spirit of the 'no Leadership' clause, and may well see deductions as a result.

true_shinken · 11-03-2010, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

I'll sign on as a judge for this one.

My criteria:

Spoiler

Man I really liked your judging criterea. Might set up a new standard for myself when I go back to judging.

Ealstan · 11-03-2010, 09:22 AM

Count me in to compete!

TerrickTerran · 11-03-2010, 10:13 AM

I'll attempt if I can figure out the right build.

Grynning · 11-03-2010, 10:28 AM

I'll judge again.

Criteria in the spoiler.

Spoiler

WinWin · 11-03-2010, 10:39 AM

I'll judge if required.

My criteria is a mystery, even to me.

I am looking for something that is suitable for play and basing my scoring on that simple criterion. More than that, I can not say.

The Vorpal Tribble · 11-03-2010, 11:01 AM

Ok, so Combine Songs. Any two songs you know, put them together, get benefits. That makes sense. However, do you have to use to two uses of your bardic music or one?

Subvocalize, as swift action, can start a new song, if only one is being sung. Thus won't work with the above, correct? Thus it is only useful if you want to keep one 'music slot' open for whatever might come your way.

Pechvarry · 11-03-2010, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

EDIT: This is strictly a personal preference, but to me, a build that relies on minions, undead hordes, robot armies, and so forth is working against the spirit of the 'no Leadership' clause, and may well see deductions as a result.

This brings up another question: what about material that requires Leadership as a prereq (admittedly very little in 3.5)? Perhaps use Wild Cohort as a stand-in feat or something?

EDIT: more general question: I'd assume the bardic music requirement for entry into the class requires an actual listed class feature labeled "bardic music" and not possession of a single type? For example, the 1d20 different prestige classes that give Inspire Courage only?

The Vorpal Tribble · 11-03-2010, 11:15 AM

In regard to that, Amphetryon, that's a big complaint I had with Sally. Artificers are made to make things. They get construct followers as a class ability. Does this mean the entire class has a stigma attached? To not use its strengths just isn't right.

Amphetryon · 11-03-2010, 11:24 AM

The key part of the phrase in my edited criteria is 'RELIES ON.' A build whose perceived primary power source and shtick is through some form of minionmancery goes against my understanding of the spirit of the contest rules.

WinWin · 11-03-2010, 11:27 AM

oh ok...Spellstiched awakened undead it is.

Even better. Why don't people just take leadership for a Bard competition? Bards have class features that require other characters, it just would not be fair to deny them followers to buff.

Amphetryon · 11-03-2010, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WinWin

oh ok...Spellstiched awakened undead it is.

Even better. Why don't people just take leadership for a Bard competition? Bards have class features that require other characters, it just would not be fair to deny them followers to buff.

I can't tell which post this is a response to...

OMG PONIES · 11-03-2010, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by true_shinken

Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef XIII.

May want to fix that ole' copy-pasta. As for VT's questions:

Combine Songs: It specifically states that you choose "two music abilities and [activate] both." Though you only use one action, I'm seeing two uses of your music.
Subvocalize: This does not work alongside Combine Songs, as it says, "A seeker can use this ability only if he already has one (and only one) bardic music or seeker music ability already active." The way it interacts with combine songs follows, stating that you can begin a song, add to it via subvocalize, and then sustain both with one standard action per round.

I have my own concerns about the build, namely in terms of variety. Keep in mind the restriction facing Ex-Seekers of the Song

. Also, though it is not listed in the Requirements section, the introduction on page 56 contains the following text:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Complete Arcane, page 56

Every seeker of the song must have at least one bard level...

Are we counting that as a requirement?

P.S. In as a contestant, though that may change to judge.

true_shinken · 11-03-2010, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WinWin

oh ok...Spellstiched awakened undead it is.

Even better. Why don't people just take leadership for a Bard competition? Bards have class features that require other characters, it just would not be fair to deny them followers to buff.

Leadership is banned from Iron Chef.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OMG PONIES

May want to fix that ole' copy-pasta.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OMG PONIES

I have my own concerns about the build, namely in terms of variety. Keep in mind the restriction facing Ex-Seekers of the Song

.

I hope you'll be surprised with variety, dude.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OMG PONIES

Are we counting that as a requirement?

No, it's in the flavour text, so it doesn't count. Of course some judge might decide to penalize you in elegance, but I wouldn't.

The Vorpal Tribble · 11-03-2010, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by true_shinken

Leadership is banned from Iron Chef.

My sarcasm-sense tells me it was a mocking post. Not that it applied. Bards don't make followers. Artificers gain them as a class feature.

Anyways, nothing is jumping out at me to use here, but we'll see what comes to mind.

true_shinken · 11-03-2010, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble

My sarcasm-sense tells me it was a mocking post. Not that it applied. Bards don't make followers. Artificers gain them as a class feature.

I'll have to disagree here, VT. Remember our note about known cheese up there in the first post? Well, having 20 actions a round is known cheese, isn't it? It does make the game less fun for everyone else when you take 30 minutes a turn for your character alone. That does not sound elegant at all.
Also, Artificers are not forced to create constructs (in the same way not all level one characters with maxed Knowledges are not forced to summon Pazuzu). In fact, they are quite powerful without them.

The Vorpal Tribble · 11-03-2010, 01:17 PM

That's why I specified in the text he can make constructs for everyone else if they will donate a pint of blood.

Everyone gets two homomnuculus, including the artificer himself. The dragon golem isn't gotten until 18th level. The nimblewrights are out and about the city gathering intel, not in the fight.

Ever if they were ALL there, he had a total of 8 homonuculus, 2 nimbles, and a golem. 11 constructs, not 20. Take out nimbles, that's 9. Take out half the others because they are meant to be scouts, that's down to 5.

So for Sally alone, he has three fighting constructs by 18th level. The rest have their own. It is party friendly.

And no, he doesn't have to make them and is powerful without them. But then, there were the complaints of WBLmancy. Well, items are his thing. Take them away, his golems away, an artificer is beginning to have troubles.

I don't want to sidetrack from the current contest however. Y'all wanna take this to a thread all its own feel free.

true_shinken · 11-03-2010, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble

I don't want to sidetrack from the current contest however. Y'all wanna take this to a thread all its own feel free.

OK, VT, just a last statement. WBL is part of the rules as well, so if you mess with it, you should expect consequences as well.
Do notice you almost won, regardless of judges penalizing flaws you admit you had.

The Vorpal Tribble · 11-03-2010, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by true_shinken

Do notice you almost won, regardless of judges penalizing flaws you admit you had.

Losing I don't mind, and there were some awesome entries that could well have surpassed it. It's the reasoning that irked me.

true_shinken · 11-03-2010, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Vorpal Tribble

Losing I don't mind, and there were some awesome entries that could well have surpassed it. It's the reasoning that irked me.

Oh, I understand. I guess should just agree to disagree here, like gentlemen, then. ^^

Grynning · 11-03-2010, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OMG PONIES

Also, though it is not listed in the Requirements section, the introduction on page 56 contains the following text:

Originally Posted by Complete Arcane, page 56
Every seeker of the song must have at least one bard level...

Are we counting that as a requirement?

I personally would not. The intro text to several PrC's says something like "entrants to this class must have a Barbarian level because this requires rage" because the writer/editor forgot there are other ways to get rage. I think the SotS text is like that. If you can get Bardic music from somewhere else (though there aren't many ways), I'd consider that legal entry into the class.

Note: I would NOT consider an ability that replicates a single bard song or that functions similarly to count as bardic music (i.e. you take a class that just gives "inspire courage").

true_shinken · 11-03-2010, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grynning

I personally would not. The intro text to several PrC's says something like "entrants to this class must have a Barbarian level because this requires rage" because the writer/editor forgot there are other ways to get rage. I think the SotS text is like that. If you can get Bardic music from somewhere else (though there aren't many ways), I'd consider that legal entry into the class.

I think we can safely rule it's not a requirement. It's not on the requirement field and it's specifically listed as a 'bad' requirement in the DMG. Also, by extension of this rule we couldn't have Duskblade/Dragon Disciple or Lurk/Shadowdancer for example and I've never seen anyone state it can't be done.

Grynning · 11-03-2010, 01:48 PM

Man this is a weird class...but one thing is really bugging me - Note of Solitude.

"Will saving throw (DC 10 + the seeker's ranks in the Perform skill). Creatures affected by by this ability get a bonus on this saving throw equal to their Hit Dice."

Am I wrong in thinking that the bold clause above makes this capstone less than freaking useless? It seems like a screw-up of Truenamer level proportions. As far as I can tell, the vast majority of CR-appropriate monsters would only fail this save on a 1.

Edit: Also, just noticed this - the ability "Note of Solitude" isn't on the class table, and instead "Hymn of Revealing" is listed, which isn't in the class text. Has this class been errata'ed?

Amphetryon · 11-03-2010, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grynning

Man this is a weird class...but one thing is really bugging me - Note of Solitude.

"Will saving throw (DC 10 + the seeker's ranks in the Perform skill). Creatures affected by by this ability get a bonus on this saving throw equal to their Hit Dice."

Am I wrong in thinking that the bold clause above makes this capstone less than freaking useless? It seems like a screw-up of Truenamer level proportions.

Edit: Also, just noticed this - the ability "Note of Solitude" isn't on the class table, and instead "Hymn of Revealing" is listed, which isn't in the class text. Has this class been errata'ed?

Complete Arcane's Errata (available online from wotc) does not include anything for Seeker of the Song. We're left with 'Text Trumps Table', so the Hymn of Revealing would appear to be a relic of an early version.

Grynning · 11-03-2010, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

Complete Arcane's Errata (available online from wotc) does not include anything for Seeker of the Song. We're left with 'Text Trumps Table', so the Hymn of Revealing would appear to be a relic of an early version.

Yeah, I checked the errata myself a few min ago. I guess the rather unfortunate Note of Solitude is the correct capstone. It's basically a 60 foot AoE Dismissal, it just only has a 5% chance of working on pretty much any given creature.

true_shinken · 11-03-2010, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grynning

Yeah, I checked the errata myself a few min ago. I guess the rather unfortunate Note of Solitude is the correct capstone. It's basically a 60 foot AoE Dismissal, it just only has a 5% chance of working on pretty much any given creature.

~~Skill checks are very easy to optimize. Perform's record is about +180, I believe.~~
Nevermind, it's ranks and not check. Yeah, sounds awful.

Ozymandias9 · 11-03-2010, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grynning

Yeah, I checked the errata myself a few min ago. I guess the rather unfortunate Note of Solitude is the correct capstone. It's basically a 60 foot AoE Dismissal, it just only has a 5% chance of working on pretty much any given creature.

Yeah, excluding for the moment the need to get rid of a horde of extra-planar mooks, I can think of one and only one use for the capstone. And it's kinda cheesy. I'll pass on using it, but it will be interesting to see what happens if someone else does.

Anyhow, I'll compete for this one.

kestrel404 · 11-03-2010, 02:43 PM

I'm competing. I've already got half my build done - I thought about it for five minutes and knew exactly where I wanted to go - in exactly the opposite direction as the class designers intended.