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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
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Originally Posted by Tael
I know it was mentioned, but I was wondering about it's actual mechanical viability. Is it better? Worse? About the same?
It's a matter of cost of materials, mostly. The thing with the Kali build is, as grarrrg already mentioned, lots of quality weapons becomes a huge money sink. It suffers the same issues as other eidilons with lots of attacks and DR, though with the added issue of not being able to PA through it, since Kali depends on light weapons to keep her attack penalties down. Ultimately, it comes down to a combination of how much WBL you want to invest and whether you want to diversify your evolution points, since you won't be spending them all on powering up your natural attacks. I'd say it's about the same, power-wise, just coming from a different angle.
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Originally Posted by evilbob
I'm confused; claws are not secondary attacks - unless something makes them secondary? But if that's the case, then the earlier pouncer build is wrong, since it uses a bite and two claws and has them both at the same +4 to damage. Also, secondary attacks would suffer a -5 to-hit, and the claws don't in either example.
This is what I get from answering off my memory of how the evolutions work, instead of actually reading it before posting. You are correct that the claws are primaries, so they are getting full Strength to damage. I can only guess that Saph forgot that the claws aren't light secondaries, and can get PA to damage.
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Originally Posted by Tael
Actually you don't get fewer attacks, you probably get more, but with the PF rules on Primary and Secondary, nat attacks will do more per hit, and have +2 to hit.
Is there something I'm missing about natural attacks being enchantable? Because I don't see why everyone says weapons are more expensive.
2300 + cost of weapon for +1 weapons gets expensive in multiples and gets worse if you try to go higher, adding 6k per weapon for +2 and so one and so forth. It just gets ridiculously expensive. Weapons are more modular in getting enchants on 'em, unlike natural weapons, it's just you'll pay for it out the ass where the natural attacker will be going for an amulet of mighty fists and getting a bulk discount on one mass enchant, plus other stuff.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
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Originally Posted by Cieyrin
2300 + cost of weapon for +1 weapons gets expensive in multiples and gets worse if you try to go higher, adding 6k per weapon for +2 and so one and so forth. It just gets ridiculously expensive. Weapons are more modular in getting enchants on 'em, unlike natural weapons, it's just you'll pay for it out the ass where the natural attacker will be going for an amulet of mighty fists and getting a bulk discount on one mass enchant, plus other stuff.
Ah, my bad, I thought that the amulet only did one set of attacks.
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
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Originally Posted by evilbob
Would taking the Grab evolution basically negate this, though?
No, the grab evolution is what allows you to do this. A regular fighter grappling can't even do it RAW. You need Tenacious Grapple which to my knowledge is something that only krakens have.
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
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Originally Posted by Cieyrin
Going by how wielding multiple crossbows is handled, I'd say it's safe to assume that bows aren't light weapons and you'd have the -4 for all attacks with Multiweapon Fighting.
Actually, you got me wondering: light crossbows say they can be used in each hand as a light weapon. Does that mean you could have two light crossbows in two sets of hands and the second one would be "light"? Rapid Reload would be required, but would this work?
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
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Originally Posted by Dax the monk
I no in SS it talked about using multiple hands on a weapon has PF covered that at all
It hasn't been brought up since SS, much like the grapple bonus for multiple sets of arms hasn't surfaced since Sword and Fist. Do I still use 'em? Yes, as, if we're going all 3.P, 3.0 material is still grandfathered in. Pure PF would have that as a negatory, at least as far as I'm aware.
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Originally Posted by evilbob
Actually, you got me wondering: light crossbows say they can be used in each hand as a light weapon. Does that mean you could have two light crossbows in two sets of hands and the second one would be "light"? Rapid Reload would be required, but would this work?
The weapons stay treated as light regardless of the number of hands you use for 'em in terms of two/multiweapon fighting. The only difference between Crossbows Akimbo for a two-armer vs. a Multiarmed Menace is the MM can reload its crossbows without hax the normal guy has to deal with.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cieyrin
This is what I get from answering off my memory of how the evolutions work, instead of actually reading it before posting. You are correct that the claws are primaries, so they are getting full Strength to damage. I can only guess that Saph forgot that the claws aren't light secondaries, and can get PA to damage.
If you use a wielded weapon, all your natural attacks become secondary attacks. Otherwise claws stay primary attacks as normal.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Guide updated to include the noncore, monstrous races, and psionic races helpfully reviewed by grarrrg. :)
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Ultimate Magic is being added to the PFsrd.
A few varieties of Summoner are included, as well as some Summoner specific feats.
Of particular note is the Extra Evolution feat, it can grant up to 5 extra Evolution points. Now SUPERMEGAAWESOME but useful nonetheless.
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by grarrrg
Ultimate Magic is being added to the PFsrd.
A few varieties of Summoner are included, as well as some Summoner specific feats.
Of particular note is the Extra Evolution feat, it can grant up to 5 extra Evolution points. Now SUPERMEGAAWESOME but useful nonetheless.
That's an extra ten if you combine it with a half-elf, that's almost half of what an Eidolon gets. Of course it costs you all 20 skill points or 20 hp and half of your feats..
Also, I really want to like that Broodmaster but it just looks so incredibly gimped. You can't stack damage bonuses in any way due to how the feats are divided and you can't stack attacks with the maximum natural attack thing split. You would end up with two or more eidolons, but together they'd do less damage than a regular one...which is just sad.
Last edited by jackoftales : 05-15-2011 at 12:17 PM.
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackoftales
Also, I really want to like that Broodmaster but it just looks so incredibly gimped. You can't stack damage bonuses in any way due to how the feats are divided and you can't stack attacks with the maximum natural attack thing split. You would end up with two or more eidolons, but together they'd do less damage than a regular one...which is just sad.
Agreed.
They do mention that a Broodmaster could make a decent PC if there is only one Player, as they'd have their Eidolons to fill various roles.
It would be better if you didn't have to share most abilities/points evenly, then you could make a combat worthless Skill-dolon, and still have a (slightly less) hulking-brute-war-dolon.
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
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Originally Posted by Akal Saris
I must say, the Master Summoner ACF is more in line with what I originally wanted from the class
Halving the Eidolon's progression is a pretty significant hit. I'd try to get a DM to houserule allowing you to have out the SLA and the Eidolon at the same time. I don't think that the ability to have out a single SLA and the Eidolon at the same time is significant enough to warrant HALF of the eidolon progression. They already have low HD.
Overall, I was really excited to see these archetypes but I'm pretty disappointed by them in play. They are all cool concepts but seem to drastically weaken the summoner's power.
Obviously power isn't everything, but I would hate to be significantly less useful to a party in combat.
Maybe I can convince the DM to take the Broodmaster idea and alter it in a few ways to make it viable..
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
I personally think the most important thing here is Resilient Eidolon, which lets your Eidolon stick around for a few rounds after you would normally lose it, enough time for your mates to get you back in action. No more getting sleep'd for one measly round, insta-gibbing your eidolon for the encounter.
I really like Synthesist. Traditional Summoner still has more power due to action economy, but being a hulking natural attacking-machine that also casts spells in its spare time is pretty sweet. It's not Totemist, it's Totemist+.
Also, Synthesist can dump, Dump, DUMP his physical stats. Since you use the Eidolon's physical stats regardless of whether or not yours are better... well, yeah. (Maybe keep some Constitution, just in case.) Fused Link is what Life Link should have been.
Just don't expect to summon a monster, ever.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by grarrrg
Agreed.
They do mention that a Broodmaster could make a decent PC if there is only one Player, as they'd have their Eidolons to fill various roles.
It would be better if you didn't have to share most abilities/points evenly, then you could make a combat worthless Skill-dolon, and still have a (slightly less) hulking-brute-war-dolon.
Wait, what? Where does it say you have to split things evenly?
Looking at the Broodmaster Summoner has left me with a few questions. How do the item slot restrictions carry over to the Brood? Can only one eidolon wear a belt slot item? If you purchase the Large evolution to give yourself two medium Eidolon's, can you buy the large evolution on each of them separately as well (once you hit level 9, anyway) or does that interfere with the only taking evolutions once rule?
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
The syntheist might be able to out-rogue the rogue. Dropping an evo into skilled for stealth, throwing greater invis around, then dip a level of rogue to get sneak attack damage, pick up energy attacks for massive damages.
Accurate, and saddening. I wanted to summon lots of critters, not be an Eidolon with a pet gnome (or apparently HE/human).
Great guide, love the thought of a stealth base summoner. I was kinda doing this with mine, as I backed up a rogue on stealth runs by giving flanks.
Astral Constructs and Midnight Constructs might work better in that line of desires; they are both Eidolons you remake each day to summon. Or Malconvoker.
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Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
Finding out that the ennui and cynicism of our times is not, after all, an unavoidable unreverseable fate does kind of throw your world-view off, potentially.
Accurate, and saddening. I wanted to summon lots of critters, not be an Eidolon with a pet gnome (or apparently HE/human).
Then the master summoner from Ultimate magic may be the one for you. You get more uses of the Summon Monster SLA (that you can cast as a standard action and lasts mins/level) and can have multiple summons out at one time, rather than just the one for the basic summoner.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
I've heard somewhere that an eidolon can use shield without penalty, without taking a feat. I just can't find anything written about that. Assuming this guy wasnt full of it, can someone tell me where i can find this?
Hmm. Now I'm not sure. A combination of mis-reading, and an example that implies even split.
Quote:
...but the rest of the eidolons’ base statistics must be divided between the eidolons, including...
I think I mentally added the word "evenly" to the above.
On the other hand.
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The broodmaster decides to give the first eidolon...2 points from the evolution pool...The remaining...2 points from the evolution pool go to the second eidolon
Between misreading and the above example I thought it must be evenly. This appears to (maybe) not be the case.
I say "maybe" because Ultimate Magic needs errata. Badly.
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by grarrrg
I say "maybe" because Ultimate Magic needs errata. Badly.
Except this isn't really an area that requires it. The rules don't say you have to divide evenly, so you don't. Just because they split it evenly in the example doesn't mean you have to, it's just how a single example did it.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
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Originally Posted by Conkea
I've heard somewhere that an eidolon can use shield without penalty, without taking a feat. I just can't find anything written about that. Assuming this guy wasnt full of it, can someone tell me where i can find this?
Any non caster can do this, by using a shield without ACP.
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
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Originally Posted by Reverent-One
Except this isn't really an area that requires it. The rules don't say you have to divide evenly, so you don't. Just because they split it evenly in the example doesn't mean you have to, it's just how a single example did it.
Ultimate Magic still needs errata.
And it is possible that this will receive it, whether it works currently or not, it may not have been the intent.
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by grarrrg
Ultimate Magic still needs errata.
And it is possible that this will receive it, whether it works currently or not, it may not have been the intent.
And maybe it should only be able to summon one extra eidolon no matter what and the large/huge evolutions will be errata'd. But I doubt it. There's no reason to assume that it needs to be errata'd that you have to spilt evenly.
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Last edited by Reverent-One : 05-21-2011 at 03:01 PM.
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverent-One
And maybe it should only be able to summon one extra eidolon no matter what and the large/huge evolutions will be errata'd. But I doubt it. There's no reason to assume that it needs to be errata'd that you have to spilt evenly.
Ok, I'm going to say this as plainly as possible this time.
I was wrong about it being evenly split.
I admitted that.
I mentioned that MAYBE it would get errata.
NOT that it SHOULD get errata, NOT that it NEEDED errata.
There are plenty of other places in Ultimate Magic that DO NEED errata, enough that it seems like the book may have been rushed out.
It does not need errata. There is a possibility that it MIGHT get errata. That is all that I meant.
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by grarrrg
Ok, I'm going to say this as plainly as possible this time.
I was wrong about it being evenly split.
I admitted that.
I mentioned that MAYBE it would get errata.
NOT that it SHOULD get errata, NOT that it NEEDED errata.
There are plenty of other places in Ultimate Magic that DO NEED errata, enough that it seems like the book may have been rushed out.
It does not need errata. There is a possibility that it MIGHT get errata. That is all that I meant.
Well yes, I was just saying that for all we know, any specific piece of information in there MIGHT get errata.
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Don't know if this has been asked yet, but have the new options from Ultimate Magic been judged here? I'm thinking of playing a Synthesist whose eidolon is an angelic being, much like a certain terrorist mage I'm sure many of use are familiar with, and I'm wondering if the Synthesist is a good route.
Also Ultimate Magic offers some basic eidolon setups of their own. How do they hold up compared to the ones here?
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