THEREFORE, Elan sacrificed a number of innocent lives solely for the sake of dramatic potential.
FURTHER, unlike the charge of "weakening the fabric of the universe", Elan was fully aware that those children were within the dungeon. He should have known that they had no ready or obvious means of escape, yet took no steps to ensure their safety or, indeed, thought about them at all before blowing up the entire dungeon .
I must further note that Durkon was a good-aligned wizard, and that many of the rooms in the castle had been left alone by Xykon . Given the presence of the good-aligned Celia in this dungeon, it's possible that there were other good-aligned creatures in the dungeon. Elan most likely killed them all by pressing that rune. He was in the room when Celia gave that speech, should have known that, but went ahead and pushed the button anyway.
THEREFORE, I charge Elan with Criminally negligent manslaughter . It isn't murder because he didn't intend to kill those creatures -- he hasn't got a malicious bone in his body. But he still was negligent and reckless, and that negligence and recklessness resulted in the deaths of innocent children. So criminally negligent manslaughter (goblinslaughter, technically) applies.
OBJECTION: Those children were only faking it! At least one of them was really evil!
that's the kind of justification the Sapphire Guard would use for THEIR actions
. So it doesn't matter. They were children, alignment unimportant. Elan failed to consider the possible danger to their life and limb when he blew up the castle.
OBJECTION: By the power of plot, those kids all got away!
REBUTTAL: So we reduce the charge from manslaughter to Child endangerment and Reckless endangerment . Even if the power of plot magically saves the kids, Elan still had a responsibility either to ensure their safety or to demonstrate the pressing need to destroy the dungeon despite the innocent deaths it would probably cause. He did neither. Thus in this one aspect he is worse than his father, who may be a murderer and a tyrant but we've never seen him kill a child.
THEREFORE, I conclude that Elan is a menace to any and all creatures who cross his path , who get between him and dramatic potential. Since he's not malicious, I do not recommend the death sentence or prison. I do , however, recommend his confinement in some institute for the criminally insane until he can demonstrate that he has some clue how his actions harm others.
So the Chaotic Moron did something chaotic and moronic with unforeseen yet possibly terrible consequences. Give me a second, I have the New York Times on the phone.
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Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama
Then you'd be George R. R. Martin, I guess, but with a slightly better update schedule.
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Originally Posted by The Giant
It's rare that a thread reaches the proper conclusion in the second post. When it does, everyone else should stop posting on it.
Interesting thought. I guess you are right. Elan is a danger to others. If, for example, he hadn't been there when Captain Amun-Zora attacked Tarquin, Tarquin may be dead by now, which would make the country a better place, even if only slightly.
(One could argue that the PCs need Tarquin to tell them where Girard is, but there's the chance someone else would have told them, or maybe Tarquin is only bluffing)
Also, if Haley weren't more clever than Elan, Elan would either have caused Haley's and his death, or the unnecessary death or lots of guards.
Elan should not be allowed to go anywhere without a legal guardian.
I propose we dismiss the case on account of the defendant being a fictional character from a webcomic.
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Originally Posted by Krellen
Remember, Evil isn't "selfish". It's Evil. "Look out for number one" is a Neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two.
Elan's dramatic senses informed him that the children and everyone else were out of the dungeons, picking mushrooms in a nearby forest. As such it was okay for him and the rest of the heroes to make a dramatic, explosive escape out of the dungeon.
There were good people on the Death Star, too, but they all managed to escape on various shuttles and escape pods right before Luke fired his torpedoes. It all makes perfect sense.
Alternatively, Elan's mother was abused by his father a bit too much, which resulted in frustration and anger which she channeled into Elan by beating him senseless whenever she got drunk off her own merchandise in the tavern.
This unhappy childhood left Elan bitter. When he saw the goblin children, he saw that their lives we're generally speaking pretty okay. From that point onward he vowed to find a way to ruin their lives in secret without being attacked by the rest of the order. In comes the self-destruct button and Elan's plan finally became crystal.
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Good point indeed.
Please won't somebody think of the children and hang him?
Your kid could be next
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Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneenibble
What shall I say to thee, rakkoon, thou cruel,
Ingrateful, savage and inhuman creature,
That knewst the very bottom of my soul,
That almost mightst have coined me into gold
Wouldst thou have practiced on me for thy use?
Interesting thought. I guess you are right. Elan is a danger to others. If, for example, he hadn't been there when Captain Amun-Zora attacked Tarquin, Tarquin may be dead by now, which would make the country a better place, even if only slightly.
(One could argue that the PCs need Tarquin to tell them where Girard is, but there's the chance someone else would have told them, or maybe Tarquin is only bluffing)
Also, if Haley weren't more clever than Elan, Elan would either have caused Haley's and his death, or the unnecessary death or lots of guards.
Elan should not be allowed to go anywhere without a legal guardian.
The solution is clear. Tarkin must join the order.
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Originally Posted by AvatarZero
I like the "hobo" in there.
"Hey, you just got 10000gp! You going to buy a fully staffed mansion or something?"
"Nah, I'll upgrade my +2 sword to a +3 sword and sleep in my cloak."
Non est salvatori salvator, neque defensori dominus, nec pater nec mater, nihil supernum.
Torumekian knight Avatar by Licoot.
Note to self: Never get involved in an ethics thread again...Especially if I'm defending the empire.
I always thought Elan just pressed the rune because Roy ordered him to earlier. Also, it was shiny and looked important and he didn't realize it was a self-destruct rune until AFTER he pressed it.
The only thing he did solely for dramatic potential was when he asked Roy to wait with him until the very last microsecond to escape the 'splosion.
I always thought Elan just pressed the rune because Roy ordered him to earlier. Also, it was shiny and looked important and he didn't realize it was a self-destruct rune until AFTER he pressed it.
The only thing he did solely for dramatic potential was when he asked Roy to wait with him until the very last microsecond to escape the 'splosion.
1) Elan saw and recognized it as a self-destruct rune.
2) Roy didnt' see it.
3) Elan went and pressed it, presumably because it's just what you do when the villain dies. I mean, why ELSE would he press it?
4) When Roy was made aware of it, he was absolutely shocked -- as was the rest of the order, though for different reasons. NO ONE wanted Elan to press that rune except Elan himself. And Elan never did give a convincing explanation for why he did what he did. Dramatic instincts, perhaps.
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Please won't somebody think of the children and hang him?
Your kid could be next
FOR THE SAKE OF THE CHILDREN!
Well, he's not really an *evil* guy, he just needs adult supervision. So I wouldn't hang him. We don't punish children for the horrible mistakes they make, but we don't let them wander around unattended, either.
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Elan's dramatic senses informed him that the children and everyone else were out of the dungeons, picking mushrooms in a nearby forest. As such it was okay for him and the rest of the heroes to make a dramatic, explosive escape out of the dungeon.
We know that's at least partly not true. The flumphs suffered injury from the explosion and had to beat feet -- tentacles? -- to get out in time. So I think a charge of "reckless endangerment" could be made with respect to the flumphs, at least.
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Alternatively, Elan's mother was abused by his father a bit too much, which resulted in frustration and anger which she channeled into Elan by beating him senseless whenever she got drunk off her own merchandise in the tavern.
This unhappy childhood left Elan bitter. When he saw the goblin children, he saw that their lives we're generally speaking pretty okay. From that point onward he vowed to find a way to ruin their lives in secret without being attacked by the rest of the order. In comes the self-destruct button and Elan's plan finally became crystal.
Objection! Speculation. We have no evidence to substantiate these claims.
Besides ... Elan? Bitter? ELAN??? Since when? Where? Whut? Elan as broody anti-hero? Am I reading a different comic from everyone else?
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I propose we dismiss the case on account of the defendant being a fictional character from a webcomic.
But if we did THAT, then we'd have to do real work and jobs and stuff. And who wants that?
Well, he's not really an *evil* guy, he just needs adult supervision. So I wouldn't hang him. We don't punish children for the horrible mistakes they make, but we don't let them wander around unattended, either.
Shackles it is then.
And an adult supervisor. Perhaps a halfling because they are so jolly.
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Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneenibble
What shall I say to thee, rakkoon, thou cruel,
Ingrateful, savage and inhuman creature,
That knewst the very bottom of my soul,
That almost mightst have coined me into gold
Wouldst thou have practiced on me for thy use?
We know that's at least partly not true. The flumphs suffered injury from the explosion and had to beat feet -- tentacles? -- to get out in time. So I think a charge of "reckless endangerment" could be made with respect to the flumphs, at least.
First of all, the flumphs weren't injured in the explosion. They had already been injured by falling dwarfs. They were injured again by falling humans. The explosion per se did not hurt them.
Second, they obviously left by a different door than the OOTS. We can reasonably presume that there were emergency exits all over the dungeon.
Third, we know that the medusa in the bathroom queue survived.
It's therefore highly probable that the goblin children also escaped. And were freed from Xykon's influence too.
that's the kind of justification the Sapphire Guard would use for THEIR actions
. So it doesn't matter. They were children, alignment unimportant. Elan failed to consider the possible danger to their life and limb when he blew up the castle.
Killing evil children is no more evil than killing evil adults. That applies to both Elan and the Start of Darkness situation, which I agree are parallel.
First of all, the flumphs weren't injured in the explosion. They had already been injured by falling dwarfs. They were injured again by falling humans. The explosion per se did not hurt them.
The falling humans were debris from the explosion. So yes, they were injured by the explosion. :) It's like saying a person wasn't killed by a bomb but rather by the shards thrown about by the bomb's explosion.
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It's therefore highly probable that the goblin children also escaped. And were freed from Xykon's influence too.
Given that big KA-BOOM, I think it's fair to assume anyone inside that dungeon is now dead unless proven otherwise.
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Third, we know that the medusa in the bathroom queue survived.
Erm ... we do? I looked at that second strip, and I see *A* medusa. How do you know it's the same one as the one DurUkon's mansion?
And yes, I got "Durkon" and "DorUkon" confused. Oops.
Why does it matter that some of the goblins were children? The defendant should have the criminally negligent manslaughter of all the still-living goblins in the Dungeon of Dorukan added to his list of charges. They surrendered, after all.
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Originally Posted by Anarion
And remember, whoever captures the fox and brings it under their control first gains ownership and accompanying property rights over the wild beast.
Wow, Elan might actually be responsible for the loss of a lot more innocent lives than Belkar. Take that, moralists!
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Originally Posted by Comet
There were good people on the Death Star, too, but they all managed to escape on various shuttles and escape pods right before Luke fired his torpedoes. It all makes perfect sense.
All those innocent contractors hired to do a job were killed- casualties of a war they had nothing to do with. All right, look-you're a roofer, and some juicy government contract comes your way; you got the wife and kids and the two-story in suburbia-this is a government contract, which means all sorts of benefits. All of a sudden these left-wing militants blast you with lasers and wipe out everyone within a three-mile radius. You didn't ask for that. You have no personal politics. You're just trying to scrape out a living.
Elan works on the power of plot. Since the unimportant goblins weren't shown being destroyed, they weren't destroyed, they simply ceased to exist when the story stopped mentioning them.
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Elan works on the power of plot. Since the unimportant goblins weren't shown being destroyed, they weren't destroyed, they simply ceased to exist when the story stopped mentioning them.
Redcloak specifically stated they were all wiped out, so they didn't cease to exist.
Erm ... we do? I looked at that second strip, and I see *A* medusa. How do you know it's the same one as the one DurUkon's mansion?
Because they look exactly the same.
I'm pretty sure they are meant to be the same person. The Giant clearly copied his earlier design. If he intended them to be different characters, he could have given her different clothes, for instance.
I know he said something about how many vatiations on a stick figure are there? But with only two medusas, he could certainly show variations between them.
Um... no. It even says in the strip you've linked that they're not children. But even if they were, why are their deaths any worse than any of the other goblins the Order killed during the crawl? Because these goblins are very slightly younger than the others? Mmmkay.
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Originally Posted by pendell
Well, he's not really an *evil* guy, he just needs adult supervision. So I wouldn't hang him. We don't punish children for the horrible mistakes they make, but we don't let them wander around unattended, either.
Perhaps there's some big, strong, smart Lawful Good guy we can put in charge of him, in that case.
And yeah, what Ron Miel said. There's every chance Dorukan had emergency exits all over the place, otherwise it was pretty negligent of him to have such a rune in the first place.
As his lawyer, I plead him not guilty because of mental defect.
Of course, he needs someone supervising over him.
So, basically, I agree with the op. Elan is a danger. Just the idea of someone with the brain of a child and the power of a level 14+ adventurer (unoptimized maybe, but still level 14+) is already fearsome enough.
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Humble paesant honored of being ruthlessly (and sthylyshly) crushed under Tarquin's steel boot
This may not be strictly canon, but in the adventure game version the rules require you to remove all of the monsters from play once Zykon is defeated, because they sensed that the dungeon is about to self destruct and leave.
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"Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized."
— Terry Pratchett
Killing evil children is no more evil than killing evil adults.
It's no less evil either.
But the morality of a child is not easily determined, as they typically lack the capacity for true malice. Whether or not you personally believe this to be true, it is true in OotS ("We generally don't consider childhood escapades") and that is what matters where the comic is concerned.
__________________ ""Jeez, this dress! i look like a dominatrix"" (self-loathing): ""Actually , you look like a sorceress or something"" ""Hey, no need to get cruel""
Um... no. It even says in the strip you've linked that they're not children. But even if they were, why are their deaths any worse than any of the other goblins the Order killed during the crawl? Because these goblins are very slightly younger than the others? Mmmkay.
The adults are working for Xykon, and are a legitimate enemy. (Even if they were conscripted.)
The children haven't done any evil yet. They have the potential at least to grow up as good people, like right-eye.
The adults are working for Xykon, and are a legitimate enemy. (Even if they were conscripted.)
The children haven't done any evil yet. They have the potential at least to grow up as good people, like right-eye.
a) They're not children, and b) yes, they had that chance, but they chose to turn on the Order for no reason other than suddenly deciding being Good was a "phase". At that point they went from being allies of the Order to being a legitimate enemy themselves.
Of all the Good characters that we know were in the dungeon when Elan touched the rune, 100% survived. Everyone that we know for sure died in the dungeon was either a legitimate threat to the Order or else they were killed by the Linear Guild or Team Evil. I don't see the problem here.
(We don't even know what happened to the goblin teenagers, anyway, but we do at least know they were deliberately working in Xykon's favour.)
Last edited by Nimrod's Son : 03-04-2011 at 01:15 PM.
There were good people on the Death Star, too, but they all managed to escape on various shuttles and escape pods right before Luke fired his torpedoes.
I think the novel about the people on the death star says otherwise
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