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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by DThomassen
The "Killer Centaur"'s numbers are not quite right. The Bite Claws will be secondary attacks, not primary, so -5 to hit and half strength damage.
Yup, that's already factored in. Damage is dice +10 (for a Strength of 30) divided by 2 (for secondary attack) then +1 for magic, for a total damage bonus of +6 for each claw and bite. Multiattack brings the attack penalty down to only -2, for a total attack bonus of +16 each.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Wow, how did I miss that Feat. The problem I now have is that I can make Eidolons that outclass the fighter for most opponents without damage reduction. Yes the fighter can do fancy stuff like disarm and sunder, but for straight damage per round the Eidolon wins. (Yes it has less hit points, but that only counts if the summoner doesn't give up his to keep the eidolon in the fight. At the end of the fight the damage will still need healing no matter who took it).
Great Handbook, thanks for all your hard work.
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by DThomassen
Wow, how did I miss that Feat. The problem I now have is that I can make Eidolons that outclass the fighter for most opponents without damage reduction. Yes the fighter can do fancy stuff like disarm and sunder, but for straight damage per round the Eidolon wins. (Yes it has less hit points, but that only counts if the summoner doesn't give up his to keep the eidolon in the fight. At the end of the fight the damage will still need healing no matter who took it).
Great Handbook, thanks for all your hard work.
I don't really see that as a problem, really, as the eidolon has enough restrictions on it to balance it out, I think. I mean, playing a summoner kinda makes it so you have to equip 2 characters, which is a headache in and of itself, what with having to share item slots and all. Also, if you're having trouble seeing your fighter keep up damagewise, it probably means you haven't optimized enough.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
The Eidolon has a +8 strength bonus from size long before the fighter can even afford one of those 1/day polymorph armours (and because the spells were nerfed to self only the wizard can't even help him out any more with that). The Eidolon can also get +16, giving him more strength than the fighter can ever get.
The Eidolon can get pounce at level 1 while the fighter has to wait till level 10 before he can move and full attack.
The Eidolon can get extra arms to use a shield without penalty.
Also the Summoner's spell list has lots of good spells, he is simply not a bad caster.
The Summoner simply is not balanced with the fighter in the remotest, he gets a fighter as a pet.
Here are a list of problems and solutions I put together for the Eidolon :
- pounce, too powerful.
Solution : change so you can attack with 2 natural weapon attacks at the end of a charge.
- claws, they are the only weapons which can trigger rend and by getting as many as possible you can concentrate feats and other weapons specific boosts in one place.
Solution : can only be put on arms, together with the next one.
- limbs, having more than 2 arms is incredibly powerful, there is multiweapon fighting abuse, you can wield a two handed weapon and a shield, etc etc.
Solution : can only get arms 1 time (also makes the claws+rend combo a little less of a no brainer).
- pincers, underpowered with above changes.
Solution : become primary attacks
- slam, underpowered period.
Solution : you get two slam attacks, not one.
- tail slap, underpowered period.
Solution : roll tail and tail slap into one 1 point evolution.
- too bloody many primary natural attacks.
Solution : Only bite, claws, pincers, slams and rake remain primary.
- too much strength.
Solution : +4 and +8 bonuses from size increases.
Last edited by PinkysBrain : 04-05-2011 at 02:59 PM.
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
So as the spell enlarge person reads
"This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the creature's size category to the next larger one."
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quick question on Rend - it's written as "Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round, its claws latch onto the flesh and deal extra damage." This follows the creatures in the Bestiary with Rend, no problem. However, if an eidolon has, say... six claw attacks? The evolution isn't written as "whenever the eidolon makes two or more successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round" and there's no notation that it's only once a round, or once per target per round, any which would be clear and unambiguous.
So, say you make your six claw attacks. First hits, second hits, Rend triggers, third misses, fourth and fifth hit... well that's another instance of two successful claw attacks... But getting several rends per turn, potentially, just feels a little wrong.
Also, combat reflexes and a target doing multiple things in a round on its turn which would provoke AoOs - you could potentially have two claws hit in that one round, even though it isn't on the eidolon's action... would that count for Rend, also?
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTrees
Quick question on Rend - it's written as "Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round, its claws latch onto the flesh and deal extra damage." This follows the creatures in the Bestiary with Rend, no problem. However, if an eidolon has, say... six claw attacks? The evolution isn't written as "whenever the eidolon makes two or more successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round" and there's no notation that it's only once a round, or once per target per round, any which would be clear and unambiguous.
So, say you make your six claw attacks. First hits, second hits, Rend triggers, third misses, fourth and fifth hit... well that's another instance of two successful claw attacks... But getting several rends per turn, potentially, just feels a little wrong.
Also, combat reflexes and a target doing multiple things in a round on its turn which would provoke AoOs - you could potentially have two claws hit in that one round, even though it isn't on the eidolon's action... would that count for Rend, also?
I suspect not. Rend just says that it triggers when you make two successful claw attacks against the same target in one round. So if you hit twice with claws, you've made two successful claw attacks, so this triggers rend. If you score a third hit, you've made three successful claw attacks - this doesn't trigger anything special, so no rend.
You could probably interpret it differently, but this seems the most sensible way. Note, though, that as long as you've got enough claws, you can do Rend damage to more than one target, as long as you hit each target at least two times each.
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I'm the author of the Alex Verus urban fantasy novels. Book #3 in the series, Taken, is now out in the US and UK! For updates, check my blog or the forum thread.
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
I have a question about the 4th level spell Purified Calling:
"Your eidolon is restored to full health when you summon it. Upon casting this spell, you must immediately begin the ritual to summon your eidolon. Upon completion of the ritual, your eidolon appears at full hit points and without any damage or penalties to its ability scores, regardless of its previous condition. In addition, any temporary negative conditions affecting your eidolon are immediately removed. Permanent conditions and ability drain are not affected by this spell."
When I first read this, it seemed to me that "dead" should be one of the conditions removed - Which would make Purified Calling a pretty good spell. However, the section on summoning says that:
"If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day"
So, should Purified Calling be able to revive a dead eidolon on the same day it died?
On a related note, when summoning an eidolon using the 3rd level "Summon Eidolon" spell, should the eidolon appear at full HP or the HP it had when it was last dismissed?
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Note: I'm mostly guessing, haven't seen anything official.
Quote:
Originally Posted by garydoho
Purified Calling:
"....regardless of its previous condition. In addition, any temporary negative conditions affecting your eidolon are immediately removed. Permanent conditions and ability drain are not affected by this spell."
...
"If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day"
I'd rule that dead counts as "Permanent conditions and ability drain are not affected by this spell.", and you're out of luck for the rest of the day. Granted, your Eidolon is only 'temporarily' dead.
On the other hand, in order for the spell to work you still have to preform the 1-minute Eidolon Summoning Ritual, so it's not like you can have it pop back in the middle of combat.
I'd still rule dead=gone though
Quote:
Originally Posted by garydoho
On a related note, when summoning an eidolon using the 3rd level "Summon Eidolon" spell, should the eidolon appear at full HP or the HP it had when it was last dismissed?
Summon Eidolon says at the end "This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due to damage." Eidolons are only returned by damage if they 'died' with a negative HP score. And being able to summon a Dead Eidolon would be pretty worthless.
The intent of the spell seems to be "pretend your Eidolon was a normal, summonable creature". So I'd say it's "not really your Eidolon", just a thing that looks like it, and at the end of the spells duration it goes "poof".
Purified calling is (currently) a judgement call. I'd say Summon Eidolon gives it full hp because it's "no really your Eidolon".
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
First I would like to thank you for this wonderful guide and it has really inspired me to play a summoner as soon as i get the chance :)
Secondly, I stumbled upon Advanced Feats: Summoner's Circle and i was wondering if you (or anyone else for that matter) has had a chance to read it yet? I personally havent, but seeing how it's dedicated to this class there's bound to be some good stuff in there I'd assume.
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
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Originally Posted by Conkea
First I would like to thank you for this wonderful guide and it has really inspired me to play a summoner as soon as i get the chance :)
Secondly, I stumbled upon Advanced Feats: Summoner's Circle and i was wondering if you (or anyone else for that matter) has had a chance to read it yet? I personally havent, but seeing how it's dedicated to this class there's bound to be some good stuff in there I'd assume.
I have read it. My DM has it. Its not for the Summoner class per se. Its a summoning guide. All the critters and new feats for those classes that can specialize in summoning. Summon Monster, summon Natures ally....etc.
Very good resource I would say. It gives you some new directions to walk a summoning class down. It has new feats that build off PF feats.
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Has anyone considered making a skill monkey eidolon, and using summon monster for combat?
Here's my concept:
Give the Eidolon Use Magic Device, Spellcraft, Sleight of Hand, and Disable Device as it's 4 bonus class skills. With +1 skill rank per level from the human or halfling alternate favorite class bonuses, adding the +1 at 4HD to Int, and giving it +2 Int as an ability boost, You can max 7 skills: the four above, Perception, Stealth, and Sense Motive. Make sure to grab Linguistics, Spellcraft, and UMD for yourself.
You can get +8 to any of these, including your own skills once you get Aspect.
Further, if you're using 3.5 material, have the eidolon grab Shape Soulmeld twice, for Mage's Spectacles (+4 Decipher Script [so Linguistics], Spellcraft, and UMD, +2 per essentia) and Theft Gloves (+2 to Disable Device and Sleight of Hand, +2 per essentia), Open Least Chakra for Hands (Theft Gloves grant Trapfinding), and Bonus Essentia for 2 essentia to play with.
At 10th level, the eidolon could easily have +27 to UMD (8 ranks, +3 class skill, +8 racial, +8 insight), more with a few more tricks (boost Cha, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, Skill Focus), and similarly absurd bonuses to the standard skill monkey array. Plus you can have +8 to Spellcraft and UMD yourself (leaving you with +26 UMD as well with no feat investment, assuming +5 from Cha).
Even without Incarnum, skills in the 20s are easy.
Probably not the best build, but I think it's pretty neat.
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goober4473
Has anyone considered making a skill monkey eidolon, and using summon monster for combat?
If by "Using summon monster for combat" you mean the spell, then you would be better off with a Conjurer Wizard with Leadership. You can't use the Eidolon and the class ability summon monster at the same time (One of Paizo's half-assed balancing fixes when they couldn't figure out how to hell to balance the Eidolon [and they still never realized the real problem before going to print])
And assuming Incarnum in the original analysis is a bad idea. Incarnum is not in Pathfinder if I recall correctly so at best it's a secondary bonus if you are mixing 3.5 and Pathfinder AND including Incarnum.
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartigan
If by "Using summon monster for combat" you mean the spell, then you would be better off with a Conjurer Wizard with Leadership. You can't use the Eidolon and the class ability summon monster at the same time (One of Paizo's half-assed balancing fixes when they couldn't figure out how to hell to balance the Eidolon [and they still never realized the real problem before going to print])
And assuming Incarnum in the original analysis is a bad idea. Incarnum is not in Pathfinder if I recall correctly so at best it's a secondary bonus if you are mixing 3.5 and Pathfinder AND including Incarnum.
Valid points. Just a thought.
I'm pretty sure a Wizard is just better than a Summoner though. There's also a good chance of DMs not allowing Leadership. What if we're assuming around tier 3, no Leadership? Is it workable with just Pathfinder? How about with 3.P?
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goober4473
Valid points. Just a thought.
I'm pretty sure a Wizard is just better than a Summoner though. There's also a good chance of DMs not allowing Leadership. What if we're assuming around tier 3, no Leadership? Is it workable with just Pathfinder? How about with 3.P?
Well you still can't run your Eidolon as skill monkey and use your class summoning abilities.
Though you still could run your spells and an Eidolon skill monkey, that's plausible if not hilarious - "How does a snake pick locks? "
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartigan
Well you still can't run your Eidolon as skill monkey and use your class summoning abilities.
Though you still could run your spells and an Eidolon skill monkey, that's plausible if not hilarious - "How does a snake pick locks? "
Haha, I was thinking serpent.
My idea was to keep the eidolon around for non-combat, then dismiss it pre-combat, or once combat breaks out. Maybe find something useful for it to do if I can't spare the Standard action, like flank buddying, tanking, stealing stuff from enemies with an absurdly high Sleight of Hand, or of course using wands/scrolls with it's massive UMD.
My other idea for the character was to make the summoner itself a buffer and item crafterv (+8 to Spellcraft? Yes please), so handing the eidolon wands of buff spells could possibly work for combat.
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goober4473
Haha, I was thinking serpent.
My idea was to keep the eidolon around for non-combat, then dismiss it pre-combat, or once combat breaks out. Maybe find something useful for it to do if I can't spare the Standard action, like flank buddying, tanking, stealing stuff from enemies with an absurdly high Sleight of Hand, or of course using wands/scrolls with it's massive UMD.
My other idea for the character was to make the summoner itself a buffer and item crafterv (+8 to Spellcraft? Yes please), so handing the eidolon wands of buff spells could possibly work for combat.
I didn't realize you could dismiss and resummon the Eidolon the same day. I guess that would work then.
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartigan
I didn't realize you could dismiss and resummon the Eidolon the same day. I guess that would work then.
you can't. If you summon an Eidolon that day then dismiss it, you can't bring it back without using the Summon Eidolon spell. Now, if your like me, then your Eidolon is out all the time, 24x7 just in case he dies or is dismissed I can spend the minute to summon him.
I built my eidolon as a quadruped. I am a gnome.. I pretty much gave him those skills I don't normally take. i.e.. climb, swim..etc. and I am almost always riding him. He is medium so I can dungeon crawl and his speed is double mine. I gave him these evolutions:
4th level eidolon
mount
improved damage (bite)
reach (bite)
limbs (arms)
claws
pounce
I am waiting to do the whole charge/pounce attack. it will be sweet but not my primary focus. I am working on getting my eidolon to be able to do AoO from as far away as possible.
btw, has anyone defined the Reach evolution on if you can take that multiple times with the same attack? i.e... reach x2 (bite)
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by shogahin
you can't. If you summon an Eidolon that day then dismiss it, you can't bring it back without using the Summon Eidolon spell. Now, if your like me, then your Eidolon is out all the time, 24x7 just in case he dies or is dismissed I can spend the minute to summon him.
Incorrect, you can only not re-summon him through normal means if he dies, not if he's dismissed. Additionally, your Eidolon cannot be out 24x7, as it is dimissed whenever you're asleep, and if he's dies, he can't be resummoned until the following day, period.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
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Originally Posted by Reverent-One
Incorrect, you can only not re-summon him through normal means if he dies, not if he's dismissed. Additionally, your Eidolon cannot be out 24x7, as it is dimissed whenever you're asleep, and if he's dies, he can't be resummoned until the following day, period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Summon Eidolon
If you cast this spell while your eidolon is already on your plane, this spell has no effect. This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due to damage.
[/nitpick]
Quote:
When I first read this, it seemed to me that "dead" should be one of the conditions removed - Which would make Purified Calling a pretty good spell. However, the section on summoning says that:
Considering the fact that the second level spell allows you to get it back from death, I'd imagine that Purified calling is supposed to be able to bring it back. Given the fact that the eidolon is readily resummonable after death, it's fair to say that death isn't that permanent of a condition in these regards.
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverent-One
Incorrect, you can only not re-summon him through normal means if he dies, not if he's dismissed. Additionally, your Eidolon cannot be out 24x7, as it is dimissed whenever you're asleep, and if he's dies, he can't be resummoned until the following day, period.
oh, my error on several points. I sometimes don't stop and consider some of the other effects and how they relate.
If the eidolon dies, he can't be resummoned using the Summoner class ability but he could be summoned by the summon eidolon spell.
If the eidolon is dismissed he can be resummoned using the Summoner class ability.
I keep forgetting the whole "asleep he is dismissed" thing.
I'm still thinking the Summoner isn't as flexible as he was supposed to be. Heres my thoughts on some changes.
1) allow the Summoner to have all 3 forms available. Only one form at a time. This aspect has always confused me. I have tried getting an answer as the "why" on 1 but I got no responses. The rules cannot be misconstrued or abused on the forms.
2) the Eidolon doesn't go away untill "killed" or dismissed.
Just seems to me that the Summoner is being punished for having the eidolon.
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by shogahin
I'm still thinking the Summoner isn't as flexible as he was supposed to be.
With all due respect, if you don't find the flexibility of a build-it-yourself extra party member to be sufficient, play a Wizard. Or a Cleric.
The Summoner is strong Tier 3, bordering on Tier 2 due to spell-list level hilarity.
Commentary:
Remember that the eidolon, if killed, "respawns" the next day with half health, although it does not heal naturally. This is awesome. You can have the eidolon kamikaze attack the boss and not feel bad when it dies.
Having all 3 forms available is a minor boost, but runs into flavor issues. It seems strange for your "constant companion" to be mutable at will. Just think if the Eidolon was customizable at any moment - having all 3 forms begins to walk down that road.
Being dismissed while asleep does prevent you from using the eidolon as a night watchman in lieu of yourself, and it does make for irritating moments when you fail a Will save mid-combat and lose your Eidolon because of it. Minor boost, but not an insignificant one.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Thanks grarrrg for your answers,
I have another question that I haven't been able to find a answer to. Can the Evolution Surge spells be applied to aspect? Thoughts?
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by balistafreak
With all due respect, if you don't find the flexibility of a build-it-yourself extra party member to be sufficient, play a Wizard. Or a Cleric.
The Summoner is strong Tier 3, bordering on Tier 2 due to spell-list level hilarity.
Commentary:
Having all 3 forms available is a minor boost, but runs into flavor issues. It seems strange for your "constant companion" to be mutable at will. Just think if the Eidolon was customizable at any moment - having all 3 forms begins to walk down that road.
Not sure what you mean by "Flavor issues". By Raw you can't have more than 1 eidolon out at a time.. you can't even start the ritual without dismissing your eidolon. then your limited on how many times you can even summon your eidolon per day. and no, you can't summon 1 eidolon type by special ability and another type by summon eidolon spell..
this will just allow a bit more flexibility to the summoner.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
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