Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook [Under Construction] - Page 22

Elfin · 11-11-2011, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfin

Hello, all.

Firstly I want to apologize for abandoning this, especially without any word. It was really not a cool thing to do. Stuff came up, and then more stuff, and then more, and by that time I wasn't even thinking of this site – but I should have notified you people and made arrangements.

But secondly and most importantly, I want to thank Harnel and everyone else for taking the project up. At this point I'd like to think it's not so much my project or Harnel's but ours as a whole.

It looks like it's been a couple of months since new content has been added, so I'm going to try resurrecting the original thread and moving all the new content to there, where I will hopefully start finishing it.

Now that I've permission to resurrect it, Masters of the Sword is officially back up and running. The first order of business is schlepping over all the great work that was done in my absence, and then editing both that material and my original work. After that begins the business of finishing the handbook.

Any and all feedback, input, and additions are of course always welcome.

Lateral · 11-11-2011, 03:27 PM

Sweetness. Any plans to resurrect the Swordsage's Handbook as well? I think Hazzarddevil did a repost.

TravelLog · 11-11-2011, 03:32 PM

Great to see this back.

Elfin · 11-11-2011, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lateral

Sweetness. Any plans to resurrect the Swordsage's Handbook as well? I think Hazzarddevil did a repost.

I'll look into it, but I'd first like to finish this one. When I started the Swordsage handbook it was mostly as a reserve - I never intended to seriously buckle down until I had the Warblade handbook finished. That ended up with interest quickly dying off, which is something I don't want to repeat.

Also, besides editing and putting up combat styles and weapon choices from the repost thread (a big thanks to Harnel for both of those), I've added a new section, Tips and Tricks. If anyone has anything to contribute - whether combat advice, general tricks, cool ways to use spells or magic items, or anything of that sort - it'd be great to hear it.

deuxhero · 11-11-2011, 06:51 PM

I'd say increase the rank on Know: History. It covers wars ~~you know~~, not just historical wars, but "wars" (read: Tactics). This is in fact it's intended use, not an oversight (Red Knight's Paladin's get in in FR and she is the goddess of tactics.).

Dusk Eclipse · 11-11-2011, 07:21 PM

The problem I see with that is that how often it comes in a "normal" game? Must games are about a little band of adventurers against the world, there are few instances in which the knowledge of military tactics would be useful (the only one that springs to mind is in RHoD).

So it is almost the perfect fir for a niche skill.

deuxhero · 11-11-2011, 07:49 PM

A 4 man group of commandos is almost all the time though. If nothing else, it gives you an in-character ability to pull of what battle strategy you decide on.

Either way, the skill's commentary should note it.

Elfin · 11-12-2011, 11:32 AM

A fair point; I'll add that in.

Now everything done so far has been added. As far as the handbook goes, this is what it looks like is left to add:

- Magic items
- Tips and tricks
- Sample progressions and more builds

Magic items is obviously the most major and time-consuming of those; rather than running through every magic item, I'm planning on only featuring those which are potentially useful.

As for tips, I'll look into scouring the forums and other handbooks, though any submissions are greatly appreciated.

For sample progressions, I'm planning on adding a basic, sword-and-board warblade who takes Weapon Focus and Specialization feats; after that, perhaps a TWFer who focuses on Tiger Claw and perhaps goes into BCM. I'm split between doing one progression focusing on each discipline or one for each applicable ToB PrC - any thoughts?
Besides that, any build submissions in the vein of what we have so far are very welcome.

TravelLog · 11-12-2011, 01:14 PM

I'd put the feral template up there, as well as the shadow template depending on what you're going for. Feral is one of my favorites and has tons of good advantages.

Elfin · 11-12-2011, 01:17 PM

The problem is that Savage Species is 3.0, which means that it's debatable whether it's allowable in 3.5. As for the Shadow template - personally I'm not sure if it's the best choice for a warblade, but you're right that it's definitely worth putting up.

TravelLog · 11-12-2011, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfin

The problem is that Savage Species is 3.0, which means that it's debatable whether it's allowable in 3.5. As for the Shadow template - personally I'm not sure if it's the best choice for a warblade, but you're right that it's definitely worth putting up.

Yeah, that's true, but you might simply note that if their DM okays it, feral is fantastic. And shadow is very build dependent. Most warblades wouldn't mesh with it (usually better for swordsages), but it does work with some more hit-and-run, mobility-oriented builds.

Lateral · 11-12-2011, 01:47 PM

Dark could use a mention, though- +1 LA for massive Hide and Move Silently bonuses (even better than a Whisper Gnome's bonuses); a Dark Whisper Gnome with Martial Study (any Shadow Hand) could make a pretty effective Warblade. Of course, it makes more sense with a Swordsage, but it can work with a Warblade too.

Come to think of it, Whisper Gnomes could use mentioning as a great race for small, more dextrous Warblades; you build them like a halfling warblade, only they're even better since they have the same stat modifiers plus a bonus to CON in exchange for a hit to CHA, plus a +8 bonus (half size, half racial) to Hide, a +4 racial bonus to Move Silently, a +2 racial bonus to Spot and Listen, and Silence as an SLA. If halflings get a black rating, I'd give Whisper Gnomes a Blue rating, easy, and maybe even Cyan.

TravelLog · 11-12-2011, 02:03 PM

Another race, while not stellar at +2 LA and 2 RHD, Thri-Kreen are good martial adepts (especially with buyoff). They rock Tiger Claw especially.

+2 Strength, +4 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Int, -4 Cha
40 foot land speed
Darkvision 60', magical sleep immunity
+3 Natural Armor
Multiple limbs
Natural Attacks/Poison
+30 foot racial bonus to jump checks
Other minor stuff

Also, for roles, I'd mark Primary Melee as gold. It's the key role for any martial adept, and likewise, I'd upgrade mobility to Light Blue.

Lateral · 11-12-2011, 02:09 PM

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Originally Posted by TravelLog

Another race, while not stellar at +2 LA and 2 RHD, Thri-Kreen are good martial adepts (especially with buyoff). They rock Tiger Claw especially.

+2 Strength, +4 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Int, -4 Cha
40 foot land speed
Darkvision 60', magical sleep immunity
+3 Natural Armor
Multiple limbs
Natural Attacks/Poison
+30 foot racial bonus to jump checks
Other minor stuff

Nonpsionic Thri-Kreen are better. The latest version is from Shining South, which incidentally was published after the XPH and so is the latest version of both variants of Thri-Kreen anyway. They lose the psi-like abilities, but keep everything else, in exchange for only having +1 LA. Normal thri-kreen lose you 3 IL 'cause of the RHD and LA, but these only lose you two, allowing you access to 9th level maneuvers that much faster. (For Warblades, LA is obviously more of a problem than RHD since you get +1/2 IL on each RHD but each LA gets you zilch.)

Much better, in my opinion. They make great Tiger Claw-focused MWF combatants, what with their four arms and that massive bonus to jump checks. (It's not a +30-foot bonus, though, it's a +30 bonus. Fine distinction, but important; Leaping Dragon Stance granting a +10-foot competence bonus instead of a +10 competence bonus is one of the reasons why it's so good.)

TravelLog · 11-12-2011, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lateral

Nonpsionic Thri-Kreen are better. The latest version is from Shining South, which incidentally was published after the XPH and so is the latest version of both variants of Thri-Kreen anyway. They lose the psi-like abilities, but keep everything else, in exchange for only having +1 LA. Much better, in my opinion. They make great Tiger Claw-focused MWF combatants, what with their four arms and that massive bonus to jump checks. (It's not a +30-foot bonus, though, it's a +30 bonus. Fine distinction, but important; Leaping Dragon Stance granting a +10-foot competence bonus instead of a +10 competence bonus is one of the reasons why it's so good.)

You are right, I'd forgotten about the newer version. Far, far better, especially since Thri-Kreens aren't really built for psionics anyway. And yeah, I meant +30, my bad. It basically puts any Tiger Claw maneuver on steroids. I'd put them as light-blue. Gold if going Tiger Claw. Still 2 RHD though, bothersomely.

TravelLog · 11-12-2011, 02:52 PM

Underfolk from RoD.

Spoiler

Chaos Gnomes (LA +1):

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Deep Gnomes (Svirfnebli) are expensive at +3 LA, BUT:

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Saurian Shifter (Dragon Magazine 328)

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Gnoll, Flind (+2 LA, 2 RHD):

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Azerblood (+1 LA, Outsider dwarves, Dragon Magazine 350):

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Worghest (Dragon 350, LA +2)

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Zenythri (Dragon 350, LA +1):

Spoiler

Lateral · 11-12-2011, 03:33 PM

Want a second opinion?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TravelLog

Underfolk from RoD.

Spoiler

I'd only peg them at Black. 30' Darkvision is kind of crappy, the NA is very small, the skill bonuses are modest except in rocky terrain (which is pretty situational), and Light Sensitivity, while a small drawback, is a drawback nonetheless. Maybe Blue in a heavily underground campaign, but that's it.

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Chaos Gnomes (LA +1):

Spoiler

Hmm. Net +4 stat bonuses, but one of them's really a dump stat and you're losing STR. The reroll and immunity is nice, though- I'd peg them as Blue for small, dextrous warblades, but certainly not light blue.

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Deep Gnomes (Svirfnebli) are expensive at +3 LA, BUT:

Spoiler

No. Even with buyoff, it's no better than Red- you have a bonus to a secondary stat and a minor tertiary stat in exchange for a hit to STR. (Granted, the -4 CHA is no big whoop, but still.) 120' Darkvision isn't really that much better than 60' Darkvision, and the SR is as much a pain in the ass as it is a boon. The Dodge bonus, Nondetection, save bonuses, and SLAs are nice, but it's totally not worth that massive LA.

Saurian Shifter (Dragon Magazine 328)

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Spoiler

I wouldn't recommend mentioning Dragon Magazine stuff in a handbook- it isn't 1st party, and a lot of people don't allow it.

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Gnoll, Flind (+2 LA, 2 RHD):

Spoiler

Those are pretty good bonuses. With buyoff, I agree that it's at the low end of Blue.

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Azerblood (+1 LA, Outsider dwarves, Dragon Magazine 350):

Spoiler

Worghest (Dragon 350, LA +2)

Spoiler

Zenythri (Dragon 350, LA +1):

Spoiler

Again, don't bother with Dragon Mag- it isn't worth detailing all of its stuff in your guide; it's not 1st party and was generally not very consistently balanced.

TravelLog · 11-12-2011, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lateral

Want a second opinion?

Sure. Second opinions are always good.

Quote:

I'd only peg them at Black. 30' Darkvision is kind of crappy, the NA is very small, the skill bonuses are modest except in rocky terrain (which is pretty situational), and Light Sensitivity, while a small drawback, is a drawback nonetheless. Maybe Blue in a heavily underground campaign, but that's it.

This one I disagree with you on. If humans are light blue, then these guys are at the very least blue. In an underground campaign, they are better than humans IMO, so easily light blue under those circumstances. In a normal campaign, low end of blue because of light sensitivity, which can easily be overcome with equipment, like a custom pair of dark glasses.

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Hmm. Net +4 stat bonuses, but one of them's really a dump stat and you're losing STR. The reroll and immunity is nice, though- I'd peg them as Blue for small, dextrous warblades, but certainly not light blue.

I think with the reroll/compulsion, they're blue/low end of light blue. Rerolls are golden in D&D, and to get one racially 1/day is pretty nice.

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No. Even with buyoff, it's no better than Red- you have a bonus to a secondary stat and a minor tertiary stat in exchange for a hit to STR. (Granted, the -4 CHA is no big whoop, but still.) 120' Darkvision isn't really that much better than 60' Darkvision, and the SR is as much a pain in the ass as it is a boon. The Dodge bonus, Nondetection, save bonuses, and SLAs are nice, but it's totally not worth that massive LA.

With buyoff, and an underground campaign, I'd say black/low blue. Otherwise red.

Quote:

Saurian Shifter (Dragon Magazine 328)

I wouldn't recommend mentioning Dragon Magazine stuff in a handbook- it isn't 1st party, and a lot of people don't allow it.

I disagree. Players should know all of their options. Even if the DM doesn't accept it, the idea of a handbook is provide all relevant information. Just like LA buyoff, situations differ, but it's important to know what is a possibility.

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Those are pretty good bonuses. With buyoff, I agree that it's at the low end of Blue.

On the same page here.

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Again, don't bother with Dragon Mag- it isn't worth detailing all of its stuff in your guide; it's not 1st party and was generally not very consistently balanced.

See above.

Lateral · 11-12-2011, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TravelLog

This one I disagree with you on. If humans are light blue, then these guys are at the very least blue. In an underground campaign, they are better than humans IMO, so easily light blue under those circumstances. In a normal campaign, low end of blue because of light sensitivity, which can easily be overcome with equipment, like a custom pair of dark glasses.

I think that you're overselling the benefits it gives you. They just aren't that powerful; certainly nowhere near as good as a bonus feat and extra skill points. In an underground campaign, Blue due to the massive Hide bonus, but outside of that their benefits really are quite minor and situational.

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I think with the reroll/compulsion, they're blue/low end of light blue. Rerolls are golden in D&D, and to get one racially 1/day is pretty nice.

Hmm. That's true; free rerolls are rare and useful. All right, then Blue without buyoff and Cyan with.

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With buyoff, and an underground campaign, I'd say black/low blue. Otherwise red.

No. They have a +3 LA; you can't even buy off the first point of LA until level 9. I think you're overestimating the usefulness of buyoff and their abilities; it just isn't worth the +3 LA, even with buyoff.

TravelLog · 11-12-2011, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lateral

I think that you're overselling the benefits it gives you. They just aren't that powerful; certainly nowhere near as good as a bonus feat and extra skill points. In an underground campaign, Blue due to the massive Hide bonus, but outside of that their benefits really are quite minor and situational.

They get the human's extra skill points. All they miss out on is the feat.

Quote:

No. They have a +3 LA; you can't even buy off the first point of LA until level 9. I think you're overestimating the usefulness of buyoff and their abilities; it just isn't worth the +3 LA, even with buyoff.

I'll give you this one. I had forgotten about waiting until level 9.

Lateral · 11-12-2011, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TravelLog

They get the human's extra skill points. All they miss out on is the feat.

Oh. That changes things a bit. Still, I wouldn't peg them as blue in a non-underground campaign.

TravelLog · 11-12-2011, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lateral

Oh. That changes things a bit. Still, I wouldn't peg them as blue in a non-underground campaign.

True enough, Light Sensitivity is terrible if you actually have to deal with it regularly.

Also, thoughts about the Dragon Mag races? I know you don't agree with them, but I still think it's important to understand the available options, usable or not. Example, Cleric Handbooks almost always mention DMM stuff, even when a lot of DMs ban it, or at least nerf it.

Elfin · 11-12-2011, 05:14 PM

Unfortunately, the extra feat is what makes humans so good. Especially because it's not that difficult to get some form of darkvision, I just don't see underfolk being worth it.

As for Dragon Magazine stuff, it's different because of the fact that it's third party. For now at least I think it's best to include only first party options.

TravelLog · 11-12-2011, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfin

Unfortunately, the extra feat is what makes humans so good. Especially because it's not that difficult to get some form of darkvision, I just don't see underfolk being worth it.

As for Dragon Magazine stuff, it's different because of the fact that it's third party. For now at least I think it's best to include only first party options.

Fair enough I suppose. Some of the other stuff I provided should be useful at least.

Elfin · 11-12-2011, 05:34 PM

Oh, definitely - thanks for sharing it. In fact, I'll get to adding it in right now.

Lateral · 11-12-2011, 06:26 PM

The Shadow template's latest source is in Lords of Madness. It has a +2 LA.

TravelLog · 11-12-2011, 06:46 PM

Gnoll Flind and Underfolk got left out I think.

Elfin · 11-12-2011, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lateral

The Shadow template's latest source is in Lords of Madness. It has a +2 LA.

Ah; that makes much more sense. At LA +1 it seemed a little on the powerful side.

Underfolk I don't think makes the cut, as I'd put it at black. But you're right about flind gnoll - I forgot that one.

Lateral · 11-12-2011, 09:18 PM

I'll see if I can build a simple Ur-Vindicator build for the Builds section over the next week; I agree that that section could use some filling out.

Dusk Eclipse · 11-12-2011, 09:24 PM

Doesn't the Vindicators need Devoted Spirit? Which Warblade doesn't get access to.