Homebrew DesignRoll up your sleeves and get working: there's lots of homebrewin' to be done! Post your custom creation for critiques or review those of your peers.
For the player that wants to play D&D and be a monster, there's often a bitter pill to swallow. Maybe you're expected to deal with a kludgy level adjustment? Or perhaps the monster class they've already put out there has less-than-full HD per level? Or maybe there's just no LA or monster class option for that obscure monster you're so keen on, and you're forced to throw something together and beg your DM for its acceptance. Whatever the case, you're inevitably imbalanced one way or another. The session ends and people will often find themselves thinking things would have worked more smoothly if that monster hadn't been there to muck up the works.
No more!
In this thread, you will be able to play as any monster you want by entering these monster classes as though they were regular classes. Huge stat bonuses and screwy HD have been done away with, monsters with abilities that would throw campaigns into disarray (24/7 petrifying gaze! Woo!) have been rebalanced and made suitable for play. Monsters have been tweaked for your playing enjoyment.
If you love these monster classes, like so many do, there are two ways you can help out. You can critique or you can submit new monster classes.
The nebulous goal of this thread is to create a playable monster class for every monster in official material. Is that doable? Maybe not, but it's a good boundary to work within. For people wanting to work on monsters that aren't from official WotC material, there is a spin-off project, our homebrew edition. This spin-off project's main purpose is to make monster classes for PEACH'd homebrew monsters. Make sure to check them out!
First Time Here?
Spoiler
In the second post is a list of monster classes that have, for the most part, been thoroughly critiqued and balanced by several individuals each. If you see anything that you find questionable, please PM either the creator or post in the thread with your observations, and we will be happy to help. After all, we wouldn't be posting these monster classes here if we just wanted to use them ourselves!
One caveat, though: due to different build guidelines, one should always note what thread and by what poster the monster came from. If it is from Improved Monster Classes or Improved Monster Classes II, or by a banned poster, it is likely of questionable balance and playability. Improved Monster Classes III and IV were much improved, though, and for the most part should be fine, and anything from any of the Community Based Monster Classes comes with our full support.
Beyond that, it is strongly encouraged that you read the FAQ, as we do things here a little bit differently than most other homebrew projects.
For those who would like to contribute, see 'So You Want to Make a Monster Class'.
General FAQ
Spoiler
Q) What monsters am I allowed to make into a monster class? A) We encourage Homebrewers to build any monster as a playable character class. We prefer that Homebrewers build Monster Classes for monsters from published material that have not already been submitted. Before starting a new monster class, check the 'called' list (where people have called dibs on a particular monster or indicated they have started such a monster already) and the finished/unfinished monster lists. New homebrewers are encouraged to pick low-CR monsters (3-8), and not to attempt to tackle epic tier (20+ level) classes from the outset. Monsters from homebrew monsters should go in our homebrew section.
Q) Help! I'm taking a 1 or 2 level monster class and can't tell if it's BAB 1/2 or 3/4! (For the purposes of fractional BAB). A) Unless otherwise noted, an undead has 1/2 BAB, while all other classes/templates have 3/4 BAB.
Q) When I increase in size does my strength increase and my dexterity decrease? If so, by how much? A) Size increases, or decreases, do not alter ability scores in this project.
Q) What's the Caster Level for the SLAs? A) Unless otherwise specified, the Caster level for any SLAs is equal to your total HD.
Q) Whats the Save DC for this ability? A) Unless otherwise specified the Save DC is (10+ 1/2 HD + Charisma Modifier).
Q) What's with this scaling by HD? A) Some have questioned the reasoning and balance behind scaling abilities by HD. The reason for this is simple: multiclassing. We believe that all abilities gained by all monsters, even level 1 monsters, should be viable and balanced at all levels. However, most monster classes simply don't go to level 20, so we're required to make their abilities stay relevant by scaling by HD as opposed to level.
The rest of the rules are split into three parts. Use Guidelines will teach you all the general rules for using these Monster Classes in a game, with specifics on changing size or multiclassing several monster classes (unintended by the project, but people are liable to try it anyways). Critique Guidelines will explain how you can help the project by commenting on other people's monsters. Meanwhile, at the bottom is the Homebrew Guidelines for those who want to make monster classes.
Use Guidelines
You take these Monster Classes just like you would any other class, such as wizard or rogue. Each level of the class develops your abilities as that particular monster. Normally you should take the first level of a Monster Class at level 1, but there are exceptions, such as transformations. Likewise, one might simply wish to take a base class at first level: under these occasions one is superficially the monster that they plan to take, but does not actually gain any of their abilities. After the first level, you may multiclass freely; for example one might take 1 level of troll, then 3 of barbarian, then a second level of troll, then another level of barbarian.
Upon taking the first level of a base monster class, you lose all other racial traits: what this means is that while you may select a race in character creation, you lose that race when you take your first level in a monster class. You do not gain any traits or bonuses from being a race, as the first level of a Monster Class replaces both class and race. That said, the monster classes are typically a step more powerful than a standard class to make up for the lack of racial bonuses. This does not apply, however, to creatures listed under prestige monster classes.
Growth Table
Spoiler
Base Size
New Size
AC & Attack Bonuses*
Space*
Reach (Tall/Long)*
Ave. Size Incr.
Ave. Weight Incr.
Grapple Mod.
Hide Mod.
Fine
Diminutive
-4 (size)
+½
+0/+0
+6
+1/2 lb.
+4 (size)
-4 (size)
Diminutive
Tiny
-2 (size)
+1½
+0/+0
+9
+5 lbs.
+4 (size)
-4 (size)
Tiny
Small
-1 (size)
+2½
+5/+5
+18
+36 lbs.
+4 (size)
-4 (size)
Small
Medium
-1 (size)
+0
+0/+0
+3
+240 lbs.
+4 (size)
-4 (size)
Medium
Large
-1 (size)
+5
+5/+0
+6
+2000 lbs.
+4 (size)
-4 (size)
Large
Huge
-1 (size)
+5
+5/+5
+12
+8 tons
+4 (size)
-4 (size)
Huge
Gargantuan
-2 (size)
+5
+5/+5
+24
+80 tons
+4 (size)
-4 (size)
Gargantuan
Colossal
-4 (size)
+10
+10/+5
+48
+200 tons
+4 (size)
-4 (size)
Natural weapons damage increases one die size for each size increase.
Thanks to Zeta Kai for the Table.
Multiple Natural Armor Bonuses
Spoiler
If a creature gains natural armor bonuses from multiple sources treat them according to the following chart.
Base Natural Armor
Extra Natural Armor
Results
1/2 Con Mod
1/2 Con Mod
Full Con Mod as Natural armor Bonus
Anything higher than 1/2 Con Mod
1/2 Con Mod
+1 Nat. AC
Full Con Mod
Full Con Mod
1.5 Con Mod
Anything Higher than Full Con Mod
Full Con Mod
+2 Nat. AC
1.5 Con Mod
Anything higher than Full Con Mod
+3 Nat. AC
Creatures that gain Natural Armor from more than one monster class that specify different Ability Scores as the base for their Natural Armor Class use whichever Ability Score is higher to derive both Natural Armor Classes, and uses the chart above. Thanks to ChumpLump for the Table.
Multiclassing Monsters
Spoiler
Normally one is not allowed to take 2 base monster classes.
In some cases, your DM may disregard the above rule and allow you to multiclass two base monster classes. This will likely represent some sort of hybrid character, which could be interesting. In this case, how you should play this is: For the monster class which you do not take at level one, remove the Body of X class feature, and use the Body of X for your first monster class. If you somehow take them at the same time using a variant rule like gestalt, keep the Body of X from the class with more levels. If they both have the same number of levels, you may choose which Body of X you keep.
Critique Guidelines
For any monster to be put up, it must be critiqued. By you! Here's how it works.
Monster approval is governed by a group of experienced or thoughtful homebrewers, known as the council. The council currently consists of Gorgondantess, Hyudra, and Kyuubi. For any monster to be put on the list, it needs only to be approved by any two council members. The council is not a closed entity, if you wish to be a part of the council, send one of us a PM.
Further, the council are not the only ones who may critique-- we strongly encourage you to help others round out their monster classes. Especially if you hope to one day be on the council, you will only be chosen for the council if you critique often and critique well. Even for those not wishing to be on the council, critiquing others' work can improve the quality of your own submissions and may lead to you getting more critiques & faster approval of your own work. Someone who posts a monster and then doesn't post for two weeks while they wait for responses is going to get a less enthusiastic response than someone who is active and participating in the thread.
If you intend to comment on monster classes in any way, you should read the rules below and follow them.
Critiquing Rules
Spoiler
1. Contribution
Try to critique other Monster Classes whenever possible. It can be very frustrating if no one will critique your class, and if you skip over someone's class, they may feel left out. Just remember that if you help someone out by critiquing their class, they will likely help you out by critiquing your class.
2. Respect
Respect is tantamount if you are working on this project. If you are disrespectful of a class or a homebrewer, your monsters will likely not be critiqued. And as monsters need to be critiqued to go onto the list, if you are disrespectful of a class or a homebrewer, your monsters will not go on the list.
Homebrew Guidelines
Making a Monster Class is difficult, so don't think you can whip something up in ten seconds and get it posted. It may be long and hard to perfect it, but we'll help you through it. Follow these guidelines and you'll quickly be on your way. Remember to start out with Hyudra's class template so that all classes are in a standard format.
So You Want to Make a Monster Class It is highly suggested you follow the steps below before beginning to work on a monster.
In fact, if you do not, Hyudra and I will be much less inclined to critique & add your monster to the list.
Spoiler
The first step is to speak with one of the council members. Simply PM Gorgondantess (me) or, better yet, pester me on some chat program (much quicker than PM, can be found in my profile, I'm on most of the time) so we can set up a chat. If I cannot be reached for a week+, go ahead and speak with one of the other councilmembers, though I've taken the brunt of interviewing on newcomers. What will follow is a short interview/briefing (though really in the end more of just a conversation) so we can discuss common errors, thread guidelines, and your first monster- I've found that input before the creation of a monster is just as important as input after it's all written out.
That done, just keep our conversation in mind, and the guidelines below:
Spellcheck, format check:
Read over your finished work for errors. Ideally, you want to run it through a spellchecker (either built into your browser or copy/pasted into a word document), but if you've got a good eye for errors, that can be omitted. Additionally, do follow the Guide to Writing Monster Classes, below.
Be prepared to revise: Monsters that are submitted have to go through a review process to ensure we're putting quality work out there. Yes, we are perfectionists. For this reason, the council members will go over monsters and suggest changes.
Make your own abilities, make active abilities: Nobody wants to play a monster that just full attacks all the time, even if it does have a bunch of stat bonuses and DR and the like. Make sure the player gets to make meaningful decisions during combat, rather than the same thing over and over again. If the base monster doesn't have enough abilities or active abilities, make your own. It does not and should not have the exact same abilities as the original monster.
Scale!
Scale by HD, not levels. What this means is that if a monster has a breath weapon, rather than tying its damage to level, tie it to HD: 1d6 damage per HD is the standard for a true dragon. Thus, one who takes 5 levels in a dragon and 15 levels in another class will still have a decent breath weapon at level 20. Duration, DCs, and range should also all scale by HD.
Massively revised version of previously posted version by same author.
Abandoned Monsters
Spoiler
The following table lists monsters deemed 'abandoned', either voluntarily ("I'm not going to finish this") or due to inactive posting/lack of responses to critiques. If you wish to reclaim a monster of yours that was abandoned, inform a mod. If you wish to adopt a monster abandoned by another, attempt contacting the original poster, then seek council permission. If deemed appropriate by the council, depending on the monster and how close it is to being done, you should then post in the main thread expressing your interest to adopt the monster and what your plans are for it (starting fresh, just finishing what's there, what kind of abilities you're thinking of & what sort of fixes you're pondering). If someone else wishes to adopt the monster too, you should work out an agreement or compromise, or seek the input of others as to who has the stronger ideas. Once that is done, you may pick up that monster and make any changes necessary to get it up to your & our standards.
Loses!
Anyways, I think we should make a standardized ability along the lines of the other outsiders (demons, devils, yugoloth, eladrin, etc.) for archons. Wanna do it?
Quote:
1st Round: The Justice Archon sees the degree of crimes the subject has committed, and the degree to which they have been punished. The degree of the crimes is based upon the subject's lawfulness, and the degree of punishment upon the subjects feelings about the repercussions. In either case, information is in general terms.
So a sociopath who murdered a bunch of babies and got barely any punishment, for whatever reason, but thought that the punishment was overboard (probably because he's insane) would be considered to have been punished thoroughly?
Quote:
As their viewpoint is that of an observer they might witness details or facts the target is unaware of, have forgotten, or convinced were different.
I could totally see a player doing something like lying all the time so they have dozens of free recordings of various events for the Justice Archon party member to read off of.
Justice Strike: I donno, boss. That's a little wonky. Probably abusable, too. At the least I'd cap it with a certain uses/day.
Rage-Like ability? You do realize that barbarians are nonlawful only?
Quote:
She knows the distance up to the nearest 50ft if her within 500ft.
Reword.
Quote:
While they remain within her threatened area, opponents cannot cast defensively or use abilities that require focus or concentration.
Way to pick on psions and diamond mind swordsages/warblades.
Quote:
If they fail this save, they suffer the full brunt of the effect, even if they would normally not be subject to it from natural qualities or abilities.
Can of worms right there. How about an undead doing constitution damage? Or, better yet, how about an enemy mage casting dominate monster? Or will to disbelief an image spell? Grease? A resilient sphere- does suddenly a resilient sphere slam down over the enemy mage?
Wings: Light armor doesn't reduce fly speed.
Teleport: I'm leery about this. It solves a lot of quests that normally wouldn't be solvable until 3 levels later. Need to stock up while in a dungeon? Send out the justice archon! Need to warn the kingdom about the invasion- but in a tight spot? Send out the justice archon!
All in all, what I'd do is limit it to just teleporting to the quarry until 9 HD.
Other than that, though, I'm a little worried about the lack of active abilities. What will you be doing other than full attacking, even with justice strike? Well, nothing. Just give it one or two nifty little things to add some variety to battles. It could also use a slight power boost, so there you go.
Other than that, though, looking good.
__________________
Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer
Spoiler
Classic Cthulhu by RTGoodman
Critical Failures by Strawberries & Captain Happy, respectively.
By the way, I did not make every change Gorgondantess requested but I did reply to them. This doesn't mean "Hahaha, I'm not gonna change anything", but rather I'm explaining my reasoning on the grounds that you may have assumed certain decisions were the result of not thinking things through rather than seeing the internal logic I was trying to work from. If you still think there's a problem, I would like to work out the necessary improvements; the lack of major changes to the Coure isn't a result of ignoring or not seeing the suggestions, but rather a result of wanting to discuss them further.
-I don't know if anyone has already given you hell for the chassis, if not I assume they will. I actually like it and think it's fine, but you can count on it not flying with anyone else.
-Draconic Legacy needs additional explanation. You start with a d12, so what happens when you upgrade? Just +1 per HD? If you think it's clear within the text, it may be, but the fact that I have to ask shows that it's not spelled out quite clearly enough.
-Draconic Inheritance: Neat, you get whirling frenzy and rage and... fizzle. I don't know what the fascination is with DR/magic, but it's almost always underwhelming unless granted in huge amounts (Which yours is a decent amount, but it's still DR/magic). Also, since you lifted the rage variants straight out of other rage variants, do they count as rage for meeting prerequisites? It would be nice if they did.
-People around here like saying "Ambush Predator" don't they?
-Heritage Benefits; Lucky and Cloudwalker stand head and shoulders above the others, but most of these are just fine. You could get away with changing nothing about them, but I only realized that after going through them all, so instead of deleting my comments I decided to spoiler them. Gonna go over them all one-by-one.
Spoiler
Ambush Predator: I like. Nice and simple. Sound Imitation: Seems OK, not my thing, but that doesn't mean it's bad, just that I'm a bad judge. Lasting Fear: Is it common practice to leave enemies alive just to mess with them again later? If you are using NPC contacts you want good relations with the ones you'll deal with more than once, intimidate is for the throwaway guys. I guess it's not really that bad, I just often forget how much nicer other people are to NPCs. I might prefer something that worked like Deft Strike from CAdv for greens, but that's just me. Or maybe water breathing + act normally in water. It's not that special but nice to have. Fire Adaptation: What are smoke effects? I'm not the best optimizer or the most experienced D&D player, but that has got to be more obscure than weapons made of byeshk, and an obscure immunity is of questionable worth. Ice Adaptation: Slightly less obscure than smoke effects. You might want to polish up the wording a bit, I can see how players and GMs would argue about just how much "immunity" this ability grants. Ancestral Knowledge: Ok, I don't like bards, but stomping them with 2x HD = Bard Level for Bardic Knowledge seems kinda harsh. Why not just give a strong bonus to all knowledge effects, similar to the invocation that does it only with a scaling bonus? Knowledge Devotion is cool, Bardic Knowledge is lame. By the way, I don't actually see anything wrong with this ability, I just wanted to hate on bards. Wild Empathy: The Druid laughs at the Bard because the half-dragon only used his full HD instead of 2x his HD to steal the Druid class feature. This is fine btw. Prankster: Nice and neat. Lucky: So everyone will be half-gold then? This is not overpowered by itself, but it is dramatically more useful than a lot of the other heritage abilities. Cloudwalker: Ok, so some will be half-gold and the others will be half-silver. Once again, not problematic by itself, it just makes a lot of the other look lame by comparison.
-Additional Breath weapons; Ok, these are really cool , I got excited reading these. However, there are some issues.
First off, did someone say you should spell out the save in every single entry? I feel like you should show the save calculation once or twice and say "this is always how the half-dragon's breath DC is calculated." Believe it or not repeatedly spelling things out has detrimental effects on comprehension. The more times you do it the more likely you are to slip up or vary, and if you spell it out every time it creates the illusion that it is different every time, shattering the reader's confidence in their own understanding. I guess it's a minor nitpick, but at some point you have to assume the reader is competent or else they won't be.
Onto the actual breath weapons:
Spoiler
Vitriolic Spray: This is actually really awesome, and a solid competitor with equivalent-level spells, but the range is unclear. Whether it's the range of the breath weapon as usual or not, it needs to be stated because you're changing the shape of the attack. Is it the same range as an orb spell? Explain it.
Cone of dehydration: At first I was worried because the damage was such crap, but then I realized it's a save-or-suck that's really hard to shake and I liked it a lot
Cone of fear: Looks fine.
Cone of Smoke: So THAT's what the smoke immunity was for! Unfortunately I have no idea whether this is any good or not, because you neglected to include a mechanical explanation of why it's bad to spend the round "choking and coughing." It better not be that lousy d6 of nonlethal, because that just sucks.
Freezing Exhalation: Why am I lately tempted to name things goofy stuff like "Cool Minty Breath?" This one is good at low levels, but it will be left behind when flight comes into play.
Cone of Sleep: Ok, most of the breath weapons are save-or-sucks, but this one is a save-or-DIE with the same duration as the save-or-sucks. May I suggest lowering the duration to 1 round per 5 HD or something similar? Because as it is you have plenty of time to murder everyone. If you lower the duration you can still get at least one kill, and even though they all wake up sooner they are all prone now and flying targets fell to the ground. So to summarize: Putting people to sleep for even 1 round is awesome, there is no reason this guy should have the same duration as the poor green dragon's "shaky" breath.
Cone of Repulsion: I read "Repulsion" and I got hopeful for a cool TK/Force Push-like effect. Making everyone run away isn't bad though. Although I will point out the tragic flaw in many people's estimation of what is effective in melee vs. what is cool in melee. Knocking people back looks really cool, but now you have to spend time closing the distance again! It's not actually bad at all, just wanted to go on a tangent because thorough critiques take awhile.
Cone of Slow: Nasty. Good Nasty.
Cone of Weakness: Also good nasty.
Cone of Paralysis: See my thoughts on Cone of Sleep.
-Ability Increases: Ok, I get that you like being charismatic, I mentioned this last time I looked at the class. Even though you don't use charisma for anything, I suppose there's nothing wrong with +1 charisma.
I'm not sure if this argument has ceased or not, but I wanted to weigh in re: half-dragons and say that I feel they should be a base class, not a prestige class. You're born a half-dragon or you're not, yes?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilingsworth
Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
Replaced the pics in my monsters with identical ones uploaded to my Imageshack account, assuming they weren't already on a similar image hosting service.
Edit: On half-dragons. I believe that you shouldn't be able to take Half-Dragon after taking levels in non-racial classes. So a Basilisk 3 could take a Half-Dragon level, but a Basilisk 3/Fighter 1 could not. Of course, the class probably shouldn't be taken at all unless the character has been visually described as half-dragon before, or in special circumstances.
I'm not sure if this argument has ceased or not, but I wanted to weigh in re: half-dragons and say that I feel they should be a base class, not a prestige class. You're born a half-dragon or you're not, yes?
Every single template in this project is a prestige class.
__________________
Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer
Spoiler
Classic Cthulhu by RTGoodman
Critical Failures by Strawberries & Captain Happy, respectively.
Scizor by Mr. Saturn.
Last edited by Gorgondantess : 03-24-2011 at 12:56 AM.
Every single template in this project is a prestige class.
But must this rule be iron-clad? Wouldn't inherited templates make more sense as base classes anyway? I mean, one turns into an undead being, but they get base class status.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilingsworth
Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
The goal behind the Half-Dragon (I think I've said this 10 times by now) isn't to make a "dragon but lesser", as every other iteration is, but to make a half-dragon, half-something else, and synergize the two. And as it'll likely be a humanoid qualifying for it, what special qualities do humanoids have? Base classes. I can't build off of a base class if it's not there.
I'd like to relate it to, say, a monster that has claws but can't use them until a later level. Well, a Half-Dragon is a Half-Dragon but doesn't actually gain Half-Dragon abilities until 2nd level. Though I'm thinking of requiring either a dragon heritage feat or dragonblood subtype or something like that. Thoughts?
__________________
Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer
Spoiler
Classic Cthulhu by RTGoodman
Critical Failures by Strawberries & Captain Happy, respectively.
Scizor by Mr. Saturn.
Last edited by Gorgondantess : 03-24-2011 at 12:57 AM.
Honestly, I think it's gonna cause you a lotta headaches, as the half-dragon's original defining characteristic was its overwhelming physical presence, as opposed to actually being dragon-like. Powerful build and the like may be appropriate, for example.
As far as pre-reqs, I dunno. I don't think Skills should be involved, but heritage feats lands us right back at step "why are they all gishes?". Perhaps require Imp Natural Attack and incorporate a feature that lets you swap it to your claws? No, too complicated...
HRM....
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilingsworth
Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
Oh. By the way.
Try wrapping your head around a Half-Dragon minotaur. Just think about it for a few seconds. From a mechanical standpoint, I mean.
Or you can just replace "minotaur" with the monster class of your choice. I just chose minotaur because it was applicable.
__________________
Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer
Spoiler
Classic Cthulhu by RTGoodman
Critical Failures by Strawberries & Captain Happy, respectively.
Scizor by Mr. Saturn.
Last edited by Gorgondantess : 03-24-2011 at 01:04 AM.
Your half-dragon or core!half-dragon? 'Cause I've already moved well past that into half-dragon animate trees. Which have used their swordsage levels on my PCs.
"Can breed with any living, corporeal creature" means a LOT.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilingsworth
Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
Your half-dragon or core!half-dragon? 'Cause I've already moved well past that into half-dragon animate trees. Which have used their swordsage levels on my PCs.
"Can breed with any living, corporeal creature" means a LOT.
Any Half-Dragon monster class. And again, from a mechanical standpoint...
The point I'm getting at, is that you're saying that Half-Dragon should always be taken at level 1. Well, say you have an (insert monster class here) Half-Dragon. In this case, what do you have at level 1? Probably (insert monster class here). NOT Half-Dragon.
__________________
Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer
Spoiler
Classic Cthulhu by RTGoodman
Critical Failures by Strawberries & Captain Happy, respectively.
Any Half-Dragon monster class. And again, from a mechanical standpoint...
The point I'm getting at, is that you're saying that Half-Dragon should always be taken at level 1. Well, say you have an (insert monster class here) Half-Dragon. In this case, what do you have at level 1? Probably (insert monster class here). NOT Half-Dragon.
You make an excellent point, but one can also (theoretically) take [Monster Class X] after level one - such as if my Paladin gets turned by a Wight, or if my Polymorph gets hit by a Wild Magic Surge and I'm stuck as a Minotaur, so I feel that giving Half-Dragon the option to be taken at level one is appropriate. Plus it solves your pre-req headaches, as anything you can put in is either going to make no sense or be needlessly restrictive.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilingsworth
Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
You make an excellent point, but one can also (theoretically) take [Monster Class X] after level one - such as if my Paladin gets turned by a Wight, or if my Polymorph gets hit by a Wild Magic Surge and I'm stuck as a Minotaur, so I feel that giving Half-Dragon the option to be taken at level one is appropriate. Plus it solves your pre-req headaches, as anything you can put in is either going to make no sense or be needlessly restrictive.
Suddenly I'm struck by inspiration:
Allow Half-Dragon to be taken at level 1... but don't allow the 2nd level to be taken until a later time. All of the class dependent abilities are on the 2nd level, for the most part.
__________________
Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer
Spoiler
Classic Cthulhu by RTGoodman
Critical Failures by Strawberries & Captain Happy, respectively.
Suddenly I'm struck by inspiration:
Allow Half-Dragon to be taken at level 1... but don't allow the 2nd level to be taken until a later time. All of the class dependent abilities are on the 2nd level, for the most part.
Hrm, kinda like a racial sub level, but for any class? That might work. First level gets you the nat armor/wings/fun stuff, and the second level develops your relationship with dragons re: your class identity?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilingsworth
Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
Hrm, kinda like a racial sub level, but for any class? That might work. First level gets you the nat armor/wings/fun stuff, and the second level develops your relationship with dragons re: your class identity?
No, like the Ardent Dilettante. You need to meet some prerequisites to take the 2nd level of the class that you don't need to meet for the 1st level of the class. So, for example, you couldn't take your second level in Half-Dragon, but you could do Half-Dragon 1/Sorcerer 1/Half-Dragon 1.
__________________
Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer
Spoiler
Classic Cthulhu by RTGoodman
Critical Failures by Strawberries & Captain Happy, respectively.
No, like the Ardent Dilettante. You need to meet some prerequisites to take the 2nd level of the class that you don't need to meet for the 1st level of the class. So, for example, you couldn't take your second level in Half-Dragon, but you could do Half-Dragon 1/Sorcerer 1/Half-Dragon 1.
Eh, I'd have to see proof-of-concept to really get it (since I've never even heard of your example), but I'm all for a solution that can un-gish the concept and divorce it from lolcasters.
Because, frankly, all of the dragons in my games IRL? Xorvintaal dragons.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilingsworth
Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
Eh, I'd have to see proof-of-concept to really get it (since I've never even heard of your example), but I'm all for a solution that can un-gish the concept and divorce it from lolcasters.
Um. Have you seen my new Half-Dragon revision? It still has gishiness. It also has psionics, initiating, and mundane, and there's more to come (I'm thinking precision damage based classes- sneak attack, sudden strike, skirmish, etc.)
Anyways. Here's what I'm thinking.
Prerequisites for level 1: Any non-undead, non-construct with a true dragon as a parent.
Prerequisites for level 2:
Knowledge: X 4 ranks
1st level spontaneous spellcasting
OR
1st level manifesting
OR
Able to initiate 1st level maneuvers
OR
+1d6 sneak attack, sudden strike or skirmish
etc.
And then the 2nd level is different depending on what qualification they met.
__________________
Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer
Spoiler
Classic Cthulhu by RTGoodman
Critical Failures by Strawberries & Captain Happy, respectively.
Um. Have you seen my new Half-Dragon revision? It still has gishiness. It also has psionics, initiating, and mundane, and there's more to come (I'm thinking precision damage based classes- sneak attack, sudden strike, skirmish, etc.)
Anyways. Here's what I'm thinking.
Prerequisites for level 1: Any non-undead, non-construct with a true dragon as a parent.
Prerequisites for level 2:
Knowledge: X 4 ranks
1st level spontaneous spellcasting
OR
1st level manifesting
OR
Able to initiate 1st level maneuvers
OR
+1d6 sneak attack, sudden strike or skirmish
etc.
And then the 2nd level is different depending on what qualification they met.
Binding! Incarnum! Shadow Magic! HARROWED!
Jokes (HARROOOOOOOOWED) aside, sounds like a good concept. Roll wit' it!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilingsworth
Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
Jokes (HARROOOOOOOOWED) aside, sounds like a good concept. Roll wit' it!
Only problem is, I don't know Binding, Incarnum, or Shadow Magic. Might go for invoking? Anyways, I DID say I'd try to learn those... and from what I've seen thus far, I'm probably only going to do Incarnum.
__________________
Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer
Spoiler
Classic Cthulhu by RTGoodman
Critical Failures by Strawberries & Captain Happy, respectively.
Fatigue makes me wax philosophic and/or babble. If I've posted something strange and tangential, that is probably the cause. This entry would be an example.
Only problem is, I don't know Binding, Incarnum, or Shadow Magic. Might go for invoking? Anyways, I DID say I'd try to learn those... and from what I've seen thus far, I'm probably only going to do Incarnum.
I don't really see any thematic way to link pact magic into dragon ancestry. Shadow magic could make sense, given that there are shadow dragons, and I believe there are also incarnum dragons. Maybe the shadow dragon variation could combine mysteries with some sort of stealth abilities and serve double duty as a roguely option, since as counterintuitive as it seems stealth dragons do show up a fair amount in D&D.
I don't really see any thematic way to link pact magic into dragon ancestry. Shadow magic could make sense, given that there are shadow dragons, and I believe there are also incarnum dragons. Maybe the shadow dragon variation could combine mysteries with some sort of stealth abilities and serve double duty as a roguely option, since as counterintuitive as it seems stealth dragons do show up a fair amount in D&D.
Yeah, well, that's why I'll likely not be doing it. Also, I DID say I wasn't going to do binding... as far as I can see, pact magic just wouldn't work, and shadow magic... heh... hehah... HAHAHAHA. Seriously, who uses this stuff? It's less popular than truenaming.
__________________
Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer
Spoiler
Classic Cthulhu by RTGoodman
Critical Failures by Strawberries & Captain Happy, respectively.
Yeah, well, that's why I'll likely not be doing it. Also, I DID say I wasn't going to do binding... as far as I can see, pact magic just wouldn't work, and shadow magic... heh... hehah... HAHAHAHA. Seriously, who uses this stuff? It's less popular than truenaming.
I think there's reasonable design space for good shadow-magic classes, just that the ones there are tend to be kind of crappo. Still, it's certainly not something that shrieks out for its own half-dragon mod.
RSS Feeds: 
Community Based Monster Classes VII
, I got excited reading these. However, there are some issues. 
