Keychain of Creation 6: Now You're Playing With Elder Exalted!

[Sanguine]

Originally Posted by Morty

Out of curiosity and on an unrelated note - just how different was 1E Exalted from 2E? I thought it was essentially the same game and the same setting with somewhat different rules, but some stuff in this thread like Autochthonians being "stupid villains" suggests otherwise. Or am I misreading it?

From my understanding from reading peoples posts on the subject. Back in First Edition there were two published adventure scenarios of the Autochthonians invading Creation. One the Locust Crusade, in the Time of Tumult book and the very first mention of Alchemicals, was in fact actually very good. The other the Locust War, in the Exalted: The Autochtonians, portrayed them as stupid Captain Planet villains and the pawns of the Deathlords besides. Also apparently a single Autochthonian factory could kill the entire Western ocean down to a mile under the surface within a year. This was largely reviled; especially by one of the main men behind Second Edition Alchemicals Holden Shearer. Now having never read either of these adventures I can't say for sure how accurate this is.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Yeah, I got them mixed up (been a while since I read about it). The Locust Crusade was okay, the Locust War turned everyone into the dumbest people and completely ignored every single bit of logic and reason in both the setting and the real world.

There's Blacktog, where the fans extrapolated it's growth rate and found it would completely cover Creation in a matter of months. There's an expositive bit where the Perfect opens up talks with the Autochthonians by throwing his scepter at them. There's the bit where the Kukla is so damn good that anything less then most of the entire Exalted host might as well not even bother. There's the part where the Sidereals spend the entire scenario just twiddling their thumbs. There's the part where the Autochthonians beat people in naval battles.

tl;dr, everyone is horribly, horribly OOC, many stupid, setting-breaking things happen, and an idiot ball the size of a million Daystars gets dropped onto the setting.

[Tavar]

If FAFL was going to do anything to the seal, it'd be to unlock it, at least in my opinion. There's just so much loot there, ripe for the taking.

[Qaera]

How does FaFL know about the loot, though?

[Green Bean]

Originally Posted by AThousandWords

How does FaFL know about the loot, though?

They call Autochthon the Great Maker. Anyone who knows anything about him would know that he's got stuff that the entire Exalted host at the peak of the First Age didn't have.

[Qaera]

So they would also know he makes stuff from his being?

[Mr.Bookworm]

Originally Posted by Green Bean

They call Autochthon the Great Maker. Anyone who knows anything about him would know that he's got stuff that the entire Exalted host at the peak of the First Age didn't have.

Not really. Autochthon is undoubtedly the one being Solar craftsmen never surpassed, but there were only a few things he made that they couldn't have reproduced.

Not to mention, that's Autochthon, not the guys inside of him. Though even a Shogunate-level society would make some stuff that people in Creation would find interesting.

Originally Posted by AThousandWords

So they would also know he makes stuff from his being?

Hm? What do you mean? The Alchemicals? The Eye?

Also, it appears that Faffles is already fighting the Autochthonians, so they've breached the Seal at the very least.

[Green Bean]

Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm

Not really. Autochthon is undoubtedly the one being Solar craftsmen never surpassed, but there were only a few things he made that they couldn't have reproduced.

Not to mention, that's Autochthon, not the guys inside of him. Though even a Shogunate-level society would make some stuff that people in Creation would find interesting.

Well, as far as Creation knows, Autobot never succumbed to robo-cancer. So, you have the greatest craftsman of all time, who has thousands of years without interruption to build stuff. That'd be worth cracking open the Seal to see what's inside. And while most of his stuff could have been duplicated, in present-day Creation countries have gone to war over "mere" 5 dot artifacts.

And that's not even considering the juiciest prize of all - Alchemical Demiurges. If FaFL gets his hands on the prerequisite five component implementers of the Alchemical formula, he can start mass producing Celestial level exalts; the only other things he'd need are magical materials and souls, two things a Deathlord has in abundance.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Originally Posted by Green Bean

Well, as far as Creation knows, Autobot never succumbed to robo-cancer. So, you have the greatest craftsman of all time, who has thousands of years without interruption to build stuff. That'd be worth cracking open the Seal to see what's inside. And while most of his stuff could have been duplicated, in present-day Creation countries have gone to war over "mere" 5 dot artifacts.

Faffles is an ex-First Age Solar who's building a Titan-replica in his backyard. Not to mention, it's kind of implied that the Seal is already cracked, because he has forces fighting the Autochthonians.

And that's not even considering the juiciest prize of all - Alchemical Demiurges. If FaFL gets his hands on the prerequisite five component implementers of the Alchemical formula, he can start mass producing Celestial level exalts; the only other things he'd need are magical materials and souls, two things a Deathlord has in abundance.

That's pretty explicitly not how it works. Getting your hands on five demiurges is spelled out as being only the first step you would need to take to get your hands on the formula, because the demiurges don't actually know it. They just channel the power of Autochthon (the other thing you need).

[The Bushranger]

What if you had five deimurges and Nova, though?

[Tavar]

Not quite the same thing.

Though, regarding the seal; it might still only allow being to pierce it from one direction. Sure, if FAFL managed to capture the city that houses the portals it would be fine, but that would require unimaginable amounts of stupidity on the part of the Autochonians. Getting the keys and piercing the seal from his side sounds much more doable.

Oh, there's also the sweet bonus of the combined powers of a being equal in power to the Incarna.

[Sanguine]

Originally Posted by Green Bean

Well, as far as Creation knows, Autobot never succumbed to robo-cancer. So, you have the greatest craftsman of all time, who has thousands of years without interruption to build stuff. That'd be worth cracking open the Seal to see what's inside. And while most of his stuff could have been duplicated, in present-day Creation countries have gone to war over "mere" 5 dot artifacts.

And that's not even considering the juiciest prize of all - Alchemical Demiurges. If FaFL gets his hands on the prerequisite five component implementers of the Alchemical formula, he can start mass producing Celestial level exalts; the only other things he'd need are magical materials and souls, two things a Deathlord has in abundance.

Couple things. Nations in present day Creation will go to war over lower rated Artifacts then 5; for instance a Sky Mantis Tower would be enough to convince many to go to war if they had the requisite hearthstone or could easily get it.

He wouldn't just need magical materials and souls. He also needs the reagents for the catalyzing broth as well as the special clays that make up an Alchemical's body.

The souls Fafl has are seperated from their Pos and thus useless for the process of Alchemical Exaltation. Not to mention they would first need to be placed in Soul Gems.

Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm

That's pretty explicitly not how it works. Getting your hands on five demiurges is spelled out as being only the first step you would need to take to get your hands on the formula, because the demiurges don't actually know it. They just channel the power of Autochthon (the other thing you need).

While he couldn't make Alchemicals himself he could get the Demiurges to make them for him. This is explicitly stated as a possibility.

Originally Posted by Tavar

Not quite the same thing.

Though, regarding the seal; it might still only allow being to pierce it from one direction. Sure, if FAFL managed to capture the city that houses the portals it would be fine, but that would require unimaginable amounts of stupidity on the part of the Autochonians. Getting the keys and piercing the seal from his side sounds much more doable.

Oh, there's also the sweet bonus of the combined powers of a being equal in power to the Incarna.

Using the keys to pierce the Seal from his side sounds like something he would do. As for the Keys making you as powerful as an Incarna where is this said?

[Mr.Bookworm]

Originally Posted by Tavar

Not quite the same thing.

Though, regarding the seal; it might still only allow being to pierce it from one direction. Sure, if FAFL managed to capture the city that houses the portals it would be fine, but that would require unimaginable amounts of stupidity on the part of the Autochonians. Getting the keys and piercing the seal from his side sounds much more doable.

If the Seal is broken, it's broken. Faffles could just build his own gate now.

Oh, there's also the sweet bonus of the combined powers of a being equal in power to the Incarna.

Hm? The Keys may possess powers in-line with those of the Incarnae (though that's kind of a meaningless statement), but they don't make you personally more powerful, anymore then a mortal holding the Eye is.

Originally Posted by Sanguine

While he couldn't make Alchemicals himself he could get the Demiurges to make them for him. This is explicitly stated as a possibility.

Really? Don't remember that line.

[Sanguine]

Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm

Really? Don't remember that line.

Here you go.

Originally Posted by Alchemicals pg 82

Ultimately a Twilight who wants to make Alchemicals will have to force mortals to do so, probably at sword point.

Really if you think about it if Demiurges couldn't make Alchemicals at the request of non-mortals Adamant Castes wouldn't exist as they are made at the whim of the Divine Ministers.

[Green Bean]

Originally Posted by Sanguine

He wouldn't just need magical materials and souls. He also needs the reagents for the catalyzing broth as well as the special clays that make up an Alchemical's body.

The souls Fafl has are seperated from their Pos and thus useless for the process of Alchemical Exaltation. Not to mention they would first need to be placed in Soul Gems.

The reagents are available in Creation, though, and for purchase even. Souls are trickier, but the soulgems at least are only Artifact 2.

In any case, those are just details, and not even ones that FaFL necessarily knows. After all, just because the book states the specific ingredients doesn't mean it's common knowledge. What he would know, though, is that the people living on Autobot can build Exalts, and learning how they do it would be beyond priceless.

[Tavar]

Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm

If the Seal is broken, it's broken. Faffles could just build his own gate now.

I'm pretty sure that one option is for piercing the seal, not breaking it. People on the inside can make portals that go through it, but people on the outside cannot.

Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm

Hm? The Keys may possess powers in-line with those of the Incarnae (though that's kind of a meaningless statement), but they don't make you personally more powerful, anymore then a mortal holding the Eye is.

Originally Posted by Sanguine

Using the keys to pierce the Seal from his side sounds like something he would do. As for the Keys making you as powerful as an Incarna where is this said?

If you have all of the keys gathered and attuned(though they can be attuned to different people), then you can use all of the powers of the God of Locks. I thought he was on the same level as an Incarna, but on review it isn't explicit. There's also a post on a different forum that goes into a bit more detail on what these entail. Essentially, anything that could be described as open, close, lock, unlock are valid. I believe closing someone's mind was explicitly stated as an option.

[Lix Lorn]

The ability to open minds could single-handedly fix the setting.

[Weimann]

Originally Posted by Tavar

Essentially, anything that could be described as open, close, lock, unlock are valid. I believe closing someone's mind was explicitly stated as an option.

Really, it looks like the best person to use the Keys would be a linguist.

Personally, I'd not make the definition quite so arbitrary, but given that this is a comic and not a game, I suppose it works.

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

The ability to open minds could single-handedly fix the setting.

Meh, all that requires is a sharp object and the First Melee Excellency.

[horngeek]

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

The ability to open minds could single-handedly fix the setting.

SIDEREAL HAXX GO!

[Lix Lorn]

Originally Posted by Weimann

Meh, all that requires is a sharp object and the First Melee Excellency.

Originally Posted by horngeek

SIDEREAL HAXX GO!

(massive eyerolling prana)

[Sanguine]

Please note opening someones mind is almost definitely Mental Influence and thus Perfect Mental Defenses like Elusive Dream Defense or Duck Fate would prevent them from having their minds opened.

[lord_khaine]

Please note opening someones mind is almost definitely Mental Influence and thus Perfect Mental Defenses like Elusive Dream Defense or Duck Fate would prevent them from having their minds opened.

As i recall, 5 keys could overcome that as well.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Originally Posted by lord_khaine

As i recall, 5 keys could overcome that as well.

Unless Jukashi completely breaks the setting in half in a variety of ways for the story (which is fine, if used right), nooooooooooooooo.

Also, while there are a couple of ways to get around UFIO, saying "This breaks perfect defenses" isn't one of them.

[Yuki Akuma]

Actually yes the Keys can bypass perfect defenses if you have all 5.

No, this wouldn't work in a game.

Protip: this is not a game. It's a story. Jukashi does not care one wit about game balance.

See also: Secret, Ten and Misho in the same circle.

[Tavar]

Or the fact that someone(Nova) is making proto-exaltations. That shouldn't be anywhere near possible, if this was a game. But since it's a story, it doesn't matter as much.

[Sanguine]

Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma

Actually yes the Keys can bypass perfect defenses if you have all 5.

No, this wouldn't work in a game.

Protip: this is not a game. It's a story. Jukashi does not care one wit about game balance.

See also: Secret, Ten and Misho in the same circle.

Originally Posted by Tavar

Or the fact that someone(Nova) is making proto-exaltations. That shouldn't be anywhere near possible, if this was a game. But since it's a story, it doesn't matter as much.

I have all kinds of problems with something overcoming Perfect Defenses on a story level, not a game balance one, however it's nine in the morning right now and I still haven't gotten any sleep so I can't articulate them coherently. I'll bring it back up later. I don't however have a problem with the proto-exaltations. I also would totally allow someone to make their own Exalts in a game, whether or not it would be a good idea is another matter entirely.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma

Actually yes the Keys can bypass perfect defenses if you have all 5.

No, this wouldn't work in a game.

Protip: this is not a game. It's a story. Jukashi does not care one wit about game balance.

Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm

(which is fine, if used right)

Yes, I know.

The problem is doing so without punching a giant hole through the entire setting.

Not to mention that he has statted out the Keys, and the comic does pretty explicitly run on Exalted mechanics. So they do need to at least mechanically work.

See also: Secret, Ten and Misho in the same circle.

This actually wouldn't work that bad in a game, if Secret's player didn't mind being behind the rest. They all have different areas of expertise, and Ten has ridiculous amounts of XP.

[Yuki Akuma]

The five Keys together are the only thing capable of punching through Perfect Defenses.

Until just recently, there weren't even five Keys. And no one has ever gathered even four of them.

No one has ever broken a Perfect Defense before.

See where this is going?

Nothing about the setting has been broken.

(Also the problem with Misho, Secret and Ten all being in the same circle is the fact that Misho is a Essence 5-ish Solar, Secret is an Essence 2-ish Abyssal, and Ten is an elder Terrestrial. The whole point is that Ten has far too much XP. )

[Tavar]

Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm

Not to mention that he has statted out the Keys, and the comic does pretty explicitly run on Exalted mechanics. So they do need to at least mechanically work.

Not quite. Yeah, it's based on the rules, but the author has said that it's only loosely based on them. Most recently in this post.

Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma

The five Keys together are the only thing capable of punching through Perfect Defenses.

Until just recently, there weren't even five Keys. And no one has ever gathered even four of them.

No one has ever broken a Perfect Defense before.

See where this is going?

Nothing about the setting has been broken.

Actually, they do have a point; the keys simply give access the the powers the god of Locks had. So, yeah, that would be a kink in the setting.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma

The five Keys together are the only thing capable of punching through Perfect Defenses.

Until just recently, there weren't even five Keys. And no one has ever gathered even four of them.

No one has ever broken a Perfect Defense before.

See where this is going?

Nothing about the setting has been broken.

The Keys give you the power of the God of Locks, ergo, the God of Locks could break perfects. The God of Locks was a loyalist who worked for the Primordials.

Unless Jukashi has posted an explanation for this, the setting is broken, and this needs to be fixed.

I also have a problem with the God of Locks being that powerful, but that's just me bitching.

(Also the problem with Misho, Secret and Ten all being in the same circle is the fact that Misho is a Essence 5-ish Solar, Secret is an Essence 2-ish Abyssal, and Ten is an elder Terrestrial. The whole point is that Ten has far too much XP. )

I'd say Misho is Essence 4, but yes.