Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction]

[Dusk Eclipse]

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

They don't, if the gnoll example in UA is any indication, hence why I list 10th and 12th for the buyoff points (2 RHD + 2 LA + 6 CL = 10; 2 RHD + 1 LA + 9 CL = 12). In the case of the non-psionic version, it'd be ECL 6.

Ah I see; ok then.

[Lateral]

Originally Posted by Hirax

Sorry to necro, but I would like to see Synad (CPsi) mentioned in the races section, with a note that they're one of the few ways to get more swift actions, something that you can never have too much of. Only 1/day, or 2/day if you take their racial feat (also in CPsi), but still useful.

Doesn't work, the action granted has to be used for a purely mental action. Initiating a maneuver isn't a purely mental action.

[Draz74]

Yeah, Thri-Kreen Warblade has some amazing synergies. I can't decide whether it's better off wielding four Kukris with Multiweapon Fighting, or two Falchions with Oversized TWF. Either way ... ouch.

[Greenish]

Originally Posted by Draz74

Yeah, Thri-Kreen Warblade has some amazing synergies. I can't decide whether it's better off wielding four Kukris with Multiweapon Fighting, or two Falchions with Oversized TWF. Either way ... ouch.

I'm not sure OTWF would work with two-handers, but two weapons are cheaper than four.

[Hirax]

Originally Posted by Lateral

Doesn't work, the action granted has to be used for a purely mental action. Initiating a maneuver isn't a purely mental action.

Right, I didn't mean to imply you could use it for dual maneuvers. You could use it to activate a belt of battle, or any other useful magic item, though, which is far from inconsiderable. That would give you 2 full round actions and your original swift/immediate action with which to do whatever you like in a single turn. Use your original swift action to activate a maneuver that lasts until the end of your turn, charge enemy 1 with your first full round action, then charge enemy 2 with your second full round action, and both charges will get the benefit of maneuver you activated that lasts until the end of your turn. Alternatively, save your original swift/immediate action for a counter. Or use moment of alacrity. That's just a couple possibilities. Swift actions are precious, even outside using maneuvers.

[Lateral]

Don't immediate actions take up next turn's swift, so it doesn't matter if your last turn had it extra?

[Hirax]

That is how immediate actions work. Trading your immediate action for another full round action before your enemy's turn may or may not be useful in every situation. The point is it's worth a mention.

[Greenish]

Originally Posted by Hirax

That is how immediate actions work. Trading your immediate action for another full round action before your enemy's turn may or may not be useful in every situation. The point is it's worth a mention.

If you use up your swift action(s) before the enemy's turn, so what. That doesn't prevent you from using immediate actions, which is what Lateral was saying.

His point was that you can't "save up" your swift actions.

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by Draz74

Yeah, Thri-Kreen Warblade has some amazing synergies. I can't decide whether it's better off wielding four Kukris with Multiweapon Fighting, or two Falchions with Oversized TWF. Either way ... ouch.

I'm not sure a Thri-Kreen or any other 4-limbed creature actually needs Oversized TWF to use two-handers in multiweapon fighting, given at least one writeup of thri-kreen have their own rules for using a pair of gythka, which are double weapons and all and I think probably preferable to using sets of kukri, anyways.

[FMArthur]

One great benefit of Goliath is missing from the guide: the ability to make standing Jumps as if they were running Jumps. It's Leaping Dragon Stance (minus the +10 feet) without taking up your few stances known or occupying your current stance slot. Makes Sudden Leap and general Tiger Claw usage all the tastier and usable earlier. I'd say this, their stats and the bonuses from Powerful Build merit an Orange listing.

You might also mention the Diopsid from the Dragon Compendium in the LA +1 category. They don't have much amazing synergy with Warblade in particular (-2 Dex, +2 Con and -2 Int adjustments probably hurt more than they help), but are a solid melee race with a couple properties that a melee character would find interesting, due to their weak extra limbs:

• Ability to wield weapons one size category larger - not Powerful Build, but Large weapons are nice.
• Ability to take any 'two-weapon' feats without the Dex prerequisite.
• Ability to dual-wield weapons while counting as wielding each of them in two hands. You take the full penalties for TWFing with non-light weapons, so despite the flavor text this style is only workable with Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting and one-handed weapons (which are conveniently Large-sized and thus mostly equivalent to Medium two-handers).
• +4 Natural armor, slow-falling wings, and other little stuff. They can't use shields, medium or heavy armor or wield weapons individually with its weaker arms (like a Thri-Kreen could) without incurring massive penalties.

Their unique combat style is useful to consider for any melee class, but for Warblades Diopsids are probably just plain blue as a race. ToB classes in particular are already capable of taking care of TWF's disadvantages without this race's help.

[Greenish]

Originally Posted by FMArthur

One great benefit of Goliath is missing from the guide

Not for the lack of trying…

Spoiler

Originally Posted by Greenish

I want to see both!

Word up for a race: goliaths' Powerful Build tends to overshadow the rest of their racial features, but for warblades also the ability to perform standing jumps without doubling the DC is handy.

Originally Posted by Greenish

It should also be mentioned that they do not double the DC for standing jumps, which synergizes nicely with Tiger Claw.

Anyhow, I'm not sure this version is getting any updates in the foreseeable future. Someone did a new version, I seem to recall.

[Lateral]

Yeah, Harnel reposted it because Elfin hasn't posted since about January and this way the community can add stuff. It's not finished, after all.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193992

[Kaeso]

It may sound like a demanding request, but it'd be really cool if somebody could suggest a good build that combines dungeon crasher fighter with warblade.

[Jade Dragon]

Originally Posted by Kaeso

It may sound like a demanding request, but it'd be really cool if somebody could suggest a good build that combines dungeon crasher fighter with warblade.

1. Be a multiclass dungeoncrasher fighter/warblade.
2. Get Charging Minotaur.
3. Get an adamantine portable ram and use it as an improvised weapon.
4. ???
5. Profit!

[Kaeso]

Originally Posted by Swiftmongoose

1. Be a multiclass dungeoncrasher fighter/warblade.
2. Get Charging Minotaur.
3. Get an adamantine portable ram and use it as an improvised weapon.
4. ???
5. Profit!

Isn't charging minotaur:
1. A manouvre that doesn't scale that well
2. Made redundant if you take improved bull rush
??

And why a portable ram? Why not a warhammer or something?

[Greenish]

Originally Posted by Kaeso

Isn't charging minotaur:
1. A manouvre that doesn't scale that well
2. Made redundant if you take improved bull rush
??

1. Yes, if you're not focusing on bull rush. But why are you a dungeoncrasher if you're not focusing on bull rush?

2. No.

[Hirax]

Originally Posted by Kaeso

It may sound like a demanding request, but it'd be really cool if somebody could suggest a good build that combines dungeon crasher fighter with warblade.

Be a goliath dragonborn for +4 con, +4 str, and -4 dex

Fighter2/barbarian1*/warblade17
*pounce+whirling frenzy variants
Feats:
1: power attack
F1 imp bull rush
F2: dungeoncrasher
3: extra rage
6: shock trooper
9: knockback or leap attack

Also ask your DM if you can expand the warblade's crappy and tiny bonus feat list to instead be any fighter bonus feat, which would allow you to take knockback with your 5th warblade level, then leap attack with your level 9 feat.

edit: rampaging bullrush is another feat possibility, you can knock foes prone when you power attack them while in a rage.

[Kaeso]

Originally Posted by Greenish

1. Yes, if you're not focusing on bull rush. But why are you a dungeoncrasher if you're not focusing on bull rush?

2. No.

How is improved bull rush not made redundant by minotaurs charge? They both allow you to push an opponent back without provoking an AoO, but the minotaurs charge does 2d6 damage to boot.

[Greenish]

Dragonborn would lose the Powerful Build, I'm afraid.

[Edit]:

Originally Posted by Kaeso

How is improved bull rush not made redundant by minotaurs charge? They both allow you to push an opponent back without provoking an AoO, but the minotaurs charge does 2d6 damage to boot.

Well, Imp. Bull Rush removes the AoO from the defender. Charging Minotaur denies the AoO from anyone.

[Edit]: Also, Charging Minotaur allows you to push the enemy back for more than 5' without following.

[Hirax]

Originally Posted by Kaeso

How is improved bull rush not made redundant by minotaurs charge? They both allow you to push an opponent back without provoking an AoO, but the minotaurs charge does 2d6 damage to boot.

Improved bull rush is a pre req for many melee feats that are worth consideration for a dungeon crasher, such as shock trooper, knockback (which grants huge bonuses to bull rush checks), rampaging bull rush, and others that the build I just posted didn't mention.

Originally Posted by Greenish

Dragonborn would lose the Powerful Build, I'm afraid.

They explicitly keep it.

[Greenish]

Originally Posted by Hirax

They explicitly keep it.

Ah, that's alright then.

[Jade Dragon]

Originally Posted by Kaeso

And why a portable ram? Why not a warhammer or something?

It's for this little thing called fluff.

[FMArthur]

Better synergy is with a Goliath character, which is the poster-child for Dungeon Crasher builds. Get all the usuals: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Knockback and Shock Trooper. The Warblade interaction comes from the Goliath's racial ability to make standing jumps as if they were running, for Tiger Claw maneuvers. While there is also just a stance for that, this does free up the stance slot for Leading the Charge (+IL to dmg on charge), Blood in the Water (+1 att/dmg for every crit), and Tactics of the Wolf (+IL to dmg when flanking) among others.

It also means you can leap over your opponent easily with one of five Tiger Claw maneuvers that attack from above (why are there FIVE of the same damn move?!), and use Knockback to smash them into the ground for Dungeon Crasher damage. You can also gain Swift Action movement through Sudden Leap, which moves you the amount determined by a Jump check. A Barbarian dip is good to have for Pounce, Whirling Blade and such.

Really the standard Dungeon Crasher feat selection functions on its own perfectly fine. Warblade just expands your options and makes you more versatile efficiently.

[MeeposFire]

Originally Posted by Kaeso

It may sound like a demanding request, but it'd be really cool if somebody could suggest a good build that combines dungeon crasher fighter with warblade.

Warblade5/fighter6/bloodstorm blade4/deepstone sentinel5

Warblade for prerequisites.

Fighter for dungeoncrasher

Bloodstorm blade for ranged charges and bullrushes

deepstone sentinel for charging adjacent targets and creating your own walls so you can dungeon crash in a flat field no problem and some battlefield control.

You could easily replace 4 levels of warblade for other classes if you don't want more maneuvers.

Flavorful and synergetic.

Required feats-power attack and pointblank shot

Required stances-one Iron heart and one stone dragon

Strikes-one iron heart 2 stone dragon

Skills- balance 8 and then balance 13

So no difficult requirements.

[true_shinken]

I really like that build, Meepos.

[Kaeso]

Me too, it looks like fun to try it once. Ranged bullrushes sound pretty amusing.

[Jade Dragon]

Make it warblade 1/fighter 6/warblade 4/bloodstorm blade 4/deepstone sentinel 5. That way you still get the warblade's skill ranks x4, but you get an extra three IL.

[FMArthur]

I like the Bloodstorm Blade idea with the ranged charges and bull-rushes, but I have a lot of doubts on the Deepstone Sentinel's contributions to a Dungeon Crasher build. First you have to be a Dwarf, meaning that Goliaths - and Knockback as well - are out of the mix, and they are a powerful part of Dungeon Crashing. You could be a Goliath and take 3 levels of Stoneblessed (RoS) to count as a Dwarf, but you'd be ECL 10 before you would even start your progress as a martial adept.

The Stone Dragon stance that Deepstone Sentinel gives you has tight restrictions on your mobility, requires standard actions of setup to give yourself solid object to smash people into, and eats more swift actions than you might like: you have to enter a Stone Dragon Stance (which ends if you move more than 5ft) to enter the DS's Mountain Fortress Stance (which also ends if you move more than 5ft). I seriously doubt the usefulness of an adjacent-charge that takes two swift actions to set up (each time, because it ends your stance) and requires you to stay still for the set-up. Why not buy Anklets of Translocation for Swift 10ft teleports to charge people you start your turn beside?

I'd sooner just smash them into the ground by leaping over them to attack with Tiger Claw strikes, but if that doesn't fly with your DM then I do admit the pillar for a standard action is hard to replicate, if limited in usefulness. It's too far from a sure thing though, and your foes are just going to stay away from them after they see you do any Dungeon Crashing. It's definitely not worth giving up Goliath and Knockback for, and absolutely not worth 7 levels between Stoneblessed and Deepstone Sentinel if you do try to be a Dwarven Goliath.

[Hirax]

FWIW here's another bloodstorm blade centered build I made. Fitting dungeon crasher into it would be easy.

Edit: oops, fixed link, thanks for the heads up.

[Jade Dragon]

Originally Posted by Hirax

FWIW here's another bloodstorm blade centered build I made. Fitting dungeon crasher into it would be easy.

Wrong link.