[3.5 Base Class] The Warcraft Paladin [PEAR!]

Jarian · 02-13-2011, 05:35 AM

Paladin

"To protect the weak; to bring justice to the unjust; to vanquish evil from the darkest corners of creation. This is my calling. This I shall do, 'till death does take me."
- Atar Riserden, Human Paladin

Class Skills
The Paladin's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str)
Skills Points at Each Level: 4 + int

Alignment: Any Good. At his discretion, your DM may choose to allow Evil Paladins too, in which case all references to Good and Evil in the Paladin's abilities should be reversed, and all references to divine damage replaced by profane damage.

Hit Dice: d8

Level	BAB	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Special
1st	+1	+2	+0	+2	Auras, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seals, Word of Glory
2nd	+2	+3	+0	+3	Holy Light, Lay on Hands, Summon Charger
3rd	+3	+3	+1	+3	Hammer of Justice, Exorcism, Blessing of Kings
4th	+4	+4	+1	+4	Flash of Light, Hand of Protection
5th	+5	+4	+1	+4	Consecration, Holy Wrath, Hand of Reckoning
6th	+6/+1	+5	+2	+5	Divine Protection, Cleanse
7th	+7/+2	+5	+2	+5	Divine Plea, Divine Shield
8th	+8/+3	+6	+2	+6	Hammer of Wrath
9th	+9/+4	+6	+3	+6	Hand of Freedom
10th	+10/+5	+7	+3	+7	Rebuke
11th	+11/+6/+1	+7	+3	+7	Blessing of Might
12th	+12/+7/+2	+8	+4	+8	Divine Light
13th	+13/+8/+3	+8	+4	+8	Avenging Wrath
14th	+14/+9/+4	+9	+4	+9	Turn Evil
15th	+15/+10/+5	+9	+5	+9	Hand of Sacrifice
16th	+16/+11/+6/+1	+10	+5	+10	Mastery
17th	+17/+12/+7/+2	+10	+5	+10	Redemption
18th	+18/+13/+8/+3	+11	+6	+11	Holy Radiance
19th	+19/+14/+9/+4	+11	+6	+11	Inquisition
20th	+20/+15/+10/+5	+12	+6	+12	Guardian of Ancient Kings

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial melee weapons, and with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with all types of shields (including tower shields).

Specialization: At 1st level, a Paladin chooses a path in which to specialize. Each path unlocks different powerful abilities over the course of the Paladin's career, as shown on the individual table for each path. The choice of a path is permanent, representing the Paladin's dedication to a specific goal.

Holy Specialization:

Spoiler

Protection Specialization:

Spoiler

Retribution Specialization:

Spoiler

Auras (Su): All Paladins have access to several different auras, which radiate out to a distance of 60 feet. Projecting an aura is a swift action. An aura lasts until the Paladin chooses to project a new aura, or until he dismisses his current aura as a free action.

Concentration Aura: The Paladin and all allies within his aura gain a bonus on concentration checks equal to 1/2 his class level, rounded up.

Crusader Aura: The Paladin and all allies within his aura gain a +10 feet enhancement bonus to their base land speed.

Devotion Aura: The Paladin and all allies within his aura gain DR 1/-, stacking with any other forms of damage reduction. This damage reduction improves by 1 point when the Paladin reaches 5th level, and every 5 levels thereafter.

Resistance Aura: The Paladin and all allies within his aura gain resistance 1 to all forms of elemental damage. This resistance improves by 1 point when the Paladin reaches 5th level, and every 5 levels thereafter.

Retribution Aura: Whenever the Paladin or an ally within his aura is struck by a physical attack, the attaker takes divine damage equal to 1/4 the Paladin's class level, rounded up.

Seals (Su): All Paladins have access to several different Seals, which augment his their melee attacks in a variety of ways. Activating a Seal is a swift action, and a Seal lasts until the Paladin activates a new Seal, or dismisses his current Seal as a free action. Activating a Seal consumes 14 mana.

Seal of Insight: Whenever the Paladin hits with a melee attack, he has a 5% chance to heal himself for 1 hitpoint per Paladin level.

Unleashing the power of the Seal of Insight deals no bonus damage, but restores 15 mana.

Seal of Justice: Whenever the Paladin hits with a melee attack, he causes his foe's movement speed to be limited to it's normal base movement speed for one round, disregarding any non-permanent bonuses to that speed. At 9th level, the Paladin's melee attacks also cause his foe to be unable to benefit from any form of teleportation for the duration of the effect. At 13th level, the Paladin's melee attacks also cause his foe to be incapable of interplanar travel for the duration of the effect.

Seal of Righteousness: Whenever the Paladin hits with a melee attack, he deals additional 1 divine damage per three Paladin levels, rounded up.

Seal of Truth: Whenever the Paladin hits with a melee attack, he causes his target to take 1 divine damage per five Paladin levels at the start of each of its turns for two turns. Seal of Truth's periodic damage stacks up to five times, and refreshes its remaining duration whenever the Paladin lands a melee attack with the Seal active.

Mana: A Paladin's primary method of fueling his abilities is a pool of magical force known as mana. The Paladin's base mana pool consists of 100 points, which are drained away as he uses his abilities. A Paladin recovers a number of points of mana equal to his Wisdom modifier each hour, and fully restores his mana pool after resting for at least eight hours.

In addition to the base amount of mana available to him, a Paladin also receives bonus mana equal to his Wisdom modifier times five. Calculate this additional mana when the Paladin rests to recover his mana pool entirely.

Holy Power: A Paladin also has a secondary means of powering certain abilities. Whenever he hits with certain attacks, a Paladin generates a charge of Holy Power. A Paladin may have up to three charges of Holy Power at a time. If a Paladin does not generate a new charge of Holy Power within three rounds, he begins to lose one charge per round. Unless otherwise specified in the ability's description, all abilities that consume charges of Holy Power consume all of a Paladin's current charges; he cannot choose to release a lesser amount.

Crusader Strike (Ex): The most basic attack at a Paladin's disposal is the Crusader Strike. As an attack action, a Paladin may increase the base damage of his weapon by one step and deliver a single melee attack. If it hits, Crusader Strike generates one charge of Holy Power.

Crusader Strike may be used once per round.

Using Crusader Strike consumes 10 mana.

Judgement (Su): By calling on the power of his currently active Seal, the Paladin may strike an enemy within 10 feet with a spike of divine power. As an attack action, the Paladin may make a ranged touch attack against one enemy within range. If it hits, Judgement deals 1d3 divine damage per Paladin level, and an additional point of divine damage per level if the Paladin has any Seal other than the Seal of Insight active.

Judgement may be used once every two rounds.

Word of Glory (Su): As a swift action, a Paladin may consume all charges of Holy Power to heal an ally within 30 feet. The amount of healing varies based on the number of Holy Power charges consumed, as seen on the table below.

Holy Power	Healing
1	1 per two Paladin levels
2	1 per Paladin level
3	1d4 per Paladin level

Holy Light (Sp): As a full-round action, a Paladin of 2nd level or higher may heal an ally within 30 feet for 1d4 per class level.

Using Holy Light consumes 10 mana.

Lay on Hands (Su): Once per day, a Paladin of 2nd level or higher may flood the body of a touched ally with an immense surge of divine energy as a swift action. Lay on Hands heals the touched ally for an amount equal to the Paladin's full normal hitpoints, and leaves the target under the effect of Forbearance.

Forbearance: Any attempt to use Divine Shield, Hand of Protection, or Lay on Hands on a creature under the effects of Forebearance fails outright, but does not consume any resources or cause any of the failed abilities to become unavailable for use. Forbearance lasts for one minute from the time of initial application.

Summon Holy Charger (Sp): As a standard action, a Paladin of 2nd level or higher may summon a Holy Charger, a trusty celestial steed resembling a warhorse (or warpony, in the case of a Small Paladin), but unearthly in its perfection.

A Holy Charger has 1 HD for every two Paladin levels. Should the Holy Charger be reduced to 0HP or lower, it immediately disappears in a blast of golden radiance. The Paladin may resummon a slain Holy Charger as normal. A Paladin may only have one Holy Charger summoned at a time.

Holy Charger:

Spoiler

Exorcism (Su): As a standard action, a Paladin of 3rd level or higher may strike an enemy within 60 feet with a blast of divine power. If the Paladin succeeds on a ranged touch attack, his target takes 1d6 divine damage per Paladin level.

Using Exorcism consumes 30 mana.

Hammer of Justice (Su): As an attack action, a Paladin of 3rd level or higher may smite an enemy within 30 feet with a transparent hammer of divine force. If the target fails a Will save, DC (10+1/2 HD+Strength modifier) it is stunned for a number of rounds equal to the Paladin's Wisdom modifier (minimum of 1). Each time it takes damage, the number of rounds the target is stunned for is reduced by 1.

Using Hammer of Justice consumes 3 mana.

Hammer of Justice may be used every five rounds.

Blessing of Kings (Su): As a standard action, a Paladin of 3rd level or higher may place a blessing on all allies within 60 feet. All affected allies gain an enhancement bonus to all ability scores equal to 10% of their current score, rounded up, minimum of a +1 bonus to each score. In addition, all allies gain resistance to all energy types equal to 1/4 the Paladin's level, stacking with all other sources of energy resistance.

Blessing of Kings lasts for until dismissed (a standard action which may dismiss one or multiple copies of the ability, regardless of distance) or until another Blessing is used by the Paladin.

Using Blessing of Kings consumes 19 mana.

Flash of Light (Sp): As a standard action, a Paladin of 4th level or higher may heal an ally within 30 feet for 1d6 per class level.

Using Flash of Light consumes 30 mana.

Hand of Protection (Su): As a swift action, a Paladin of 4th level or higher may place a Hand of Protection over an ally within 30 feet, surrounding them with a shield of divine force and leaving them under the effect of Forbearance. The shield persists for two rounds, during which time the ally is immune to physical damage, but cannot attack via physical means.

Hand of Protection may be used twice per day, but no more than once per encounter.

Using Hand of Protection consumes 6 mana.

Consecration (Su): As a swift action, a Paladin of 5th level or higher may consecrate a 40 foot radius area centered on himself. At the beginning of each of the Paladin's turns, all enemies standing within the consecrated area take 1d4 divine damage per class level.

Consecration persists for 5 rounds. Only one area may be consecrated at a time.

Using Consecration consumes 55 mana.

Holy Wrath (Su): As an attack action, a Paladin of 5th level or higher may send bolts of holy power flying in all directions from his upraised hands. These bolts deal a total of 1d6 damage per class level, divided evenly amongst all enemies within 20 feet. Evil Outsiders and Undead struck by a bolt are stunned for one round, ignoring normal immunity to stunning.

Holy Wrath may be used every three rounds.

Using Holy Wrath consumes 20 mana.

Hand of Reckoning (Su): As a standard action, a Paladin of 5th level or higher may place a Hand of Reckoning upon a target creature, compelling it to attack him above all others. If the target fails a Will save, DC (10+1/2 HD+Str modifier) it is subjected to the effects of the Goad feat, except that this effect restricts all forms of attack, including those normally excluded by the feat. This effect lasts for three rounds, or until the Paladin places a Hand of Reckoning on a new target.

Using Hand of Reckoning consumes 3 mana.

Cleanse (Su): As a swift action, a Paladin of 6th level or higher may purge one disease and one poison effect from the body of an ally within 40 feet.

Cleanse consumes 14 mana when used.

Divine Protection (Su): As an immediate action, a Paladin of 6th level or higher may create a thin barrier of divine energy around his body. The barrier reduces all incoming hitpoint damage by 20% until the end of the second round that this ability is activated.

Divine Protection may be used once per minute.

Using Divine Protection consumes 3 mana.

Divine Plea (Su): As a free action, a Paladin of 7th level or higher may turn a portion of his divine powers inwards, refilling a fraction of his mana.

At the beginning of each of the Paladin's next two turns, he regains 5+Wisdom modifier points of mana. While Divine Plea is active, any healing done by the Paladin is reduced by 50%.

Divine Plea may be used once per encounter.

Divine Shield (Su): As a swift action, a Paladin of 7th level or higher may create a swirling field of yellow-white radiance around himself. The field negates any damage the Paladin would take, and turns aside all hostile spells directed at him, even if the spell would not allow for spell resistance. The Paladin is still subject to area of effect spells that do not deal damage, such as entangle or grease. For the purpose of this effect, area of effect incapacitation/death effects, such as wail of the banshee are considered damaging effects, and are negated by the Divine Shield.

Divine Shield lasts until the beginning of the second turn after the ability is used. While this ability is active, all damage dealt by the Paladin is reduced by half.

Using Divine Shield consumes 3 mana, and places the Forbearance effect on the Paladin.

Divine Shield may be used twice per day, but no more than once per encounter.

Hammer of Wrath (Su): As an attack action, a Paldin of 8th level or higher may hurl a hammer of light at an enemy below 1/4 of its maximum hitpoints within 40 feet. The Paladin is automatically aware if any enemy he can detect is vulnerable to this attack.

Striking with the hammer is a ranged attack, which deals 1d8 damage per class level.

Hammer of Wrath may be used every 2 rounds.

Using Hammer of Wrath consumes 12 mana.

Hand of Freedom (Su): As a swift action, a Paladin of 9th level or higher may place a Hand of Freedom upon an ally within 30 feet. The affected ally gains the effect of a freedom of movement spell for one round.

Hand of Freedom may be used every four rounds.

Using Hand of Freedom consumes 6 mana.

Rebuke (Su): As an immediate action, a Paladin of 10th level or higher may speak a single, stern word in the language of the gods themselves in an attempt to disrupt a spell being cast within 20 feet. The Paladin makes a dispel check, as if casting greater dispel magic, with his class level in place of the caster level. If successful, the spell is counterspelled and the target may not cast any spells from the same school of magic for two rounds.

Rebuke may be used every two rounds.

Using Rebuke consumes 10 mana.

Blessing of Might (Su): As a standard action, a Paladin of 11th level or higher may place a blessing on all allies within 60 feet. All affected allies deal 10% more damage with physical attacks. In addition, any allies that have a pool of mana restore 1 mana every round during an encounter.

Blessing of Might lasts until dismissed (a standard action that may dismiss one or multiple copies of the ability, regardless of distance) or until another Blessing is used by the Paladin.

Using Blessing of Might consumes 19 mana.

Divine Light (Sp): As a full-round action, a Paladin of 12th level or higher may heal an ally within 30 feet for 1d8 per class level.

Using Divine Light consumes 33 mana.

Avenging Wrath (Su): As a free action, a Paladin of 13th level or higher may flood his body with divine energy, filling him so full of holy radiance that his eyes flare with golden light, and wafts of shimmering golden mist escape his mouth and nose every time he breathes. For three rounds, the Paladin increases all damage and healing done by 20%.

Avenging Wrath may be used once per encounter.

Turn Evil (Su): As a standard action, a Paladin of 14th level or higher may attempt to make a single evildoer run from him in a panic. This ability functions as a Cleric's Turn Undead ability, with serveral notable differences.

Turn Evil affects only a single Evil-aligned target within 60 feet. The Evil creature may be of any type. The Paladin replaces all mentions of Charisma with Wisdom in the Turn Undead rules, and uses his Paladin level in place of his Cleric level for determining all effects. The Paladin may never destroy an Evil creature outright with this ability. Only one creature may be turned by the Paladin at a time.

Using Turn Evil consumes 9 mana.

Hand of Sacrifice (Su): As a swift action, a Paladin of 15th level or higher may place a Hand of Sacrifice on an ally within 30 feet. While the ally is affected by Hand of Sacrifice, 50% of any damage dealt to it is dealt to the Paladin instead, regardless of distance. Hand of Sacrifice lasts for two rounds, or until damage equal to the Paladin's full normal hitpoints has been transfered.

Hand of Sacrifice may be used once per encounter.

Hand of Sacrifice consumes 6 mana when used.

Mastery: At 16th level, a Paladin gains a potent increase to his abilities. The exact nature of this increase depends on the Paladin's specialization.

Holy Specialization - Illuminated Healing: Whenever the Paladin heals an ally directly, that ally gains temporary hitpoints equal to 15% of the healing. These temporary hitpoints last for up to ten minutes. Multiple applications of Illuminated Healing do not stack with each other; use the greater amount of temporary hitpoints either present on the ally or granted by this ability.

Protection Specialization - Divine Bulwark: While wielding a shield, the Paladin gains a +4 bonus to his Shield AC and may apply his Shield AC to touch attacks.

Retribution Specialization - Hand of Light: The Paladin deals an additional 25% of the total damage dealt by Crusader's Strike, Divine Storm, and Templar's Verdict as bonus divine damage.

Redemption (Su): A Paladin of 17th level or higher gains the ability to restore the dead to life. By casting this ability for ten consecutive rounds, the Paladin may resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as one year per class level. This ability can restore creatures whose bodies have been totally destroyed, provided that the Paladin can unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion.

Upon completion of this ability, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, with no loss of level (or Constitution, in the case of a 1st level character) or prepared spells.

You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. You can resurrect elementals and outsiders, but not constructs or undead creatures. You cannot resurrect a creature who has died of old age, or whose soul is unwilling to be resurrected.

Using Redemption consumes 64 mana.

Inquisition (Su): As a free action, a Paladin of 18th level or higher may consume all charges of holy power to increase divine damage dealt by 30%. This ability lasts for 1 round per charge of Holy Power consumed.

Holy Radiance (Su): As a swift action, a Paladin of 19th level or higher may begin to radiate shafts of golden light in all directions. At the beginning and end of each of the Paladin's turns, until the end of the second round in which this ability is activated, all allies within 20 feet are healed for an amount equal to his hit dice plus his Wisdom modifier.

Holy Radiance may be used once per minute.

Using Holy Radiance consumes 40 mana.

Guardian of Ancient Kings (Su): As a free action, a Paladon of 20th level may call upon a Guardian of Ancient Kings to bestow some measure of its ability upon him. While this ability is active, the Paladin is encased in a shell of translucent golden light, which shapes itself around his features, sculpting and perfecting them, granting him an aura of unearthly beauty and power.

The effect of Guardian of Ancient Kings varies based on which Specialization the Paladin chose to persue.

Holy Specialization - Ancient Healer: Whenever the Paladin uses a single-target healing ability, the Ancient Healer casts an exact copy of that ability on the same target. Whenever the Ancient Healer heals a target, all allies within 10 feet of that target are healed for 10% of the original heal.

The Ancient Healer persists for five rounds or until the Paladin uses five healing abilities.

Protection Specialization - Ancient Guardian: The shell surrounding the Paladin moves of its own accord, intercepting attacks, occasionally breaking away from the Paladin's form entirely to absorb a blow more effeciently. While the Ancient Guardian is active, the Paladin takes 50% less damage from all sources.

The Ancient Guardian persists for two rounds.

Retribution Specialization - Ancient Crusader: The shell surrounding the Paladin is absorbed slightly whenever he lands an attack, suffusing his body with divine strength. Whenever the Paladin lands an attack, he gains a +1 sacred bonus to strength for the duration of the Ancient Crusader, up to a maximum of +20 strength. When the Ancient Crusader departs, the Paladin releases his stored strength in a localized blast of pure divine energy, dealing half his hit dice as divine damage per point of strength gained by this ability, divided between all enemies within 20 feet. A successful Will save, DC (10+1/2 HD+Strength modifier [calculate prior to subtracting the Paladin's sacred bonus to strength]) halves this damage.

The Ancient Crusader persists for three rounds.

Guardian of Ancient Kings may be used twice per day, but no more than once per encounter.

Jarian · 02-13-2011, 05:36 AM

A note on "attack action" abilities:

Spoiler

Immobilized:

Spoiler

A note on percentages:

Spoiler

So, since PEACH is so commonly used, let's go with PEAR for this one. Please Examine and Reply, guys.

Before anyone cries "Omg NERF!", please consider that this is meant to be a class that can adventure with wizards and druids without crying itself to sleep at night. Also consider what Clerics can do .

Unrest · 02-13-2011, 07:03 AM

Mmmm only d8 HD? *scutters away with his undead rogue cape fluttering behind him*

Jarian · 02-13-2011, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unrest

Mmmm only d8 HD? *scutters away with his undead rogue cape fluttering behind him*

Protection Paladins have the equivalent of d10 HD, and a metric ton of damage reducing abilities. Holy and Retribution Paladins are not exactly renowned for being incredibly survivable.

Dead_Jester · 02-13-2011, 08:08 AM

This looks pretty good, although the mana cost for some abilities (Crusader Strike being the worst here) is too high for the amount of mana you get (100 points per day is nothing)

Also, with the current system, Meditation is useless, as the current mana regen is wis mod (which is nothing) per hour. That means that, with the most liberal interpretation (you take the mana regen for the hour and get half of that per round), you'd get half of your wisdom mod per round (which is pretty good), but if it refers to the amount you'd get per round, then you're getting 1/1200th of your wis mod per round, which is nothing.

As it is right now, the mana system is broken, and needs a rewrite. I'd recommend keeping the 100 (or reducing it to 50 + wis or int mod) and making it regenerate OOC at a rate or 5 + wis or 10. This makes everyone happy whilst still keeping Meditation useful for long battles.

Also, the retribution Spec is way too good for a 1 level dip. I mean, +20 % dmg (you need to specify if it's calculated before or after bonuses) is an immense increase, and if you don't want every 2hw user in the universe suddenly dipping paladin, you might want to change it.

Jarian · 02-13-2011, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dead_Jester

This looks pretty good, although the mana cost for some abilities (Crusader Strike being the worst here) is too high for the amount of mana you get (100 points per day is nothing)

The mana costs are the base percentage costs for each of the abilities. Assuming no mana gain, that's what each of the abilities would cost at a 100 mana pool. *shrug*

Was considering adding Wisdom to the mana pool, but I couldn't find a decent rate to add it without completely borking the system. Suggestions are welcome.

Quote:

Also, with the current system, Meditation is useless, as the current mana regen is wis mod (which is nothing) per hour. That means that, with the most liberal interpretation (you take the mana regen for the hour and get half of that per round), you'd get half of your wisdom mod per round (which is pretty good), but if it refers to the amount you'd get per round, then you're getting 1/1200th of your wis mod per round, which is nothing.

That's just an error in translation; it's meant to give you half of your hourly rate per round in combat, no other interpretation possible. Will fix.

Quote:

Also, the retribution Spec is way too good for a 1 level dip. I mean, +20 % dmg (you need to specify if it's calculated before or after bonuses) is an immense increase, and if you don't want every 2hw user in the universe suddenly dipping paladin, you might want to change it.

The problem with creating a class not designed to be multiclassed out of: you forget that people will multiclass anyway.

I'll try to find a solution for that.

Dead_Jester · 02-13-2011, 08:43 AM

Like I said in my first post, the mana system needs to regenerate much faster (at a rate of about 5+wis or 10 per round or minute ooc), because this class suffers from the 5 round work day (heck, you can't even keep your seals up all day, and each time you use one, you lose 15% of your daily mana pool). Holy paladins regenerate mana in combat at a rate that is 300 times faster than out of combat, which considering the way mana normally regenerates, is completely aberrant.

As written, the only way to play this class is to only use normal melee attacks (which isn't so bad, as they are pretty strong with the retribution spec) or spam Hammer of Justice all day long because it's a great CC spell that's dirt cheap.

Also, the mana cost is pretty wonky for some abilities (Hammer of Justice is a spammable SoL that is usable up to 4 times per round and only costs 3 points per cast, while exorcism is a bad blast spell that cost 30).

As for keeping abilities at the WoW percentage, remember that some abilities are worth more in a PnP turn-based system than in a RT MMO. Stuff like letting some abilities being attack actions isn't so bad in an MMO (even instant cast melee attacks have a global cooldown, which spells with a cast time ignore), but in a PnP rpg, being able to use an ability 4 times per round (especially if it doesn't require an attack roll) is an immense advantage over being able to use an ability once per round.

As such, the effectiveness (and the resulting mana cost) need to be balanced with their actual effect in-game, not their effect in WoW.

Jarian · 02-13-2011, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dead_Jester

As written, the only way to play this class is to only use normal melee attacks (which isn't so bad, as they are pretty strong with the retribution spec) or spam Hammer of Justice all day long because it's a great CC spell that's dirt cheap.

Holy Paladins regenerate a reasonable amount of mana per round in combat. Protection Paladins regenerate 2 x Wis mod mana every time they use Judgement. Retribution Paladins regenerate Wis mod worth of mana every time they use Judgement, due to their abundance of Holy Power abilities.

Did you overlook the last two abilities, or did you think they were just not worth mentioning?

Any Paladin regenerates 15 mana whenever they use Judgement with the Seal of Insight active, which is available from level 1.

Quote:

Also, the mana cost is pretty wonky for some abilities (Hammer of Justice is a spammable SoL that is usable up to 4 times per round and only costs 3 points per cast, while exorcism is a bad blast spell that cost 30).

Hammer of Justice was supposed to have a 30 second cooldown, and I have no idea how that got removed from the final version.

Exorcism is... Exorcism. Just like in WoW, it either sucks as a base spell, or become completely overpowered when you get it as a free cast as Holy or Ret. Basically, it's your "Well gosh, this sucks, I don't have a ranged weapon and that guy's on the cliff above me" attack, barring procs. *shrug*

Lord_Gareth · 02-13-2011, 08:56 AM

Honestly Jarian, you'd be best served if you allow WoW to inspire you instead of shackle you. Don't give the poor melee guy a crappy blast spell - you're just teasing him. Make it a decent blast spell or get rid of it.

Jarian · 02-13-2011, 08:58 AM

A ranged touch attack for 1d6 damage/level is pretty much par for blasting spells, actually. The only thing I can think of off hand that goes over that is a disintegrate at 2d6/CL. There's also the fact that it's divine damage, which is resisted by... next to nothing. I'd hardly call it crappy, given that you can essentially do it all day with the Seal of Insight active.

Edit: Cases in point, though admittedly not amazing examples.

Edit 2: Some Cleric "blasts", for reference.

Dead_Jester · 02-13-2011, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarian

Holy Paladins regenerate a reasonable amount of mana per round in combat. Protection Paladins regenerate 2 x Wis mod mana every time they use Judgement. Retribution Paladins regenerate Wis mod worth of mana every time they use Judgement, due to their abundance of Holy Power abilities.

Did you overlook the last two abilities, or did you think they were just not worth mentioning?

Any Paladin regenerates 15 mana whenever they use Judgement with the Seal of Insight active, which is available from level 1.

Lets consider that 36 (20+5+5+6) is the max wisdom score possible;
Judgement requires a Seal to use, and a Seal costs 14 mana to use. Retribution pallys would need 40 wisdom to regain any mana (which they can't normally get), Protection pallys need the more decent 26 wisdom to regain any. Seal of Insight is absolutely useless, as it regains 1 mana (although something could be said of spamming Seal of Insight and Judgement every second round...)

If you're going to keep to WoW style, you might as well keep the OOC mana regeneration. I think it would be simpler, and it would let this class be usefull all day long while still keeping the amount it can use in any 1 encounter decent.

Jarian · 02-13-2011, 06:13 PM

Seals now last until canceled, like Auras, rather than for one hour. Paladins still need to use Judgement to keep their mana up, and still can't use their most expensive abilities at will and expect to have a full pool every encounter. This is intentional. Mana is not meant to be Inspiration. However, the new duration of the Seals should alleviate many mana issues, while still requiring that the Paladin make a conscious choice of which Seal he has active at a given time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dead_Jester

Judgement requires a Seal to use, and a Seal costs 14 mana to use. Retribution pallys would need 40 wisdom to regain any mana (which they can't normally get), Protection pallys need the more decent 26 wisdom to regain any. Seal of Insight is absolutely useless, as it regains 1 mana (although something could be said of spamming Seal of Insight and Judgement every second round...

Based on what you say here, it's hard to understand whether you think using a Seal with Judgement cancels it, or you only expected a Paladin to use Judgement once per duration of a Seal. Regardless, this should be fixed now.

Cardea · 02-13-2011, 09:07 PM

Please do Warlock or Hunter next. I'm really loving these.

One question I do have, however. You have a way for them to recover Mana outside of resting; how come the Paladin can't increase his base mana pool past 100?

Jarian · 02-13-2011, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardea

Please do Warlock or Hunter next. I'm really loving these.

Thanks. I'm currently working on a Shaman, but Hunter may come after. We'll see how it goes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardea

One question I do have, however. You have a way for them to recover Mana outside of resting; how come the Paladin can't increase his base mana pool past 100?

I had intended to make Wisdom increase mana (actually originally I went with Intelligence, to model WoW, but that was quickly scrapped. Wisdom now equals Spirit and Intellect rolled into one for the class) but I couldn't find a decent means of doing it without trivializing the costs. Wis mod or even 1/2 Wis mod x Paladin level just makes the costs not matter at all after a while.

If anyone has suggestions on a way to make it work, I'm all ears.

Dead_Jester · 02-13-2011, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarian

Based on what you say here, it's hard to understand whether you think using a Seal with Judgement cancels it, or you only expected a Paladin to use Judgement once per duration of a Seal. Regardless, this should be fixed now.

No, what I'm saying here is that Judgement can't give you any mana (well, 1 mana...), or that you need a ridiculous amount of wisdom to even make the other methods of reganing mana worthwhile.

Jarian · 02-13-2011, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dead_Jester

No, what I'm saying here is that Judgement can't give you any mana (well, 1 mana...), or that you need a ridiculous amount of wisdom to even make the other methods of reganing mana worthwhile.

What?

Activating a Seal costs a certain amount of mana. That's the only time you pay its mana cost. There's nothing in the Seal or Judgement abilities that would imply otherwise, and I'm honestly confused as to how you came to that conclusion.

Dead_Jester · 02-13-2011, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarian

Activating a Seal costs a certain amount of mana. That's the only time you pay its mana cost. There's nothing in the Seal or Judgement abilities that would imply otherwise, and I'm honestly confused as to how you came to that conclusion.

Activating a Seal cost 14 mana, Judgement with Seal of Insight gives you 15 mana, for a total gain of +1 mana. The paladin spec abilities sort of give you some bonus mana, but they usually don't even make up for the cost of the Judgement (unless you have a minimum of +8 wis modifier or +15), and so are inefficient ways of regaining mana.

This leads to using Seal of Insight being the only way to regain a bit of mana, and even then, it's pretty hard to regain a usable amount of mana.

Jarian · 02-13-2011, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dead_Jester

Activating a Seal cost 14 mana, Judgement with Seal of Insight gives you 15 mana, for a total gain of +1 mana. The paladin spec abilities sort of give you some bonus mana, but they usually don't even make up for the cost of the Judgement (unless you have a minimum of +8 wis modifier or +15), and so are inefficient ways of regaining mana.

This leads to using Seal of Insight being the only way to regain a bit of mana, and even then, it's pretty hard to regain a usable amount of mana.

*shakes head*

We're talking in circles. Clearly one of us is misunderstanding the other.

Let's take an example. Paladin, 6th level, 14 Wisdom, Protection specialization.

Starts the day with 100 mana. Activates, oh, say, Seal of Insight. Mana drops to 86. Immediately enters an encounter.

First attack the Paladin makes is a Judgement. This triggers his Judgements of the Wise ability, causing him to regain his Wisdom modifier in mana at the start of each of his next two turns. Judgement has no cost to use. This also triggers his Seal of Insight, returning 15 mana. He now has 100/100 mana.

For his second attack, he, I don't know, uses Crusader Strike. It's not really relevant for the discussion. He now has 90/100 mana. Either way, his turn finished, he waits for his next turn to come around.

At the beginning of his next turn, he regains 2 mana (his Wisdom modifier), increasing his mana to 92. There is still no cost for using Judgement or activating his Seal. His Seal of Insight is still active.

---

Now, what am I misunderstanding as far as your argument goes, saying that Seal of Insight only restores 1 mana?

Drynwyn · 02-13-2011, 10:07 PM

Make Mana scale with level.

unosarta · 02-13-2011, 10:08 PM

Awesome version, Jarian. I can't wait to see your take on the Priest (my current main).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dead_Jester

Activating a Seal cost 14 mana, Judgement with Seal of Insight gives you 15 mana, for a total gain of +1 mana. The paladin spec abilities sort of give you some bonus mana, but they usually don't even make up for the cost of the Judgement (unless you have a minimum of +8 wis modifier or +15), and so are inefficient ways of regaining mana.

This leads to using Seal of Insight being the only way to regain a bit of mana, and even then, it's pretty hard to regain a usable amount of mana.

It doesn't appear you understand how this works.

Paladin: I use a swift action for Seal of Righteousness. My mana is at 86. I make a Judgement attack against an enemy within range. I gain 15 mana, putting me at 100. My turn ends.

*next turn*

Paladin: I use Consecration, costing 55 mana, putting me at 45 mana. I use Judgement as a ranged attack, and gain 15 mana back, putting me at 60 mana.

That is roughly how it goes, and also how it works in WoW currently. And the mana regeneration from Judgement of Ret and Prot in this class is actually pretty high, so the Paladin likely won't use their Judgement ability more than once every two or three turns, considering it doesn't do that much damage, and it takes an attack action, what amounts to a standard action.

Something I was wondering about, Jarian; when you say an attack action, can that action be used during a Full attack? For instance, could I Crusader Strike and Judgement at the same time during a full attack? Or Crusader Strike and do one melee attack? Can I Judgement more than once per full attack?

Jarian · 02-13-2011, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drynwyn

Make Mana scale with level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarian

I had intended to make Wisdom increase mana (actually originally I went with Intelligence, to model WoW, but that was quickly scrapped. Wisdom now equals Spirit and Intellect rolled into one for the class) but I couldn't find a decent means of doing it without trivializing the costs. Wis mod or even 1/2 Wis mod x Paladin level just makes the costs not matter at all after a while.

If anyone has suggestions on a way to make it work, I'm all ears.

I'm afraid a simple request isn't helpful enough for me to actually implement it. As noted, I've already looked into it, and I couldn't come up with a good way to do it.

Unless you meant increase both costs and pool, in which case that's just needlessly complicated.

Jarian · 02-13-2011, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unosarta

Something I was wondering about, Jarian; when you say an attack action, can that action be used during a Full attack? For instance, could I Crusader Strike and Judgement at the same time during a full attack? Or Crusader Strike and do one melee attack?

Yes to all of those.

Quote:

Can I Judgement more than once per full attack?

No, because Judgement can only be used every other round.

Edit: Oops, doublepost. Bad Jarian, bad!

unosarta · 02-13-2011, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarian

Yes to all of those.

Good. That certainly ups the power level a bit, and makes this class very interesting. How are you handling multiclassing? Can you multiclass Ret/Prot?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarian

No, because Judgement can only be used every other round.

Ah, okay, that makes sense.

Hawk7915 · 02-13-2011, 10:14 PM

Good thing I previewed and saved myself from getting Swordsage'd

. Looks like two other people have explained mana regen.

@ Jarian: Not nearly as much commentary here (after savaging the Death Knight; it was a labor of love I swear!). This is awesome and I can't wait for Shaman (one of the few classes in WoW that doesn't have an easy 3.5 counterpart). Excellent work

.

Jarian · 02-13-2011, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unosarta

Good. That certainly ups the power level a bit, and makes this class very interesting. How are you handling multiclassing? Can you multiclass Ret/Prot?

Nope. That would be the same as multiclassing a Fighter2/Fighter2 to get maximum bonus feats. You're still playing the Paladin class, regardless of your choice at first level.

Better example: Would you allow your player to play a multiclass Wizard (conjurer) and Wizard (evoker)? Regardless of the viability, it's basically doing the same thing as that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawk7915

@ Jarian: Not nearly as much commentary here (after savaging the Death Knight; it was a labor of love I swear!). This is awesome and I can't wait for Shaman (one of the few classes in WoW that doesn't have an easy 3.5 counterpart). Excellent work

.

Thank you.

unosarta · 02-13-2011, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarian

Nope. That would be the same as multiclassing a Fighter2/Fighter2 to get maximum bonus feats. You're still playing the Paladin class, regardless of your choice at first level.

Better example: Would you allow your player to play a multiclass Wizard (conjurer) and Wizard (evoker)? Regardless of the viability, it's basically doing the same thing as that.

So if you choose one specialization, you cannot ever be another? No talent respecs?

That does make sense, though. How do multiple classes interact with multiclassing? I would love to see a Paladin/Deathknight.

Jarian · 02-13-2011, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unosarta

So if you choose one specialization, you cannot ever be another? No talent respecs?

I'm afraid not.

In all seriousness, your DM could decide that switching specializations falls under class feature retraining, but... it's a pretty huge change.

Quote:

That does make sense, though. How do multiple classes interact with multiclassing? I would love to see a Paladin/Deathknight.

The same way any class works if you multiclass. You stop gaining the benefits of this class, and any ability that keys off of your Paladin level stops progressing.

Also, by default, a Paladin and Death Knight can't multiclass. Paladins are any Good, while Death Knights are any non-Good.

unosarta · 02-13-2011, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarian

The same way any class works if you multiclass. You stop gaining the benefits of this class, and any ability that keys off of your Paladin level stops progressing.

Also, by default, a Paladin and Death Knight can't multiclass. Paladins are any Good, while Death Knights are any non-Good.

Dang. There is hopefully a spell to get around that. Also, a Priest/Warlock definitely would work, since there are Shadow priests devoted to the shadow, and that means that I could have a healing warlock.

Are you planning on doing prestige classes?

Jarian · 02-13-2011, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unosarta

Are you planning on doing prestige classes?

At some point, maybe. For now I just want to cover the base classes. Going beyond that means making up entirely new abilities, rather than translating existing ones.

Hawk7915 · 02-14-2011, 01:04 AM

Thought: What if bonus mana was wisdom mod * 5? That'd prevent Paladins from ever realistically getting more than 75 bonus mana/day (which would start getting awfully excessive and trivializing a lot of the limitations of the class) while still allowing some way of beating the 100 mana cap. Ret Paladins could stack Wisdom to spend more time with better seals, and Holy Paladins could stack Wisdom to spend more time at a distance instead of having to get into melee and Judge-up their mana bar. Wisdom mod *3 might also be appropriate, and you could let the "full casters" (Warlock, Priest, Mage, Holy Paladin as part of the spec) get way more than that.