[3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

[Larpus]

Did not know that difference between "summoned" and "called", that is nice to know, I've been scared of summoner-types all this time over nothing! Everyone always said how hard it was to bid the critters into doing what you want them to do and all that.

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

Master Summoner is still better than Broodmaster, if only b/c the monsters that are out aren't sharing resources to the detriment of all.

That depends on whether or not a Broodmaster is forced to split the resources equally, if not maybe there are some nice things to be done with it, possibly on par with Master Summoner because the skilldolon will have full skill ranks.

Though I do agree that until proper math and builds are made it does look like the worse option.

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

As for the Skilldolon, it's not about the ranks, it's the Skilled Evolution which gives +8 to a skill. Pump mental stats and when they do get levels, they should get a fairly well-rounded number of skills.

Indeed, they do get a nice bonus, at least in the lower levels, but I still believe that a normal Summoner can do it better overall, since it's not hard to make a punchdolon also be a skilldolon or, if you want to do that, rely 100% on Summons for battle and build a 100% skilldolon that only gets summoned when needed.

[Zejety]

Thank you, your guide really helps me a lot.

But I can't find the "Improved Bite" evolution you suggest for the Chomper.
Do you refer to taking Bite a second time? If yes, what's the point? Doesn't the chomper use 1½ his STR anyway because he only has one natural attack?

[WildPyre]

Originally Posted by Zejety

Thank you, your guide really helps me a lot.

But I can't find the "Improved Bite" evolution you suggest for the Chomper.
Do you refer to taking Bite a second time? If yes, what's the point? Doesn't the chomper use 1½ his STR anyway because he only has one natural attack?

Maybe it's supposed to be the "Improved Damage" evolution applied to Bite?

[Zejety]

Originally Posted by WildPyre

Maybe it's supposed to be the "Improved Damage" evolution applied to Bite?

Evolutions: Bite, Improved Bite, Improved Damage (Bite), Reach (Bite), Ability Increase (Strength), Trip (Bite), Poison (Bite)

emphasize mine

Nope =(

[Saph]

It's been so long since I wrote it I can't remember what it was originally supposed to be. Probably just a typo.

[Catharsis]

Good stuff.

I've been thinking of using the Master Summoner archetype, using several summons at once and keeping the (weakened) eidolon as basically a well-defended orbital radar platform, maybe with a wand of magic missile in hand so it can make itself useful.

Is that approach inferior to the regular full-eidolon approach?

[Paul H]

Hi

First I want to thank the OP for what is obvously a major piece of work, but have they considered the Synthesist (yet)?

Synthesists use brute force as apposed to fighters' tactical training, but are still very powerful.

I'm using one in the PFS campaign. Might have missed a trick in not giving my character Str 13 at 1st lvl. (Human Synthesist 2, Str 12 Dex 13 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 18), but I'll sort that out at 4th lvl. (Taking Pwr Attack at 5th).

Current Evo's Dex & Con, (for Str 17 Dex 15 Con 15), using Gt Sword (Heirloom).

Debating which is best:
1) Synthesist 5/Ninja xxx,
2) Synthesist xxxx
3) Synthesist 5/Oracle 1/Synthesist xxx

Both will have extra arms, so Pwr Attack with 2 weapons each round.

Option 1 grants new weapon profs, can use ki points for special stuff
Option 2 grants full caster levels, better Evo's, but limited to simple weapons (plus the Gt Sword)
Option 3 (Battle Mystery) allows some extra spells, inc (CLW), plus Wpn profs in Martial Wpns, so could wield 2 Gt Swords.

What do people think?

Remember, characters 'retire' at 12th lvl in PFS.

Thanks
Paul H

[Gnaeus]

I second this. I would also like to see more analysis of the Synthesist. It looks like a good tier 3 melee option, but I'm not sure how it would play.

[Sarone]

Are you saying you and your Eidolon wielding greatswords?

[Paul H]

Hi

First - I don't understand what people mean by Tier xx. Can anyone help us out?

Here's a suggestion:

Human Synthesist

Str 13 Dex 13 Con 13 Int 10 Wis 11 Cha 18

1) Dodge, Toughness. EVO (Dex, Nat AC) [Str 16 Dex 14 Con 13 Nat AC 4] Traits; Heirloom Wpn (Gt Sword)
2) EVO (Dex Con) [Str 17 Dex 15 Con 15 Nat AC 4]
3) Pwr ATtack. EVO (Dex, Con, Nat AC) [Str 17, Dex 15, Con 15, Nat AC +6]
4) +1 Cha: EVO (Dex, Con, Extra Arms, Nat AC)
5) Arcane Strike. EVO (Dex, Con, Extra Arms, Flight) [Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16*, Nat AC +6] *Inc +1 for lvl.
6) EVO (Dex, Con, Extra Arms, Flight, Nat AC) [Nat +8]
7) Wpn Prof Nodachi. EVO (Dex, Con, Extra Arms x2, Flight) [Str 19, Dex 17, Nat AC +8]
8) +1 Cha. EVO (Dex, Con, Extra Arms x2, Flight, Nat AC) [Nat AC +10]
9) Cleave. EVO (Dex, Con, Extra Arms x3, Flight, Nat AC)
10) EVO (Dex, Con, Extra Arms x3, Flight, Gills, Swim) [Str 20, Dex 18, Con 17, Nat AC +10]

Items in () are Evolutions. Those in [] are net results.

At Lvl 10 you have 4 Attacks w/Nodachi's, Base AC 25, 161HP (93 Synth + 68 Eidolon, using PFS format).

Thanks
Paul H
Edit: @ Sarone, No - I 'wear' Eidolon, the Eidolon 'wields' Gt Sword.

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by Paul H

First - I don't understand what people mean by Tier xx. Can anyone help us out?

The Tier system is a scale of power relating how base classes compare to one another in effectiveness in dealing with the problems that adventurers do. They go from Tier 6, which is not very effective at most anything (Commoner) through Tier 1, where you can do everything, even better than the those classes supposedly specialized in that area (Wizard, Cleric, Archivist, Druid, Artificer).

Here's the write-up: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=1002.0

It's used to quickly explain power and versatility and is a good measuring stick in terms of effectiveness.

[Paul H]

Hi

Big TY for that.

Seen it for years & understood it was some ranking system, just had no idea of the specifics.

Cheers
Paul H

[Larpus]

Originally Posted by Paul H

Debating which is best:
1) Synthesist 5/Ninja xxx,
2) Synthesist xxxx
3) Synthesist 5/Oracle 1/Synthesist xxx

It depends on whether or not your DM makes a fuss over having big sized equipment, but I'd go Synthesist 6, grab the Large evo and use Reduce Person when needed, the points spent on Large are better than the same amount spent elsewhere damage-wise.

[Paul H]

Hi

Unfortunately, Large Weapons aren't allowed in Pathfinder Society campaign. (Or are special access only).

On other hand, Enlarge Person is on the Summoner's Spell List.

Thanks
Paul H

[CTrees]

Large requires Summoner 8. Synth10/Paladin2 gets you some insane saves and other goodies, including martial weapon prof, while keeping third level spells.

[Larpus]

Originally Posted by CTrees

Large requires Summoner 8. Synth10/Paladin2 gets you some insane saves and other goodies, including martial weapon prof, while keeping third level spells.

Whoops, you're right, it's indeed level 8.

[panaikhan]

I'd love to see something on the Synthesist too.
I'm playing a halfling Synthesist in a 'tank' roll, aiming to keep the opposition engaged long enough for our Ranger to kill them (or finish them off myself).

There seems to be a big 'issue' with Enlarge / Reduce Person. Spell says 'target', but Eidolon share ability specifies 'self'. Also, Eidolon ignores 'humanoid' requirement, but Synthesist doesn't (and now counts as outsider).

Aiming for the Large evolution anyway, because the evolution offers way better bonuses then the spell (besides the fact that I chose a quadruped form to begin with, and don't think I qualify because of it)

[Barstro]

Originally Posted by panaikhan

I'd love to see something on the Synthesist too.
I'm playing a halfling Synthesist in a 'tank' roll, aiming to keep the opposition engaged long enough for our Ranger to kill them (or finish them off myself).

There seems to be a big 'issue' with Enlarge / Reduce Person. Spell says 'target', but Eidolon share ability specifies 'self'. Also, Eidolon ignores 'humanoid' requirement, but Synthesist doesn't (and now counts as outsider).

Aiming for the Large evolution anyway, because the evolution offers way better bonuses then the spell (besides the fact that I chose a quadruped form to begin with, and don't think I qualify because of it)

My ruling; Enlarge / Reduce person does not work if cast by anyone other than the Synthesist. It DOES work if the Synthesist casts it on himself and both Synthesist and his Eidolon suit enlarge.

What do you think you don't qualify for? Quads can get large, they just don't get the extra reach that Bipeds get.

[MeeposFire]

Originally Posted by panaikhan

I'd love to see something on the Synthesist too.
I'm playing a halfling Synthesist in a 'tank' roll, aiming to keep the opposition engaged long enough for our Ranger to kill them (or finish them off myself).

There seems to be a big 'issue' with Enlarge / Reduce Person. Spell says 'target', but Eidolon share ability specifies 'self'. Also, Eidolon ignores 'humanoid' requirement, but Synthesist doesn't (and now counts as outsider).

Aiming for the Large evolution anyway, because the evolution offers way better bonuses then the spell (besides the fact that I chose a quadruped form to begin with, and don't think I qualify because of it)

Enlarge spell works due to the shared spell ability. A synthesist casts enlarge person on himself and shares it with the eidolon. Only the synthesist can do it. Initially the FAQ missed this part but they changed it later.

[Aurenthal]

Originally Posted by Saph

Chomper (Dog Form)

Spoiler

Base Form: Quadruped or Biped
Evolutions: Bite, Improved Bite, Improved Damage (Bite), Reach (Bite), Ability Increase (Strength), Trip (Bite), Poison (Bite)
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Bite), Improved Natural Attack, Combat Reflexes/Lunge, Ability Focus (Poison)

This build goes a slightly different route: instead of lots of medium-strength attacks, you try to land one BIG attack, then use Combat Reflexes and Reach to make sure you get as many shots with it as possible. Stack as many conditions (such as Trip and Poison) onto the single hit as possible. Much lower damage potential than the first two forms, but unlike them you're not dependent on full attacks, meaning you don't have to stand toe-to-toe with the monsters and can move around.

I plan on playing a summoner for a PF campaign (level 9) and I plan to use this eidolon. I need to know: if Imp. Natural Attack (feat) and Imp. Damage (Evolution) can apply to the same basic attack. I guess they do, but my eidolon would be doing about 3d6 damage. And it seems unbalanced.

[MeeposFire]

If they do stack it isn't that big of a change. If they don't stack then you would deal 2d6 damage. The difference between that and 3d6 is on average 3.5 points of damage which is not much better than weapon specialization and that is considered to be a weak feat. Now if you can get even more size increases it starts making a bigger difference. It would be a worthwhile choice but it isn't that powerful on its own.

[Larpus]

I'd say that they stack, as pointed out, it's not that big of an advantage and comes out the same as wielding a large weapon and then being Enlarged, which does make your weapon huge.

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by MeeposFire

If they do stack it isn't that big of a change. If they don't stack then you would deal 2d6 damage. The difference between that and 3d6 is on average 3.5 points of damage which is not much better than weapon specialization and that is considered to be a weak feat. Now if you can get even more size increases it starts making a bigger difference. It would be a worthwhile choice but it isn't that powerful on its own.

Really, if INA is considered overpowered, I quiver to think if Vital Strike was pursued, since, as has pointed out a couple times in the Vital Strike thread, it works best on single attack monsters like the Chomper. 6d6 bite!

[Barstro]

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

Really, if INA is considered overpowered, I quiver to think if Vital Strike was pursued, since, as has pointed out a couple times in the Vital Strike thread, it works best on single attack monsters like the Chomper. 6d6 bite!

Interesting little feat. What exactly is "an attack action"? Does full attack work? How about AoO?

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by Barstro

Interesting little feat. What exactly is "an attack action"? Does full attack work? How about AoO?

Vital Strike refers specifically to the Attack action, which takes a standard action. A full attack or AoO is neither.

[Aurenthal]

Should Eidolon stats be rolled? or taken from the base form?

[nategar05]

You take it from the base form.

Great guide by the way, thanks!

I'm curious about what you all think of an all Summoner party. I thought it'd be an interesting thought experiment. With four Summoners and four Eidolons, you could cover the main roles in combat (Tank, Striker, Controller) and out of combat (Face, Scout, Utility). Granted, the roles probably couldn't be done as well as builds with other classes specifically designed for them, but Summoner is a very flexible class. Thoughts?

[Drothmal]

It could be a lot of fun, even more so if you use the archetypes to fill the roles more specifically

[Larpus]

Originally Posted by Aurenthal

Should Eidolon stats be rolled? or taken from the base form?

By RAW it's taken from the base forms, but it can be made into rolling I guess if everyone on the table rolled 16+ for nearly everything.

Originally Posted by nategar05

You take it from the base form.

Great guide by the way, thanks!

I'm curious about what you all think of an all Summoner party. I thought it'd be an interesting thought experiment. With four Summoners and four Eidolons, you could cover the main roles in combat (Tank, Striker, Controller) and out of combat (Face, Scout, Utility). Granted, the roles probably couldn't be done as well as builds with other classes specifically designed for them, but Summoner is a very flexible class. Thoughts?

Well, I guess an all-Summoner party could work surprisingly well; as you said, maybe not as good as a standard party, but is most probably one of the most effective "single class parties" out there due to Summoner's sheer versatility.

[Saph]

Two new sample builds added, contributed by nategar05.