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Old 01-07-2011, 02:55 PM   Top  -  End  -  #1
MammonAzrael
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Default [3.5 Template] So you want to be a natural Warlock?

Pact Descendant

A pact descendant is a creature that has a dark shadow in it's heritage. One of it's ancestors at some point made a pact with a demon or fae, trading away their soul or innocence for a promise of power or influence, or perhaps even was a mystical being. The legacy of which has manifested in the pact descendant in a dark arcane power that he can bring to bear.

Creating a Pact Descendant
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Pact Heir

A pact heir is a creature that has awakened their arcane heritage, and has embraced it. They have explored the darkness running through their veins. Some have made peace with it, others fight it, but all use it.

Creating a Pact Heir
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What do you think? Is this too powerful for +1/+2 LA? Not powerful enough? Would you take it? Would you take it even if you weren’t considering taking levels in Warlock?

Since pacts don’t grant any singular specific bonuses, I tried to make a decent variety, to give the feeling that lots of different people have made pacts for the power they wanted, which obviously differs from person to person. I would welcome any suggestions for more Special Attacks and Qualities, as these are just some options I thought up and certainly they are not exhaustive.

3/5/2012 Note - These templates are based off of the warlock as presented in Complete Arcane, not the homebrew version of the class I created. That is why all the abilities are demonically flavored, instead of offering a broader range of “gifts.” If you want to combine the two it shouldn’t present an issue, just refluff the abilities you want to fit your chosen heritage. Drop the planetouched subtype when appropriate.

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Old 01-07-2011, 04:09 PM   Top  -  End  -  #2
Pyromancer999
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] Want to be a natural Warlock?

Not bad, but I'd change the name to Pact-Blooded/Descendant, as it's not only demons who make pacts. Looks good as-is.
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Old 01-07-2011, 04:14 PM   Top  -  End  -  #3
MammonAzrael
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] Want to be a natural Warlock?

The name was one of the things that took me the longest. Pact-blooded does work better for allowing the Fae angle, and I did avoid anything specifically demonic. Still doesn't quite ring perfectly, but it's better, so I'll take it. Thanks.
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Old 01-07-2011, 04:59 PM   Top  -  End  -  #4
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] Want to be a natural Warlock?

I don't think this is overpowered in the least for a +1, in fact, i think it may even be underpowered. Take a look at Feral, it is a +1 and gets a ton more than this template does. (I know, Feral is overpowered, but hey, its a WOTC template...) Dark is another on I like, +1, gets a few extra goodies than this one does.

I would consider adding something small from your list of suggestions, like maybe the AC bonus, or the CHA boost. I think the fast healing or the DR are a bit much, without bumping it to +2, but it seems pretty cool to me.

This definitely makes the Supernatural Transformation feat a must for people who continue the warlock class. I would consider using it if i go for another warlock.
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Old 01-07-2011, 05:13 PM   Top  -  End  -  #5
MammonAzrael
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] Want to be a natural Warlock?

Yeah, I don't want Feral. I was trying to think of a balanced +1 LA template and could only think of Mineral Warrior, which is on the high side of strong. I forgot about Dark, that's a good one.

The one I was leaning towards the most was another +2 to Cha. It fits nicely, and encourages your Natural Invocation to have a save.

I agree that Fast Healing (even temporary FH), or any DR high enough to be relevant, would be too strong for a +1 LA.

I'm glad you like it. If you do decide to use it, be sure to let me know how it goes!
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Old 01-07-2011, 06:23 PM   Top  -  End  -  #6
Pyromancer999
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] Want to be a natural Warlock?

If you had the time and wanted to power it up a little, you could always grant a benefit based on the type of pact made.
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Old 01-07-2011, 07:16 PM   Top  -  End  -  #7
MammonAzrael
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] Want to be a natural Warlock?

True...although that feels more like an Evolved Undead style template change to me. An additional template that requires this one first. While Warlock fluff seems to operate under the assumption that the powers are demonic in origin, I know it leaves enough leeway to include Fae (or whatever else a DM feels like including). So having the generic one feels right...

I think I'll work up a pact-specific bonus template though, as it could be nifty and fun.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:51 PM   Top  -  End  -  #8
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] Want to be a natural Warlock?

my only suggestion is to make eldritch blast and invocations scale. certainly keep them well below a warlock's progression, but something like:
eldritch blast: 1d6 at 1st level, with a +1d6 every 5 levels after that (so 4d6 at 16th level).

invocations: one least invocation at 1st level, and another least invocation every 5 levels after that (so 4 least invocations at 16th level).
my reasoning is that warlock is generally an underpowered class as it is, though really cool. after 2nd level or so, a 1d6 eldritch blast is absolutely useless to everyone but a rogue and a smattering of other classes in an even narrower smattering of circumstances.

and a single least invocation is cool, but i don't think that it makes a few ability bonuses and the aforementioned mostly useless 1d6 blast equal to a +1 LA template.

personal thoughts though.
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Old 01-08-2011, 04:34 PM   Top  -  End  -  #9
MammonAzrael
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] Want to be a natural Warlock?

I completely agree with the scaling damage for eldritch blast. My worry is that having that much extra damage from only a single LA will make any Warlock want this without hesitation. Although a 13d6 is a whole ~14 more damage, so it isn't really that scary.

While a 4d6 ranged touch attack isn't too much more useful to most classes than a 1d6, at least it looks more impressive. (and feels better to roll!)

Right now I'm working on some extra templates that are specific to creatures that granted the pact, and they'll grant scaling damage.

The thing I like about the Invocations is that even the Least ones remain fairly relevant at higher levels. Well, some become obsolete, but some are still useful. I could see an extra couple invocations, and it wouldn't be terrible unbalancing.



The biggest difficulty I'm facing is not overshadowing the Warlock class too much. As you said, it is a rather mediocre class when it comes to power, regardless of how cool it is. I suppose that no matter how I tweak it, pretty much any Warlock would be happy to pick up this template. So I just have to stop worrying about that. And stop assuming LA buyoff is an easy answer, as it is a variant rule.

Thanks for the input, great personal thoughts.
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Old 01-08-2011, 07:34 PM   Top  -  End  -  #10
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] Want to be a natural Warlock?

One thought MIGHT be to make only half of the EB dice (rounded UP) stack with those from other sources.
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Old 01-08-2011, 08:07 PM   Top  -  End  -  #11
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] Want to be a natural Warlock?

Cursed Bloodline seems like a cooler name for an ability.
I agree with the stacking damage, just plain added to the warlock's ability.
But actually, you can get DR 2/cold iron at first level; it's not too hard to accomplish. One idea that you might use is that you get DR X/Cold iron, starting at one, increasing by 1 every 3 levels, fast healing 2 at third level that activates when you're below half health, +1 every 4 levels, and Eldritch Blast +1d6 at 5th level, and every 5 levels thereafter. At first level, you get an Eldritch Blast attack, which does not stack with the Eldritch blast attack from a warlock. However, a warlock with this ability can make a full attack with his Eldritch Blast. This template is a gimme for warlock characters, yes, but it could definitely fit with the flavor and give them a much-needed boost at the higher levels when the damage gets less impressive, and covers many of the flaws of the warlock class, at the levels that need it.
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Old 01-09-2011, 12:22 AM   Top  -  End  -  #12
MammonAzrael
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] Want to be a natural Warlock?

@ Dracodei - Interesting idea. Depending on how much I add to the template, this may be a good option.

@ DMofDarkness - I like that name so much more. I'm thinking of changing the template name to that...though it could be a nifty attack, too.

You agree that the damage should stack with the Warlock's EB? Does this mean you agree with the increased damage too I take it?

The DR or Fast healing I can get behind, but I don't want to overload it with features. I think it boils down to the point that whatever the template grants needs to scale. This can and will be done.
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Old 01-10-2011, 03:04 AM   Top  -  End  -  #13
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] So you want to be a natural Warlock?

So, big update to the first template, which is now Pact Descendant. And the addition of the second template, Pact Heir.

Thoughts?
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Old 01-10-2011, 03:21 AM   Top  -  End  -  #14
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] So you want to be a natural Warlock?

so I could be a Pact Descendant Warlock, get smacked in the face with Convenientium some point in the campaign and also become a Pact Heir - I'm now a warlock with essentially a +2 to caster level EB? sorry if that's wrong. Combine that with Warlock's Scepter and the other EB boosting goodies and you're really cooking with gas

and toward the endgame you'd have all the really useful least/lesser invocations (flying, sight-based, skill enhance..) ? *low whistle*

maybe I've just spelled out the stupidly obvious, but what can I say? I'm stupid and obvious. I'd totally play a PD/PH. Hell, it'd grant me access to Eldritch Theurge without taking levels in Warlock...hmmmm, so many ideas
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Old 01-10-2011, 03:40 AM   Top  -  End  -  #15
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] So you want to be a natural Warlock?

Good work, I like it.

However, I think it scales a bit too well, stepping on Warlock's toes. It is very awesome due to the Alignment restriction lifting, as well as the Instictive Darkness feat from Drow of the Underdark. You can create darkness as an At-Will immediate action... I've lost the HD, BA, Skills and Saves, but I got some good ability boosts and decent abilities, and all the class features of a 1st level warlock. In Gestalt this is really quite good.

Blood Magic, however, is really really bad. The boost isn't actually that huge, but the penalty is immense. 2 Con damage may sound like small, but in practice it's really bad. Perhaps change it to +2 CL and +2 Save DC, for 1 constitution damage?
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Old 01-10-2011, 04:24 AM   Top  -  End  -  #16
MammonAzrael
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] So you want to be a natural Warlock?

@ tzaan - Well really you're getting smack in the face with Convenientium when you were born with the template. Although there is no reason having that template is what caused you to become a Warlock in the first place. Researching your past and your powers, especially if you're a Warlock, makes perfect sense nearly any way you swing it.

But no, you wouldn't be rocking a +2 CL. You'd be getting extra EB damage, +3d6 to be precise (14 extra damage on average) at 20th level, assuming no LA buyoff. And even with the buyoff your EB would be at 14d6...hardly backbreaking, but certainly a good boost, since Warlock's damage is pretty bad for a blaster.

Yeah, you should have access to most of the Least/Lesser Invocations you want. I'm not sure if I'm happy with the scaling knowledge of invocations. Though I'd mind it a lot less if there were a lot more options to choose from (like say...homebrew invocations )

@ Cadian 9th - the scaling numbers need to be played with, these are just estimates. I want the template to be worth taking, by classes other than Warlock. But the problem is the Warlock is inherently not a powerful class, regardless of how much awesome flavor it has, and so I'm afraid some toe-stepping will happen. This is part of why I've wanted everything to stack with what the Warlock already gets; if everyone gets the same boost from it, then the Warlock is still happy, but if the Warlock doesn't get as much, there is even less reason to actually be a Warlock. Additionally I'd like it to be a relevant template to slap on a monster.

Also, a +1 template based on the warlock should be roughly equivalent to the first level in warlock. Don't you think?

That said, it is possible that all the scaling abilities need to be increased in scale by a HD or two.

As for Blood Magic...I'm wary, because I didn't want to spawn cheese. I was considering several ideas - Xd6 damage, damage equal to your HD, damage equal to your Cha score, 1 Con burn...I decided to go safe. Of course, I was also considering allowing you to spend 2/4/6/etc Con to boost the DC an equivalent amount, not just limiting to a flat 2 for 2. And it really should boost CL.

I need to go to bed for now, but I'll be updating it tomorrow. Thanks for the input, both of you.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:07 AM   Top  -  End  -  #17
tzaan
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] So you want to be a natural Warlock?

Quote:
Yeah, you should have access to most of the Least/Lesser Invocations you want. I'm not sure if I'm happy with the scaling knowledge of invocations. Though I'd mind it a lot less if there were a lot more options to choose from (like say...homebrew invocations )
I've got a buttload of rulebooks with additional invocations/ invocations you can nick from other casters and repurpose - draconomicon and suchlike. I forget the actual books (got so many of 'em) but in the end, with a few magic items to supplement, a Warlock could almost be self-sufficient, no? Flying, self-healing, DR, skill enhancement, darkvision, see invisibility...it's a pony with not just one trick but a whole damn carnival.

I'm trying to beat together an 'Eldritch Artificer' PrC that would allow me to craft any item that I wouldn't have an invocation for (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...64#post9509864 almost cuts the mustard) and with these templates I wouldn't have to worry about dead levels as much when I'm pitching it to a DM
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Old 01-10-2011, 08:38 PM   Top  -  End  -  #18
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] So you want to be a natural Warlock?

Official invocations are located in Complete Mage and Dragon Magic, I believe. There are also some hiding in Dragon Magazine. And you ultimately have a decent selection, its just that Invocations are so nifty I'd like to see more.

Updated Blood Magic, and I'm thinking of removing the scaling invocations learning for Natural Invocation. With the additions of Cursed Bloodline, I don't think the templates need to keep learning new Invocations.
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Old 01-10-2011, 09:29 PM   Top  -  End  -  #19
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] So you want to be a natural Warlock?

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Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
Official invocations are located in Complete Mage and Dragon Magic, I believe. There are also some hiding in Dragon Magazine. And you ultimately have a decent selection, its just that Invocations are so nifty I'd like to see more.

Updated Blood Magic, and I'm thinking of removing the scaling invocations learning for Natural Invocation. With the additions of Cursed Bloodline, I don't think the templates need to keep learning new Invocations.
Blood Magic is now a little bit too powerful - contrary to common belief, Warlocks do not always need charisma; Only if they want to add effects like shaken and sickened, then more awesome ones later... Certainly, these templates do not mind a creature with low charisma. The abudance of small healing possible and temporary hit points make the downside neglible.

From an optimization point of view (I love these templates), I'd go for a dwarven Pact Heir wizard with Dark Power and Enhanced Ability (Int), and Blood Magic - I'd be starting with +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 int, -2 Cha, dwarf abilities etc. Dark power would be a handy boost. I'd put an 8 in Charisma, take the Pathetic Charisma flaw, for Charisma 4. For 4 damage to myself (With my +4 con) I've got +2d6 damage with fireball and +2 DC, which is nifty.

Perhaps take it to 1 constitution damage? Every two uses reduces your actual HP by your character level? That damage can't be healed back short of a 3 round lesser restoration (Or less at higher levels, but at higher levels its impact is lessened somewhat) and doesn't care about temporary hit points. It also adds a hard limit to the maximum number of augments you can make, short of restoration.
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Old 01-10-2011, 10:14 PM   Top  -  End  -  #20
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] So you want to be a natural Warlock?

No, but the creature will have a required +4 to Charisma. Just trying something out, honestly. My biggest concern with 1 Con damage is I don't want Naberius shenanigans. Which is why it was initially 2 Con damage. But 1 Con burn feels a little too steep, and makes it an ability that would be rarely used.

I'm not sure how your Drawf managed those stats...from what I can see he'd have +4 Dex, +2/4Con, +0/2 Int, and +2 Cha.

I see what you're talking about regardless though.

And while awesome, I'm thinking Dark Power is just too strong. Probably needs to be cut in half or more, considering it is unrestricted bonus damage. At lv 20 a flat +18 is more than 5d6 to every single damage roll.
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Old 01-10-2011, 10:49 PM   Top  -  End  -  #21
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] So you want to be a natural Warlock?

Silly me, I missed the " Pact heir can be applied to any corpereal creature with the Pact Descendent template. " >.<

Even better, +4 dex, +4 con, -2 Wis.

I know I just did the opti-fu example, but really, optimizers are always going to be able to use something in an overpowered way. It's our gift.

Naberius actually really suits the character, in my opinion, giving you silver tongue and skills. The faster ability healing essentially is giving you 1 free +2 CL and +2 DC per round but does mean if you have an uneven con score you'll be losing HP regardless for that round. The key is that it's once per round. This makes up for the lost caster levels from Naberius and the Templates.

You see? The +2 CL and +2 Save dc is good since it covers the templates. Now I tinkered with some builds, it seems actually quite balanced.
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Old 01-10-2011, 11:30 PM   Top  -  End  -  #22
MammonAzrael
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] So you want to be a natural Warlock?

I know that optimizers will always try to break things. And I've got no problem with that!

I also agree that Naberius fits in well with this template...should I just not worry about it? After all, whoever aims for it will have to sacrifice another level to get the ability healing. And obviously there will be plenty of characters that wouldn't choose Blood Magic in the first place. Yes, I think I just convinced myself.

And yeah, you can't be an heir without being a descendant!
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Old 01-11-2011, 01:20 AM   Top  -  End  -  #23
Cadian 9th
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] So you want to be a natural Warlock?

Yeah. A lot of homebrewer's beat themselves up about it. You want to keep it in mind, I think, but make sure it's balanced for normal play and that's it.

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Old 01-12-2011, 05:17 AM   Top  -  End  -  #24
MammonAzrael
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Default Re: [3.5 Template] So you want to be a natural Warlock?

Ya. And at this point I'm getting close to happy with the balance of it. It's certainly a template I'd consider taking.

Now I'm thinking it simply may scale a little too much. I'm thinking about removing the scaling invocation gains (so you'd only get one least/lesser invocation), and toning down some of the Cursed bloodline scaling...especially Dark Power. It's like Craven+ and that feat is already kinda dumb.
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