[4e] The Modify Method- An Easy way to create new classes

[Lord Raziere]

I have no idea where this goes, but its technically homebrew, and even more technically a method of homebrew so I guess it belongs here.

basically, this method comes from me figuring out that due to DnD 4e's structure, and the amount of material already released, it is easily possible to invent whatever concept for a class you want and still have it be balanced, without even coming up with new powers or class features- you quite simply have to take things that already exist, modify them to fit the class concept a little, reflavor them and you get what you want, here is how:

1. Come up with a concept
2. Pick the two stats that best fit that concept
3. Pick two class features, health points, saves bonuses etc. that best fit the concept
4. Pick the three at wills and various encounter, daily and utility powers from all of them that best fit the concept.
5. Modify the powers to key off the two stats you picked and reflavor them to better fit the concept.
6. Add feats that best fit the concept.
7. Name your new class.
8. Your Done.

Best thing of all, this method is just the logical end conclusion of what the core books already tell us to do, which is take powers and such and reflavor and modify them. I'm just taking it to the next step and making entire classes out of modifications and reflavoring.

and guess what? I'm not creating anything new that needs to be balanced out, I'm just taking things that are already balanced and tweaking them in a minor way, I'm not even changing how powerful they are or what their overall effect is.

I encourage anyone who likes to design for 4e DnD to try this method out. I hope you try it out, and I hope that you give me feed back on how well you think it works.

[Shadow_Elf]

I just have to say right off the bat that not all class features are created equal. In fact, very few of them are. For example, it would be unfair to combine Sneak Attack, Commanding Presence and Spell Source together. And it wouldn't work to combine Weapon Talent with Monk Unarmed Strike and Oath of Enmity. Or to combine Swordmage Warding with Unarmoured Agility with Armor of Faith. The list goes on and one and on - the concept still requires balancing, comes out mechanically repetitive and doesn't really save much time at all, except maybe on the power selection front. Overall, I don't think this method is all that great, or even really a useful design principle at all.

[Lord Raziere]

Originally Posted by Shadow_Elf

I just have to say right off the bat that not all class features are created equal. In fact, very few of them are. For example, it would be unfair to combine Sneak Attack, Commanding Presence and Spell Source together. And it wouldn't work to combine Weapon Talent with Monk Unarmed Strike and Oath of Enmity. Or to combine Swordmage Warding with Unarmoured Agility with Armor of Faith. The list goes on and one and on - the concept still requires balancing, comes out mechanically repetitive and doesn't really save much time at all, except maybe on the power selection front. Overall, I don't think this method is all that great, or even really a useful design principle at all.

thats why I said two class features, not three. all your examples are three class features.

your argument therefore is invalid.

[Shadow_Elf]

Originally Posted by Lord Raziere

thats why I said two class features, not three. all your examples are three class features.

Then you still have issues; almost no class has only two class features, barring the Sorcerer, which has one giant mega-class feature. So, the final product would probably be underpowered instead - sure, I can combine great features like Oath of Enmity and Sneak Attack to get a great damage output, but then I miss out on all the utility features and such. I just think that, in the absence of a level playing field for class features, this system is inadvisable. Regardless of the cap, it still has balance issues that need heavy consideration on a case-by-case basis. I, personally, think it is just easier to make a new class and steal ideas and crunch for power selection only than to try and make a combination of existing features.

[Lord Raziere]

yea, anyone who thinks about this on a purely mechanical standpoint isn't really getting the point. If all you see is an opportunity to maximize your AC or attack whatever, then you missed the point entirely.

the point is to quickly make the concept that you want, something that would be fun to play, not a bunch of mechanical features that lead to some super-high damage thing. the point, is that if you want to make a necromancer you can take this method and get it down quick,

and if your suggesting that somebody would use this method to come up with a bunch of mechanical features first then come up with a concept to justify it, then they are doing the exact opposite of what this method is, because its not about the mechanics themselves, its about taking the concept you want and adapting the mechanics to that concept so that you can play it a 4E game.

[Goonthegoof]

Except 4E as a whole is very mechanically balanced. This isn't.

Idea: Punching people and being ridiculously good.
Stats: Strength and I don't care what.
Hit points and save bonuses: 15, +6 per level. Save bonuses +1 to all.
Class Features: Spell Source, Oath of Emnity
At wills: Twin Strike, Eldritch Strike, Burning Spray
Modification: Strength, punches
Class name: Punchmaster.

[Lord Raziere]

I cannot be blamed for for people using it wrong, or coming up with bad concepts. that is the fault of the person using it, not me.

if your concept is something that shallow, then you have completely missed the point, come up with a better concept than mere perfection.

[Goonthegoof]

Originally Posted by Lord Raziere

it is easily possible to invent whatever concept for a class you want and still have it be balanced

I'm not creating anything new that needs to be balanced out, I'm just taking things that are already balanced and tweaking them in a minor way, I'm not even changing how powerful they are or what their overall effect is.

I'm pointing out that this isn't balanced at all.

[Lord Raziere]

Originally Posted by Goonthegoof

I'm pointing out that this isn't balanced at all.

if one is a bad designer, yes it is.