Gesturecaster: A dexterity spellcaster (PEACH)

Qwertystop · 12-25-2010, 01:01 PM

Gesturecaster
A Dexterity and Constitution-based caster
EDIT: Turned out as a drastically improved wizard ripoff. I have replaced it with a PrC, but I preserved the original here, in the below spoiler. I do not reccomend use of the original, as it is even more broken than the Wizard.

Spoiler

A Dexterity and Constitution-based caster, as a Prestige class for non-casters

Level	Base Attack<br>Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Special	0lvl	1st	2nd
1st	+0	+0	+2	+0	Dextrous Spell	2
2nd	+1	+0	+3	+0		3	0
3rd	+1	+1	+3	+1		3	1
4th	+2	+1	+4	+1		3	2	0
5th	+2	+1	+4	+1		3	3	1

Class Features

Prerequisites: Sleight of Hand 8 ranks, Dexterity 16 or more.
Class Skills: Sleight of Hand (Dex), Escape Artist (Dex), Spellcraft (Int)
Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Gesturecasters are proficient with the club, dagger, quarterstaff, and unarmed strike, but not with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a gesturecaster’s movements, which can cause her spells to fail.

Spells
A gesturecaster casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A gesturecaster must choose and prepare spells ahead of time (see below).
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the gesturecaster must have a Dexterity score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a gesturecaster’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the gesturecaster’s Dexterity modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a gesturecaster can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given above. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Constitution score.
Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a gesturecaster may know any number of spells. She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour practicing the motions required to cast the spells she will prepare. Each day, the gesturecaster can only cast spells she has prepared, but may use any combination of the prepared spells. For example, a 3rd level gesturecaster could prepare Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Flare, and Sheild but could cast Prestidigitation 4 times, or Prestidigitation and Mage Hand twice each, or any other combination as long as no spell is cast from a slot lower than its own level. She may not prepare more spells at any level than she has spell slots for that level.

Dextrous Spell
A gesturecaster casts spells using only gestures, with no verbal components or understanding of the innate magical concepts. All spells cast by a gesturecaster require somatic components, and never require verbal components. If the spell normally has somatic components, then it has 5% higher ASF chance in light armor, 10% higher in medium armor, and 15% higher in heavy armor, in addition to any caused by the armor. A gesturecaster cannot learn the Still Spell or Silent Spell feats. A gesturecaster can substitute a Sleight of Hand check for a Concentration check to cast a spell while being distracted.
____________________________________________
Changes:

Switched the Spells per day to the Bard progression
Removed the bonus metamagic feat
Made it a 5-level PrC
Allowed Sleight of Hand to be used for Concentration
Added a list of class skills

____________________________________________

Questions? Comments? Suggestions?

Keinnicht · 12-25-2010, 01:04 PM

Oh, a full caster with two good saves who also is good with ranged weapons. And every spell he casts is silenced.

I think I might see an issue.

Qwertystop · 12-25-2010, 01:10 PM

Dropped Will to poor, removed crossbow proficiency.

Djinn_in_Tonic · 12-25-2010, 01:32 PM

I'll be honest...this is just a Wizard with a face-lift. You get a free Silent Spell with no metamagic cost, and are otherwise a Wizard with higher-than-average hit points, Fort, Reflex, and AC, as Dexterity and Constitution are important to you.

Further, there's no real effort put in to explaining why Dexterity makes your spells more powerful, nor why Constitution gives you extra spells. Constitution is sometimes associated with life-force and magic by proxy, but this class seems like it needs some serious fluff to explain it. Even if you DO explain it, though, the class itself is extremely bland, as it's basically just the Wizard again. I'd put a bit more thought into what your concept is, and design a class that offers interesting and unique abilities around that concept, rather than tacking a half-idea onto the Wizard and calling it a day. You could really go somewhere with the concept, but you need to delve a bit deeper into your inspiration and see if you can bring anything more unique to the table.

Qwertystop · 12-25-2010, 02:36 PM

My idea was essentially someone who just uses the somatic components of spells. Many spells have somatic components, so this just takes that to the extreme. Dexterity helps you make the gestures more effectively, and constitution is essentially because all the fine motions will give you a cramp eventually, so if you can keep going longer without cramping you can cast more.

I admit this was done terribly, but I wanted to give it a try. I wasn't sure how to do it other than by changing the wizard a bit. I figured that the increased ASF, impossibility of casting anything when unable to move (Hold Person, tied up, etc.) and the lack of Scribe Scroll compensated for the constant Silent Spell and the slightly less restrictive spell preparation, but I guess I was wrong.

Djinn_in_Tonic · 12-25-2010, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by master256

I wasn't sure how to do it other than by changing the wizard a bit. I figured that the increased ASF, impossibility of casting anything when unable to move (Hold Person, tied up, etc.) and the lack of Scribe Scroll compensated for the constant Silent Spell and the slightly less restrictive spell preparation, but I guess I was wrong.

The problem is that the spell preparation gives the Gesturecaster much more versatility than a Wizard, and Wizards are already incredibly powerful due to their ability to prepare anything. Now, you can prepare anything, and only use those prepared spells that are useful.

Actually, I hadn't noticed that the first time. It's crazy good. As for ASF and the unable to move part...any Wizard wearing armor is a somewhat stupid Wizard, and Contingency and Freedom of Movement exist for a reason.

Personally, I'd love to see some more creative stuff here, if you've got any ideas. What sort of abilities could you see this using above and beyond normal spellcasting?

Qwertystop · 12-25-2010, 03:36 PM

Maybe making some of the parts into feats:
the Dextrous Spell ability from 1st level, as a feat, with a dexterity pre-req.
Some cantrips as SLAs, again a Dexterity DC.
The versatility in preparation, as a feat for prepared casters.

Not sure beyond that. Now I think about it, it might be better as a spellcasting PrC for rogues and similar, only going 5th level and without the metamagic. If you think that would work, I'll refix it for that. This is my first attempt at homebrew, unless you count my Split-personality template, so I wasn't expecting it to be very good at first.

EDIT: Incidentally, the bit of versatility in preparing is something that I thought should have been in prepared casting from the beginning. Why should someone have to memorize something 3 times to cast it 3 times in a day? It's the same spell! For an intelligence-based class, Wizards sure are forgetful.

Djinn_in_Tonic · 12-25-2010, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by master256

Not sure beyond that. Now I think about it, it might be better as a spellcasting PrC for rogues and similar, only going 5th level and without the metamagic. If you think that would work, I'll refix it for that. This is my first attempt at homebrew, unless you count my Split-personality template, so I wasn't expecting it to be very good at first.

Don't worry about it...I'm not really criticizing the attempt, just trying to direct you in the direction of thought that I personally find helpful for homebrew.

I think you're definitely on the right track with it as a Wizard or Rogue/Wizard PrC, perhaps requiring the Silent Spell feat to enter. Then you can do things like give Silent Spell for free, allow certain spells (or certain spells prepared specially ahead of time) to be cast as Swift or Immediate actions (with a single gesture, for instance), maybe use Sleight of Hand in place of Concentration for spell-casting, granting things like Mage Hand as at-will Spell-like abilities...things like that. Merge mundane motion and magic into a seamless whole, basing the class around interesting new abilities rather than adapted existing things. I think the result would make more sense as a PrC, and, additionally, make the end result have more focus and be a stronger concept in general.

Feel free to contact me with any homebrew questions, by the way. It's something I've spent a long time working on, and, if you want reviews or critiques of your work at any point, I'm always more than happy to help aspiring homebrewers troubleshoot their creations. The more of us there are making things, the better the support for the game in general!

Havvy · 12-25-2010, 03:51 PM

There is a reason that 99% of spellcasting uses a mental stat instead of a physical stat. It's called balance and not becoming single-ability-dependent.

Temotei · 12-26-2010, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Havvy

There is a reason that 99% of spellcasting uses a mental stat instead of a physical stat. It's called balance and not becoming single-ability-dependent.

This uses two ability scores to use their only class feature. Wizards use one.

Sure, it's easier to get a higher AC than the ordinary wizard this way, but it's also harder to get bonus spell slots, which are pretty awesome to have.

In the end, I think they break about even.

Note: This post is only about ability score dependency.

Tvtyrant · 12-26-2010, 01:51 AM

What you could do is retain the spellcasting system but use the Bardic progression. Then you can revert to two good saves and armor without it being unbalanced. So essentially a more spell based Bard; maybe give it some spell tricks like permanent free metamagic for first level spells; so you end up with the ability to use a first level spell as a swift action each turn without using higher spells slots.

Temotei · 12-26-2010, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tvtyrant

...so you end up with the ability to use a first level spell as a swift action each turn without using higher spells slots.

That's probably not a good idea. Magic missile becomes a nightmare when you apply that metamagic that gives 1 negative level per hit. Quicken it, too, and you've got a free "I win" button on top of all your other buttons.

Now, if it was just one metamagic, it might be okay.

The above ability also doesn't really fit with the whole "I'm quick and nimble, so I'm pretty good as casting" shtick, though. I can think of one or two ways it might fit, but it would be a stretch.

Keinnicht · 12-26-2010, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Temotei

This uses two ability scores to use their only class feature. Wizards use one.

Yes, but these are physical ability scores. A wizard with high intelligence gets these benefits:

-More skill points
-Being better at being a wizard
-That's about it

This guy, needing to keep his DEX and CON gets these benefits:

-Being better at being a Nimblecaster
-Higher AC
-Better Reflex saves
-More hit points
-Better Fortitude saves
-Better ranged attack rolls

You see the issue? The thing with being a wizard is that increasing your intelligence doesn't give you much benefit other than improving your spellcasting. It forces you to make a choice - be less frail and bad in combat, or to be better at your chosen class. Using Dex and Con as your spellcasting attributes doesn't force you to make that choice - getting better at spellcasting means more hit points, better saves, and better attacks. This is why, as others have said, physical attributes are not generally used as spellcasting attributes.

This class isn't balanced against the most broken class in the game. You took a Tier 1 class and made it significantly better.

Qwertystop · 12-26-2010, 08:01 PM

Thanks for your suggestions everyone. I am working on them, but I do the work in a Word document to avoid putting up something half-completed.

Temotei · 12-26-2010, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keinnicht

Yes, but these are physical ability scores. A wizard with high intelligence gets these benefits:

-More skill points
-Being better at being a wizard
-That's about it

This guy, needing to keep his DEX and CON gets these benefits:

-Being better at being a Nimblecaster
-Higher AC
-Better Reflex saves
-More hit points
-Better Fortitude saves
-Better ranged attack rolls

Wizards still boost these statistics. In the end, I'm betting that the gesturecaster will have about the same Constitution as a wizard, as Constitution is the second-choice score, usually. Wizards only need Intelligence to boost their spellcasting. Since spellcasting covers pretty much everything in the game, other ability scores are really just secondary useful things to have boosted.

Also, you forgot that initiative gets a bonus from Dexterity.

Really, it could come down to what type of caster you're building. If it's a ranged touch spell caster, this wins pretty much hands down.

Quote:

This class isn't balanced against the most broken class in the game. You took a Tier 1 class and made it significantly better.

The main unbalancing point about this class compared to the wizard is preparation of spells combined with spontaneous spell slots (prepare these three spells with the ability to cast them six times total). That gives them more versatility than the wizard, which is the true breaking point.

Dead_Jester · 12-27-2010, 12:02 PM

The problem here isn't if Dex and Con spellcasting is better than Int spellcasting because the difference is purely superficial, as the main thing for casters are spells. It doesn't matter if they are better with rays or if they have better AC. The only thing that could be a problem would be initiative, but any Wizard worth his salt always uses Nerveskitter anyways.

Like others said, the main problem here is the Spirit Shaman style casting with the Wizard spell list. Although this doesn't make it any stronger, it does make it more versatile in any given day, especially when combined with the huge versatility of the Wizard spell list.

In the end, if this is stronger than straight Wizard is debatable (as this doesn't seem to be able to specialize), but it is more versatile.

Popertop · 12-28-2010, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Temotei

That's probably not a good idea. Magic missile becomes a nightmare when you apply that metamagic that gives 1 negative level per hit. Quicken it, too, and you've got a free "I win" button on top of all your other buttons.

Now, if it was just one metamagic, it might be okay.

The above ability also doesn't really fit with the whole "I'm quick and nimble, so I'm pretty good as casting" shtick, though. I can think of one or two ways it might fit, but it would be a stretch.

I would never allow that metamagic. I also think negative levels (and level drain) are the worst part of this game.

Qwertystop · 12-28-2010, 08:38 AM

A Dexterity and Constitution-based caster, as a Prestige class for non-casters

Level	Base Attack<br>Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Special	0lvl	1st	2nd
1st	+0	+0	+2	+0	Dextrous Spell	2
2nd	+1	+0	+3	+0		3	0
3rd	+1	+1	+3	+1		3	1
4th	+2	+1	+4	+1		3	2	0
5th	+2	+1	+4	+1		3	3	1

Class Features

Prerequisites: Sleight of Hand 8 ranks, Dexterity 16 or more.
Class Skills: Sleight of Hand (Dex), Escape Artist (Dex), Spellcraft (Int)
Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Gesturecasters are proficient with the club, dagger, quarterstaff, and unarmed strike, but not with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a gesturecaster’s movements, which can cause her spells to fail.

Spells
A gesturecaster casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A gesturecaster must choose and prepare spells ahead of time (see below).
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the gesturecaster must have a Dexterity score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a gesturecaster’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the gesturecaster’s Dexterity modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a gesturecaster can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given above. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Constitution score.
Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a gesturecaster may know any number of spells. She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour practicing the motions required to cast the spells she will prepare. Each day, the gesturecaster can only cast spells she has prepared, but may use any combination of the prepared spells. For example, a 3rd level gesturecaster could prepare Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Flare, and Sheild but could cast Prestidigitation 4 times, or Prestidigitation and Mage Hand twice each, or any other combination as long as no spell is cast from a slot lower than its own level. She may not prepare more spells at any level than she has spell slots for that level.

Dextrous Spell
A gesturecaster casts spells using only gestures, with no verbal components or understanding of the innate magical concepts. All spells cast by a gesturecaster require somatic components, and never require verbal components. If the spell normally has somatic components, then it has 5% higher ASF chance in light armor, 10% higher in medium armor, and 15% higher in heavy armor, in addition to any caused by the armor. A gesturecaster cannot learn the Still Spell or Silent Spell feats. A gesturecaster can substitute a Sleight of Hand check for a Concentration check to cast a spell while being distracted.
____________________________________________
Changes:

Switched the Spells per day to the Bard progression
Removed the bonus metamagic feat
Made it a 5-level PrC
Allowed Sleight of Hand to be used for Concentration
Added a list of class skills

____________________________________________

Questions? Comments? Suggestions?

Keinnicht · 12-28-2010, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popertop

I would never allow that metamagic. I also think negative levels (and level drain) are the worst part of this game.

Indeed. I don't even like ability drain. It's just obnoxious.

Also, I honestly think this class is a bit underpowered now. Perhaps change the spellcasting to +1 of existing arcane spellcasting class, and let wizards have casting dextrous spells as an option?

Qwertystop · 12-28-2010, 11:39 AM

The point of this class, as a PrC, is to give a bit of spelcasting to Dexterity based classes.