Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
New thread time!
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Cheesegear presentsCheesegear's Newbie Guide on How to pick Warhammer 40K army, by Cheesegear (and contributors).
Spoiler
Disclaimer: This is not a guide to say which armies are 'better' than other armies. Except in hyperbole. The 'stars' notation is for what Newbies should play. By no means does this mean that you shouldn't play Chaos Daemons. It means that if you're a new player and don't fully understand the rules to the game, it might be hard to make Daemons work.
Any unit that gets specifically mentioned is a stand-out unit, or will represent a 'must-have' unit that the army has.
General Advice for all armies;
Spoiler
Where possible, you should always talk to a GW Staff Member. No, you don't have to actually listen to or do anything they say. But, you should at least talk to them so they can point you in at least a general direction. Don't buy anything on your first trip into the store. GW Staff are very persuasive, and you can - or will - often end up buying something you don't even want.
If and when you do finally decide on an army, play a few games in an actual GW Store using the Store's models. Otherwise, where possible, use proxy models. This will give you a basic understanding of most of the rules and the turn sequence and a general idea of how your army-of-choice plays. Or, at least give you an idea that an army or unit that you thought was cool, really isn't. Or maybe that particular army just isn't for you. And that unit that 'looks cool' doesn't fit your play style.
Read a Codex. Whatever gets said on the internet, means absolutely nothing if you don't have a Codex to understand what's being said. This ties into the above in that it's kind of important that you have played a few games and know the rules.
GW doesn't mention it all that much, but; You don't have to use your army's Codex for your army. For example; It's perfectly reasonable to, say, use the Chaos Space Marine Codex to represent a 1st Company of Loyalist Marines. You can, in fact, use Imperial Guard models to represent Tau, or Eldar. Just so long as your models look suitably awesome and your models conform to the rules of a different list (the WYSIWYG rule). If you can also give a background justification - or 'fluffy' reason - for why your Imperial Guard are wielding Shuriken or Pulse Rifles; Even better!
In regards to the above; 'Counts as' models can generally be shown to be a fluffy reason for why you have what you have. So, maybe your Imperial Guard regiment has a lot of Ogryns. You can use an Ogryn-holding-a-Lascannon as your 'Heavy Weapon Team'. As long as it's WYSIWYG, and at least makes a passing attempt at conforming to the rules (such as base size/shape), nobody cares. However, GW really doesn't like it when you come into their store and start using a different company's miniatures to play a GW game. However, making a scratch-build from Green Stuff and Plasticard is totally okay. Just so long as you aren't giving their competitors money, eh?
With that said; Painting, Green Stuff, Plasticard and Conversions in general, the only way to get better at it, is to practice. Start easy, start small. Start with adding cloaks to troops. Large, rectangular pieces of Green Stuff. Easy. Maybe you'll be confident to add textures. Ability comes with practice. And, there are literally dozens of tutorials to be found on YouTube. And hundreds of tutorials just about everywhere else.
Less is more. Don't try to equip your unit to do everything. Assign your units to fulfill a role, and let them do it. Don't waste points on things you aren't going to use.
Bodies are far more important than Wargear. Do not spend 100 extra points on Wargear, if you could otherwise spend 100 points on buying a whole unit. Wargear is not a substitute for models. Well, it is. But, it's a poor substitute.
In regards to the above two points, very rarely, should you spend more than 200 points on a single model (such as an HQ model), or 300 points on a single unit.
Troops. Win. Games. Do not, under any circumstances, skimp out on your Troops selection. More often than not they are the cheapest unit in the Codex, and, Troops are the only units who can capture an objective. Any unit can contest an objective, but, only Troops can claim objectives. All contesting objectives will do is get you is a Draw.
Assault on Black Reach. Bad for Space Marine players. Good for Ork Players.
Pros: Space Marines are the eponymous 40K army. They are the army by which all other armies are judged. Just about all their units can be outfitted in many different ways to fulfill many different roles (but, in regards to General Advice, they should only try to do one thing at a time). With few exceptions, the entire army selection is plastic for easy conversions and assembly (and, most of the metal models you don't even need). As plastics, the army is also relatively cheap to buy.
GW Staff are extremely knowledgeable on all things Space Marine.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
Power Armour and Bolters.
Cons: Honestly, none. Save for the common misinformation that GW Staff will tell you to get you to buy certain units and sets (like Assault on Black Reach). But, this is by no means bad. As a Space Marine is a Space Marine. And pretty much all the units in the Codex can be useful one way or another.
One such example is that there is a growing proportion of Space Marine players who feel - despite the fluff and the statline - that Scout Squads are superior to Tactical Squads (the reason why is outside the scope of this guide).
The only truly bad thing about Space Marines, is that everybody has them. GW sells them at every opportunity. All starter sets ever produced by GW has contained Space Marines as one of the 'learner' armies. By extension, a lot of people turn to Space Marines because that's what they learned the game with, but, what they don't realise, is that the Assault on Black Reach starter kit is weak.
Recommendation for Newbs; *****. But the Assault on Black Reach kit isn't a good start to a Space Marine army. GW likes misinformation.
* or ** depending on whether or not you care about being 'just like everyone else'. What's so bad about AoBR?
Codex Space Marines theoretically allows you to build 7 different 'themes' of Space Marines (even though it's 6) based around what colours and which Special Characters you like. However, any special character can be used in any Chapter, painted any colour that you choose. So, really, what Chapter you choose is kind of irrelevant since you can use other Chapters' special characters anyway.
The common belief is that 'Space Marines is Space Marines'. They all have Power Armour and Bolters. All of the above applies to the below; Dark Angels: Outdated Codex. A few minor differences. Many people are best off going with Codex Marines rather than playing by Dark Angels rules. The only reason to play Dark Angels is for Ravenwing. And, even then, sometimes you might be better off with Codex Marines with a 'Captain on Bike'. * Black Templars: Outdated Codex. Slightly more focused on close combat. With some unique rules. *** Space Wolves: Space Wolves are actually the 'most fair' list out of all the Space Marine variants. They're a solid list. They have no actual 'bad' or 'trap' units. **** Blood Angels: The only real difference in the List is more options to take Jump Packs, Fast vehicles, and a slight bonus to Deep Striking. Staggeringly similar to Codex Marines otherwise and you wont actually lose much by playing Blood Angels. ****
If you don't understand just what it is that makes these Chapters unique as opposed Codex Marines (read their respective Codecies), or you don't like or don't plan on using what makes them unique; You're better off sticking to Codex Marines. You can still paint your Space Marines as Blood Angels and use Codex Marines.
Chaos Space Marines (Chaos Marines, CSMs):
Spoiler
Like Space Marines, but Evil. So, just about everything that applies to Space Marines applies to Chaos Space Marines. Pros: Chaos Space Marines are slightly more focused on close combat than their Imperial counterparts - but, by no means to they have to be. CSMs are not necessarily 'better' than regular SMs. Just...Different. Each faction has different toys at their disposal.
There are a variety of different ways you can outfit your squads, and it's kind of difficult to find any two CSM armies the same.
Power Armour and Bolters.
Converting your 'Starter Box' Space Marine army to Chaos Marines is fairly easy. Just add spikes and arrows and mutations.
Cons: There are options in the Codex. Too many options some say. It's very easy to get confused on what or what not to get for your squads and characters. And it's even easier to go overboard on wargear and skills and the like (remember; Wargear != Bodies).
CSMs are also a fairly commonly seen army as they cater to the people who want to play Space Marines, but, think that 'Evil is Cool'. Some do consider who they get associated with as a bad thing.
The 'some of everything' approach that a lot of new players have when collecting their armies doesn't really work for Chaos Marines. Most of the time, you're best off going all-out on one or two of the Cult units (below).
Recommendation for Newbies: ****
Chaos Space Marines (Cults):
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Contributions supplied by Winterwind, DaedalusMkV and unknowingly by Myatar Panwar
World Eaters/Khorne-based/Beserkers:
Lots of attacks...Aaand...That's about it. Khorne Beserkers have WS 5 and also gain Furious Charge, meaning that when Assaulting, they're hitting and wounding most things on 3s and 2/3s. Their initiative 5 (when Assaulting) helps them a lot when they can strike before most enemies and kill them before they get attacks back. Khorne Berzerkers are fairly good at what they do, but, their individual unit effectiveness is directly proportional to their opponent's armour save.
Meaning, that, for the most part, you need lots of Beserkers. Lots. Khorne Beserker armies also don't function very well without Rhinos, as their only ranged weapons are Pistols. So, this is a lot of currency. On top of which; As they lack ranged weapons, Obliterators, Vindicators and Defilers are almost required for the army.
Khorne Lords and Daemon Princes are considered to be the least efficient. The Daemon Weapon gives you double the chance to hurt yourself. As well as +2D6 Power Weapon attacks is pretty much overkill. You don't really need that many.
Their special character - Kharn - is quite good though.
*** You will need Rhinos. Luckily, Berzerkers come in boxes of 12 (which is more than the other Cult units) and are plastic. Which is good.
Thousand Sons/Tzeentch-based:
All models with the Mark of Tzeentch gain an Invulnerable save. Or, their save gets improved if they already have one. This makes Tzeentch-based lists very tough to kill on the outset.
Onto specialised units; Thousand Sons are a Troop choice that comes with a 4+ invulnerable save, and have AP3 Bolters. Perfect for objective-squatting. This also makes them deadly in ranged firefights - and their invulnerable save makes them hard to kill on the return. Being Slow and Purposeful, it's a good idea to get as much use our their Bolters as you can get.
Thousand Sons also have a Sorcerer as their 'Sergeant'. Chaos Psychic Powers being as they are, this is quite good, as most 'shooting' powers tend to be AP3 or better, or allow no save at all. The Sorcerer also comes with a Force Weapon (add Warptime for fun). Meaning units with an Independent Character kind of need to think twice before Assaulting Thousand Sons units.
However, units without Independent Characters (that you can't target), and other dedicated Assault units will have an easy time. As Thousand Sons are the worst Assault unit in the Codex. But, this isn't saying a whole lot, as they're still Space Marines.
Tzeentch Daemon Princes and Sorcerers are quite good, able to choose and use two powers in the same turn. As well as receiving a better Invulnerable save. Tzeentch Lords are 'okay'. The Tzeentch special character - Ahriman - is pretty good. But, far too overpoints'd.
*** Thousand Sons boxes are expensive. But, you get plenty in a box.
Emperor's Children/Slaanesh-based/Noise Marines:
Marks of Slaanesh add to Initiative. This means pretty much everything in the CSM army will be functioning at Initiative 5. If you're unit holds Power Weapons, you can do a lot of damage before your opponent even gets to attack.
Noise Marines. Are. Amazing. Sonic Blasters are essentially Storm Bolters that get an extra shot if you're standing still. A Blastmaster, is a S8, AP3 Blast weapon that causes Pinning. Do you want yet? Just before Assaulting, the Noise Marine Champion has access to a S5, AP3 Flamer. This will kill things dead. Then Assault, at Initiative 5 (if you're opponent didn't fail their Morale check from you shooting the crap out of them, that is) and you can do some serious damage.
Daemon Princes and Sorcerers gain Lash of Submission. Usually considered one of the more unfair psychic powers as it allows you to move your opponent's models. Where? Into Dangerous Terrain, out of their precious cover, towards your own models into Assault range, or even just moving their Heavy Weapon team out of LoS.
Chaos Lords with Blissgiver are perfect Character killers as with 3+D6 attacks and Initiative 6, they only need to cause one wound (with a 'Power Weapon') to kill pretty much anything they want.
Lucius the Eternal is just as good as - if not better than - Kharn. And doesn't even cost that many points.
**** The Noise Marine box doesn't come with with many Sonic Blasters. They are, however, available in bulk from Mail Order. But, they're not that important. You're really only getting Noise Marines for Blastmasters and Doom Sirens.
Death Guard/Nurgle-based/Plague Marines:
Extra Toughness. Might not seem like much. But, it's (usually) the most expensive Mark for units that can take it for a reason. Works best on models in Terminator Armour or models on Bikes.
Plauge Marines are pretty much exactly the same as regular Chaos Marines, except with Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain. They're extremely hard to kill. On top of which, they have Defensive Grenades. And that's pretty good. Aaand...That's about it actually. Not much can be said about Plague Marines except exactly that.
The Mark of Nurgle is mostly wasted on Daemon Princes as they don't really need the extra Toughness compared to what else they could take and Sorcerers on gain access to Nurgle's Rot, which, again, compared to other powers, isn't that great. As Nurgle's Rot works best in close combat. But, Nurgle Sorcerers only get one psychic power per turn. So, it's Nova, or use the Force Weapon.
On Chaos Lords (especially in Terminator Armour), the Mark of Nurgle is alright. Giving access to a reasonably good Daemon Weapon.
The special character for Death Guard is Typhus. He's pretty damn good. Opinion appears to be divided on whether or not he's worth the points. He has Wind of Chaos, and Nurgle's Rot (otherwise known as Nurgle's Nova). And he auto-passes all psychic tests when using those powers. As well as having the Nurgle-based Daemon Weapon, that also counts as a Force Weapon. As well as Terminator Armour and Defensive Grenades. Whether you like him or not is your choice.
**** Plague Marines are pretty boring for options. But, Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain are really, really good. And the Mark of Nurgle is usually the most expensive Mark for those who would get any real use out of it.
Tyranids ('Nids):
Spoiler
If you think of the movie Alien, or Starship Troopers, Tyranids aren't far off the mark. Pros: Tyranids are primarily seen as a close combat swarm army. The big Tyranids are extremely customisable and immensely powerful in whatever role you want to give them (but you should only choose one role at a time, remember), and, the smaller Tyranids come in massive numbers designed to make your opponent crap themselves on just how many bodies you can put on the table. The Tyranids also possess one of the most deadly close combat units in the entire game.
A Troops choice that can Infiltrate.
Most of the army is plastic. And, many of the metal models you only need a few of. So, per box, Tyranids are pretty cheap. Also, the Tyranid Battleforce is generally considered the 'best' one. Although, it's definitely recommended by most of the internet that you get two.
Cons: Like CSMs, it's often possible to overload your Monstrous Creatures with too many biomorphs (wargear), which gets expensive. Fast. And, many of the smaller Tyranids are designed for one unchangeable role. The smaller Tyranids can't adapt their units for what they want to do. A Tyranid army is usually seen as very shooty-heavy, or very assault-heavy. It very - extremely rarely - can be both. Often, trying to be both is actually a detriment to the Tyranid army.
Without the bigger Tyranids to back them up, the smaller Tyranids suddenly become a lot more vulnerable, partly because they already have low toughness and high armour saves to begin with. Therefore, you may need to spend a bit of money on the larger, more expensive models.
As a swarm army, box-per-box, you also don't get very many points in each box. This means you'll probably have to end up spending a lot of money to get a decent amount of points onto the table.
Also, like SMs and CSMs, if a 14 year old kid isn't playing SMs or CSMs, then they're playing Tyranids.
Reccomendation for Newbies: ** to ****. Depending on how much real-world currency you have to spend. If you don't have a lot of money, you wont be able to field a lot of bodies or acquire the larger Monstrous Creatures. If you can field ~50 Termagants and 50 Hormagaunts per battle and have Monstrous Creatures to back them up...Good.
Eldar:
Spoiler
Elves. In SPAAACE! Pros: The Eldar boast a 'swiss army knife' army. They have a unit for everything and every unit can do their job well. Each and every unit looks vastly different to every other unit, and are actually supposed to be painted in different colours to each other. So, you have a huge variety of models and colours. If variety is important to you.
Most of the army can Fleet. All Eldar tanks are Fast, Skimmers, and the army contains Eldar Jetbikes (which have different rules to 'normal' Jetbikes). In short, the Eldar army boasts speed and maneuverability.
As with their Infantry, they also have HQ units to fit certain roles. An Autarch can be outfitted to suit almost any battlefield role. Eldar Farseers and Seer Councils are powerful psykers. And the Avatar is a close combat Monster (literally).
A lot of the metal models in the range come in reasonable sized boxes at a (fairly) reasonable price. The good news is, you usually don't need too many of the metal models.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
A Wraithlord is one of the scariest models in the game. An absurdly high Toughness and a reasonable armour save. And can kill troops and heavy armour with equal ease. Often at the same time. It's strength 10 and Monstrous Creature status also means it can rip apart tanks even when it's guns are suited to killing Infantry. It even causes Instant Death on most Infantry that attack it. Including a lot of HQ characters.
Wraithguard are like smaller Wraithlords high Strength and Toughness, with a good save and toting around deadly guns.
...It's possible to build an entire army out of Wraithguard and Wraithlords.
Cons: Low 'Elf' Toughness.
The sheer amount of variety can sometimes make it hard to decide which units to take. Especially since some of the units in the Eldar army overlap, but, achieve their role in slightly different ways. And it's these 'slightly different ways' that can make or break the unit depending on your opponent. Some particular units are even useless or near-useless depending on your opponent.
Every unit fills a role. And is unadaptive. You can't manipulate any squad to do anything other than what it was designed to do (except Dire Avengers). And, in smaller point games where you can't afford to take every unit you want, you'll know that you're missing that unit. Because nothing else you have will be able to perform as well as the missing unit.
It's these missing units that make of most of the metal models that will be in your army. You'll need the metal models.
Individual Wraithguard units can often be prohibitively expensive in currency.
Taking too many Wraithlords in your army will have people crying for curdled dairy products. That is; Cheese. In lower point games, just one Wraithlord is enough for "OMG! Cheese!" cries.
Recommendation for Newbies: *** or ****. The Eldar army is an army where it's hard - but not impossible - to go wrong. With such a huge mandatory variety in models, an 'I want every unit' mindset (common in newbies) is actually beneficial to the Eldar army setup.
Dark Eldar (DE):
Spoiler
Like Eldar, but evil (there's an argument that Dark Eldar are more evil than 'regular Chaos'). But vastly different. Pros: The Dark Eldar as just as fast and just as maneuverable - if not more - as their 'good' Eldar counterparts. Except pack a lot more firepower. Each and every unit is customisable (unlike Eldar) to attack different things. Splinter Cannons for killing Infantry and Dark Lances for popping tanks. And you can fit a lot of both in an army.
The Dark Eldar close combat portion of the army is nothing to be sneezed at either. The Dark Eldar Lord (home of the 2+ Invulnerable Save) and Incubi retinue is one of the single-deadliest close combat units in the game (the only one better this author can think of is Necron Pariahs). Wyches are also very good.
The Dark Eldar also posses Raiders. A Fast, Skimming, Open-Topped Transport vehicle. For some, this means putting a squad of Warriors in and flying them around the battlefield and shooting anything that moves thanks to being open-topped.
Because a Raider is also Fast, and Open-Topped, and some Dark Eldar Infantry are also Fleet, it means Dark Eldar are often capable of the 'First Turn Assault'. Given just how effective Dark Eldar assault units are, this can only end well.
Also being Open-Topped, it means that when (rarely if) the Raider is destroyed, it's occupants can bail out easier.
In the hands of someone who has played Dark Eldar a long time, the army is staggeringly effective.
Cons: Fragile. Fragile. Fragile. The Dark Eldar army is best described as 'shock and awe' (read the fluff ). The goal of the army is to butcher and hamstring the opponent as quickly and as brutally as possible. If it isn't blindingly obvious that the Dark Eldar are winning by Turn 3 or 4, then they probably wont win the battle at all. By turn 3 or 4, most of the Dark Eldar Raiders should be destroyed (if they're not, laugh), leaving the Dark Eldar to rely on their enormous Toughness of 3, or Jetbikes.
The Dark Eldar have huge reliance on their Raider transport vehicles. This will end up costing a fair bit of currency in the end as nearly every unit will need one for extra protection or speed.
A lot of (effective) Dark Eldar armies tend to look the same.
A lot of the models are old and/or 'not very pretty'. However, some people don't mind that they're 'not pretty', because they're Dark Eldar. They're not supposed to be attractive like 'good' Eldar.
Old Codex. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as the 3rd Ed. Dark Eldar Codex still stands up against recent 5th Ed. Codecies. It isn't bad...Just...Old. And it may or may not be missing out on some fun toys that the other races have been getting.
Recommendation for Newbies: ** or ***. The Dark Eldar are easy to learn, but hard to master. But, once mastered...The Dark Eldar tend to either win by a significant margin (often by Turn 3 or 4), or lose spectacularly (by Turn 5 or 6). If you don't like the models, you can always take regular Eldar, add spikes and make some really awesome conversions. But, doing this is hard.
Necrons:
Spoiler
Think The Terminator, or perhaps think of Undead metal skeletons. And you can think of the Necrons. Pros: Some of the toughest basic Troops in the entire game.
Power Armour and Bolters. Except 'Necron Bolters' have a special version of Rending-but-not-quite, allowing them to wound Toughness 8 or better models or cause Glancing Hits to any vehicle. Including Land Raiders. Yes. The basic Troop type, with no options, can cause Glancing Hits against Land Raiders.
As well as their reasonable Toughness and 'Power Armour', they come with the We'll Be Back rule. Essentially your models can stand back up, even after they've been 'killed'. Like Undead. Or T-800s. Essentially, the Necrons are hard to kill. And sometimes don't even stay dead.
Warscythes - available to Necron Lords and Pariahs - are the best weapon in the entire game. Ignoring all saves - including Invulnerable Saves - and rolling 2D6 for Armour Penetration. Given that both Lords and Pariahs have Strength and Toughness 5, they can and will carve through almost anything put in front of them. Not even 'hard' units, that rely on 2+ armour and Invulnerable saves (like Space Marine Terminators) need to think twice about assaulting Pariahs.
The Necron army list is straightforward. You don't have to worry about whether to take Flamers or Plasmaguns. The unit is the unit. No fiddling necessary.
Most of the (useful) Necron model range is plastic. And also come at a high in-game points cost. For this reason, the Necrons are probably the cheapest army to buy when it comes to currency.
Necrons are extremely easy to paint.
The C'Tan. The Necrons are able to field near-literal Gods on the battlefield.
The Monolith. There's a legend that if you crack it open, it's full of cheese! Disclaimer: Cheesegear does not endorse breaking your Necron Monolith to find out if cheese is inside it.
Cons: First and foremost, the Phase Out rule. When an arbitrary proportion of your army is destroyed, the Necron army automatically loses. Regardless of the mission being played, the opponent has the same objective; 'Kill them all'.
Certain units are able to mitigate Phase Out from happening. One of the best ways to do this is to take a lot of the cheaper - and less fun - units in the army. For this reason, a lot of (effective) Necron armies tend to look pretty boring and are always pretty similar.
The only real individuality to be found in the entire Necron army list is to be found on the Necron Lord. No other unit truly allows options except for whether to take grenades or not.
The Assault capabilities of the Necron army is pretty effective, but, minimal. Either being expensive in points (like the aforementioned awesome Pariahs) and/or are not Troops. The Necron list also has a profound lack of Power Weapons, which doesn't help. The only power weapons found in the Necron list are Warscythes, which are only found on the expensive units; Lords and Pariahs (please note that Warscythes are awesome, however).
Pariahs may be totally awesome, and perhaps the best unit in the game, but, they don't come with the Necron rule. Meaning, every Pariah you get for your army, means that you're one step closer to Phasing Out earlier.
The basic Necron Troop comes at a high points cost, for this reason, Necrons do not often do well in games that are less than 1000 points.
(Unless the opponent doesn't entirely know what they're doing, and doesn't know how to defeat We'll Be Back or force a Phase Out).
Recommendation for Newbies: The Necrons are a very straightforward list. Very few options to get confused about, and extremely easy to paint. Necrons are very much like the Dark Eldar. It's very easy to make a bad list. It's also very easy to make a completely devastating list if you know what you're doing.
* if you can't get your head around Phase Out or want a list that offers variety.
**** or even ***** if you're looking for an easy army to put together and paint. And you can get your head around Phase Out, and know how to make it less bad.
Tau:
Spoiler
With help provided by Nameless Ghost, Ricky S and Selrahc
Tau are the archetypal alien race. Very progressive technology and a near-utopic society. Also draws several parallels to Mechs and Exosuits - if you like that sort of thing. Pros: Firepower. You want a really 'Shooty' army? You pick Tau.
Like Necrons and Space Marines, you actually can't go very far wrong with the 'normal' Troop choice; Fire Warriors. They have a decent save of 4+, so they aren't dying en masse to Bolter fire. And they boast the best base-Troop weapon in the game. Yes. Better than Bolters. Easily. Their Transport (Devilfish), similarly, for it's points cost is one of the best in the game. Second only to the Eldar Wave Serpent. You can field a very respectable army fielding nothing but Fire Warriors and Devilfish - just bring some anti-armour weapons.
HQ and Elites choices field some very respectable units in the form of Crisis Suits and Stealth Teams. Effectively your Mechs/Exosuits/Gears. With their ability to take a wide array of guns, on top of their ability to fire at multiple units at the same time, it makes them a very nice support unit for your Fire Warriors. Or, even a front-line squadron if you're brave enough. Crisis Suits also possess Jet Packs, rather than Jump Packs. Which is a really cool bonus to have. As it allows you to move in the Assault phase for move-shoot-move combos like Eldar Jetbikes.
Tau Heavy Support though is what you're really looking at. Broadsides are exactly what their name suggests if you're into Naval Warfare. Broadsides carry Railguns; High-strength guns designed to annihilate whatever they're pointed at. And they do it well too.
This author would be remiss if he didn't also mention Hammerheads. One of the better tanks in the game.
Cons: Tau fold like paper in Assault. What they do in Shooting, they lose out in Assault. Even worse than Necrons. Low Weapon Skill, low Toughness, low Initiative, and no access to Power Weapons or weapons that don't allow saves in Assault. Their decent armour saves them somewhat, but not much.
The Tau also have more than their fair share of 'trap' units. Which, outside of Themed Lists, don't actually do very well.
Like taking Kroot. Kroot are better in Assault than pretty much anything else in the army, but, that's not really saying much. You're best off with more Fire Warriors.
Ethereals are extremely good. But, your opponent will pretty much always target him first. And then he becomes a massive liability for your army.
Like Tyranids and Chaos Marines, it's kind of hard not to go overboard on Wargear options on your Crisis Suits, because they're all just so good. Leaving you fewer points to spend on Fire Warriors. Not only that, Crisis Suits are not Terminators, and don't do real well under fire.
Heavy Support choices are expensive in points. Problem is, if you don't take them, you're seriously missing out on some really impressive firepower options.
Recommendation for Newbs; *** The Battleforce is one of the better ones around, so long as you remember that the Kroot are essentially 'free'; If you didn't pay currency for them, you're under no obligation to use them. Replace them with Fire Warriors as soon as you can. The Tau way of battle also requires a lot of tactics to use well (similar to Eldar), in that you need to prioritise fire and occasionally you have no choice but to sacrifice the odd unit here and there. Tau often play very static roles, unless you shell out extra currency for Devilfish. Which isn't always the best thing in the world. And no. There really isn't a way around being bad at Assault. The best thing you can hope for is that you've shot the crap out of your enemy before they get there.
Chaos Daemons (Daemons, CDs)
Spoiler
Daemons. They come out of the Warp to eat your face. That's about all you need to know. Pros: Chaos Daemons, as an army, possess some of the more powerful units in the game. Strong HQs, strong Elites, reasonably impressive Fast Attack, and some strong Heavy Support in the form of Soul Grinders and Daemon Princes.
The entire army is Invulnerable and sports Eternal Warrior and Fearless on every single unit except the Soul Grinder. But, as a Daemon, the Soul Grinder gets some pretty impressive things on its own. So, Power Weapons and other low AP ranged weapons don't really have any extra effect on Daemons. Your opponent is basically wasting points.
Very powerful Assault army if you can get it there. It only takes three or four models to wipe out an opposing unit of 10 even on a fairly average day.
Very fast army. A number of Beasts/Cavalry and Jump Infantry units, and the whole army Deep Strikes.
High diversity and distinctive imagery of all it's units.
Most of the army is plastic (or soon will be), which keeps currency costs low.
Cons: *Deep Breath* Well, deployment. Before any game even starts, you're at a disadvantage. You can't actually plan with Chaos Daemons. Before the game starts, divide your army in half. Half your army arrives on Turn 1 via Deep Strike, and the rest of the army trickles in over the rest of the game.
...The really annoying part, is that you don't actually get to pick which half you get on the first turn. The only way to make a 'plan' with Daemons, is to have symmetrical halves, so, no matter what comes down, you've got what you want. Which means, all that diversity in models goes out the window as you now need to duplicate every unit. Leading to 'cookie cutter' units. Which nobody really likes - unless you want that.
Yeah, the entire army arrives via Deep Strike and reserves. It's both good and bad, it's more often bad. Since Chaos Daemons have a real lack of shooting. The opposite of Tau, who have low Assault. But, due to Deep Striking, and the disallowance of Assault, your army will get shot at before you get to Assault with your units.
This is solved by 'aggressive Deep Striking', which is ignoring terrain difficulties, and deploying as close to your enemy as you possibly can so you can Assault next turn. This means that you could take casualties from Difficult Terrain, and following Shooting phase from your opponent. To do this, you need lots of models, which costs currency.
The Codex - like Eldar - has a higher-than-normal amount of unit redundancy. Some of those diverse units that you like, just wont be taken because there are other units that can do the same job, better. Like Necrons, Daemons' Elites and Fast Attack choices are mostly just more powerful versions of the Troops units. Because of this reason, Daemons' Troops are pretty lackluster in comparison to everything else. Except that you have to take Troops...well, because they're your Troops. Which is even worse because those Troops units aren't exactly cheap in points.
With such a low save, Fearless is quite often a hindrance. And, unlike Orks or Tyranids, Daemons don't usually have the numbers to keep up a sustained losing-assault. But, Daemons don't usually lose Assault (even with such small unit sizes). So, you've got that.
Recommendation for Newbies: * The deployment rules are like nothing a new player would be able to deal with. Not to mention the complexity and tactics that you need with a Chaos Daemons army in order to win.
** If you really like the imagery and painting/conversion opportunities that Chaos Daemons presents.
Sadly, Daemons are more Cons than Pros unless you build your list a specific way. Which you - a new player - probably wont do.
Daemonhunters and Grey Knights (DHs, GKs): **
Spoiler
Codex: Daemonhunters is unusual, in that it technically offers you two different armies to play with, as well as the option to blend them together to make a third. Essentially, you're given some of the best things available to Space Marines and Imperial Guard Armies, and have them led by a powerful psyker and his cadre of Imperial Operatives and minions in the name of the Emperor's finest hand-picked soldiers.
Pros: The first thing that should be said about a Daemonhunters Army is that the quality of the models available, while narrow, is some of the finest available on a 40k battlefield. Very few forces can offer the sort of attention to detail and thematic consistency as a full contingent of the Adeptus Malleus.
The fact that you are given instructions for at least 2 different armies to play is also a nice bonus. On the one hand, you have "Imperial Guard-lite"; Storm Troopers riding around in Chimera, holding the line while your Inquisitor Lord directs highly trained Assassins to neutralise specific important targets.
On the other hand, you get the Grey Knights which are all the best things about ordinary Space Marines - like Terminator Armour, Land Raiders and impressive statlines - turned up to 11 with special abilities and exquisite new equipment to make a terrifyingly powerful Close Combat-orientated (though certainly not exclusive) army. Mix and match the two for a more balanced approach, or take even more Allies from your ordinary Codex: Imperial Guard and Codex: Space Marines to create one of the few Tournament-legal allied forces.
Codex: Daemonhunters offers you a variety of themes and opportunities to use for free, that other Armies usually have to get by spending precious points on Special Characters.
And to top it all off, the Codex is absolutely free to own! Yes, legally! You can get a copy all for your very own from the GW website, and it won't cost you a penny.
Cons: See all that really good stuff I listed above? About elite equipment, powerful soldiers and copious special abilities? Well, you're going to pay through the nose for them in every sense of the phrase.
The gorgeous models are almost entirely a metal range, putting even a medium sized army out of reach of most hobbiests. It also doesn't help that the Codex itself has been discontinued by GW, so chances are you'll be spending a lot of time awaiting your troops to arrive by Mail Order, which is yet another expense to bare in mind.
Assuming that you actually have the models you need to play with, you might find yourself shocked by how few of them there are compared to other armies. Though Grey Knights are the worst offenders, virtually all units in the Codex are more expensive than their C:IG and C:SM counterparts, and it's entirely possible to play a legal, competitive 1500 point army with around 20 models in it.
Thirdly, Codex: Daemonhunters was first published in 2002, and a lot has happened in the last 8 years. A number of the special rules and wargear options that you're choosing from have become incredibly weak due to changes to the Main Rules and other Codices, and those which aren't weakened are often made completely obsolete. For example, any Psychic Power referring to a Daemonic Instability Test? Yeah, you won't be needing that - those tests don't even exist any more, and it was very much a one-trick pony at the best of times.
More specifically, the Daemonhunters Special Characters suck.
Seriously - there's only two of them, and even comparing them to units available in the own Codex, let alone the SC's belonging to other armies, make you wonder why you would bother.
The Daemonhunter special character has an embarrassing statline and only 1 of his 2 psychic powers actually does anything, whereas the Grey Knight special character lacks all of the rules that actually makes him a 'proper' Grey Knight, and his only other special ability benefits your opponent as much as it does you in a very literal sense.
While special characters should be an interesting and characterful addition to an army, Codex: Daemonhunters tosses them in like an afterthought, robbing the player of the sort of storytelling grandeur that other armies take for granted.
Recommendation for Newbies: * or **
A pure Grey Knight Army is arguably one of the trickiest and most difficult army to use in Warhammer 40,000 - every casualty is a massive set back and your plans have to go off perfectly, for even the slightest mistake will leave you crippled in an instant. A pure Daemonhunter army will fare slightly better (hence the optional ** rating) but both armies can be done much better, more cheaply, by an ordinary Imperial Guard or Space Marine Army with an appropriate paint job. Heck, at least their Codices actually work properly!
If that doesn't deter you, however, a Codex: Daemonhunters army will undoubtedly be the crowning jewel in your wargaming collection. It will look fantastic, it will make a satisfyingly loud *THUNK* when you put it on the table, and the bragging rights available for actually winning a game with such a beast will be unrivaled by any other army choice.
Witch Hunters and Sisters of Battle (WHs, SoBs): ***
Orks: *** to ***** depending on how much currency you have (horde army). Extra points because it's the more useful of the AoBR Starter Armies. So, a decent Ork army actually comes stock in the 'newbie box'.
Imperial Guard (IG): * to ***** depending on how much currency you have. A ***** IG army is the single-most expensive army in the entire game. Even more than Daemonhunters. Imperial Guard Tanks.
Still to come;
Imperial Guard, Witch Hunters and Orks.
These armies I have lot of experience with. Send PMs if you believe you have advice that I might leave out.
Actually looking for, or things I can't write myself;
More General Advice (I think I've covered most of it).
SEND PMs. Don't Derail Thread.
Please submit suggestions for additions to the guide to my PM box as to keep from derailing the thread. Also, try and keep it general. Specifics can be delved into after the aspiring player has picked an army.
15.2.11 Linked to the general consensus on Tailoring.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Looks like I'm readjusting my army slightly. In is an Ironclad with Heavy Flamers, filling out my squad of Scout Bikes and more Hammernators.
I haven't written up a list exactly yet but I'm thinking Terminator Librarian + 7 Hammernators Deep Striking (three storm shields have been re-assigned), Scout Bikes, PodFlamerClad and from there I'm not sure how to kit the Tacticals.
I was thinking 2 Rhino squads and 2 Razorback squads (possibly filled out to create poor-mans Dev squads / objective sitters) but I'm not entirely sure how best to complement the other units I've taken. It seems that I'll probably have a fair bit of high strength weaponry, especially if I pack my ACLC Pred, so I was considering Flamer/Heavy Bolter or Flamer/Plasma Cannon for the Rhino squads, depending on points and other factors.
At this point I'm not even 100% sure on a point size, though probably 1500-1750ish as that's roughly standard round here. I can also do smaller though - and will need to for my friends, but I'm thinking more from a gaming-club perspective.
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterwind
I don't see how the Dire Sword could be useful, considering nothing is ever going to fail that Ld-test - I'd think the Invulnerable save from the Shimmerfield for the entire unit would be more useful most of the time. Though overall, I think you're right, and the dual Catapult variant would be the most sensible, considering their role.
Fortune, Doom, and Shimmershield means that the humble Dire Avenger unit can out-fight a lot of units people think it shouldn't be able to. It's very effective.
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterwind
Who said anything about shooting them at hordes? I wouldn't ever think about doing any such thing.
Actually that was meant for someone else, whomever was saying it wasn't worth while to upgrade them to pathfinders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterwind
Really? I figured between Doom, the Fire Prisms and the jetbikes themselves I had enough to deal with less-than-elite units sitting on objectives (with the Pathfinders and Fire Dragons taking care of the elite stuff)...
Well, as I've said, its more work to wipe out a unit in shooting then close combat. Just one guy living and passing a simple LD test is all it takes. While the Fire Prisms can kill a lot, given that most objectives (at least around here) are in cover it makes the prisms less effective, and again, your melee units aren't hampered by cover.
Larger areas of terrain, buildings/ruins especially, are a problem for jetbikes too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterwind
Hmmm... they are a bit expensive, that's true. Perhaps I should indeed just go with more Jetbikes instead, though having an S9 shot against vehicles (in addition to the S6 shots from the Shuriken Cannons) would greatly extend the versatility of the unit...
While the str9 is good, if you are using your jetbikes as primarily anti-infantry, which seems to be your plan, then the spear doesn't add a whole lot. The warlock is the cost of 2.5 jetbikes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterwind
...what's an ML? Were you thinking of the Scatter Laser and confused it with the Imperial Multilaser?
My reason for taking the EML was mainly that it can be fired as defensive weapon; ideally, if the points allow, I'd upgrade to a the Shuriken Catapults to a Cannon, and then have something to use against hordes, while also having the ability to try to shoot down a Land Speeder or something like that with a Krak round if necessary. Though I definitely see the wisdom in taking a Bright Lance - the only thing that disturbs me about it is the BS3, seems like a bit much of an investment for something that will miss so often... I'll think about that.
Yeah, I meant the SL, yesterday was a long day. The main reason why I like the BL on the WS is that it is the only way to get one at better then BS3 (being twin linked) other then a wraithlord. Which is why I don't like the BL on much of anything else. And the TL thing is much less useful on the EML compared to your other weapon choices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterwind
That makes quite a lot of votes for the Scorpions... I'm surprised noone favoured the Guardians in Serpent variants yet, or the Vyper/Hornet ones. I kinda expected those to be the most favoured ones, and if I had had to pick what I thought was probably the most effective, it would have been one of them.
As I've said before, I don't think guardians are powerful enough to justify them getting a transport that costs as much as WSs do. Absolutely if we had a 35pt rhino sort of option, but not on a 100+ transport.
The vypers... well I kind of like them, but they just seem to die too easily. Though that might not be a problem for you with the 3 prisms and WS to draw fire away. Generally I prefer the war walker over the vyper because they are both fire support vehicles and the walker is just better at it, but you don't have the slots for them. I don't remember the hornet rules. I would also say the dire avengers are a good choice, though I would still go for the scorpions.
I've began to like the warp spiders a lot more once I stopped trying to use the trap that is deep striking.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
So, I caved in and bought the regular Space Marine battleforce.
This roughly puts my "starter" army at 1040-1060 points before Wargear options (Depending if I'm playing them as Codex or Blood Angels, probably the latter).
I think once I get a few games in with my friends, I may start expanding. Probably get myself a Predator, or another Assault Squad. Maybe some Devastators to get some Heavy weapon options in there.
The armies I'd probably be facing most often would be Eldar, Chaos (Not sure if Daemons, or CSM), and once February comes around; I'll be getting some Dark Eldar for my girlfriend
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin
List.
Well, I took the list I posted to the tourney. Went 2-1-0 against Necrons, Space Marines, and Tyranids. Lost to the Necrons due to not at all knowing how their codex works (I have since been thoroughly educated), and handily defeated the Marines through clever use of reserves to evade his drop pod assault. The Tyranids... I actually feel bad about that. Because I stomped him into the sand (the table was desert terrain, you see) so hard that the next thing he did after we were done was sell his army off to someone else for $40 and walk out.
Details:
Spoiler
Necrons: This was a capture and control mission, pitched battle deployment. I won the roll-off to go first. He put his Monolith near his objective, but I don't know where he was going from there, because the opening shot of the game (a lascannon shot from my command squad) immobilized it. I then proceeded to dump heavy firepower into it for the rest of the game trying to clear the way for my infantry to move in and seize the objective without all dying horribly, but it would not die. No one told me about the phase out thing. It also didn't help that one of the local morons who didn't get into the tourney was hanging around our table making inane observations, including pointing out what my opponent should do when he hadn't noticed. He jumped his destroyers to my objective to contest the very minute the organizer called the last turn warning, and that was all she wrote.
Space Marines: This was a seize ground mission, spearhead deployment. The Marine player had three drop pods, so I held everything except my command squad in its Chimera and my two infantry squads on foot in reserve. The only thing he deployed was a Land Raider. He dropped a Dreadnought and a tactical squad into my deployment zone with drop pods and the Dreadnought killed the Chimera. The command squad bailed out and managed to immobilize the dread with its lascannon in my ensuing shooting phase. I got lucky on reserve rolls, and brought my Russes up on the tactical squad, wiping it out to a man via massed plasma fire. His third drop pod dropped another tactical squad in his own deployment zone, where he strung them out to hold two objectives at once. (The organizer had told us to keep the objectives a foot apart rather than two, so we did. Oops.) Getting lucky on reserves again, but unlucky on the outflank roll for the storm troopers (bringing them in on the wrong side), I sent four Chimeras rolling towards his deployment zone while my battle tank engaged the Land Raider in a long range shooting duel. It was at this point that I discovered why he'd dropped his drop pods in the pattern he did; they all had teleport homers and inside the Raider (which in the meantime had managed to destroy my Executioner) was a sternguard veteran squad, Pedro Kantor, and a Librarian with Gate of Infinity. They proceeded to teleport all over the place causing havoc, but not enough of it. He didn't manage to dislodge my troops from the objective they were holding, and my Chimeras rolled up to the squad in his backfield and opened up, with predictable results. The sole survivor failed his Morale check and fell back in turn six, leaving me with a clear victory.
The Tyranids... now that was just ugly. The scenario was something the organizer had come up with; it was scored on kill points, with three objectives spaced along the center of the table, each worth a bonus two points.
He had precisely two units capable of reliably destroying my tanks at the beginning of the game. By turn three he had none. It was over before my storm troopers in reserve even came in; after taking out his Hive Tyrant and Trygon, I just rolled Chimeras merrily around the field mowing down Termagaunts and warrior brood with absolute impunity. The only unit of mine he destroyed was the Executioner. (Everyone goes for that. Wonder why. ) As I said above, he packed up his army, sold it off for less than just one of his monstrous creatures is worth, and left before the results were announced after that. I feel really bad, though I'm told it was coming anyway and not really my fault.
Lessons learned: The Master of Ordnance cleaned up on massed Tyranid swarms. Not so much on Necrons and Marines, who aren't densely packed enough to be vulnerable to the scatter. I'm going to start fielding an astropath instead for all-comers lists. Also, Monoliths are a cast-iron bitch to kill, and I should just focus on wiping out everything else instead.
I didn't win the tournament, but I didn't expect to. It was fun anyway. After the store closed, the owner let me sit around and model while he played poker with his buddies, so I have another two squads of infantry done (and gave one of the sergeants a power shovel, because hey, why not?), so my options are rapidly expanding.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isak
This roughly puts my "starter" army at 1040-1060 points before Wargear options (Depending if I'm playing them as Codex or Blood Angels, probably the latter).
You wouldn't really be getting much out of using the blood angels rules with that army.
Blood Angels get
An extra scoring unit that's so small its going to die anyway.
A 1 in 6 chance of furious charge/fearless.
Codex Marines get
Combat Tactics
Decent options for the AoBR captain model, who can easily represent a guy with helfire round bolter and relic blade.
Once you get a librarian, more assault marines and apothecaries, then Blood Angels become better. Though regular space marine librarians have the better range of powers.
The devastator squad boxed set is probably the best option for you to buy next.
If you bought a rhino you might be able to convert your combat squad into foot assault marines and have a 10 man unit, depends how you build your tactical squad sergeants.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Just throwing out a notice that if people want to play on Vassal, I can be found on the chocolatehammer and giantitp irc channels. We should get some games going.
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
So, uh...My local GW is now selling Imperial Armour books. Rad. Now I can get them faster.
I picked up IA10 - Badab War 2: Electric Boogaloo, it's alright. I'm still uncertain as to whether or not I should pick up Tyberos, that model is pretty sucktastic. I'll probably still end up painting SPACE SHARKS!!! because they're grey, and because of that colour, people can't really stop me Codex-hopping.
__________________ Steam Name: Cheesegear
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TROOPS
Fire Warrior Team (x9) - 115 Points
Shas'Ui Team Leader, Markerlight, Bonding Knife
Fire Warrior Team (x6) - 85 Points
Shas'Ui Team Leader, Markerlight, Bonding Knife
Kroot Carnivore Squad (x10) - 70 Points
Kroot Carnivore Squad (x10) - 70 Points
FAST ATTACK
Pathfinder Team (x5) - 155
+Devilfish, Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker
Pathfinder Team (x5) - 155
+Devilfish, Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker
HEAVY SUPPORT
XV88 Broadside Team (x3) - 285 Points
Advanced Stabilisation System
Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Hard-Wired Drone Controller, Hard-Wired Target Lock
+Shield Drones (x2)
It's worked pretty well for me so far, though learning how to handle targeting priority was a bit tricky at first. The general order is usually something along the lines of Transports->Artillery->Independent Characters for my Railguns and Transports->Jump Infantry->Assault Troops for everything else. Shooting Rhinos and Trukks with just basic Pulse Rifles is also surprisingly effective.
I don't suppose you folks would be interested in me writing up my experiences with Tau tactics?
EDIT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogremindes
They look familiar... were they from the old Mordheim trial rules articles?
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorg
Wheee, it's been up for three days? Want more content, start giving feedback to a codex idea you like.
What codex ideas would those be? Almost every single page is merely some variation on "This page does not yet contain any content." I'm not trying to discourage anyone, but I've learned the hard way about putting up a shared-content site without some seed material to give it substance from day one; you waste the launch period as people find nothing to hold their interest and it's hard to get that back. If you're looking for original content, I have been working on Codex: Reasonable Marines just for giggles, but I'm not sure that sort of thing is what you're after.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguinizer
Just throwing out a notice that if people want to play on Vassal, I can be found on the chocolatehammer and giantitp irc channels. We should get some games going.
I'd like to try in a few days
So, I went to GW looking for paint-test Terminator IC character for my army. Sadly, the only one I like was that Chaplain, which would be difficult to use as anything else. When I was delibersating, some guy caught me and offered to sell SW bits he didn't need claiming I could make better character out of these. Sorry for picture quality, I know it sucks.
The whole thing looked good, until I got home... and noticed torso doesn't fit legs, sword and axe have no arms, and a few pieces had small scratches (I wonder if the paint will cover these)
So, I wonder now if that whole thing was worth it, and I'd like suggestions how to salvage this. I'll probably buy a few bits online to cover the lacks, but which ones? Suggestions? Do Chaos terminator parts fit loyalist parts? I was thinking about power maul and the torso with golden bands (without 'arrows').
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irbis
So, I went to GW looking for paint-test Terminator IC character for my army. Sadly, the only one I like was that Chaplain, which would be difficult to use as anything else. When I was delibersating, some guy caught me and offered to sell SW bits he didn't need claiming I could make better character out of these. Sorry for picture quality, I know it sucks.
The whole thing looked good, until I got home... and noticed torso doesn't fit legs, sword and axe have no arms, and a few pieces had small scratches (I wonder if the paint will cover these)
So, I wonder now if that whole thing was worth it, and I'd like suggestions how to salvage this. I'll probably buy a few bits online to cover the lacks, but which ones? Suggestions? Do Chaos terminator parts fit loyalist parts? I was thinking about power maul and the torso with golden bands (without 'arrows').
Or should I ask in different thread?
I recently picked up a Chaos Terminator Lord for a conversion project and those bitz look like they'd fit with all the stuff in that box. So yeah, the Chaos Terminator parts probably do fit loyalists.
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
I approve of this thread title. We seem to be introducing an ongoing Monty Python theme into our titles, huh?
And, these are awesome, Turcano.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erloas
Actually that was meant for someone else, whomever was saying it wasn't worth while to upgrade them to pathfinders.
Ohhh, I see. Nevermind, then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erloas
Well, as I've said, its more work to wipe out a unit in shooting then close combat. Just one guy living and passing a simple LD test is all it takes. While the Fire Prisms can kill a lot, given that most objectives (at least around here) are in cover it makes the prisms less effective, and again, your melee units aren't hampered by cover.
Larger areas of terrain, buildings/ruins especially, are a problem for jetbikes too.
Mmm, quite true. Okay, understood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erloas
While the str9 is good, if you are using your jetbikes as primarily anti-infantry, which seems to be your plan, then the spear doesn't add a whole lot. The warlock is the cost of 2.5 jetbikes.
Mmm, good point.
How about the Destructor power - couldn't that justify the inclusion of a warlock (one could drop the spear, then, can't use both at the same time anyway)? A Destructor Warlock costs 55 points - that's basically a 34 point upgrade for a single Jetbike to give it a heavy flamer (helping with anti-horde and anti-infantry a fair bit), wounding on 2+ in close combat (with two attacks), a 4+ Invulnerable and much better stats. It is expensive, true, but that's a pretty nifty upgrade, too...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erloas
Yeah, I meant the SL, yesterday was a long day. The main reason why I like the BL on the WS is that it is the only way to get one at better then BS3 (being twin linked) other then a wraithlord. Which is why I don't like the BL on much of anything else. And the TL thing is much less useful on the EML compared to your other weapon choices.
...I have to admit in shame, I totally missed that these weapons were twin-linked. Yeah, that makes the Bright Lance a much better option that I thought.
On the other hand, the EML also has S8, just like the BL, all it's missing is the Lance rule. Since the Serpent will spend most of its time racing forward to deliver the Dragons, who can deal with the stuff the Lance would help against much better anyway, it will get up close, thus being quite easily able to get into the Side-Armour-arc, where the BL will have an advantage against only a few tanks in the entire game - the EML is much cheaper and can help with shooting hordes, too, if necessary...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erloas
As I've said before, I don't think guardians are powerful enough to justify them getting a transport that costs as much as WSs do. Absolutely if we had a 35pt rhino sort of option, but not on a 100+ transport.
Alright.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erloas
The vypers... well I kind of like them, but they just seem to die too easily. Though that might not be a problem for you with the 3 prisms and WS to draw fire away. Generally I prefer the war walker over the vyper because they are both fire support vehicles and the walker is just better at it, but you don't have the slots for them.
Aye, pretty much exactly that.
The only problem of the Vyper is that it can be shot down by bolters, so even with the other vehicles drawing fire away this may still not be enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erloas
I don't remember the hornet rules.
+10 points in comparison to the Vyper, 11/11/10 armour, no longer open-topped, has in-built star engines, the Scout special rule, and rather than having one heavy weapon plus TL-Shuriken Catapults (upgradable to a Shuriken Cannon) it may (and has to) buy two heavy weapons, with the same cost and options as the Vyper (so the cheapest variant would have two Shuriken Cannon for 5 points each), plus it may also take Pulse Lances for 40 pts. - the most heavily armed Hornet could thus have two Pulse Lances, though it would be getting really expensive then.
Essentially, the Hornet is pretty much purely better than the Vyper - the cheapest Hornet with two Shuriken Cannons costs 65 points in comparison to the 60 points of a Vyper with two Shuriken Cannons, but gets star engines, 11/11/10 armour, not being open-topped and the Scout rule for these 5 points. And more expensive models have the advantage of carrying two heavy weapons, rather than just one.
The only bad thing about it is that it's a Forgeworld model with experimental rules only.
If I used it, I'd definitely build one army list that uses Forgeworld models and a second list that is legal without them. But I would do so only if the Forgeworld-model list was indeed more effective than the non-Forgeworld model one - in this case, I'd use the Hornets if they were more effective than the Scorpions, but just go with the Scorpions no matter what if you told me the Scorpion variant was superior to the Hornet one anyhow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erloas
I would also say the dire avengers are a good choice, though I would still go for the scorpions.
Alright, got it. Scorpions it shall be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erloas
I've began to like the warp spiders a lot more once I stopped trying to use the trap that is deep striking.
I'll have to be honest and admit that Warp Spiders confuse me. I just don't understand how they are supposed to be used and in what role when looking at their stats and equipment in the codex.
As always, thank you very much.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterwind
How about the Destructor power - couldn't that justify the inclusion of a warlock (one could drop the spear, then, can't use both at the same time anyway)? A Destructor Warlock costs 55 points - that's basically a 34 point upgrade for a single Jetbike to give it a heavy flamer (helping with anti-horde and anti-infantry a fair bit), wounding on 2+ in close combat (with two attacks), a 4+ Invulnerable and much better stats. It is expensive, true, but that's a pretty nifty upgrade, too...
The only thing I don't really like about destructor on a jetbike is that it forces them to get closer to be effective. Normally you can jump in at 10-12" range (at least with the catapult models, leaving the cannons farther back), unload, then use your free assault move to jump back so you are 16-18" away, potentially behind cover, and out of range of what most things can assault (and rapid fire range if they don't move). Having to get to 4-6" range to get good use out of the flame template means you can't jump as far away and you are much more likely to get them assaulted. I would say probably about 60-80% of the time I loose my jetbikes its because they get stuck in assault. Even against guard, which aren't likely to kill many, they simply don't have the number of attacks or str to get out of any fight in a reasonable number of turns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterwind
Since the Serpent will spend most of its time racing forward to deliver the Dragons, who can deal with the stuff the Lance would help against much better anyway, it will get up close, thus being quite easily able to get into the Side-Armour-arc, where the BL will have an advantage against only a few tanks in the entire game - the EML is much cheaper and can help with shooting hordes, too, if necessary...
True. I tend to use SL on my banshee WS, because its going to be moving a lot, the SL is cheap, and the unit as a whole is anti-infantry. I generally only take the BL when I give the WS to dire avengers, which don't require getting nearly as close and so move a lot less. Of course I also don't currently run fire dragons in my list, so I'm more limited in my ability to handle the high armor tanks (but my 40+ str6 shots makes short work out of everything else)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterwind
+10 points in comparison to the Vyper, 11/11/10 armour, no longer open-topped, has in-built star engines, the Scout special rule, and rather than having one heavy weapon plus TL-Shuriken Catapults (upgradable to a Shuriken Cannon) it may (and has to) buy two heavy weapons, with the same cost and options as the Vyper (so the cheapest variant would have two Shuriken Cannon for 5 points each), plus it may also take Pulse Lances for 40 pts. - the most heavily armed Hornet could thus have two Pulse Lances, though it would be getting really expensive then.
Ah yes, I remember that now. It seems like a good option, and if you can actually use it in most games then it seems like a very reasonable choice. I would probably go with dual SL on it, because its still too fragile to spend the points to get the pulse lasers (the falcon weapon, right? not a new weapon). Generally the SLs don't draw nearly as much attention and fire as BL (or what the Pulse laser would), they are cheaper, and they are still effective against a wide range of things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterwind
I'll have to be honest and admit that Warp Spiders confuse me. I just don't understand how they are supposed to be used and in what role when looking at their stats and equipment in the codex.
Well an assault 2 str6 weapon will force a lot of saves. In this case the AP- isn't really much of an issue to me because anything AS5/6 dies in droves anyway, and the str6 compared to str4 of catapults will cause a lot more wounds even with saves, and against 80% of what you face (SM and their variants) they will get a save from most of your weapons anyway.
They just won't be as good at taking out transports, though given a lack of better targets they wouldn't do too poorly in that role. Being that they are very fast and have the assault move you should be able to get them where they need to be quickly and should be able to out-shoot most units, and stay far enough away to not be assaulted, and terrain permitting might be able to not even be shot back. Mostly though I think they work well to shape the battlefield and force some of your opponents movements. They are too dangerous to be left alone, but they are too fast to be easily dealt with, so you use them to try and draw off enemy units so the rest of your army has less to deal with at any given time.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Well, since I finally managed to save enough cash to get my Daemons rolling, I made a list of potential units. Now, since I just started playing Warhammer half a year ago (and friends I play with are not much more experienced then me) I wanted to check pros and cons of my army, and ask for a fair bit of advice
List:
Spoiler
HQ
Herald of Khorne - 105 Points
Juggernaut
Herald of Tzeentch - 95 points
Bolt of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery, We Are Legion
HEAVY SUPPORT
Daemon Prince - 115 Points
Mark of Slaanesh, Aura of Acquiescence, Daemonic Gaze
Daemon Prince - 170 Points
Mark of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery, Bolt of Tzeentch, Daemonic Gaze
Total: 997 Points
Herald of Khorne is attached to the Bloodletters, and Herald of Tzeentch is attached to the Pink Horrors.
We are playing a 1000 points annihilation games almost all the time. Since it's casual play we don't go for the "stomp all, win all" but fun. But if we do start organizing tournaments I', still going with Daemons, so I could at least make them competitive.
Any help will be met with cookies and words of praise
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erloas
The only thing I don't really like about destructor on a jetbike is that it forces them to get closer to be effective. Normally you can jump in at 10-12" range (at least with the catapult models, leaving the cannons farther back), unload, then use your free assault move to jump back so you are 16-18" away, potentially behind cover, and out of range of what most things can assault (and rapid fire range if they don't move). Having to get to 4-6" range to get good use out of the flame template means you can't jump as far away and you are much more likely to get them assaulted. I would say probably about 60-80% of the time I loose my jetbikes its because they get stuck in assault. Even against guard, which aren't likely to kill many, they simply don't have the number of attacks or str to get out of any fight in a reasonable number of turns.
Mmm, makes sense. Okay, I think I'll probably drop the Warlocks in favour of more Jetbikes, then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erloas
True. I tend to use SL on my banshee WS, because its going to be moving a lot, the SL is cheap, and the unit as a whole is anti-infantry. I generally only take the BL when I give the WS to dire avengers, which don't require getting nearly as close and so move a lot less. Of course I also don't currently run fire dragons in my list, so I'm more limited in my ability to handle the high armor tanks (but my 40+ str6 shots makes short work out of everything else)
Ah, I see. Makes perfect sense to me, and I shall heed that advice if I ever expand that army further and add more Serpents to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erloas
Ah yes, I remember that now. It seems like a good option, and if you can actually use it in most games then it seems like a very reasonable choice. I would probably go with dual SL on it, because its still too fragile to spend the points to get the pulse lasers (the falcon weapon, right? not a new weapon). Generally the SLs don't draw nearly as much attention and fire as BL (or what the Pulse laser would), they are cheaper, and they are still effective against a wide range of things.
Yeah, it's the Falcon weapon, got confused with the names.
I think my personal choice would be one Eldar Missile Launcher and either a Scatter Laser or a Shuriken Cannon, on the grounds that if one moves more than 6" one no longer can fire two Scatter Lasers, but one can fire a Scatter Laser/Shuriken Cannon and a plasma round from the EML.
Or simply two EMLs...
Okay, I think I'll go with the Scorpions, then, but grab three Hornets over time as well and use them when allowed to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erloas
Well an assault 2 str6 weapon will force a lot of saves. In this case the AP- isn't really much of an issue to me because anything AS5/6 dies in droves anyway, and the str6 compared to str4 of catapults will cause a lot more wounds even with saves, and against 80% of what you face (SM and their variants) they will get a save from most of your weapons anyway.
They just won't be as good at taking out transports, though given a lack of better targets they wouldn't do too poorly in that role. Being that they are very fast and have the assault move you should be able to get them where they need to be quickly and should be able to out-shoot most units, and stay far enough away to not be assaulted, and terrain permitting might be able to not even be shot back. Mostly though I think they work well to shape the battlefield and force some of your opponents movements. They are too dangerous to be left alone, but they are too fast to be easily dealt with, so you use them to try and draw off enemy units so the rest of your army has less to deal with at any given time.
Mmm, I see...
But, since they have only 12" range, doesn't it happen rather often to them that they get assaulted by whatever it is they end up shooting at? Granted, they have basically power armour, and they can get out of the combat after that round, but I'd still imagine it would get rather costly very fast...
EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodez
Well, since I finally managed to save enough cash to get my Daemons rolling, I made a list of potential units. Now, since I just started playing Warhammer half a year ago (and friends I play with are not much more experienced then me) I wanted to check pros and cons of my army, and ask for a fair bit of advice
Okay, let's see...
I think wings make Daemon Princes a fair bit more scary - a monstrous creature is nasty, a monstrous creature that is that fast is a lot more so.
So does Iron Skin, especially on non-Tzeentch Princes - without it, it's too easy to kill the Prince with small arms fire.
I'm not sure the Mark of Slaanesh will help that Daemon Prince all that much - your initiative is pretty good already, I'd think Nurgle or Tzeentch would probably benefit it more by making it more resilient.
If Special Characters are allowed in your group, I'd really suggest you try to grab Kairos Fateweaver as soon as possible. That thing makes any Daemon army that much more powerful...
When distributing your units into the first and the second wave, I'd suggest you always make sure your Tzeentch-Prince and your Pink Horrors are in separate waves, so no matter what, you end up having something ranged that can shoot down vehicles quickly.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterwind
Okay, let's see...
I think wings make Daemon Princes a fair bit more scary - a monstrous creature is nasty, a monstrous creature that is that fast is a lot more so.
So does Iron Skin, especially on non-Tzeentch Princes - without it, it's too easy to kill the Prince with small arms fire.
I'm not sure the Mark of Slaanesh will help that Daemon Prince all that much - your initiative is pretty good already, I'd think Nurgle or Tzeentch would probably benefit it more by making it more resilient.
If Special Characters are allowed in your group, I'd really suggest you try to grab Kairos Fateweaver as soon as possible. That thing makes any Daemon army that much more powerful...
When distributing your units into the first and the second wave, I'd suggest you always make sure your Tzeentch-Prince and your Pink Horrors are in separate waves, so no matter what, you end up having something ranged that can shoot down vehicles quickly.
Since we play at 1000 points we agreed on not taking anything worth more then ~200 points, because it tends to rip most things apart (Fateweaver was actually responsible for that decision ). As for Princes, I can swap all upgrades on Slaanesh Daemon Price for both of these Marks, but since I am already fishing for points I can't really cram anything else there. I could cut back on Pink Horrors a little, take one or two out, but that just makes them easier targets.
But still, I think that should work.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterwind
Mmm, I see...
But, since they have only 12" range, doesn't it happen rather often to them that they get assaulted by whatever it is they end up shooting at? Granted, they have basically power armour, and they can get out of the combat after that round, but I'd still imagine it would get rather costly very fast...
Well yes, if you leave them in their shooting range, thats what the 2d6" assault move is for.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
None of the daemon players round here take that many princes. Mainly because they're taking things like greater daemons, objective squating plague bearers and big units of bloodcrushers.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erloas
Well yes, if you leave them in their shooting range, thats what the 2d6" assault move is for.
...I have no idea how I missed that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton
None of the daemon players round here take that many princes. Mainly because they're taking things like greater daemons, objective squating plague bearers and big units of bloodcrushers.
Same here. Especially the Bloodcrushers.
Personally, I think they are a bit overrated - they are good, don't get me wrong, but not the ultimate answer to all problems the Daemons players around here seem to consider them - but yeah, definitely recommendable.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Personally, I prefer Fiends of Slaanesh over Bloodcrushers, because of the hit and run, which gets me to cover, or out of range most of the times.
And only reason I go with two Princes is that we don't play anything over 200 points.
But, can you please point me to the Daemon players around here? It would be really helpfull to read about some battle reports, or general tips, and my google-fu isn't strong enough to find that.
Thanks in advance
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Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
). The goal of the army is to butcher and hamstring the opponent as quickly and as brutally as possible. If it isn't blindingly obvious that the Dark Eldar are winning by Turn 3 or 4, then they probably wont win the battle at all. By turn 3 or 4, most of the Dark Eldar Raiders should be destroyed (if they're not, laugh), leaving the Dark Eldar to rely on their enormous Toughness of 3, or Jetbikes.
He jumped his destroyers to my objective to contest the very minute the organizer called the last turn warning, and that was all she wrote. 
His third drop pod dropped another tactical squad in his own deployment zone, where he strung them out to hold two objectives at once. (The organizer had told us to keep the objectives a foot apart rather than two, so we did. Oops.) Getting lucky on reserves again, but unlucky on the outflank roll for the storm troopers (bringing them in on the wrong side), I sent four Chimeras rolling towards his deployment zone while my battle tank engaged the Land Raider in a long range shooting duel. It was at this point that I discovered why he'd dropped his drop pods in the pattern he did; they all had teleport homers and inside the Raider (which in the meantime had managed to destroy my Executioner) was a sternguard veteran squad, Pedro Kantor, and a Librarian with Gate of Infinity. They proceeded to teleport all over the place causing havoc, but not enough of it. He didn't manage to dislodge my troops from the objective they were holding, and my Chimeras rolled up to the squad in his backfield and opened up, with predictable results. The sole survivor failed his Morale check and fell back in turn six, leaving me with a clear victory.
) As I said above, he packed up his army, sold it off for less than just one of his monstrous creatures is worth, and left before the results were announced after that. I feel really bad, though I'm told it was coming anyway and not really my fault.
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