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D&D 4e The forum for conversations specifically related to Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition rules and procedures, including 4e Essentials.

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Old 05-06-2013, 12:01 PM   Top  -  End  -  #1
Raazan
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Default Big Party Blues

I am running a 4e game, and I am considering adding an additional character, bumping them up to six characters. I can see one problemwith this, however. Solos. I know that solos are broken, but that is not the issue here. I have already read a variety of articles on the subject, including the angry gms articles. but even if I follow his advice, the solos will be too weak to challenge the party. What can I do to bump solos up for a six person party?
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:03 PM   Top  -  End  -  #2
Surrealistik
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Default Re: Big Party Blues

Just increase their damage output and total HP by an equal level standard's worth.

Keep in mind that solos normally should be dealing damage each round roughly equal to 5 standards of its level.

Alternately you can also have encounters with solos feature additional map hazards/monsters.
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Last edited by Surrealistik : 05-06-2013 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:29 PM   Top  -  End  -  #3
Hal
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Default Re: Big Party Blues

Without knowing what you've already read about integrating solo monsters into the game:
  1. Include other monsters and/or terrain features with the Solo.
  2. Allow the Solo monster to act more than once in the initiative order. This might require fiddling with the monster's damage, but it will alter the dynamic of the fight.
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Old 05-06-2013, 06:13 PM   Top  -  End  -  #4
Raazan
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Default Re: Big Party Blues

I have read the dm's guide and the angry gm's comments on fixing boss fights. the terrain features sound good, as does increasing its damage and hit points. I am, however, trying to avaid resorting to "add more monsters" because I think it takes away the majesty of fightin, say, a dragon if he has an extra buddy standing around.
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:04 PM   Top  -  End  -  #5
LimeSkeleton
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Default Re: Big Party Blues

I'd say that you should probably spend extra time making sure that the battle-map is tactically suited to the solo. (I.e. giving a dragon places to fly where melee characters have a difficult time reaching it, or using terrain that requires checks to traverse for the party but not for the solo).

Make sure you avoid trapping the monster in a corner or another similar small place, as your players will quickly the pound the living crap out of it if it is in a bad position.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:30 PM   Top  -  End  -  #6
Raazan
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Default Re: Big Party Blues

Right now, the party consists of: 1 Paladin, 1 Sorceror, 1 Archer Ranger, 1 Shaman, and 1 Seeker (using a longbow). I don't think putting the dragon on a ledge will keep him from dying quickly, but the terrain comment is sounding like hazards again. I'll look into the hazards section of the book.
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Old 05-07-2013, 12:46 AM   Top  -  End  -  #7
Wymmerdann
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Default Re: Big Party Blues

Depending on the majesty of this particular Dragon, you could have it summon an ally, rather than just having a hired flunky. Personally it always makes a dragon seem far more intimidating if it's revealed to have arcane powers. An elemental tied to its breath type would be pretty cool, and it could balance out the fight a bit (I'd imagine an Earth elemental soldier type, but if the dragon is a soldier or brute, maybe an air or fire skirmisher?)

Alternatively, consider terrain that limits ranged characters: if they want line of sight to make their attacks, force them to bunch up at the entrance to crevasses so your dragon can breath or burst them.

Mundane traps set by loyal flunkies seems a bit gimicky for the majesty of a dragon fight to be honest (draconic home alone anyone?) but natural hazards, or the Dragon taking advantage of terrain (collapsing pillars on the part with its massive bulk) could serve well in the alternative.
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Old 05-07-2013, 05:56 AM   Top  -  End  -  #8
Yakk
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Default Re: Big Party Blues

Dragons can always have traps in their lair, which can distract and damage the party. Or arcane traps. Or you could go with the "Dragon as spellcaster" and have it summon a critter.

Another idea is to give the Dragon multiple turns per round. A MM3 dragon that gets 2 rounds per turn is pretty scary.
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Old 05-07-2013, 11:41 PM   Top  -  End  -  #9
Excession
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Default Re: Big Party Blues

Yeah, just add more enemies IMO. I tend to consider a solo balanced against four PCs rather than five to begin with. An extra elite, two normals, or a massive swarm of minions takes it to six. Nothing says "panic" like having eight minion-artillery kobolds join the fight from multiple side tunnels a round after you engage the dragon. Or perhaps an elite brute elemental dropping in on your own party's squishy artillery. Make the adds something that can't just be ignored; make the party split their focus. Solos are fun fun anyway if the party can't just unleash on them.
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Old 05-13-2013, 08:07 AM   Top  -  End  -  #10
GnomeFighter
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Default Re: Big Party Blues

If you want to keep the "single threat" idea of the dragon but add in more monsters, how about a swarm of some sort? The fight disturbs rats/bats/insects/spiders or some such that had been happily living in the dragons layer living off any dropped scraps untill the PCs came along and disturbed them. A round or two in they swarm out to attack the healer or anyone else squishy. They may not be a threat but they will have to be delt with taking focus off the dragon.

Swarms can be fun as they can be hard to kill, especially if they are attacking someone as you realy want to AOE them. They can come out of holes in the ground or the like so can appear anywhere.
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Old 05-17-2013, 07:43 PM   Top  -  End  -  #11
Raazan
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Default Re: Big Party Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Excession View Post
Yeah, just add more enemies IMO. I tend to consider a solo balanced against four PCs rather than five to begin with.
Yes, I know that solos are considered weak, and I have read the angry GM's articles on the subject, but even if I put those changes into effect, the enemy won't be balanced for 6 players. 5, not six. I think giving the solo an extra standard action per round and extra hitpoints.
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Old 05-18-2013, 03:18 AM   Top  -  End  -  #12
Excession
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Default Re: Big Party Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raazan View Post
Yes, I know that solos are considered weak, and I have read the angry GM's articles on the subject, but even if I put those changes into effect, the enemy won't be balanced for 6 players. 5, not six. I think giving the solo an extra standard action per round and extra hitpoints.
If you use the solos from Monster Vault and maybe even more so Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale they're not really weak at all. Partly it's that my party just has two optimised strikes and an Artificer, so their damage per round is high.

Most of the MV solos already get multiple actions or attacks, counters to hard control, and very high damage output. Adding more damage to them solos may just lead to your defender getting reamed. Bigger parties don't magically mean your defender has more HP or armour, although they should be able to specialise more that might not happen. By adding other enemies you can avoid putting all of that damage in one place. Alternatively, a single solo gets spam controlled, and the extra standard action does nothing. Multiple enemies are harder to control, and force the party to split their focus.
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