More Dinosaurs than Isla Nublar (okay, not really, PEACH)

[Bhu]

PrC's are good

[LOTRfan]

Do you think the Pterosaur companion is overpowered, Bhu?

[Bhu]

No, Im good with it. I actually think compared to some PrC's it could be slightly more powerful.

[absolmorph]

Question: how many squares does a speed of "+5/+8" allow you to move through?

The Psionic Protoceratops has a bit of a mix-up

[flabort]

lol, that's a bit of a mistake thar. Perhaps it's got an 8 foot flying speed ?

To chip in my opinion alongside Bhu's, It does seem underpowered compared to a certain other 'holy' class's mount, but then again, only up to third level. Great Fly-by Attack seems a little iffy.
It's a bit of a parabolic power curve, I'd say. But, since the mount doesn't stack with anything, that means that the strong bonus feat is balanced down, so...
I dunno.

[LOTRfan]

Originally Posted by absolmorph

Question: how many squares does a speed of "+5/+8" allow you to move through?

The Psionic Protoceratops has a bit of a mix-up

Umm....

Originally Posted by LOTRfan

Speed: 30 ft.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Yeah, lets go with that...

Flabort, if you have any ideas on how to make the Pterosaur companion better, I'd love to hear them. I want to keep this as balanced as possible.

[flabort]

Not really, no. Sorry, but...
Comparing it to the paladin's mount, which is received at around the same time (one level off), the paladin's is stronger for the first two levels at which there is a mount. The third level of mount ownership, the paladin's still has higher HD & AC, and devotion is just a flat bonus, compared to share spells and such, which the paladin's has had for three levels or so.
The paladin's mount then takes a jump in power, and while the dactyl rider's mount now has stats equal to the paladin's the level before, and while it now has that feat I though was questionable (AND NO LONGER DO), the paladin's now has improved speed, as well, not to mention has passed the dactyl's HD and AC again.
And then fifth level doesn't give anything that the paladin's mount didn't already have.

The above is offset by the fact that a dactyl can fly, and while a paladin gets other class features, the dactyl rider gets lots of bonus feats. Not enough, but lots.

What I'd do after considering this, is boost the AC progression higher, move evasion to first, give improved evasion 3 levels earlier (At 2nd), and give them another bonus at fifth. And give a bonus feat to the rider on all levels. For a start. I'd then compare power again.

But I'm not very good at balance. Take my advice with a grain of salt.

[LOTRfan]

Alright, made several major changes. Would upping the maneuverability by one be considered a good enough bonus? Or should it be something else?

[flabort]

Seems good to me. Just get another ability for the mount at fifth, and see what the other's think. I'm not the only one critiquing, and not the best.

[LOTRfan]

How about (perfect) maneuverability and the hover bonus feat?

[flabort]

Doesn't perfect maneuverability already grant hovering, meaning you don't need the feat? And that would push it over the edge.
How about they gain the hover feat, or if they already have it gain perfect maneuverability?
Anyone else have input? Bhu? I don't want to be the only one giving LOTRfan input .

[LOTRfan]

Currently, you are the only one online. I'll add it in for now, and hopefully someone will post if they have a problem with it.

[Dire Moose]

Amargasaurus was pretty small for a sauropod. As the entire animal was 33 feet long (and that includes the entire tail) Gargantuan is way too big. Huge might work for a 33-foot animal, but as most of that length is made up of tail, I personally consider it Large. Advancement to Huge wouild occur with very few additional Hit Dice, though.

[LOTRfan]

Originally Posted by Dire Moose

Amargasaurus was pretty small for a sauropod. As the entire animal was 33 feet long (and that includes the entire tail) Gargantuan is way too big. Huge might work for a 33-foot animal, but as most of that length is made up of tail, I personally consider it Large. Advancement to Huge wouild occur with very few additional Hit Dice, though.

Okay. I'll make modifications right now. Any opinion on the PrC?

[Dire Moose]

And one more thing: (sorry, but I'm a paleontologist)

There are a lot of dinosaurs that are treated like they are way bigger than life. Allosaurus was, on average, between 25 and 30 feet long, but most of the popular books claim it as 30-40 feet. Saurophaganax, it's larger cousin, was that size. While a 33-foot Allosaurus has been found and some isolated bones may represent larger invividuals, those are very rare exceptions to the 25-30 foot average.

Stegosaurus*, too, is often listed as 29 feet long, but was mostly 20-25 feet long and would be the size of a large rhino/small elephant, which would blur the Large/Huge boundary. All of the skeletons I've seen were more along the lines of Large, though.

And this has translated over to D&D, if you will recall the Monster Manual II's Allosaurus which was listed as Huge in accordance with the oft-referenced "30 to 40 feet". Though the authors were unaware of this, that entry is actually describing a Saurophaganax. The real Allosaurus was Large (with the 33-foot outlier representing an individual with advanced hit dice).

Now that I've said that, though, I feel I owe it to you to post a homebrewed Allosaurus and Stegosaurus, which I will be creating over the next week.

*It should be noted that Stegosaurus is the largest known stegosaur, so this also affects the Tuojiangosaurus entry.

[LOTRfan]

Originally Posted by Dire Moose

And one more thing: (sorry, but I'm a paleontologist)

There are a lot of dinosaurs that are treated like they are way bigger than life. Allosaurus was, on average, between 25 and 30 feet long, but most of the popular books claim it as 30-40 feet. Saurophaganax, it's larger cousin, was that size. While a 33-foot Allosaurus has been found and some isolated bones may represent larger invividuals, those are very rare exceptions to the 25-30 foot average.

Stegosaurus*, too, is often listed as 29 feet long, but was mostly 20-25 feet long and would be the size of a large rhino/small elephant, which would blur the Large/Huge boundary. All of the skeletons I've seen were more along the lines of Large, though.

And this has translated over to D&D, if you will recall the Monster Manual II's Allosaurus which was listed as Huge in accordance with the oft-referenced "30 to 40 feet". Though the authors were unaware of this, that entry is actually describing a Saurophaganax. The real Allosaurus was Large (with the 33-foot outlier representing an individual with advanced hit dice).

Now that I've said that, though, I feel I owe it to you to post a homebrewed Allosaurus and Stegosaurus, which I will be creating over the next week.

*It should be noted that Stegosaurus is the largest known stegosaur, so this also affects the Tuojiangosaurus entry.

No reason to apologize. The more homebrews the merrier, and it is better if they are as identical to their real life counterparts as possible. The main reason I started this project was to research dinosaurs, anyway.

What does annoy me about the Monster Manual II, however, is that the writers describe the Spinosaurus as a super predator, whereas they supposedly ate mostly fish. Someone was watching a little too much Jurassic Park... That's just fluff, though.

[LOTRfan]

Fixed the math for both the Amargasaurus and the Tuojiangosaurus to fit their new size.

[Bhu]

Flabort is right, Perfect maneuverability grants hover.

[hamishspence]

Originally Posted by Dire Moose

And one more thing: (sorry, but I'm a paleontologist)

There are a lot of dinosaurs that are treated like they are way bigger than life. Allosaurus was, on average, between 25 and 30 feet long, but most of the popular books claim it as 30-40 feet. Saurophaganax, it's larger cousin, was that size. While a 33-foot Allosaurus has been found and some isolated bones may represent larger invividuals, those are very rare exceptions to the 25-30 foot average.

Stegosaurus*, too, is often listed as 29 feet long, but was mostly 20-25 feet long and would be the size of a large rhino/small elephant, which would blur the Large/Huge boundary. All of the skeletons I've seen were more along the lines of Large, though.

And this has translated over to D&D, if you will recall the Monster Manual II's Allosaurus which was listed as Huge in accordance with the oft-referenced "30 to 40 feet". Though the authors were unaware of this, that entry is actually describing a Saurophaganax. The real Allosaurus was Large (with the 33-foot outlier representing an individual with advanced hit dice).

Now that I've said that, though, I feel I owe it to you to post a homebrewed Allosaurus and Stegosaurus, which I will be creating over the next week.

*It should be noted that Stegosaurus is the largest known stegosaur, so this also affects the Tuojiangosaurus entry.

Size isn't just a factor of nose to tail length- it's also a factor of weight, and Reach.

Huge creatures start at 2 tons and 16 ft tall (or 16 ft from nose to base of tail, if quadrupedal).

So, average adult Stegosaurus might be better as Huge than Large (so, for that matter, would the larger species of rhino- the D&D Large rhino may represent a smaller species.

Allosaurus would probably straddle the Large/Huge borderline, true, depending on what estimates are used for its weight.

One possible solution- use generic names "Large allosauroid" "Huge allosauroid" etc and attach species names afterward.

Since D&D sizes are pretty granular, you could include "in-between" sizes based on Reach (smaller Huge creatures could have 10 ft Reach, larger ones 15 ft Reach, but all have 15 ft Space).

[Dire Moose]

Allosaurus only weighed about a ton, and while two tons is possible for large individuals the weight is pretty consistent with a Large animal. 16 feet tall is actually taller than Tyrannosaurus would be at the hips, so by all measurements an average adult Allosaurus would be Large.

Stegosaurus is not 16 feet tall by any means, and the tail seems to take up half its total length, so it would need to be 32 feet long to qualify as Huge. The weight estimates range from 3 to 5.5 tons, though, so by mass it would be Huge.

[LOTRfan]

Currently, I am working on the Survivor of the Sauric Isles prestige class. Its a little odd, as the BAB and saves (along with skill points and HD) are selected by the player at first level. The player will choose one of two survival tactics, which will define these aspects of the class. In a way, its like a two in one PrC (but you can only choose one, so I guess its more like too classes in one chassis).

[flabort]

Hmm. Seems like it's going to be pretty interesting. Already looking forward to the result (As if I wasn't already)

[hamishspence]

Originally Posted by Dire Moose

Allosaurus only weighed about a ton, and while two tons is possible for large individuals the weight is pretty consistent with a Large animal. 16 feet tall is actually taller than Tyrannosaurus would be at the hips, so by all measurements an average adult Allosaurus would be Large.

Stegosaurus is not 16 feet tall by any means, and the tail seems to take up half its total length, so it would need to be 32 feet long to qualify as Huge. The weight estimates range from 3 to 5.5 tons, though, so by mass it would be Huge.

Stegosaurus is not a biped- it's a quadruped- which don't have a height limit- only a "length to base of tail" limit.

(also, it's tail looks a bit shorter than the rest of its body, to me).

And for Huge creatures- that's 16 ft long minimum.

As for theropods like Allosaurus, they tend to have a very horizontal posture- so leg length might be a better guideline, than "height the creature can raise its head to".

The smallest Medium bipedal creatures will be 4 ft tall- which corresponds to a leg length of around 2 ft.
For Large creatures, this will be 8 ft tall- leg length around 4 ft.
For Huge creatures, this will be 16 ft tall- leg length around 8 ft.

I'd agree that subadult Allosaurus, and maybe smaller adult Allosaurus, would be better as Large than Huge- but, if the bones originally labelled Epanterias, are in fact typical of fully grown members of the largest Allosaurus species(rather than freakishly large individuals) it might be, that at least one Allosaurus species, would have a basic size of Huge, rather than having to be advanced in size.

[LOTRfan]

Added basic fluff to the Survivor PrC. I'll add the actual mechanics tomorrow.

[Dire Moose]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

Stegosaurus is not a biped- it's a quadruped- which don't have a height limit- only a "length to base of tail" limit.

(also, it's tail looks a bit shorter than the rest of its body, to me).

And for Huge creatures- that's 16 ft long minimum.

As for theropods like Allosaurus, they tend to have a very horizontal posture- so leg length might be a better guideline, than "height the creature can raise its head to".

The smallest Medium bipedal creatures will be 4 ft tall- which corresponds to a leg length of around 2 ft.
For Large creatures, this will be 8 ft tall- leg length around 4 ft.
For Huge creatures, this will be 16 ft tall- leg length around 8 ft.

I'd agree that subadult Allosaurus, and maybe smaller adult Allosaurus, would be better as Large than Huge- but, if the bones originally labelled Epanterias, are in fact typical of fully grown members of the largest Allosaurus species(rather than freakishly large individuals) it might be, that at least one Allosaurus species, would have a basic size of Huge, rather than having to be advanced in size.

Yes, Saurophaganax, Epanterias, the 33-foot skeleton, a very incomplete 36-foot specimen that could be either Allosaurus or Saurophaganax, and a number of other isolated bones are from Huge animals. There are also plenty of Medium-sized juveniles present. It would be more reasonable to assume the most common size range (Large) represents a typical adult in my opinion.

And if you want a Huge allosaur, there's already Saurophaganax.

As for Stegosaurus, the tail is actually a little less than half its length, so a 24-28 foot Stegosaurus would indeed be Huge. An 18-23 foot one wouldn't. Given its weight, though, Stegosaurus probably does qualify as Huge but just barely. Other stegosaurs, though, would be Large or smaller.

[hamishspence]

One way of handling it would be to leave the names blank, and simply have "Large allosaur" "Huge allosaur" etc.

Using a "basic chassis" with modifications for different groups might work as well.

I.E. for allosauroids, the basic statline could have a couple of possible modifications.

Increased bite damage, reduced claw damage- for carcharodontosaurids.

Increased claw damage, increased speed- for megaraptorans.

Given how big size ranges are (a 20 ft dinosaur and a 30 ft dinosaur both possibly qualifying as Large) then, instead of following the traditional "Bipedal creatures have long Reach, quadrupedal creatures have short Reach"- one could have different Reach values within a size category.

So, a 20 ft Large dinosaur could have a 5 ft Reach, and a 30 ft Large dinosaur, could have a 10 ft Reach.

[LOTRfan]

Hello, sorry its been a while since an update. Just so you guys know that I'm doing something, I am currently working on the Bezoars, a sample NPC for the Dactyl Rider (and a small mercenary organization to go along with it), and I am making the final additions to the Survivor of the Sauric Isles prestige class. Afterwards, I intend to create an NPC for the Survivor prestige class and the two pterosaurs. I think that I may be ending this project after that, as I am grateful it has gone on as long as it has so far.

[Bhu]

aww I was hopin' you'd keep goin'

[LOTRfan]

If you have any more requests, I'd be happy to continue, but otherwise, I have accomplished twice my goal at this point.

So, if you want any more, feel free to ask. It'll keep the project going.

[flabort]

Anything to keep the project going .
Maybe make a "construct-o-'saur"?
Some sort of golem that's made to look like, say, any old generic 'tops, 'rex, or 'dayctyl, so three varieties, made by... whoever, in order to defend themselves from the real dinos.
Or maybe hybrid 'saurs. Pteradectri'itops? Tyranodactyl? Pterasaurus Rex?