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Old 02-17-2011, 02:23 AM   Top  -  End  -  #1
jiriku
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Default [3.5] Knight + Paladin Remix: Knight-Paladin
KNIGHT-PALADIN


And much more am I sorrier for my good knights' loss than for the loss of my fair queen;
for queens I might have enough, but such a fellowship of good knights shall never be together in no company.

-- Sir Thomas Malory



The knight-paladin is a fierce mounted warrior, a stalwart protector of the weak and a powerful champion for his god or his principles. In battle he functions as the party tank, provoking monsters into attacking him directly or mystically drawing the injuries of his allies into himself. He also heals and protects his companions with his spells and his auras.

The knight-paladin replaces both the knight and paladin classes, and is intended to provide an option for a melee-oriented defender that matches the power level of the crusader but stays more true to the flavor and crunch of the earlier defender classes.

Designer's Notes:
Spoiler


Change Log:
Spoiler


GAME RULE INFORMATION

Knight-paladins have the following game statistics.

Abilities: Charisma enhances a knight-paladin's challenge, self-protective capabilities, and undead turning ability. Strength is important for a knight-paladin because of its role in combat. Several knight-paladin skills are based on Wisdom, and a Wisdom score of 16 or higher is required to get access to the most powerful knight-paladin spells. A Wisdom score of 11 or higher is required to cast any Knight-paladin spells at all.

Alignment: Knight-paladins are always lawful.

Designer's Notes:
Spoiler

HIT DIE: d12

LvlBase AttackFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSpecial-0--1--2--3--4--5--6-
1st+1+2+0+2Code of honor, knight's challenge (test of mettle), smite 1/day2– – – – – –
2nd+2+3+0+3Divine grace, turn undead30– – – – –
3rd+3+3+1+3Aura of courage, bulwark of defense31– – – – –
4th+4+4+1+4Armor mastery (medium), knight's challenge (call to battle), smite 2/day320– – – –
5th+5+4+1+4Special mount, spontaneous conversion (shield other)331– – – –
6th+6/+1+5+2+5Detect hostile intent, vigilant defender332– – – –
7th+7/+2+5+2+5Aura of menace, divine health3320– – –
8th+8/+3+6+2+6Knight's challenge (daunting challenge), smite 3/day3331– – –
9th+9/+4+6+3+6Armor mastery (heavy)3332– – –
10th+10/+5+7+3+7Courtly knowledge33320– –
11th+11/+6/+1+7+3+7Aura of protection33331– –
12th+12/+7/+2+8+4+8Knight's challenge (bond of loyalty), smite 4/day33332– –
13th+13/+8/+3+8+4+8Armor mastery (tower shield)333320–
14th+14/+9/+4+9+4+9Spontaneous conversion (glory of the martyr)433331–
15th+15/+10/+5+9+5+9Aura of warding443332–
16th+16/+11/+6/+1+10+5+10Knight's challenge (turn the tide), smite 5/day4443320
17th+17/+12/+7/+2+10+5+10Impetuous endurance4444331
18th+18/+13/+8/+3+11+6+11Mighty aura4444432
19th+19/+14/+9/+4+11+6+11Aura of retribution4444443
20th+20/+15/+10/+5+12+6+12Knight's challenge (loyal beyond death), smite 6/day4444444

CLASS SKILLS (4 + Int mod per level, x4 at 1st level)
A knight-paladin's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Jump (Str), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str).



A word of advice... the path to knighthood is paved with strength and nobility, not LSD and sideburns.
-- The Black Knight, Family Guy

CLASS FEATURES
All of the following are class features of the knight-paladin.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A knight-paladin is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light, medium, and heavy armor and shields (except tower shields). As he advances in level, he gains proficiency with tower shields and is able to move more freely while wearing medium and heavy armor.

Spells: A knight-paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the knight-paladin spell list (see below). A knight-paladin must choose and prepare his spells in advance.

Knight-paladin spellcasting:
Spoiler


Code of Honor: The knight-paladin must have and adhere to a code of honor that defines his expected behavior both in and out of combat. The knight’s code does not restrict his behavior when fighting creatures that are immune to his knight’s challenge (e.g. animals, most magical beasts, vermin, mindless undead or constructs, etc.). The player and DM should work together to craft an appropriate code that fits the campaign setting, the party, and the expected playstyle of the group. Good starting points for developing such a code include the paladin’s code (PHB 44 or UA 53-55), the knight’s code (PH2 27), and the samurai’s code (OA 22 or CW 10), or the kensai’s oath (CW 50).

Knight's Challenge (Ex): As a swift action, a knight-paladin can issue a knight's challenge. Targets of this ability must have an Intelligence of 5 or higher and have a language of some sort. You must have line of sight and line of effect to targets of this ability.

A knight-paladin gains a bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against targets of this ability, equal to +1, plus an additional +1 per four knight-paladin levels.

The effect of a knight's challenge lasts until the end of the encounter. A knight-paladin gains one use of Knight's Challenge per day for each knight-paladin class level he has.

A knight-paladin begins play knowing how to issue a test of mettle. At 4th level, and each additional four levels thereafter, he learns to issue a different type of challenge.
Test of Mettle: A knight-paladin can shout a challenge to all enemies within 100 feet, calling out for the mightiest among them to face him in combat. Opponents are forced to attack him with their ranged and melee attacks in preference to other opponents (save negates, Will DC 10 + ½ class level + Cha modifier). If the foe attacks by casting a spell or using a supernatural ability, he must target the knight-paladin or include him in the effect's area.
An opponent compelled to act in this manner is not thrown into a mindless rage and does not have to move to attack the knight-paladin in melee if doing so would provoke attacks of opportunity against him. In such a case, he can use ranged attacks against the knight-paladin or attack any opponents he threatens as normal. If anyone other than the knight-paladin attacks the target, the effect of the test of mettle ends for that target.
A creature can be targeted with Test of Mettle only once per day.
Call to Battle: A knight-paladin of 4th level or higher can shout a word of inspiration to a single target ally, granting the ally a second saving throw against any ongoing [fear] effects that allow a save. The ally gains a bonus on this second save equal to the knight-paladin's Charisma bonus.
Daunting Challenge: A knight-paladin of 8th level or higher can call out a challenge to all opponents within 100 feet, striking fear in their hearts. Opponents are shaken (save negates, Will DC 10 + ½ class level + Cha modifier).
A creature can be targeted with Daunting Challenge only once per day.
Bond of Loyalty: A knight-paladin of 12th level of higher can expend a use of knight's challenge as a swift action to grant an ally within 100 feet an additional saving throw against an ongoing [mind-affecting] effect.
Turn the Tide: A knight-paladin of 16th level or higher may shout a rallying cry to draw his team together just when all seems darkest. Each ally within 100 feet may choose to gain any one of the following benefits:
  • An immediate attempt to stabilize.
  • Remove the fatigued condition, or reduce the exhausted condition to fatigued.
  • An immediate second saving throw against any one ongoing [charm] or [compulsion] effect that allows a saving throw. The ally gains a bonus on this second save equal to the knight-paladin's Charisma bonus.
  • A morale bonus equal to the knight-paladin's Charisma bonus, applied to any one attack roll, ability check, skill check, or saving throw made before the beginning of the knight-paladin's next turn.
Loyal Beyond Death: A knight-paladin of 20th level or higher can expend a use of knight's challenge as an immediate action to remain alive, conscious, and unhindered by any effect that would kill him, including hit point damage, Constitution damage or drain, [death] effects, and other spells. He simply ignores the effects of hit point damage he has taken (although he still takes the damage), and other effects that would kill him are deferred until the duration of Loyal Beyond Death lapses. At the expiration of the effect, all such effects are applied to him immediately, and he is once again subject to death from hit point and ability damage.
Loyal Beyond Death lasts until the beginning of the knight-paladin's turn. However, when the effect would elapse, he may spend an additional use of knight's challenge as a swift action to extend the duration until the beginning of his next turn. He may do this for as many rounds as he wishes, so long as he has uses of knight's challenge remaining.
Designer's Notes:
Spoiler


Smite (Su): Once per day, a knight-paladin may attempt a smite with one normal melee attack. He adds his Charisma bonus to his attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per knight-paladin level. The paladin may smite anyone whom he regards as an opponent.

At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the knight-paladin may smite one additional time per day.

Spoiler


Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a knight-paladin gains a bonus equal to his Charisma bonus on all saving throws.

Turn Undead (Su): When a knight-paladin reaches 2nd level, he gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. He turns undead as a cleric of his level.

Designer's Note:
Spoiler


Aura (Su): Starting at 3rd level, a knight-paladin is surrounded by an aura of divine power out to a range of 10 feet. When first acquired, this aura possesses the courage quality (described below). The knight-paladin gains the ability to infuse his aura with other attributes for every 4 additional levels he gains. Adding or removing an aura quality requires a swift action, and the aura can contain as many qualities as the knight-paladin is able to produce. The knight-paladin gains all the benefits of his own aura, except as noted below.
Courage: The knight-paladin becomes immune to fear, and allies within the knight-paladin's aura gain a +4 bonus on saving throws against fear.
Designer's Note:
Spoiler

Menace: Beginning at 7th level, foes within the knight-paladin's aura take a -2 penalty to attacks, AC, and saves for 24 hours or until they successfully hit the knight-paladin (save negates, Will DC 10 + ½ class level + Charisma modifier). A creature that has resisted or broken this effect cannot be affected by the same knight-paladin's aura of menace again for 24 hours.
Designer's Note:
Spoiler

Protection: Beginning at 11th level, allies within the knight-paladin's aura gain the benefit of a magic circle against evil.
Warding: Beginning at 15th level, allies within the knight-paladin's aura gain the benefit of a lesser globe of invulnerability.
Designer's Notes:
Spoiler

Retribution: Beginning at 19th level, foes within the knight-paladin's aura deal only half damage when attacking the knight-paladin's allies who are also within the aura, and the attacker takes the remainder. The attacker can negate this reflected damage with a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ class level + Charisma modifier), but the damage he inflicts is still halved. A creature that has resisted this effect need not save again versus this knight-paladin's aura of retribution for 24 hours.
Bulwark of Defense (Ex): When he reaches 3rd level, an opponent that begins its turn in the the knight-paladin's threatened area treats all squares that he threatens as difficult terrain. His strict vigilance and active defensive maneuvers force his opponents to move with care. Creatures must pay double movement cost to move through squares of difficult terrain, and cannot run, charge, or make 5-foot steps through difficult terrain.

Armor Mastery (Ex): Starting at 4th level, the knight-paladin is able to wear his armor as a second skin and ignore the standard speed reduction for wearing medium armor. Starting at 9th level, he ignores the speed reduction imposed by heavy armor as well. At 13th level, he gains proficiency with the tower shield if he did not already have it, and he may ignore the -2 penalty to attack rolls associated with using a tower shield.

Special Mount (Su): Upon reaching 6th level, a knight-paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve him in his crusades (this animal gains bonuses according to the table shown in the Paladin's Mount sidebar on page 45 of the Player's Handbook). This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium character) or a riding dog (for a Small character), although it can be another creature with a CR of no more than 2 if the player and DM agree that a different creature would be more appropriate.

Once per day, as a full-round action, the knight-paladin may magically call his mount from the celestial realms where it resides. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the knight-paladin and remains for 2 hours per knight-paladin level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the knight-paladin may release a particular mount from service (if it has grown too old to join his crusade, for instance). Each time the mount is called, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The mount always appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed (including barding, saddle, saddlebags, and the like). Calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect.

Should the knight-paladin's mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The knight-paladin may not summon another mount for thirty days or until he gains a knight-paladin level, whichever comes first, even if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the knight-paladin takes a -1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.

Designer's Notes:
Spoiler


Spontaneous Conversion (Su): The knight-paladin is first and foremost a defender of his allies, and relies upon shield other and glory of the martyr to defend his allies against harm from threats he cannot block with his skill at arms. A knight-paladin of 5th level or higher can spontaneously convert a prepared knight-paladin spell of 2nd level or higher to cast shield other instead. This works just like a cleric or druid's ability to spontaneously convert spells. At 14th level, the knight-paladin can spontaneously convert a prepared knight-paladin spell of 5th level or higher to cast glory of the martyr instead.

Spoiler


Detect Hostile Intent (Sp): A knight-paladin of 6th level or higher can use detect hostile intent at will, as the psionic power.

Spoiler


Vigilant Defender (Ex): Starting at 6th level, a knight-paladin stands his ground against all enemies, warding the spot where he makes his stand to prevent foes from slipping past and attacking those he protects. If an opponent attempts to use the Tumble skill to move through his threatened area or his space without provoking attacks of opportunity, the Tumble check DC to avoid his attacks of opportunity increases by an amount equal to his class level.

Divine Health (Su): At 7th level, a knight-paladin gains immunity to all diseases (including supernatural and magical diseases).

Courtly Knowledge (Ex): At 10th level, the knight-paladin has either become a mighty lord in his own right, or has devoted himself to the study of the politics and rulers to better serve his own lord. Either way, he develops a well-deserved reputation as an honorable mediator and keen adviser. He gains a competence bonus on all Diplomacy, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) and Sense Motive checks equal to half his class level.

Designer's Notes:
Spoiler


Impetuous Endurance (Ex): At 17th level, the knight-paladin's fighting spirit enables him to push his body beyond the normal limits of endurance. He no longer automatically fails saving throws on a roll of 1. He might still fail the save if his result fails to equal or beat the saving throw DC.

Mighty Aura (Su): At 18th level, the radius of the knight-paladin's divine aura doubles to 20 feet, and the bonuses provided by his aura of courage and aura of protection double.
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Last edited by jiriku : 09-23-2011 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 02-17-2011, 02:26 AM   Top  -  End  -  #2
jiriku
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin Options
Feats for knight-paladins:


Spoiler



New spells for knight-paladins:

Spoiler



Alternate Class Features for Knight-Paladins:

Spoiler
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Last edited by jiriku : 09-05-2011 at 11:16 PM.
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Old 02-17-2011, 05:02 AM   Top  -  End  -  #3
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
I haven't read the class thoroughly yet, and I'll have a shot at reviewing it completely once I have, but one thing stands out already: it's still very MAD.
A knight-paladin still needs Str, Con, Wis and Cha, just like a standard issue paladin. That is one of its biggest weaknesses.
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Old 02-17-2011, 12:26 PM   Top  -  End  -  #4
Roderick_BR
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
Well, you did it. I've been planning a knight-paladin class for a long time, but you did it first.

At a quick glance, you seem to get a lot of nice stuff. Increasing the flexibilities to some features (like smite) turned out very nice.
I agree that he could use Charisma to cast, like some fixes do, wouldn't take too long to fix. But I saw you gave him a 1st-6th level progression. It's hard to build a spell list that doesn't make him just a "mini-cleric" with full bab. The different aura effects seems good too, in place of the silly weekly remove disease.
And Paladins always deserved good hit die, armor, fort, and will saves, in my opinion.

I saw you removed the alignment limit from smite. It does make it better, but it's still a daily feature. I was going to work on a version that could be used by encounter, but giving only the Cha-to-attack against non-evil targers. We'll need to playtest yours to see if it works better.

For alignment stuff, I'm still working on some ideas for paladins that people may find interesting.

All in all, it looks like a nice option for a divine powered tank. Good defenses, ability to hold off enemies, minor buffs for allies, and an average ability to deal damage/weaken enemies.

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Old 02-17-2011, 12:50 PM   Top  -  End  -  #5
Mulletmanalive
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
My big comment is actually the spell list. The length is a little eeerrrrr [wobbles hand horizontally] as lists this long tend to look like they have filler or role plugs.

My big comment is to say "please, please, please design some actual 5th and 6th level spells with an actual paladin flavour! Only Aspect of the Deity, Greater has a very holy warrior type feel as opposed to 'I haz utility'."

I have this issue with every single spellcasting enhancement fix but you're probably dedicated enough to fix it.
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Old 02-17-2011, 02:54 PM   Top  -  End  -  #6
Draz74
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
Quote:
Originally Posted by Insanealien View Post
I haven't read the class thoroughly yet, and I'll have a shot at reviewing it completely once I have, but one thing stands out already: it's still very MAD.
A knight-paladin still needs Str, Con, Wis and Cha, just like a standard issue paladin. That is one of its biggest weaknesses.
I vote against changing this. The best-designed classes are MAD and, even so, still manage to be powerful.

On the other hand, I don't like that this class is still powered by per-day mechanics, including the bookkeeping hassle that is prepared Vancian casting.
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Old 02-17-2011, 04:40 PM   Top  -  End  -  #7
Telonius
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
Quote:
Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
Retribution: Beginning at 19th level, foes within the knight-paladin's aura deal only half damage when attacking the knight-paladin's allies who are also within the aura, and the attacker takes the remainder (save negates, Fortitude DC 10 + ½ class level + Charisma modifier). A creature that has resisted or this effect cannot be affected by the same knight-paladin's aura of retribution again for 24 hours.
Minor point of clarification - what part of this ability does the save negate? If the save is successful, does the ally take full damage, or does the enemy just not take half the damage?

I'd also be a bit cautious about Courtly Knowledge. Consider what this will mean to a 20th-level character who maxes out diplomacy: +43 to all Diplomacy checks, without even taking Charisma bonuses into account. It's an easy +6 for synergy, so without even breaking a sweat you're looking at a +49. Auto-success on turning a Hostile into a Helpful.
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:03 AM   Top  -  End  -  #8
Insanealien
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
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Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
I vote against changing this. The best-designed classes are MAD and, even so, still manage to be powerful.

On the other hand, I don't like that this class is still powered by per-day mechanics, including the bookkeeping hassle that is prepared Vancian casting.
Yes, MAD isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, I think that requiring 4 high attributes to play as the class is intended to be played is too many. Maybe at 1st level, you could be allowed the choice of Charisma or Wisdom as your key attribute for spellcasting and class features.
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:05 AM   Top  -  End  -  #9
jiriku
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
Spells, right. I can do that.

Perhaps some compulsion spells to force enemies to attack, and some spells that convert damage taken into temporary hit points. Maybe a couple of immediate-action or dischargeable defenses to spice up combat at higher levels. Stuff wot makes him better at gettin' roughed up, y'know?

While the concern about the Diplomacy skill is well-founded, the root cause of the issue is the Diplomacy rules. I'll add a note encouraging the use of Burlew's alternate rules.

I'd like to think that the knight-paladin rewards a balanced approach to stat distribution, especially under point-buy rules where you get more bang for your buck when most stats are 14 or lower. It doesn't really want to have a particularly high stat in any one place.
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Tier 1 casters breaking your game? Remix your magic with Philosopher's Stone, or try these flavorful mid-tier classes instead: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!

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Old 02-18-2011, 04:23 AM   Top  -  End  -  #10
Fizban
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
I like it. The class accomplishes it's goals well. Good mix of passive, active, and spellcasting abilities. In particular, giving them the Aura of Menace and Protective Aura abilities of Archons and Angels is a great touch. While they don't protect from the biggest and baddest of spells, it's enough to stop all mind control and squash metamagic'd orbs, leaving only the top tier save or lose spells with even a chance of working. And then those have to get through your Divine Grace. One thing I would do is give the Magic Circle effect before the Lesser Globe effect, around 7th maybe. Don't know where you could move the Aura of Menace too, unfortunately. Currently you have it gaining the ability to reroll mind affecting saves as late as 12th level, but then he goes and gets immunity from his aura at 15th. Magic Circle's an all day buff, so it should really show up just a few levels after the spell does. This would mean you could make up a new challenge ability for 12th level as well.

I agree that MAD could be a bit of the problem, but I also like the sentiment of it being a hallmark of awesome classes. A focused Knight-Paladin could work with his smiting, aura, and challenges on charisma, or his aura and spellcasting on wisdom. With good rolls, high point buy, or some extra gear, he could do both. I didn't take an in-depth look at the spell list so I can't comment on the selection, but I do like the idea of making some decent paladin only spells. Even the existing Pal4 spells are pretty lame, since they're "only 4th level spells."
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Old 02-19-2011, 12:57 AM   Top  -  End  -  #11
jiriku
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
Aura of retribution has been clarified. I was originally intending that a save would negate the entire effect, but as it's already quite limited in scope (both attacker and target must be within 20 ft of the knight-paladin, and it defends only against hit point damage) I decided the more powerful interpretation was a better fit for a 19th-level ability.

Moved magic circle ahead of lesser globe. Modified the 12th-level challenge to be usable on allies at range.

And spells! Seven new knight-paladin spells, added in the second post. I included spell level assignments for both knight-paladins and regular paladins, in case someone would like to borrow the spells but not the class.
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Old 02-19-2011, 05:11 AM   Top  -  End  -  #12
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
Two things:

1) So when a Level 8 Knight-Paladin uses Test of Mettle or Daunting Challenge he gets +3 to attack and damage vs all enemies within 100ft for the duration of the encounter?

2) Why oh why must you use the 3.5 version of Smite when it's been proven time and time again to be so bad? Please use the Pathfinder version instead. I beg you.
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Old 02-19-2011, 05:28 AM   Top  -  End  -  #13
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
Personally I'd say let then Smite 1/5 rounds at first level, reducing the wait time every 5HD, so they can do it 1/4 rounds at 5HD and every round at 20HD. So they don't have to decide whether to not smite this evil critter in case a worse critter comes along later.
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Old 02-19-2011, 07:06 AM   Top  -  End  -  #14
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
Man, do I ever like this class. It actually seems fairly balanced and fun to play.
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Old 02-19-2011, 01:26 PM   Top  -  End  -  #15
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
@ Ziegander: You're correct about knight's challenge.


While a per-round smite mechanic would work fine, I'm thinking that anybody who's a fan of unlimited resources and per-round recovery mechanics is already playing a crusader. The knight-paladin strives to maintain the authentic look-and-feel of its predecessors, and that includes a reliance on prepared spellcasting and per-day mechanics. It's all about the authenticity!
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Old 02-19-2011, 04:20 PM   Top  -  End  -  #16
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@ Ziegander: You're correct about knight's challenge.
Not that this is overpowered, but with the number of uses the Knight-Paladin has per day and the number of enemies it's applying to it might as well just say, "a Knight-Paladin gets a +3 divine bonus to attack and damage rolls." And at that point it's more unnecessary than anything.

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While a per-round smite mechanic would work fine, I'm thinking that anybody who's a fan of unlimited resources and per-round recovery mechanics is already playing a crusader. The knight-paladin strives to maintain the authentic look-and-feel of its predecessors, and that includes a reliance on prepared spellcasting and per-day mechanics. It's all about the authenticity!
But, as a per day ability, 3.5's version of Smite is among the worst class features in the game. In comparison with Rage, Smite's usefulness is laughable. Note, I don't like 85% of Pathfinder material, but the version of Smite they use for their Paladin is one of the few things I do like. That is actually worth being limited to a once per day use. Adding +5 to hit and +20 to damage for one attack is not.
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Old 02-19-2011, 04:32 PM   Top  -  End  -  #17
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
The whole point is that by using the knights abilities to gain small buffs it improves every attack. Then you save your smites to attack the bosses, not to just hammer on some one every couple of turns...

I believe thats the point the class designer is trying to make.
Keepin it classy.

And I like the class, got to find a way to play it. =)
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Old 02-19-2011, 06:22 PM   Top  -  End  -  #18
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The whole point is that by using the knights abilities to gain small buffs it improves every attack. Then you save your smites to attack the bosses, not to just hammer on some one every couple of turns...

I believe thats the point the class designer is trying to make.
Keepin it classy.
And that would be all well and good if 3.5 Smite was actually worthwhile. But it does so very little it's pretty pitiful. At 20th level you could blow 5 Smites against a "boss" in a full attack, and presuming they all hit, you deal +100 damage. Congratulations, you just almost rivaled a Warblade's maneuver that he's been using since 17th level. And the bosses at this level have 500hp with lots and lots of DR and/or Fast Healing and/or Regeneration.

Even if he doesn't like the Pathfinder Smite he should buff the Knight-Paladin's Smite in some way. If he wants to keep it applying only to a single attack at a time he should still make it bigger, badder, and more than just damage.

If Smite dealt 1d6 additional divine damage per level (Will halves), automatically overcame DR, and carried a Knockback, knock prone effect, as well as scaling debuffs, that might be worth a mere 6/day by 20th level.

Something like:

Smite (Su): A Knight-Paladin is filled with a glorious, divine wrath, reserved only for those select few that have earned his perfect enmity. Anytime a Knight-Paladin attacks a foe he may declare that attack to be a Smite. If he does he gets a bonus to the attack roll equal to his Charisma modifier or 1/2 his class level, whichever is higher, and the attack deals additional damage equal to 1d6 per level. This additional damage is divine in nature and therefor not subject to DR or resistance of any kind.

Enemies who do not oppose one or more of the Knight-Paladin's alignments are entitled to a Will save (DC 10+1/2Knight-Paladin level+Knight-Paladin's Cha modifier) to halve this additional damage.

Further, the Knight-Paladin ignores all concealment his target may have less than total concealment and ignores any Damage Reduction his target may have.

Finally, any creature struck by a Knight-Paladin's Smite attack must succeed at a Fort save (DC 10+1/2Knight-Paladin level+Knight-Paladin's Cha modifier) or be sickened for 1d4 rounds.

A 1st level Knight-Paladin is entitled to one Smite attack per day, but he gains one additional use of this ability per day at 4th level and every four levels thereafter.

Improved Smite (Su): At 6th level, when a Knight-Paladin Smites a foe, and that foe fails its Fort save, at the Knight-Paladin's option that foe may be Blown Away 5ft per class level +10 additional feet per point of the Knight-Paladin's Cha modifier and knocked prone.

Greater Smite (Su): At 11th level, when a Knight-Paladin Smite a foe, and that foe fails its Fort save it is Nauseated for 1d4 rounds rather than sickened.

Supreme Smite (Su): At 17th level, when a Knight-Paladin Smites a foe, and that foe fails its Fort save it is Stunned for 1 round, then Nauseated for 1d4 rounds, and subject to a Bestow Curse effect of the Knight-Paladin's choice for the rest of the encounter.

So, NOW, if the KP full attacks with haste at 20th level, he's able to come at the Balor with up to 100d6 divine damage (average 350, enough to potentially 1 round the Balor if three or four of the attacks hit) and the Balor has to make multiple Fort saves against Stun/Nauseating/Bestow Curse and if the KP wants he can blow that Balor the hell away from him with divine power.

THAT's worth limiting to 6/day.
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Old 02-19-2011, 07:10 PM   Top  -  End  -  #19
Elfstone
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
True. But I only stated my interpritations of the creators intent.

I like it, maybe he will use it.
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Old 02-19-2011, 07:34 PM   Top  -  End  -  #20
Burnheart
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
Looked over the class it looks good 2 mistakes i saw:

DEVOTED INQUISITOR [General]
Your knight-paladin and daring outlaw levels stack for determining your sneak attack progression and smite progression.


DEVOTED TRACKER [General]
Your knight-paladin and swift hunter levels stack when determining your smite progression and your wild empathy bonus.

I assume you mean Rogue and ranger?
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Old 02-19-2011, 07:50 PM   Top  -  End  -  #21
jiriku
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
Burnheart: A cookie for you, you're the first person to comment on that. The swift hunter is posted in my signature as the revised ranger. The daring outlaw is a rogue/swashbuckler fusion class that I have written, but not yet posted. It will make its way onto the board presently. For groups that elect not to use my daring outlaw and swift hunter classes, substitute rogue and ranger.

Ziegander: Incorporating the bonus into the knight's challenge makes it conditional: the target must have Int 5 or greater, and the knight-paladin must have line of sight. This makes the knight-paladin more effective against intelligent, straightforward opponents, and less effective against opponents who are non-intelligent or able to evade detection. Which fits his ethos. I love it when crunch and fluff come together.

Your smite proposal is pretty slick. I actually gave the knight-paladin fairly milk-toast offensive capabilities on purpose, to reinforce his role as a defender, rather than a striker. However, I'm currently working on an offensively focused analogue to the knight-paladin tentatively titled the holy warrior, which would rely much more heavily on smites. Don't be surprised if you see your smite mechanics pop up in my holy warrior.

Elfstone: Yes, exactly.
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Old 02-19-2011, 08:14 PM   Top  -  End  -  #22
Ziegander
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
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Ziegander: Incorporating the bonus into the knight's challenge makes it conditional: the target must have Int 5 or greater, and the knight-paladin must have line of sight. This makes the knight-paladin more effective against intelligent, straightforward opponents, and less effective against opponents who are non-intelligent or able to evade detection. Which fits his ethos. I love it when crunch and fluff come together.
That's true. I did forget about that part.

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Your smite proposal is pretty slick. I actually gave the knight-paladin fairly milk-toast offensive capabilities on purpose, to reinforce his role as a defender, rather than a striker. However, I'm currently working on an offensively focused analogue to the knight-paladin tentatively titled the holy warrior, which would rely much more heavily on smites. Don't be surprised if you see your smite mechanics pop up in my holy warrior.
Ah, well in that case I'd advise you just remove Smite from the Knight-Paladin table altogether, it's not really going to be missed between the improvements to Knight's Challenge and the 6th level spells.
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Old 02-19-2011, 08:16 PM   Top  -  End  -  #23
Elfstone
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
No, because then it will be like "Your a pally... but you cant smite???"
Keep it, and never use it. Just for tradition and fluff purposes.
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Old 02-19-2011, 08:34 PM   Top  -  End  -  #24
Ziegander
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No, because then it will be like "Your a pally... but you cant smite???"
Keep it, and never use it. Just for tradition and fluff purposes.
Of course. *rollseyes*

I'd rather change the name to Knight-Protector and remove Smite than have a redundant, almost-useless class feature on the table, but that's just me.
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Old 02-19-2011, 08:49 PM   Top  -  End  -  #25
Elfstone
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Of course. *rollseyes*

I'd rather change the name to Knight-Protector and remove Smite than have a redundant, almost-useless class feature on the table, but that's just me.
xD but there is already a knigh protector PrC by wizards (it fails, except vs melee damage, but oh well)
So the smite stays.

Keeping it classy =)
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Old 02-19-2011, 09:06 PM   Top  -  End  -  #26
Burnheart
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
Ok thats not a mistake, then i assume that the feats swift hunter and daring outlaw were inspirations for your classes?
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Old 02-19-2011, 09:06 PM   Top  -  End  -  #27
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
Smite is like your appendix, or the command-line prompt in Windows 7. We keep these things around to remind us of the way things used to be in elder days.

@ Burnheart: You assume correctly. I name my classes as directly as possible after their source of inspiration. Partly so that people will know what's in the box just by reading the label, and partly because I'm really not creating new classes, just remixing old ones.
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Old 02-20-2011, 12:14 AM   Top  -  End  -  #28
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight-Paladin base class
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The whole point is that by using the knights abilities to gain small buffs it improves every attack. Then you save your smites to attack the bosses, not to just hammer on some one every couple of turns...

I believe thats the point the class designer is trying to make.
Keepin it classy.

And I like the class, got to find a way to play it. =)
Makes sense, but smite, as is, is still weak if it should be saved as a boss-battle kind of special attack, even with the alignment removed.

So... I'm not a fan of PF's smite evil (feels just like a divine version of rage), but I guess it could give a player a choice between a per-encounter 3.5 smite evil, or a per-day PF smite evil. Being able to either deal a few harder smacks every few rounds, or the ability to lock on a targer a few times a day would be cool.

For extra book keeping, you could do the 3.5 smite evil (say, call it Divine Strike) per encounter, and when needed do the PF smite evil (need a good name), reducing the number of smites usable for that day. Like, you have 2 emites. You can divine strike twice every encounter. In a particular fight, you use the "holy rage" smite once. For the rest of the day, you can only do 1 divine strike per day. If you use it for another "holy rage", you remain without smites until the next day.
Just a thought exercise, but something to consider.
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Old 09-05-2011, 08:58 PM   Top  -  End  -  #29
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight + Paladin Remix: Knight-Paladin
May I ask for an epic progression?

Furthermore, I don't see Mettle. Aren't things like that supposed to stand in a defender's list?
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Old 09-05-2011, 11:13 PM   Top  -  End  -  #30
jiriku
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Default Re: [3.5] Knight + Paladin Remix: Knight-Paladin
I've never played epic, and don't feel qualified to attempt an epic progression. Perhaps someone from the community who has more experience can suggest an epic knight-paladin progression?

Mettle isn't in there mostly because neither the knight nor the paladin has it, but it certainly fits the theme. I'll add an ACF for gaining Mettle in place of Divine Health.
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