[3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

[Tvtyrant]

Originally Posted by Sylivin

Remember that you get 2 claws for 1 evo point. So you end up with 2 primary attacks for 3 points. Meanwhile it costs 2 points for a stinger upgrade (1 for tail, 1 for stinger). So it ends up costing 4 points for 2 primary attacks if you go the tail route. Plus with the bonus of rend... tends to be better over all to go with claws both for evo point useage and overall damage per round.

I would argue that you get 5 points for 3 primary attacks with the tail; tail slap and the stinger do not cancel each other. But I take your point.

[IthroZada]

Originally Posted by Sylivin

Remember that you get 2 claws for 1 evo point. So you end up with 2 primary attacks for 3 points. Meanwhile it costs 2 points for a stinger upgrade (1 for tail, 1 for stinger). So it ends up costing 4 points for 2 primary attacks if you go the tail route. Plus with the bonus of rend... tends to be better over all to go with claws both for evo point useage and overall damage per round.

You aren't adding in the costs of having enough limbs for all those attacks. So, claws are cheaper until you've used up your current number of limbs.

[TwylyghT]

I find my self amused by the thought of a ranged mounted build, mounted archery on yourself, and a mountable eidolon, plus arms, dodge, mobility, and shot on the run. With some added legs it could be a real chore chasing you down.

Also, if a medium summoner merges with a small eidolon, do you get Kuato from Total Recall?

Now for a more serious change in direction, I notice that starting at level 12, your eidolon has fallen 3 levels behind you at 9 HD to your 12, now being that it certainly has a higher INT than 3, and you certainly have a high CHA, could you designate the eidolon as a cohort with the Leadership feat and earn it some class levels up to the usual 2 below your own? If allowed to work that could certainly help the multiclass issues the class faces.

[Sylivin]

Originally Posted by IthroZada

You aren't adding in the costs of having enough limbs for all those attacks. So, claws are cheaper until you've used up your current number of limbs.

Eh? Limbs are 2 points and claws are 1, so you get 2 primary attacks for 3 points. Am I missing something?

[Larpus]

Originally Posted by Tvtyrant

I would argue that you get 5 points for 3 primary attacks with the tail; tail slap and the stinger do not cancel each other. But I take your point.

Are you sure?

I thought there was a rule somewhere saying that each set of limbs (arms, legs, tail, head, etc) only got one (two in the case of arms and legs) attack per round, regardless of how many natural weapons are there, but I can't seem to be able to find it.

Otherwise you can also add Slam to arms and get 3 attacks for 4 evos.

[Tvtyrant]

Originally Posted by Larpus

Are you sure?

I thought there was a rule somewhere saying that each set of limbs (arms, legs, tail, head, etc) only got one (two in the case of arms and legs) attack per round, regardless of how many natural weapons are there, but I can't seem to be able to find it.

Otherwise you can also add Slam to arms and get 3 attacks for 4 evos.

Except that slams explicitly say you can't do that, the tail attacks don't. There might be a general rule, but someone would have to post a link to it.

[IthroZada]

Originally Posted by Sylivin

Eh? Limbs are 2 points and claws are 1, so you get 2 primary attacks for 3 points. Am I missing something?

I for some reason thought that you gained one limb at a time, instead of a pair. So, I am incorrect.

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by IthroZada

Double post.

You can delete posts from the edit button, y'know.

[IthroZada]

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

You can delete posts from the edit button, y'know.

I know now.

[Tvtyrant]

Seeing as how this is the summoners handbook, what tier would a summoner be if it were a 3.5 class? I think bottom 2 or upper 3 (really goes from 3 to 2 with upper level spells IMO, Gate for instance) but I could be wrong.

[Sylivin]

Considering they can also create their own planes now as well I'd guess around 2.

[Qing Guang]

What was the final consensus on the Broodmaster?

I've decided one of my two major boss NPCs will be a Summoner, and I was considering having him be a Broodmaster. At the very least it would give the party more to focus on, but if it gimps him I'd rather go with the vanilla Summoner.

[Curious]

Originally Posted by Qing Guang

What was the final consensus on the Broodmaster?

I've decided one of my two major boss NPCs will be a Summoner, and I was considering having him be a Broodmaster. At the very least it would give the party more to focus on, but if it gimps him I'd rather go with the vanilla Summoner.

If you want lots of minions, it's probably better to go with the Summon Monster option rather than Broodmaster.

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by Qing Guang

What was the final consensus on the Broodmaster?

I've decided one of my two major boss NPCs will be a Summoner, and I was considering having him be a Broodmaster. At the very least it would give the party more to focus on, but if it gimps him I'd rather go with the vanilla Summoner.

Master Summoner works better for having a swarm for creatures, as Broodmaster's Eidolons are overly gimped. It would have worked better as having multiple Eidolons with an effective Summoner level penalty. But, them's the breaks.

[Starbuck_II]

FAQ reversed ruling:
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9obe

Now you no longer limited with manufactored attacks (by BAb/Haste/etc) by Nat Attack limit by Eidolon level when fused.

[Curious]

Originally Posted by Tvtyrant

Seeing as how this is the summoners handbook, what tier would a summoner be if it were a 3.5 class? I think bottom 2 or upper 3 (really goes from 3 to 2 with upper level spells IMO, Gate for instance) but I could be wrong.

As you said, probably at the upper end of tier 3 for the early levels, and then rocketing into tier 2 when higher level spells are engaged.

[CTrees]

Well, that's how I figured it worked, anyway.

However, the Synthesist gains the bonuses from the Skilled evolution? Friggin' sweet! +8 to one skill check (especially at low levels) is HUGE

Also, I don't think the way the Synthesist is worded should mean that he can't use (say) a chain shirt as well (and I've gone in depth on this argument), but the FAQ certain puts a firm "no" on that. Which is probably good (I'm going to think of it as errata). The much happier "clarification" (errata) is BAB for a synthesist - it stacks with other classes! That's awesome, and makes synthesist dips soooooo much better.

Appreciate this link!

[MeeposFire]

Originally Posted by Starbuck_II

FAQ reversed ruling:
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9obe

Now you no longer limited with manufactored attacks (by BAb/Haste/etc) by Nat Attack limit by Eidolon level when fused.

Took them long enough.

[WildPyre]

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

Master Summoner works better for having a swarm for creatures, as Broodmaster's Eidolons are overly gimped. It would have worked better as having multiple Eidolons with an effective Summoner level penalty. But, them's the breaks.

I fail to see how Master Summoner is good for anything. Having your Eidolon at 1/2 the level of normal in place of getting to use one instance of your Summon Monster ability? Congrats you just gimped your big class feature for something you could have done with a wand, scroll, or by simply casting the spell yourself like normal.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't justify losing Shield Ally and half your Eidolon's levels to get a single casting of Summon Monster (Gate if you're high enough) through your Summon Monster class ability.

[Reverent-One]

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

Master Summoner works better for having a swarm for creatures, as Broodmaster's Eidolons are overly gimped. It would have worked better as having multiple Eidolons with an effective Summoner level penalty. But, them's the breaks.

What effective summoner level penalty would you think is appropriate?

Originally Posted by Starbuck_II

FAQ reversed ruling:
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9obe

Now you no longer limited with manufactored attacks (by BAb/Haste/etc) by Nat Attack limit by Eidolon level when fused.

They also confirmed you do not get the bonus from the armor the summoner wears.

Originally Posted by WildPyre

I fail to see how Master Summoner is good for anything. Having your Eidolon at 1/2 the level of normal in place of getting to use one instance of your Summon Monster ability? Congrats you just gimped your big class feature for something you could have done with a wand, scroll, or by simply casting the spell yourself like normal.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't justify losing Shield Ally and half your Eidolon's levels to get a single casting of Summon Monster (Gate if you're high enough) through your Summon Monster class ability.

You seem to be missing the fact that you can have multiple castings of the Summon Monster Class ability up with the master summoner archetype.

[WildPyre]

Originally Posted by Reverent-One

You seem to be missing the fact that you can have multiple castings of the Summon Monster Class ability up with the master summoner archetype.

Hmm I'd say that only works when your Eidolon isn't out but at half it's level, you may as well put baby in the corner.

Seems like it would be good in the end game when you can gate in crazy powerful stuff, but early and mid game I think I'd still rather have the Eidolon at full powered murder machine.

[Reverent-One]

Originally Posted by WildPyre

Hmm I'd say that only works when your Eidolon isn't out but at half it's level, you may as well put baby in the corner.

That is correct.

Seems like it would be good in the end game when you can gate in crazy powerful stuff, but early and mid game I think I'd still rather have the Eidolon at full powered murder machine.

Still, if you're specifically looking for someone with a swarm of summons, the Master Summoner does a decent job at that.

[WildPyre]

Originally Posted by Reverent-One

That is correct.

*sighs and face palms*

Yes if you take that out of context of the rest of the sentence you look very clever for pointing out that I said something obvious... though if you read it in context you'll realize I was indicating that it's drawback was actually moot and not helpful to my stance at all.

If it helps your comprehension any better feel free to replace "I'd say" with "I'd point out"

[MeeposFire]

They also reversed the share spells problem I mentioned in another thread. So enlarge is back for the synthesists because as I said in another thread they were making stuff up when they said it did not work.

[Reverent-One]

Originally Posted by WildPyre

*sighs and face palms*

Yes if you take that out of context of the rest of the sentence you look very clever for pointing out that I said something obvious... though if you read it in context you'll realize I was indicating that it's drawback was actually moot and not helpful to my stance at all.

If it helps your comprehension any better feel free to replace "I'd say" with "I'd point out"

I was merely confirming your reading of the rules, and wasn't intent on changing the context of the message. You would be right to say "I'd point out" rather than "I'd say", though since the latter implies at least a little bit of uncertainty.

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by WildPyre

Hmm I'd say that only works when your Eidolon isn't out but at half it's level, you may as well put baby in the corner.

Seems like it would be good in the end game when you can gate in crazy powerful stuff, but early and mid game I think I'd still rather have the Eidolon at full powered murder machine.

Also note that, at least at first level, a Master Summoner is more powerful than a regular, as they have a min effective level of 1, so they have a full strength Eidilon + the ability to summon support for it.

Also note that a Master Summoner will probably have their Eidilon be less melee monster and more skill monkey/archer/mount with style. Think of it as an assistant/bodyguard while you send fodder in to deal with your problems.

As for Broodmaster, it depends on the number of eidilons you have out but i think for 2, a -2 effective Summoner level (min lvl 1) should work and then scale by 1 per extra eidilon you have out. I can't say how effective that is without playtesting it, that's just my gut impression.

[Larpus]

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

Also note that a Master Summoner will probably have their Eidilon be less melee monster and more skill monkey/archer/mount with style. Think of it as an assistant/bodyguard while you send fodder in to deal with your problems.

As for Broodmaster, it depends on the number of eidilons you have out but i think for 2, a -2 effective Summoner level (min lvl 1) should work and then scale by 1 per extra eidilon you have out. I can't say how effective that is without playtesting it, that's just my gut impression.

The Broodmaster can have some interesting combinations and ways to be used, still I don't see any way it'll be better than a full Eidolon, except for the action economy of picking the lock and fighting at the same time.

But Master Summoner looks quite bad at any level other than 1st. Even if he makes an skilldolon, the thing will have few ranks due to its half-everything deal, it can act as a minor meatshield, but don't forget that the Summoner entry doesn't mention that the Eidolon follows any and every order from you regardless of dangers to itself, so the DM can actually say that it won't obey you until you can beat Viridian's Gym and claim the earth badge.

Even so, it'll be quite squishy (squishier than you) and the progression will hurt bad if you're starting at the low levels (your Eidolon only ups a level at character level 4); seeing how the Summoner class is developed around the Eidolon feature, severing it in half without a significant plus somewhere else is not worth it for me, feels like a Bard who gives up half his Bardic Music versatility and power just so he can punch and play the guitar at once.

[CTrees]

Originally Posted by Larpus

don't forget that the Summoner entry doesn't mention that the Eidolon follows any and every order from you regardless of dangers to itself, so the DM can actually say that it won't obey you until you can beat Viridian's Gym and claim the earth badge.

Originally Posted by The Summoner entry

Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except...

Summoned, not called. Summoned creatures follow any and every order (that they understand/are capable of) from you, regardless of the dangers to themselves.

[Starbuck_II]

Originally Posted by Larpus

But Master Summoner looks quite bad at any level other than 1st. Even if he makes an skilldolon, the thing will have few ranks due to its half-everything deal, it can act as a minor meatshield, but don't forget that the Summoner entry doesn't mention that the Eidolon follows any and every order from you regardless of dangers to itself, so the DM can actually say that it won't obey you until you can beat Viridian's Gym and claim the earth badge.

That isn't how pokemon works.
If the monster is traded and if it is equal your character level: it might disobey. The badges get around this issue.
But a Master Summoners Eidolon is 1/2 level thus it will never disobey if using pokemon rules.

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by Larpus

The Broodmaster can have some interesting combinations and ways to be used, still I don't see any way it'll be better than a full Eidolon, except for the action economy of picking the lock and fighting at the same time.

But Master Summoner looks quite bad at any level other than 1st. Even if he makes an skilldolon, the thing will have few ranks due to its half-everything deal, it can act as a minor meatshield, but don't forget that the Summoner entry doesn't mention that the Eidolon follows any and every order from you regardless of dangers to itself, so the DM can actually say that it won't obey you until you can beat Viridian's Gym and claim the earth badge.

Even so, it'll be quite squishy (squishier than you) and the progression will hurt bad if you're starting at the low levels (your Eidolon only ups a level at character level 4); seeing how the Summoner class is developed around the Eidolon feature, severing it in half without a significant plus somewhere else is not worth it for me, feels like a Bard who gives up half his Bardic Music versatility and power just so he can punch and play the guitar at once.

Master Summoner is still better than Broodmaster, if only b/c the monsters that are out aren't sharing resources to the detriment of all.

As for the Skilldolon, it's not about the ranks, it's the Skilled Evolution which gives +8 to a skill. Pump mental stats and when they do get levels, they should get a fairly well-rounded number of skills.