Epic Spell creation PEACH

[BelGareth]

Epic Spell creation

I am currently running an Epic Pathfinder/OGL 3.0/3.5 campaign and I am attempting to modify and smooth out the creation for Epic spells. I believe them to be an important part of the campaign and feel. Who doesn't want the ability to sunder mountains and block out the sun. Plus it explains a lot of things and adds numerous tools to my DM tool kit.

I feel and believe that the current system for Epic spell creation is flawed and limited in its ability. This is my attempt to smooth it out and allow players/DM's to allow the creation of any type of Epic spell.

Rules

Spoiler

So I will be using the Epic spell crafting rules based from the 3.0 EPH.
This will [hopefully] allow players to literally create any affect via Epic Spell casting that they can think of.

Rules:
After reaching 21st level PC’s will be able to take the Epic Spell casting Feat (with the feat they get at 21st level using standard progression from Pathfinder), which allows you to craft Epic spells. PC’s can craft any type of Epic Spell as long as they pay the gp, take the allotted time and make the appropriate spellcraft check. Non Wizards can add their primary spellcasting ability to spellcraft checks to create epic spells.

Feat
Epic Spell Creation
Requirements: Spellcraft ranks 21 and ability cast maximum spell level of class
Benefit: Ability to create Epic Spells
Special: Character may add main spellcasting ability to spellcraft checks instead of Int for Epic spell creation and casting

Cost:
10,000 gp/spellcraft DC
+50,000 DC 50+ (for spells with DC creation of 51 - 74)
+100,000 DC 75+
+150,000 DC 100+

This represents research, spells, scrolls, specials incense and material components. It is all consumed when you have completed the spell.

Time:
1 day/spellcraft DC/2

Casters can cast 1 Epic spell per 10 ranks of spellcraft, so a 21st level Caster can cast 2 Epic spells per day. When casting an Epic spell they must make a spellcraft check vs DC of the epic spell. PC’s may use abilities such as the Warlocks ability to take 10 on the DC. If the check is failed the Epic spell is waisted.

DC (for the spell, NOT the spellcraft DC to create the spell)
DC is 20 + Spellcasting ability modifier + 1/spellcraft DC/10
For example Terry a 21st Level Mage with +13 Int casting a Spellcraft DC 45 Epic spell would have a DC of: 37

*note* this is the DC for the spell and NOT spellcraft DC for creating the spell.

Spell Creation

Spoiler

Spell Creation:
The player starts by choosing what they want the spell to do, they then choose a spell that matches it as close as possible. If no spell comes close the Wish/Miracle spell can be used as default. The PC must be able to cast it, with exception of the Warlock.

For example: Terry the 21st Level Mage wants to move a mountain, the best spell to use would be Move earth (or some other derivative)

This spell is called the Seed and will be basis of the spell. It is possible to have multiple seeds, modify each seed separately and add all DC modifiers together to get the final DC of the spell.
Now apply any affects desired: (all modifiers are cumulative unless noted)
DC 20+

Spell School	DC
Specialist School	-5
Domain Related	-5
Spell Focus (school in relation to spell)	-1
Focused Specialist	-5
Banned School	+10

Casting Time	DC
Full round	+0
Standard	+10
Swift (Requires Standard)	+10
Contingent (requires Swift, uses up slot)	+10

Components	DC
No Verbal component	+2
No Somatic Component	+2
No Focus	+2
No Material	+1/1,000gp

Every Epic Spell has a Verbal, Somatic and Focus component, if the Seed spell has material components then multiply the amount by the final spellcraft DC/10. If modifying the Material amount, you modify the initial amount and NOT the multiplied.

For example the Seed has 10,000 gp worth component you +9 to the spellcraft DC reducing it by 9,000gp leaving it with a 1,000gp component. You then take the final DC and divide by 10 multiplying the result by the remaining 1,000gp. If you remove it completely you need not do this calculation as there will be nothing to multiply by.

Target	DC
Single	+0
+1/Level within 30 ft	+5/additional target
Cone (30 ft)	+10
Line (60 ft)	+10
Increase area	+5/per 50%
Cylinder 10ft x 30ft	+5
10ft square (shapeable)	+5/square
Area (non damaging spells) 40 ft burst	+5
Spread	+5
Transdimensional (affects Ethereal)	+10

Affect	DC
+100%	+2-200

This is the key to making powerful custom spells and is solely up to DM discretion, try to come to a compromise between player and DM but final judgment should be the DM’s call. Think about how much the affect of the SEED needs to be amplified and add ten for each factor.

For Example, Move Earth can move 750x750 sq ft by itself, to move a mountain it would have to be 3 or 4 times its original power, adding +40 to the DC. This is of course subjective and if the final DC is seemingly to low then some adjustment would be needed.

Damage	DC
Increase Die Size	+10/per increase
Change energy (fire, electricity, Cold, Acid, Sonic, Force)	+5
Add Energy type (split damage equally)	+10
Increase Damage Cap +5CL (Max Double CL)	+5/per Increase
Untyped Damage	+15

Duration (start at original and +/- DC for each level increased/decreased)	DC
Instantaneous	+40
1 round/level	+/-5
1 min/level	+/-5
1 hour/level	+/-10
1 day/level	+/-15
Dismissable	+5
Permanent*	+40

*Material Component (unavoidable) 100,000gp x CL

Range (start at original and +/- DC for each level increased/decreased)	DC
Touch	+10
Short	+/-5
Medium	+/-5
Long	+/-5
+50%	+5/per

Misc	DC
+1 DC	+2/per
+1 spell Pen	+5/per
No Save	+60
Auto hit	+20
No SR	+20
*Works in antimagic/deadzone	+20
**Written on stone tablet	+15

*All Epic Spells have a chance to work in Antimagic/deadzones, the chance of working is 5% per Spellcraft DC/20.

For example a DC60 Epic Spell would have a 15% chance of working.
(60/20=3, 3*5=15)

**Stone tablets are the only way a spell caster can learn an Epic spell, much like a scroll, it takes 1 day/10,000gp spent on the spell to research it to learn. Once learned the caster can use it indefinitely (as long as they have the book with it in).


Modifiers

Ceremony Spell (the spell can be fueled by additional persons) The maximum level spell determines the modifier for the spellcraft DC to cast the spell. If an Epic spell uses this method it is required to have a minimum of 2 spellcasters to complete unless you choose the non Restricted modifier. Upon completing the spell any participants lose the highest spell that they can cast or a slot in case of spontaneous casters.

Level	Modifier
9th	-9
Epic	-10
Not Restricted by Circle	+10

Misc	DC
1 Hp burn	-1/per 2 HP's
1 Con burn	-5/per con
Material Comp (Diamond Dust, ruby dust etc)	-1/1,000gp
Alignment Restriction (cannot be added to a seed with one already)	-5/per alignment
Stunned for 1 round after casting*	-1/per round
Death (cannot combine with hp/con burn)	+5/HD
1 hour casting time	-10
16 hours (uninterruptable)	-15
24 hours (uninterruptable)	-20

*This cannot be removed by any magic.

Once all modifiers have been accounted for the gp paid and time spent the PC must make a spellcraft check to see if he/she has mastered the Epic Spell, if successful the PC can use the spell as one of their allotted Epic spells. If failed they must continue to research for one week. An amount of gp must also be spent equal to 10,000gp per week.

Once a PC has made an Epic Spell they must store the spell in an entire spellbook, if this spellbook is ever vandalized or destroyed they must start over (if they wish too) with a -20 DC to recreate the same spell. This is the same for spontaneous casters and even divine spellcasters. The PC must study the Epic Spell when choosing their spells for the morning or they cannot choose or cast it for that day. Another pc scanning the book is not able to learn the spell from it.

A PC can only learn a certain amount of Epic Spells, the maximum amount of Epic Spells a PC can have at one time is their main spellcasting modifier/5. Once a PC has learned their maximum they cannot learn any more unless they destroy a current Epic spell. It's part of the law of Magic in the universe set down by the primordeals upon the precipice of creation.

If a PC wants to create a tablet after the fact they can by spending an amount of gp equal to 10,000gp and 1 day per spellcraft DC/5. Finally they must make a spellcraft check with a +10DC. If failed they must continue as per the Epic Spell crafting rules.

Minimum DC, an Epic spell can never be reduced in spellcraft DC lower than 20 + CL/2 (round down)

Spell Resistance
Per usual rules any spell that requires a roll to hit is not affected by Spell resistance, similarly any spell that doesn’t need a roll to hit is affected by spell resistance. (or course if the Seed has SR or doesn't then the Epic spell is the same, in cases of multiple Seeds if one has SR then the Epic spell has it.)

Saves
Anything that deals damage in an area of any form allows for a Reflex save. Any spell that deals mass damage to one target allows for a Fortitude save and any spell that targets the faculty’s allow for a Will save.
As per usual the DM is the final judge.

Examples:
Holy Forceball

Spoiler

Holy Forceball
1D8 per level (max 45d8) which deals Force damage, it also destroys any force affect within its area of affect, only affects Evil creatures, standard action, and deals 20 damage and 2 con to the caster.

Seed[Fireball]

Base	20
+30 die cap	+30
D6 upgrade to d8	+10
Special affect (destroy force affects)	+20
Standard Action	+10
40HP burn	-20
-2 Con	-10
Evil	-5
DC	60

700,000gp and 30 days
REF Save for half damage DC 26 + spellcasting Modifier
15% of working in antimagic

Mass Area Charm Monster

Spoiler

Mass Area Charm Monster
Charm monster, Mass Area
Range of 800ft, no HD cap, 24 hour casting time, caster takes 100hp damage

Seed[Charm Monster, Mass]

Base	20
Special affect (no HD limit)	+20
+2000%	+200
100 rounds of stun	-100
24 hours	-20
DC	120

2,200,000gp and 60 days
Will Save DC 32 + Spellcasting Modifier
30% of working in antimagic

Additional Feat (High Circle Magic)

Spoiler

Feat
High Circle Magic
Requirements: Spellcraft ranks 25, Epic Spell Creation
Benefit: Ability to cast Epic spells with other Epic Casters. Any amount of Epic Spellcasters who have this feat may participate in the research and casting of an Epic spell. They each roll their own Spellcraft Check and combine all results. When casting Epic spells in this fashion, any cost (HP, Con, Death or gp) needs to be paid by each user.
Special: This allows for extremely powerful Epic spells to be utilized by a handful of casters.

Any help/comments would help out, try making a custom spell and see if it is with power of an Epic PC who can make the DC.

Avg. Spellcraft bonus from 21st level mage:
21 ranks + 3 class skill + 6 Focus + 13 Int = 43
Avg Roll 10.5 (lets round down for unluck sake) so 10 + 43 = 53 DC
Also keep in mind magical items that could boost spellcraft checks (much like boots of elvenkind)

Remember this is EPIC so it might seem overpowering when in fact its not.
And...have fun making them....

[ChumpLump]

To assist with response value, you may express early on how this is different than what is already available.

A brief synopsis before the wall o' text.

[BelGareth]

Good point, thought i had already.
It's different in the Seed aspect, I beleive the rules for spell creation is clunky and badly designed as is. This is an attempt to streamline it and allow players to freely design epic spells as needed.

[Siosilvar]

Why bother increasing the save DC when you can get No Save for the same cost as DC +2?

[blackjack217]

Why does your primary spell-casting ability increase the DC? Does a stupider wizard really have a easier time?

[BelGareth]

Originally Posted by Siosilvar

Why bother increasing the save DC when you can get No Save for the same cost as DC +2?

No save is +20
thought it was a typo but it's there.

Originally Posted by blackjack217

Why does your primary spell-casting ability increase the DC? Does a stupider wizard really have a easier time?

The primary spell casting ability has no impact the DC for spell creation, it only affects the Spell DC, the targets of the spell.
The higher your spell casting mod the easier time you have as your spellcraft check is higher.
Two DC's
Spell DC
Spellcraft DC to create Epic Spell

[Dante & Vergil]

Originally Posted by Siosilvar

Why bother increasing the save DC when you can get No Save for the same cost as DC +2?

Originally Posted by BelGareth

No save is +20
thought it was a typo but it's there.

What he means is that instead of increasing the save DC +2 (which is +20 to the Spellcraft DC to create the spell), you can instead make the spell have no save (which is also +20 to the Spellcraft DC to create the spell).
You probably need to make no-save cost much more. An old Epic System that Dicefreaks made (It's so old that I found it dumpster diving the Internet and found it) , has increasing DC's +2 each, and no-save as +60, thirty times as much. You may value no-save much less, but it shouldn't be as low as it is now.

[Magikeeper]

Notes:

>Spell resistance does not work that way. Many roll-to-hit spells do allow for SR.
> Instantaneous is MUCH better than Permanent.

Unfortunately, this system still has the biggest flaws of Epic magic. Mitigating down to DC 0 is the name of the game, although it is now harder to change the shape of your spells and the crazy ritual spells are now no-save and dead zone proof on top of everything else. On the other hand, the lack of XP costs in creating the spells and the +0 full round action does make simple combat spells more of a possibility. So having a DC 10 spell is not the end of the world and actually using an epic spell in combat might happen now. But why would I pay 700,000gp for holy forceball?

Either don’t have the cost be based on the DC or remove mitigation and greatly reduce the price tag. Maybe remove the cost entirely and put a cap on how many epic spells you can know. Like, you can only know 1 + 1/2 spellcraft ranks over 20 epic spells, rounded down – this results in such spells being “special” and each caster will likely have his own signature spells. Or maybe a flat cost of epic spells in general, allowing current spells to be altered slightly for a lower price.

Also, ritual spells should require 9th level spells minimum. If you can gather that many 9th level casters in one place you can do anything anyway, but an army of 3rd level casters does not usually result in cosmic power. I don’t see why you don’t allow duet spells – that’s hardly the broken use of ritual magic and has some flavor to it. I suggest removing no save and maybe the +10 DC to ignore antimagic/dead zones.

The most important thing is this: As long as cost is tied to spellcraft DCs, players will do whatever they can to avoid high DC spells. Which means the epic spells will either be really minor or crazy strong spells that are actually worth mitigating a high DC to 0.

[BelGareth]

Originally Posted by Dante & Vergil

What he means is that instead of increasing the save DC +2 (which is +20 to the Spellcraft DC to create the spell), you can instead make the spell have no save (which is also +20 to the Spellcraft DC to create the spell).
You probably need to make no-save cost much more. An old Epic System that Dicefreaks made (It's so old that I found it dumpster diving the Internet and found it) , has increasing DC's +2 each, and no-save as +60, thirty times as much. You may value no-save much less, but it shouldn't be as low as it is now.

Doh! Thanks so much for pointing that out, I get it and siosilvar sorry for mistaking what you said. It sounds like a good idea to increase the DC.

Magikeeper, I'm working on your response....:p

[BelGareth]

Originally Posted by Magikeeper

Notes:

>Spell resistance does not work that way. Many roll-to-hit spells do allow for SR.
> Instantaneous is MUCH better than Permanent.

Unfortunately, this system still has the biggest flaws of Epic magic. Mitigating down to DC 0 is the name of the game, although it is now harder to change the shape of your spells and the crazy ritual spells are now no-save and dead zone proof on top of everything else. On the other hand, the lack of XP costs in creating the spells and the +0 full round action does make simple combat spells more of a possibility. So having a DC 10 spell is not the end of the world and actually using an epic spell in combat might happen now. But why would I pay 700,000gp for holy forceball?

Either don’t have the cost be based on the DC or remove mitigation and greatly reduce the price tag. Maybe remove the cost entirely and put a cap on how many epic spells you can know. Like, you can only know 1 + 1/2 spellcraft ranks over 20 epic spells, rounded down – this results in such spells being “special” and each caster will likely have his own signature spells. Or maybe a flat cost of epic spells in general, allowing current spells to be altered slightly for a lower price.

Also, ritual spells should require 9th level spells minimum. If you can gather that many 9th level casters in one place you can do anything anyway, but an army of 3rd level casters does not usually result in cosmic power. I don’t see why you don’t allow duet spells – that’s hardly the broken use of ritual magic and has some flavor to it. I suggest removing no save and maybe the +10 DC to ignore antimagic/dead zones.

The most important thing is this: As long as cost is tied to spellcraft DCs, players will do whatever they can to avoid high DC spells. Which means the epic spells will either be really minor or crazy strong spells that are actually worth mitigating a high DC to 0.

Point taken on the SR, as always it's up to the DM to mitigate the final spell.
Not sure about the instantaneous vs permanent. Give me an example, I was thinking along the lines of affects that are instantaneous being upgraded to last longer. I can't think of any spell that has a duration that would benefit from it being instantaneous instead (1 round)

I like your point on mitigating DC's down to 0, didn't think of people trying to do that, maybe a minimum should be emplaced to avoid people from overburning themselves to get a DC 0 Epic spell, which would go against the whole system. Again DM is final judge. I think a bottom cap of 20 + CL/2 or something similar? That would ensure a 21CL could have a minimum of 30 DC spells?

Now I'm thinking about it the antimagic/dead zone may be a little too powerful, however this IS Epic spell casting we're talking about. Maybe a bump in the DC cost and a drop in the percentage for natural occurrence.

Why 700,000gp, because it's Epic. It's part of mitigating the power of Epic spells, they are Epic and require alot of research and prayer.

I like your idea of restricting the amount of Epic spells, I changed it to a max of main spell casting modifier / 5. This limits their options of just making a spell for the heck of it.

I hear your point on the ceremony only allowing 9th or higher to particpate, will change that.

Thanks alot for your input! I appreciate it!

[Dante & Vergil]

"No SR" and "Spell Penetration +1" are suffering a similar problem the "No Save" and "Save +1" did, and "Spell Penetration +1" should probably be "+1/per" instead of "+5/per" because it's usually valued less than Save DC increases, like when you compare Spell Focus and Spell Penetration and their greater and epic counterparts.
Other than that, it looks good. This also might make for a good Epic Maneuver system as well with slight modifications.