Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XV

[SurlySeraph]

I'm potentially in as a competitor. Hope my possibly-original idea hasn't already been thought of.

[Grynning]

Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar

Wow, that many competitors!? Drunken Master sure seems to be popular.

Hmm...I'd think about being a judge, but I'd go with hiding my criteria. Mostly because I want people to surprise me, not please me. Also, it would make people think about interesting stuff without the worry of choosing one thing or another.

However, I'll probably be forced to unleash my criteria one way or another. I'd also be far too verbose as a judge, though that would allow a very stringent analysis of each build and how the fluff supports or bolsters the idea; look it at the full package. I find that, by looking at the judges' criteria, stuff gets lost: I don't recall Iron Chef (the actual Iron Chef TV programs, both in Japan and in America) judges ever reveal their criteria, other than "surprise me" and "this better taste good".

So...I'll let the organizers and the other judges decide whether I can be a mystery judge or if I'll be forced to show my criteria so that people attempt to "amuse" me. I'd rather see a risqué build, done with an idea in mind, rather than something to appease the competition. But then again, I'm not entirely free of guilt in trying to do that, so...

I didn't used to post criteria, but since the contest started allowing disputes of scores (usually on rules grounds) it's a good idea to let people know up front what will fly and what won't. Criteria aren't strictly enforced or anything, but for the competitors it's good to know if you are going to dock in elegance because you dislike Unearthed Arcana or hit them in power if they are a basic core melee fighter (those are JUST EXAMPLES guys, not my actual criteria, you can read it above).

[true_shinken]

Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar

So...I'll let the organizers and the other judges decide whether I can be a mystery judge or if I'll be forced to show my criteria so that people attempt to "amuse" me. I'd rather see a risqué build, done with an idea in mind, rather than something to appease the competition. But then again, I'm not entirely free of guilt in trying to do that, so...

What Grynning said. Also, I believe I only had my criteria posted once while I was judging. So I believe you could, yes, be a 'mystery judge'.

[Adumbration]

I don't know if it's just me, but I sometimes have trouble following the code columns in the table. So I made a slight modification to it - use it if you like.

Spoiler

NAME OF ENTRY

Level	Class	Base Attack<br>Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Skills	Feats	Class Features
1st	New Class Level	+BaB	+Fort	+Ref	+Will	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
2nd	New Class Level	+BaB	+Fort	+Ref	+Will	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
3rd	New Class Level	+BaB	+Fort	+Ref	+Will	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
4th	New Class Level	+BaB	+Fort	+Ref	+Will	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
5th	New Class Level	+BaB	+Fort	+Ref	+Will	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
6th	New Class Level	+BaB	+Fort	+Ref	+Will	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
7th	New Class Level	+BaB	+Fort	+Ref	+Will	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
8th	New Class Level	+BaB	+Fort	+Ref	+Will	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
9th	New Class Level	+BaB	+Fort	+Ref	+Will	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
10th	New Class Level	+BaB	+Fort	+Ref	+Will	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
11th	New Class Level	+BaB	+Fort	+Ref	+Will	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
12th	New Class Level	+BaB	+Fort	+Ref	+Will	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
13th	New Class Level	+BaB	+Fort	+Ref	+Will	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
14th	New Class Level	+BaB	+Fort	+Ref	+Will	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
15th	New Class Level	+BaB	+Fort	+Ref	+Will	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
16th	New Class Level	+BaB	+Fort	+Ref	+Will	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
17th	New Class Level	+BaB	+Fort	+Ref	+Will	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
18th	New Class Level	+BaB	+Fort	+Ref	+Will	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
19th	New Class Level	+BaB	+Fort	+Ref	+Will	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities
20th	New Class Level	+BaB	+Fort	+Ref	+Will	Skills	New Feats	New Class Abilities

[true_shinken]

Hm, I do share your concerns. Adumbration. Filling the tables is a major pain and sometimes it leads to mistakes. We need the organization, though.
I like Adumbration's table, I believe it could be an alternative to teh one we use... but having different tables might confuse judges and contestants alike. So I really dunno.

[Adumbration]

Originally Posted by true_shinken

Hm, I do share your concerns. Adumbration. Filling the tables is a major pain and sometimes it leads to mistakes. We need the organization, though.
I like Adumbration's table, I believe it could be an alternative to teh one we use... but having different tables might confuse judges and contestants alike. So I really dunno.

I just switched +x with relevant sections, for my own use. Figured might as well post it here in case someone else has similar problems.

[Urpriest]

The Drunken Master's Improved Improvised weapons ability allows him to use long weapons as reach weapons according to their length. Complete Warrior's section on Improvised Weapons states that long weapons have 10 foot reach and must be used two-handed. Does the Drunken Master's ability then mean:

1. Drunken Masters, unlike other improvised weapon users, can use long weapons with greater than 10 foot reach.

2. Drunken Masters, unlike other improvised weapon users, can use long weapons without using them two-handed.

3. Both.

or 4. Neither?

[Amphetryon]

Originally Posted by Urpriest

The Drunken Master's Improved Improvised weapons ability allows him to use long weapons as reach weapons according to their length. Complete Warrior's section on Improvised Weapons states that long weapons have 10 foot reach and must be used two-handed. Does the Drunken Master's ability then mean:

1. Drunken Masters, unlike other improvised weapon users, can use long weapons with greater than 10 foot reach.

2. Drunken Masters, unlike other improvised weapon users, can use long weapons without using them two-handed.

3. Both.

or 4. Neither?

Good question. My reading of it thus far has been 4. Neither, but I'm interested in the official ruling for the contest.

[Grynning]

I would interpret it to mean that "reach weapons according to the their length" means if the weapons are long enough, they are reach weapons, which double your natural reach. There are no provisions in the rules for melee weapons with a longer reach except the whip and whip dagger, which really work more like ranged weapons.

As for using them one handed - I would say there are some things you could use as an improvised whip, but they would follow the rules for a whip, provoking AoO's and whatnot. Any larger items (like the ladder mentioned as an example) would require two hands.

In other words, use common sense.

Edit: Just noticed something else - the text says "improvised weapons with many protrusions (such as chairs) provide a +2 bonus on opponents' disarm attempts." That seems like an editing mistake as it's supposed to be an "improvement" and the other weapons in the game with "protrusions" like the sai provide a bonus on YOUR disarm attempts. If anyone for whatever reason is going with a disarm focused build, I will happily go with the probable RAI on this (that it's supposed to give you the bonus, not the bad guy).

[Urpriest]

Originally Posted by Grynning

I would interpret it to mean that "reach weapons according to the their length" means if the weapons are long enough, they are reach weapons, which double your natural reach. There are no provisions in the rules for melee weapons with a longer reach except the whip and whip dagger, which really work more like ranged weapons.

As for using them one handed - I would say there are some things you could use as an improvised whip, but they would follow the rules for a whip, provoking AoO's and whatnot. Any larger items (like the ladder mentioned as an example) would require two hands.

In other words, use common sense.

The one reason I don't think that "use common sense" is a useful guide here is that the base rules are already supposed to be based on common sense. Either you say that Drunken Master abilities use common sense but all other improvised weapon users don't (so the difference would be something like Drunken Masters using whiplike objects while others can't), or the normal rules are based on a commonsense idea of what you can do with an object and Drunken Masters have superhuman abilities with improvised weapons. The latter seems like the intent of the class. So I don't see the ability adding nothing to their capabilities, or adding something largely unrelated to the text like whip use.

[Grynning]

Normal people can't use an improvised weapon to gain reach, or any sort of special weapon property other than using it do lethal damage. That's what the Drunken Master class feature does. The "weapon" still has a size and requires an appropriate number of hands.

I'm really not sure what you're arguing here. From my standpoint, if someone claimed this class feature lets you dual wield ladders or tables in their build, one in each hand, I'd say "no, that's not how it works" and dock in elegance.

[T.G. Oskar]

Originally Posted by Grynning

I didn't used to post criteria, but since the contest started allowing disputes of scores (usually on rules grounds) it's a good idea to let people know up front what will fly and what won't. Criteria aren't strictly enforced or anything, but for the competitors it's good to know if you are going to dock in elegance because you dislike Unearthed Arcana or hit them in power if they are a basic core melee fighter (those are JUST EXAMPLES guys, not my actual criteria, you can read it above).

Originally Posted by true_shinken

What Grynning said. Also, I believe I only had my criteria posted once while I was judging. So I believe you could, yes, be a 'mystery judge'.

Hah! Then I shall be a mystery gourmand judge, even if my name is known! What shall be unknown is my criteria to judge, though I will surely deck for stuff that's on the main rules, of course. It's not like I'll allow everything.

But really, surprise me. Stuff isn't fun when you're not opening your books for everything and really using your mind. Of course, that doesn't mean all judges will like it, but hey, it's good to try something different without trying to exactly please ;)

[Rancor1]

The prevalent assumption that I have seen on CO boards is #1, that a drunken master can use exceptionally long items to grant exceptional reach beyond +5 ft depending on that length of the item. A 50ft ladder would grant 50 ft reach. As it really is the only useful or interesting ability they get other than drink link a demon, which takes a while to use with move actions, I would strongly argue for this ruling...otherwise the abilities are rather bland.

[Urpriest]

Originally Posted by Grynning

Normal people can't use an improvised weapon to gain reach, or any sort of special weapon property other than using it do lethal damage. That's what the Drunken Master class feature does. The "weapon" still has a size and requires an appropriate number of hands.

Look at page 158 of Complete Warrior. Normal people can use improvised weapons to gain reach, as well as several other benefits. Since this is in the same book as the Drunken Master, I would assume that the Drunken Master is assumed to use these rules for improvised weapons. This makes sense, as most of the Drunken Master Improved Improvised Weapons abilities are upgrades from these rules: tables can be tower shields instead of just giving a +2 shield bonus, and objects with protrusions give an extra +2 to disarm. The only one that doesn't seem to be an upgrade is the use for reach, which is why I'm curious as to what the upgrade was intended to be. Dual-wielding seems silly, but unlimited reach might be closer to the intent.

[Grynning]

Originally Posted by Rancor1

The prevalent assumption that I have seen on CO boards is #1, that a drunken master can use exceptionally long items to grant exceptional reach beyond +5 ft depending on that length of the item. A 50ft ladder would grant 50 ft reach. As it really is the only useful or interesting ability they get other than drink link a demon, which takes a while to use with move actions, I would strongly argue for this ruling...otherwise the abilities are rather bland.

No...just no...you can't even wield a 50 ft. ladder. That'd be the equivalent of a Gargantuan weapon at least.

Originally Posted by SRD

Improvised Weapons

Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

I know "size category" generally refers to handedness, but simple logic dictates that extends to the actual size of the weapon as well.

[Rancor1]

...that is exactly why it is an improvised weapon. The ability doesn't say anything about weight, so a medium creature is still limited to 50 lbs for a 2h'd weapon by the improvised weapon rules. But if you could find a 100 ft item that weighed less than 50 lb I would think it would be wieldable as an improvised weapon.

[Grynning]

Originally Posted by Rancor1

...that is exactly why it is an improvised weapon. The ability doesn't say anything about weight, so a medium creature is still limited to 50 lbs for a 2h'd weapon by the improvised weapon rules. But if you could find a 100 ft item that weighed less than 50 lb I would think it would be wieldable as an improvised weapon.

Do you know what leverage is? I hate to kill catgirls here, but you can't effectively swing something that long, regardless of its weight.

If you are larger in size category yourself, you can wield bigger things, sure. But there's nothing in the rules here that indicate you can do more than double your natural reach with a reach weapon.

[Amphetryon]

As far as I can tell, the Improvised Weapons abilities of Drunken Master are there as damage boosters, plain and simple.

Of course, that could just be the alcohol talking.

[Rancor1]

What does real world physics have to do with a magical world with super human heroes? No one in the real world could wield it...but a hero that can dead lift 5,000 lbs?...why not? Of course it would have to fit in the confines of the environment.
By the improvised weapon rules you could wield a 10 ft+ item as an improvised weapon it would just grant normal reach as a reach weapon. The drunken master is a special case where they (arguably) get more.


You can't flurry with them, you can't enhance them (I wouldn't think you could, they aren't weapons)...even with the extra 1d12 damage you would do better sticking with unarmed strikes.

[true_shinken]

Originally Posted by Rancor1

You can't flurry with them, you can't enhance them (I wouldn't think you could, they aren't weapons)...even with the extra 1d12 damage you would do better sticking with unarmed strikes.

Well, you can't enhance unarmed strikes either. ^^
Sadly, Drunken Master is not mentioned in CW's errata.
Since the Drunken Master's improvised weapons deal more damage than his unarmed strike, the only thing you can't do with them is use flurry of blows (though, of course, there might be a way around that). The example character just mentions 'long items have reach', so I'll understand that 'according to their lenght' just means 'it needs to be this large to grant reach'.
So, no 50ft reach ladders. And yes, chairs give the +2 bonus to Drunken Masters, not their opponents.
Man, this is an editing mistake that I never expected to see. If you just use the improvised weapon rules + Drunken Master, it makes sense. But if you use CW's improvised weapon rules... then it's a mess. O.o Talk about poor editing.

[Urpriest]

Originally Posted by true_shinken

Man, this is an editing mistake that I never expected to see. If you just use the improvised weapon rules + Drunken Master, it makes sense. But if you use CW's improvised weapon rules... then it's a mess. O.o Talk about poor editing.

So for the purposes of this competition, which improvised weapon rules are we assuming?

[true_shinken]

Originally Posted by Urpriest

So for the purposes of this competition, which improvised weapon rules are we assuming?

CW is a lot more complete. So let's use that. The only thing we need to clarify is that 50ft ladders would only double your natural reach.

[Rancor1]

With regards to flurry...With the editing issues with the drunken master do we really want to get into the editing mistakes on a supposedly 3.5 prestige class that references 3.0 monk base attack abilities? And if so, is the official ruling to assume that everything it says is nonsense and just that it allows flurry to work?

Also, if you use a large improvised weapon that would do 2d6 damage by the CW rules are you forced to use the 1d6 unarmed strike damage (if that is all you have) by the Drunken master rules?


...my main build is shot. 50 ft poles would have been fun...argh.

[Urpriest]

Originally Posted by true_shinken

CW is a lot more complete. So let's use that. The only thing we need to clarify is that 50ft ladders would only double your natural reach.

Ok, so again just clarifying, we're saying that Drunken Masters gain no extra abilities with improvised reach weapons from their Improved Improvised Weapons class feature?

Also, does the bonus from using a pronged object to disarm as described in that class feature stack with the bonus described in the Complete Warrior rules? So in total they'd have +4 to disarm, like a Sai?

[Private-Prinny]

If you did enhance your unarmed strikes (Amulet of Mighty Fists/Necklace of Natural Weapons), would those bonuses extend to improvised weapons, since they deal "as much damage as your unarmed strike plus an extra 1d4 points"?

[OMG PONIES]

Originally Posted by Rancor1

...my main build is shot. 50 ft poles would have been fun...argh.

Aim for the stars! Rope comes in 300 ft lengths!

[Rancor1]

Spoiler

Well, it would have been fairly arbitrary reach depending on the environment. Metamorphosis doesn't have a limit on the size/shape of the object....

[true_shinken]

Originally Posted by Private-Prinny

If you did enhance your unarmed strikes (Amulet of Mighty Fists/Necklace of Natural Weapons), would those bonuses extend to improvised weapons, since they deal "as much damage as your unarmed strike plus an extra 1d4 points"?

They would extend to damage, I believe, yes.

Originally Posted by Urpriest

Ok, so again just clarifying, we're saying that Drunken Masters gain no extra abilities with improvised reach weapons from their Improved Improvised Weapons class feature?

Also, does the bonus from using a pronged object to disarm as described in that class feature stack with the bonus described in the Complete Warrior rules? So in total they'd have +4 to disarm, like a Sai?

Yeah, no extra abilities from improvised reach weapons and it stacks to +4.

[Grynning]

I see, I had forgotten that CW expands on improvised weapons and says that basically anyone can do what the Drunken Master's "Improved Improvised Weapon" feature does. So I can see how people would think that it was supposed to add greater reach. Sadly, I don't think the wording of the ability supports that, and it certainly doesn't let you wield larger weapons than you normally could (even though there is a disconnect in D&D between size and reach). All the feature does, as far as I can tell, is let you use tables as tower shields.

My example of using an improvised whip was just as me constructing a situation where I could see a one-handed reach weapon working.

Edit: Just to clarify, I am not one of those "Everything must be realistic, melee can't have nice things" people (I love ToB, the sword and sorcery genre, and melee characters in general), I was just saying that I don't think the ability does that within the rules.

[WinWin]

My interpretation of improvised weapons was completely different.

Basically I thought it simply allowed the monk to fight 'unarmed' while holding mundane objects. Flagons, cups, adventuring gear, whatever. They are an extension of their unarmed ability. Not a typical armed attack. The fact that they can adapt that ability to a variety of objects and environments dos not mean they are actually wielding the weapon as 'normal.' If that were the case, the description should have refereed to the chapter on improvised weapons in the same book.

I mean, just because Jackie Chan uses a pinball machine in a fight scene does not mean he is using less Wushu...It just means his wushu is good enough to incorperate a pinball machine in a beatdown on someone.

Of course it could just be typical WoTC editing, or a misinterpretation by me.