[3.5 Base Class] The Ascetic (Or, one more monk fix to throw on the heap) [PEACH]

Jarian · 04-04-2011, 10:22 AM

The Ascetic

Darina, a Human Ascetic of the Striking Cobra Style, adopts the Twin Fang Defense.

Class Skills
The Ascetic's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Iaijutsu Focus (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Tumble (Dex)
Skills Points at Each Level: 6 + int

Alignment: Any except true neutral.
Hit Dice: d8

Level	BAB	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Special	Unarmed Strike Damage	Speed Bonus
1st	+1	+2	+2	+0	AC Bonus, Ascetic Style, Bonus Style Feat, Improved Unarmed Strike, nen	1d6	+0 ft.
2nd	+2	+3	+3	+0	Bonus Style Feat, Flurry of Blows	1d6	+0 ft.
3rd	+3	+3	+3	+1	Evasion, Wholeness of Body	1d6	+10 ft.
4th	+4	+4	+4	+1	Nen Strike +1, Stride the Tranquil Pond	1d8	+10 ft.
5th	+5	+4	+4	+1	Steadfast Determination, Style Ability (First)	1d8	+10 ft.
6th	+6/+1	+5	+5	+2	Bonus Style Feat, Hearing the Air, Inviolate Form	1d8	+20 ft.
7th	+7/+2	+5	+5	+2	Improved Evasion, Nen Strike (Aligned)	1d8	+20 ft.
8th	+8/+3	+6	+6	+2	Nen Strike +2, Walk the Twilight Path	1d10	+20 ft.
9th	+9/+4	+6	+6	+3	Style Stance	1d10	+30 ft.
10th	+10/+5	+7	+7	+3	Diamond Soul	1d10	+30 ft.
11th	+11/+6/+1	+7	+7	+3	Style Ability (Second)	1d10	+30 ft.
12th	+12/+7/+2	+8	+8	+4	Nen Strike +3, Resonating Strike	2d6	+40 ft.
13th	+13/+8/+3	+8	+8	+4	Improved Style Stance	2d6	+40 ft.
14th	+14/+9/+4	+9	+9	+4	Bonus Feat (Floating, Fighter)	2d6	+40 ft.
15th	+15/+10/+5	+9	+9	+5	Journey Into Shadow	2d6	+50 ft.
16th	+16/+11/+6/+1	+10	+10	+5	Nen Strike +4, Touching the Pattern	2d8	+50 ft.
17th	+17/+12/+7/+2	+10	+10	+5	Style Ability (Third)	2d8	+50 ft.
18th	+18/+13/+8/+3	+11	+11	+6	Shifting Style	2d8	+60 ft.
19th	+19/+14/+9/+4	+11	+11	+6	Mirrored Soul	2d8	+60 ft.
20th	+20/+15/+10/+5	+12	+12	+6	Empty Self, Nen Strike +5, Perfect Self	2d10	+60 ft.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Ascetics are proficient with all simple weapons and with the kama, nunchaku, sai, shuriken, and siangham. Ascetics are proficient with light armor and light shields.

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AC Bonus (Ex): While wearing light armor or no armor, as Ascetic can surround herself with swirls of nen, turning aside attacks that would otherwise strike true. The Ascetic gains a deflection bonus to AC equal to her Constitution modifier, to a maximum of her class level, which stacks with other forms of deflection bonuses. This deflection bonus cannot exceed the Ascetic's maximum Dexterity bonus to AC, and as such may be limited by armor or by carrying a medium or heavy load.

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Ascetic Style: At 1st level, an Ascetic chooses a style from the list below. This choice represents prior training in the martial arts, and in some cases latent supernatural ability. Each style grants a variety of bonuses and abilities, as noted in the individual style descriptions below. Once made, the choice of style is permanent.

Denying Hand Style: An Ascetic that follows this style learns to frustrate her foes with a series of trips, disarms, and other forms of denial.

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Overwhelming Assault Style: An Ascetic that follows this style learns to make devastating physical attacks, fighting with brutal efficiency.

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Rising Phoenix Style: An Ascetic that follows this style fights with the blurring speed and mystic fire of the legendary phoenix.

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Sleeping Tiger Style: An Ascetic that follows this style fights with flowing strikes that can be turned into swift, potent flurries in the blink of an eye.

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Striking Cobra Style: An Ascetic that follows this style learns to make quick, decisive attacks with surprising reach.

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Striking Cobra Style (Ex): As a swift action, the Ascetic may spend one point of nen to gain an additional 5 feet of reach with natural weapons and unarmed strikes until the start of her next turn.

Bonus Feat at 1st level: Improved Grapple
Bonus Feat at 2nd level: Combat Reflexes
Bonus Feat at 6th level: Spring Attack

Twin Fang Defense (Ex): While taking the total defense action, an Ascetic of 5th level or higher may make a pair of unarmed attacks at her highest attack bonus against a foe that strikes her in melee, provided the foe is within her unarmed strike's reach. The Ascetic may decline to take these attacks if she wishes, but may only make one such pair of attacks per round.

Rearing Cobra Stance (Ex): An Ascetic of 9th level or higher may adopt the Rearing Cobra Stance as a free action. While in this stance, the Ascetic may ready an action to make a single melee attack once per round as a swift action. Feats or effects that grant additional attacks, such as the Snap Kick feat, cannot be used with this readied action. An Ascetic that has the ability to assume other stances, such as by taking the Martial Stance feat, cannot use this ability in conjunction with those stances; using one cancels the other.

Cobra Venom Strike (Ex): A number of times per day equal to her Constitution modifier, but no more than once per round, an Ascetic of 11th level or higher may declare an unarmed strike to be a Cobra Venom Strike before making the attack roll. If the attack hits, the Ascetic's target must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ class level + Con modifier) or take 1d8 points of Constitution damage. Immunity to poison provides immunity to this attack, and effects that increase the potency of contact poisons can affect this ability.

Improved Rearing Cobra Stance (Ex): An Ascetic of 13th level or higher may apply the effects of her Cobra Venom Strike ability to the readied attack provided by her Rearing Cobra Stance if she wishes, ignoring the once per round restriction if she has already performed a Cobra Venom Strike in the round.

Embrace of the Serpent (Ex): An Ascetic of 17th level or higher that successfully grapples a foe deals automatic constriction damage equal to 2d10 + 1.5 * Str modifier and forces a save against her Cobra Venom Strike ability, but without consuming a daily use of that ability. No creature can be subjected to this effect more than once per round.

Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, an Ascetic gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. An Ascetic’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that an Ascetic may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for an Ascetic striking unarmed. An Ascetic may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually an Ascetic’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

An Ascetic’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

An Ascetic also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on the table above. The unarmed damage shown on the table is for medium-sized Ascetics.

When attacking with gauntlets or handheld weapons (such as a dagger or punch knife, but not a shortsword or longsword, for instance) the Ascetic uses her unarmed strike damage in place of the weapon's base damage if it would be higher.

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Nen (Su): As an Ascetic trains her body toward perfection, she also trains her force of spirit. With this quasi-mystical energy, the Ascetic can perform a variety of extraordinary or supernatural feats. An Ascetic has a pool of nen equal to half her class level rounded up plus her Constitution bonus, which are consumed as she uses certain class features. An Ascetic recovers her full allotment of nen after resting for at least eight hours. So long as the Ascetic has at least one point of nen remaining, she gains a +2 bonus to Will saves.

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Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and again at 2nd and 6th level, the Ascetic gains a bonus feat determined by her choice of Ascetic Style. The exact feats granted by each style are noted in their individual descriptions.

In addition, at 14th level, the Ascetic gains a bonus feat from the Fighter bonus feat list for which she meets the prerequisites. Unlike other feat choices, this selection is not permanent; by meditating for five minutes, the Ascetic can choose to lose the effect of this 'floating' feat, and instead choose a new feat for which she meets the prerequisites. There is no limit to the number of times this feat may be switched in this fashion, but the Ascetic must meet all the prerequisites for the selected feat without the aid of the feat granted by this ability.

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Flurry of Blows (Ex): When attacking with unarmed strikes or with Ascetic melee weapons, the Ascetic can make an additional attack at her highest attack bonus as part of a standard or full attack action. This extra granted attack stacks with haste and other, similar effects.

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Evasion (Ex): If an Ascetic of 3rd level or higher makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if an Ascetic is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless Ascetic does not gain the benefit of evasion.

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Wholeness of Body (Su): At 3rd level and higher, an Ascetic can heal her own wounds with nothing but a thought. As a swift action, the Ascetic can heal a number of hitpoints equal to her class level times her Constitution modifier per day. This healing may be divided between multiple uses as the Ascetic wishes. By expending a point of nen as a swift action, the Ascetic may refill a number of points to this pool of healing equal to her class level.

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Fast Movement (Ex): At 3rd level, the Ascetic gains an enhancement bonus to all forms of movement not wholly derived from magical effects, as seen on the table above. While wearing medium or heavier armor or carrying a medium or heavy load, the Ascetic loses this enhancement bonus to movement speeds.

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Nen Strike (Su): At 4th level, the Ascetic may channel some of her spiritual energy into the striking surfaces of her body, enhancing their potency. As a swift action, the Ascetic may spend one point of nen to grant her unarmed strikes a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls for a number of rounds equal to her Constitution modifier. If the Ascetic is wearing gauntlets that already possess an enhancement bonus, its effective enhancement bonus increases by 1 for the duration of this effect. This effective enhancement bonus does not count against the normal pre-epic restriction on enhancement bonuses, and is not calculated when determining whether or not a weapon bypasses DR/epic.

At 8th level and every 4 levels thereafter, the enhancement bonus granted by this ability increases by 1.

In addition, beginning at 7th level, the Ascetic may choose to grant her unarmed strikes the ability to strike as weapons aligned to any one alignment extreme that she possesses for the duration of Nen Strike.

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Stride the Tranquil Pond (Su): At 4th level, so long as the Ascetic has at least one point of nen remaining, she may traverse the surface of calm liquids as easily as if she were walking on solid earth. If the liquid has a negative effect on contact (such as walking across the surface of a vat of acid) the Ascetic takes half the normal contact effect while walking across it in this fashion. In addition, the Ascetic may expend a point of nen as a swift action to gain the ability to move across the surface of choppy or violent liquids as easily as if they were solid earth for a number of rounds equal to her Constitution modifier.

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Steadfast Determination: At 5th level, the Ascetic gains Steadfast Determination as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites.

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Hearing the Air (Su): Starting at 6th level, so long as the Ascetic has at least one point of nen remaining, she gains blindsense out to 30 feet. This blindsense is hearing-based, and as such does not function in an area of magical silence or while the Ascetic is deafened. By spending a point of nen, the Ascetic may instead gain blindsight out to this range for one round.

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Inviolate Form (Ex or Su): Starting at 6th level, the Ascetic gains immunity to poison and disease, including magical diseases such as mummy rot. In addition, the Ascetic may spend a point of nen as an immediate action to gain a bonus to saves against effects that would change her form (such as baleful polymorph) equal to half her class level until the start of her next turn. If this version of the ability is used, it is a supernatural effect.

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Improved Evasion (Ex): At 7th level, an Ascetic’s evasion ability improves. She still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless Ascetic does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

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Walk the Twilight Path (Su): Beginning at 8th level, the Ascetic can effortlessly slip between her current plane and the plane of shadow. By spending two points of nen as a swift action, the Ascetic may shift to the plane of shadow until the end of her turn, allowing her to bypass certain obstacles. The Ascetic may will herself to return to her previous plane as a free action before the end of her turn if she wishes.

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Diamond Soul (Ex): Beginning at 10th level, the Ascetic gains spell resistance equal to 10 + class level. Unlike ordinary spell resistance, the Ascetic may raise and lower her spell resistance as a free action that may be taken out of turn.

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Resonating Strike (Ex): Starting at 12th level, an Ascetic can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the Ascetic so desires. She can use this attack once per encounter, and she must announce her intent before making her attack roll. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be affected by a resonating strike. Otherwise, if the Ascetic strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the resonating strike attack succeeds. Thereafter the Ascetic can try to slay the victim at any later time, as long as the attempt is made within a number of days equal to her Ascetic level. To make such an attempt, the Ascetic merely wills the target to die (a free action), and unless the target makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ class level + Str modifier), it dies. If the saving throw is successful, the target is no longer in danger from that particular resonating strike attack, but it may still be affected by another one at a later time.

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Journey Into Shadow (Su): Starting at 15th level, the Ascetic may take extended jaunts into the Plane of Shadow. This ability functions as the Ascetic's Walk the Twilight Path ability, except that she may also take one creature within line of sight into the Plane of Shadow with her. If the creature is unwilling, a Will save, DC 10 + ½ class level + Con modifier negates the interplanar travel for that creature.

At the start of each of the Ascetic's turns, she may choose to forgo her swift action for the round and expend another point of nen to prolong her jaunt to the Plane of Shadow by one round. Regardless of whether she prolongs the journey or not, both she and the creature brought with her return to their previous plane when the duration of this effect ends.

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Touching the Pattern (Su): Starting at 16th level, whenever the Ascetic activates her Hearing the Air ability, she also gains the effect of a True Seeing spell for one round.

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Shifting Style (Ex): Starting at 18th level, at the start of each encounter, the Ascetic can choose to lose one feature of her chosen style to gain the same feature from another Ascetic Style. If the Ascetic chooses to lose the style's stance, she loses and gains both the normal and improved versions. At the end of the encounter, the Ascetic regains her usual style features. Bonus feats granted by an Ascetic Style are not valid choices for this ability.

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Mirrored Soul (Ex): Starting at 19th level, whenever the Ascetic resists a hostile spell with her spell resistance, the caster of the spell suffers the effects of the resisted spell as if they were the Ascetic, using their own resistances or immunities to the spell's effects. (For instance, if the Ascetic resisted the effects of a fireball spell, the caster would take damage from the spell as if they had been included in the spell's area of effect.)

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Empty Self (Su): At 20th level, the Ascetic can effortlessly shift between coexistent planes. By spending one point of nen as a swift action, the Ascetic can shift to either the Ethereal Plane or the Plane of Shadow. She may remain on this plane as long as she wishes, and may return to her previous plane as a free action.

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Perfect Self (Ex): At 20th level, the Ascetic transcends to a higher state of being. Her type changes to Outsider. She is considered native to any plane that is not strongly aligned to an alignment opposed to her own. In addition, she gains damage reduction 15 that is bypassed only by weapons aligned to alignments opposed to her own.

The Ascetic is considered a member of her original race whenever it would be beneficial to her, and, unlike ordinary outsiders, may be raised or resurrected normally.

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Jarian · 04-04-2011, 10:25 AM

I've been toying with the idea of a monk fix for a while now. There are plenty of excellent fixes already floating around this forum, but they all seem to have one thing in common: it's one straight progression, with no room for customization in the class features. That's something I try to avoid in my class design (please note that this is not a criticism of other monk fixers here, merely a comment on my reasoning for adding yet another fix to the heap).

And thus, the Ascetic. Not all of the styles have been implemented yet, but I think it's finished enough to get general feedback while I finish the remaining styles.

Jarian · 04-04-2011, 04:05 PM

Overwhelming Assault style added.

Amnestic · 04-04-2011, 04:33 PM

I think the capstone's a little boring. Outsider (Native) can be grabbed with a first level regional feat (PgtF) and DR isn't that shiny either. I know it's a monk fix and most WotC base classes lack capstones of awesome, but compared to...say...your Ascendant series it feels a tad lackluster is all.

Not a bad fix though, I like the different paths on offer.

Jarian · 04-04-2011, 04:35 PM

I know. I've been looking at it critically. The capstone is not as I would like it, and will be made more awesome after I finish the styles.

Jarian · 04-04-2011, 09:09 PM

Rising Phoenix Style added. Empty Self added as a second half of the capstone.

unosarta · 04-04-2011, 09:20 PM

Given that half or more of the class features of this class require Nen to use, they definitely don't get enough. Like, really. They have to deal with the Ninja complex, gaining a tiny pool to fuel a lot of their class features, especially the higher level ones.

Jarian · 04-04-2011, 09:29 PM

My estimated math at key levels.

1st: 4 nen (1 base, +3 modifier)
5th: 7 nen (3 base, +4 modifier)
10th: 9 nen (5 base, +4 modifier)
15th: 13 nen (8 base, +5 modifier)
20th: 17 nen (10 base, +7 modifier)

Obviously these numbers are subject to change based on stat arrays, but I assumed Con as a medium-high secondary ability, with dex trailing to third in importance.

Given these numbers and assuming 2-3 encounters per day, I'm more or less happy with the uses per day of nen-powered abilities. I'm open to suggestions as to why this is a bad progression, however.

Demidos · 04-04-2011, 09:35 PM

Nice!
Maybe make resonating palm based on con, to keep the pattern going

Edit: Obviously not a nessecary change

unosarta · 04-05-2011, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarian

My estimated math at key levels.

1st: 4 nen (1 base, +3 modifier)
5th: 7 nen (3 base, +4 modifier)
10th: 9 nen (5 base, +4 modifier)
15th: 13 nen (8 base, +5 modifier)
20th: 17 nen (10 base, +7 modifier)

Obviously these numbers are subject to change based on stat arrays, but I assumed Con as a medium-high secondary ability, with dex trailing to third in importance.

Given these numbers and assuming 2-3 encounters per day, I'm more or less happy with the uses per day of nen-powered abilities. I'm open to suggestions as to why this is a bad progression, however.

I would like to ask, how often do you expect these abilities to be used? Also, 2-3 encounters is kind of conservative, but that depends on the DM.

The main problem I have with that progression is that the character will be able to use his abilities more as he levels up, not because he is given greater options of abilities, but simply because he has more nen to work with. The cost of higher level abilities does not scale, and that means that the actual number of times per day that a character can use these abilities (these abilities being over half of his actual abilities), goes from really low, to really.

Jarian · 04-05-2011, 08:01 PM

Sleeping Tiger Style added.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by unosarta

I would like to ask, how often do you expect these abilities to be used?

1-2 points per encounter at lower levels, 2-3 points per encounter at mid levels, and 4 or more points per encounter at higher levels.

Quote:

The main problem I have with that progression is that the character will be able to use his abilities more as he levels up, not because he is given greater options of abilities, but simply because he has more nen to work with. The cost of higher level abilities does not scale, and that means that the actual number of times per day that a character can use these abilities (these abilities being over half of his actual abilities), goes from really low, to really.

First of all: Um, what? Of course an Ascetic of higher levels has more options to use her nen.

Second: How is it in any way bad that a higher level character has more resources available to them? That's like saying a 1st level Wizard should have as many spells per day as a 20th level one. I don't understand the logic of that at all. Explain please?

unosarta · 04-05-2011, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarian

Second: How is it in any way bad that a higher level character has more resources available to them? That's like saying a 1st level Wizard should have as many spells per day as a 20th level one. I don't understand the logic of that at all. Explain please?

It is less that they have more resources, and more that they scale so exponentially. I don't know; first of all, there doesn't appear to be enough nen to use all of her options at higher levels, and the nen, if your chart is exactly how the nen scales, feels kind of exponential.

In addition, the abilities are too short to be used very effectively, something that the Ninja had a huge problem with. Many of them cost 1 nen per round, which makes the less useful or effective ones very unlikely to be used.

Jarian · 04-05-2011, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unosarta

Many of them cost 1 nen per round, which makes the less useful or effective ones very unlikely to be used.

Such as?

Going down the list, we have...

Nen itself. Passive, so long as a point of nen remains.

Wholeness of Body: Doesn't actually consume nen to be used. Listing for completeness.

Nen Strike: Duration is long enough to last an entire average encounter, stacks with other enhancement bonuses. Huge boost for 1 nen.

Stride the Tranquil Pond: Passive so long as a point of nen remains, activated to avoid letting you survive being chucked off a ship in a stormy sea or somesuch. Uncommon in most campaigns.

Hearing the Air: Passive unless you really need to hit an invisible foe. Powerful in its own right, preventing ambushes.

Inviolate Form: Listed for completeness. Nen-use is expected to come up extremely rarely.

Walk the Twilight Path: Consider this the Ascetic's Abundant Step ability. How often would you want to allow your Ascetic to teleport around the map, or escape walls of force, or say no to a colossal monster grappling it? It's powerful, and the nen cost is higher than most to compensate.

Journey Into Shadow: For the same cost as the above ability, the Ascetic can now single out a foe that's being disruptive to your party and duke it out one on one with him. Has half the normal cost to extend the duration, but how long is it really going to take an Ascetic to down that spellcaster* by himself?

*assumes your DM is not playing NPC casters with god complexes that are astrally projected clones with armies of solars wishing for their wellbeing every second.

Touching the Pattern: No new cost. Gives you "I can see you - yes, even then" vision. Included for completeness.

Empty Self: One nen for permanent interplanar travel until you want it to end.

Now, given the above summations, which ones would you say are less useful than others, taking the passive nature of some into account?

I'm not taking a "you're wrong and here's why" stance here. I honestly want to know which of the nen-fueled abilities you consider too weak, and why.

unosarta · 04-05-2011, 10:10 PM

My biggest problem is with Walk the Twilight Path.

In all honesty, it isn't that power an ability. Yes, it is far more precise than Shadow Walk, but Shadow Walk is much, much longer, and costs less for the character to use (depending on their level, of course), and is available to casters a level later.

Compare: 2 nen per round. At the level accessed, with your assumed nen progession: 4 rounds per day.

1 hour per level. At the level Shadow Walk is accessed, with the assumed caster level, 9 hours per day. With one spell slot. No, you cannot use it in smaller chunks, as you can with Walk the Shadow Path, but you probably won't need to. You have other abilities or low level spells that can do very, very similar functions.

The reason that many teleport effects are nice is that they have a fairly far distance traveled. Yes, they do allow you to bypass obstacles, but the more powerful ones have a very far distance at the level they are accessed, and beyond.

Now, having looked over it, and you having explained it, there becomes a region of cloudiness in my understanding of this class. Yes, there are a lot of situational abilities that use nen. However, the really useful abilities that use nen, that do not affect your battle abilities, are... one.

Walk the Shadow Path is pretty crippling, considering you can't attack any creature for that round, and you can't really use your abilities. Yes, you can leave, but considering the nen cost, it doesn't seem worth it. However, the only other really useful ability is Nen Strike, and that is pretty powerful.

I don't know. It is fairly murky for me. The Ascetic has very few abilities to directly use (from what I can tell from your description) for nen, they gain a very large amount. Basically, at low levels, you are going to activate your Nen Strike ability, and go to town. You probably won't even use your nen after that unless it is really, really necessary.

It just... feels awkward.

Jarian · 04-05-2011, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unosarta

Walk the Shadow Path is pretty crippling, considering you can't attack any creature for that round, and you can't really use your abilities. Yes, you can leave, but considering the nen cost, it doesn't seem worth it.

The entire point of the ability is to function like a reusable Abundant Step, getting you out of a tight spot. It is also designed to not completely screw you over attack-wise, as you can end it after a 5-ft step (through a wall of force or similar) and still full attack, or at least hit with a flurry (after using the ability to cross, I don't know, an area of black tentacles or something). Given the design intent, does that change your view of it from shadow walk toward dimension door?

Quote:

However, the only other really useful ability is Nen Strike, and that is pretty powerful.

I don't know. It is fairly murky for me. The Ascetic has very few abilities to directly use (from what I can tell from your description) for nen, they gain a very large amount. Basically, at low levels, you are going to activate your Nen Strike ability, and go to town. You probably won't even use your nen after that unless it is really, really necessary.

It just... feels awkward.

I would expect that the chosen style ability would be activated fairly often as well. What is your take on those nen-powered features?

unosarta · 04-05-2011, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarian

The entire point of the ability is to function like a reusable Abundant Step, getting you out of a tight spot. It is also designed to not completely screw you over attack-wise, as you can end it after a 5-ft step (through a wall of force or similar) and still full attack, or at least hit with a flurry (after using the ability to cross, I don't know, an area of black tentacles or something). Given the design intent, does that change your view of it from shadow walk toward dimension door?

Dimension Door is a really, really bad spell for Melee combatants. I understand what you are saying, and I suppose I can see your point, but really. As soon as you cast Dimension Door, your turn is over. Completely.

This is a useful ability, for mobility purposes, but it still doesn't seem like it is that useful. You won't be encountering something that you need to get around every single encounter.

Also, clarification here; if you reenter the Material plane, do you provoke an attack of opportunity?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarian

I would expect that the chosen style ability would be activated fairly often as well. What is your take on those nen-powered features?

There is only one that the character will ever have. So, not much change here. There isn't really a variety of nen-powered options in class abilities, as far as my exhausted brain can tell. There are two you might use every encounter now, and one inordinately more than the other. In fact, the nen-based ability from Ascetic Style is probably one of the only non-situational ability the Ascetic gains access to.

On to the actual style abilities; the first level ability for Overwhelming Assault Style is pretty bad. Even with Power Attack and a high strength, that isn't that much higher of a bonus compared to the other abilities, all of which are much better at what they are doing. The stance ability of Overwhelming Assault Style is nice, and very good for power attackers, but the actual nen ability isn't all that much to write home about.

If you wanted to increase the power, you could maybe add a power attack multiplier? Something like "for every two points of penalty you take, you gain an additional +1 to the damage roll, on top of the bonus you would already gain," turning the ability into an okay power attack multiplier for a round, increasing Power Attack damage by 2.5 times the penalty. actually, you might want to bump it up even more, considering it only lasts one round.

Jarian · 04-06-2011, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unosarta

Dimension Door is a really, really bad spell for Melee combatants. I understand what you are saying, and I suppose I can see your point, but really. As soon as you cast Dimension Door, your turn is over. Completely.

I suppose I should have been clearer. I wasn't equating Walk the Twilight Path to dimension door, but rather shifting the expectations for the ability from interplanar travel (shadow walk) to mobility (Abundant Step - terrible though it may be).

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This is a useful ability, for mobility purposes, but it still doesn't seem like it is that useful. You won't be encountering something that you need to get around every single encounter.

Perhaps, but you don't run into something that can grapple you into submission every encounter either. That doesn't stop freedom of movement from being one of the best spells of its level.

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Also, clarification here; if you reenter the Material plane, do you provoke an attack of opportunity?

Free actions do not provoke attacks of opportunity, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity, and you aren't doing anything else that provokes at that time, so no.

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There is only one that the character will ever have. So, not much change here.

Shifting Style makes them all relevant.

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There isn't really a variety of nen-powered options in class abilities, as far as my exhausted brain can tell. There are two you might use every encounter now, and one inordinately more than the other. In fact, the nen-based ability from Ascetic Style is probably one of the only non-situational ability the Ascetic gains access to.

If it was necessary to use all of them all the time, we would be right back to not having enough nen at any time. There's a reason I included passive benefits or ones that don't require nen at all for most of the abilities.

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On to the actual style abilities; the first level ability for Overwhelming Assault Style is pretty bad. Even with Power Attack and a high strength, that isn't that much higher of a bonus compared to the other abilities, all of which are much better at what they are doing. The stance ability of Overwhelming Assault Style is nice, and very good for power attackers, but the actual nen ability isn't all that much to write home about.

If you wanted to increase the power, you could maybe add a power attack multiplier? Something like "for every two points of penalty you take, you gain an additional +1 to the damage roll, on top of the bonus you would already gain," turning the ability into an okay power attack multiplier for a round, increasing Power Attack damage by 2.5 times the penalty. actually, you might want to bump it up even more, considering it only lasts one round.

I worry about increasing the power at all, as there are many, many ways to boost melee damage into the stratosphere. If the Ascetic is worried about not doing enough damage by default, she can take one of those myriad options. I don't think it's right to default unarmed strikes to a quarter or more of a foe's health per hit.

Jarian · 04-06-2011, 12:08 PM

Update to Nen Strike. Choosing to align unarmed strikes no longer consumes extra nen or actions.

unosarta · 04-06-2011, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarian

Perhaps, but you don't run into something that can grapple you into submission every encounter either. That doesn't stop freedom of movement from being one of the best spells of its level.

Freedom of Movement is good because it is an absolute. It straight out makes grapple and difficult terrain useless; which is really, really bad design, compared to the other spells. Seriously.

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Originally Posted by Jarian

Free actions do not provoke attacks of opportunity, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity, and you aren't doing anything else that provokes at that time, so no.

Okay, just asking for confirmation.

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Originally Posted by Jarian

Shifting Style makes them all relevant.

Oh, no, I meant one at a time. Shifting Style allows you to switch between them, but you will only ever have one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarian

If it was necessary to use all of them all the time, we would be right back to not having enough nen at any time. There's a reason I included passive benefits or ones that don't require nen at all for most of the abilities.

I guess. It just seems like they will never run out, and it won' really be a problem. At low levels, they will run out a lot, and at higher levels, rarely at ever, especially if they boost their Constitution into the sky, which you didn't really account for and is really easy and pretty optimal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarian

I worry about increasing the power at all, as there are many, many ways to boost melee damage into the stratosphere. If the Ascetic is worried about not doing enough damage by default, she can take one of those myriad options. I don't think it's right to default unarmed strikes to a quarter or more of a foe's health per hit.

It wouldn't. Given that it only lasts one round, it is really just not as optimal a choice as compared to Sleeping Tiger or Rising Phoenix for damage, which seems to be what the style is actually about.

Jarian · 04-06-2011, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unosarta

Freedom of Movement is good because it is an absolute. It straight out makes grapple and difficult terrain useless; which is really, really bad design, compared to the other spells. Seriously.

Is it just me, or are we talking past each other here? I'm trying to draw comparisons to spells to show why Walk the Twilight Path is useful, while you seem more interested in commenting on the actual spells.

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I guess. It just seems like they will never run out, and it won' really be a problem. At low levels, they will run out a lot, and at higher levels, rarely at ever, especially if they boost their Constitution into the sky, which you didn't really account for and is really easy and pretty optimal.

My assumption was a +6 item and 2 levelup points into Con after starting with a 16, making it a useful but not overly developed secondary stat. Strength will have far and away the most resources allocated to it, which I expect to include a +6 item, 3 levelup points, and a +5 tome after starting with a 16 or and 18, along with various other modifiers. So, yes, I did account for it - I just didn't assume Con optimization over other stats.

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It wouldn't. Given that it only lasts one round, it is really just not as optimal a choice as compared to Sleeping Tiger or Rising Phoenix for damage, which seems to be what the style is actually about.

Sleeping Tiger applies to one attack, and Phoenix Fire is fire damage, which is resisted by about three-quarters of the monster manual. With even a single power attack modifier (Leap Attack, valorous gauntlets, etc... I don't care, pick one.) and coupled with Flurry of Blows, Overwhelming Assault Style with any boosts to its strength might as well be named Fine Red Mist Style.

Morph Bark · 04-06-2011, 05:28 PM

This thread is relevant to my interests.

I have to say I am not much one for fixes, but honestly due to the art you picked out, I'll have to give it a lookover later on. The tick mark on the thread will luckily remind me once I am home from school tomorrow.

Jarian · 04-06-2011, 05:30 PM

At long last, my unwillingness to settle for second rate art pays off.

Morph Bark · 04-06-2011, 05:34 PM

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Originally Posted by Jarian

At long last, my unwillingness to settle for second rate art pays off.

It's always a plus to have good art.

Admittably I've been known to whine about credit-giving to the artist, but I am just too tired now. And I think this one has a mark on there or something so you got an excuse.

unosarta · 04-06-2011, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarian

Is it just me, or are we talking past each other here? I'm trying to draw comparisons to spells to show why Walk the Twilight Path is useful, while you seem more interested in commenting on the actual spells.

Why not? I understand what you are trying to say, but the spell examples irk me. I got your point a while ago, though I still think the cost is a little too high at the level that it is received (using it at 8th level would be 1/4th of your nen pool, and at twentieth level, it uses just over 1/9th of the Ascetic's nen pool).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarian

My assumption was a +6 item and 2 levelup points into Con after starting with a 16, making it a useful but not overly developed secondary stat. Strength will have far and away the most resources allocated to it, which I expect to include a +6 item, 3 levelup points, and a +5 tome after starting with a 16 or and 18, along with various other modifiers. So, yes, I did account for it - I just didn't assume Con optimization over other stats.

Considering how much money there is possible at twentieth level, you could easily buy another tome for Constitution. And, depending on the Style you choose, Constitution would likely be more useful for you than Strength; Strength does add damage, yes, but Constitution gives you more nen, which allows you to use Nen Strike more often, which probably makes up for it, and some of the Style abilities can make up for the damage. In addition, Constitution gives you both Health, Fortitude saves, and Armor Class bonuses; in other words, it is really nice. Also, if ToB is allowed, Shadow Blade allows you to use your Dexterity to damage, allowing you to bump up your defenses by pumping Dexterity and Constitution, while at the same time increasing to-hit, AC, Reflex saves, etc, etc.

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Originally Posted by Jarian

Sleeping Tiger applies to one attack, and Phoenix Fire is fire damage, which is resisted by about three-quarters of the monster manual. With even a single power attack modifier (Leap Attack, valorous gauntlets, etc... I don't care, pick one.) and coupled with Flurry of Blows, Overwhelming Assault Style with any boosts to its strength might as well be named Fine Red Mist Style.

They still do a lot more damage than Overwhelming Assault. And, honestly, given that it isn't a permanent bonus, worth 1 nen, and only lasts a round, it isn't that bad of an idea. Considering just the gains from either; you don't actually gain that much from Overwhelming Assault's nen ability, honestly. Comparing the strength bonus, it won't honestly be that high, and if it is, it won't ever really be high enough to make it optimal. Power Attack either lowers your attack bonus or your armor class (with the Overwhelming Assault stance), so it also doesn't make it that much of a bonus. Compare that to 1d4 per four Ascetic levels Fire damage, or 1d6 per two Ascetic levels precision damage.

Jarian · 04-06-2011, 06:03 PM

Math, assuming 18 starting strength, no racial bonus, a +6 item, 3 levelup points, and a +5 tome. 32 strength, or a +11 strength modifier.

An Overwhelming Assault Ascetic can freely power attack without worrying about her to-hit. For the purpose of this thought process, the Ascetic therefore always power attacks for full. This may or may not be optimal depending on your group.

2-handed attacks get twice the normal bonus from Power Attack, or +40 damage each. An Overwhelming Assault Ascetic therefore gains 20 bonus damage on each attack made with her style ability as opposed to what other Ascetics get from Power Attack.

2-handed attacks also get 1.5x normal strength bonus to damage rolls, or, in this case, an additional 5 damage per hit. This brings our average damage bonus per attack over other Ascetics up to +25 for 1 nen.

Now, assuming a Sleeping Tiger Style Ascetic uses nen on each qualifying attack, he deals 10d6 bonus damage, or an average of +35 damage. However, this bonus damage requires a point of nen for each attack that hits, rapidly draining the Ascetics resources in exchange for greater burst damage. That is the point of the style.

Rising Phoenix Style adds 6d4 fire damage to all attacks, for an average of 15 bonus damage to each attack that hits. By far the weakest of the damage bonuses. Intentional, given the other abilities granted by the style.

Given the above math, would you care to revise your opinion of the styles at all?

unosarta · 04-06-2011, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarian

Given the above math, would you care to revise your opinion of the styles at all?

Let us think about that same character if they didn't have their unarmed strikes count as two handed weapons.

Strength 32.
The attack bonus remains the same. If they power attack for full, they deal 2d10+11+20, without any other outside bonuses.

Let us look at a Sleeping Tiger Style Ascetic.
Strength 32.
The attack bonus remains the same. If they use their nen ability, they deal:
2d10+11+10d6.

2d10+11+20 averages out to 42.

2d10+11+10d6 averages out to 57, with a lot more variance.

So, yes, I do have some new thoughts. Mostly; power attack is seriously ****ed up. Secondly; simply with normal stuff, and no double power attack, the Overwhelming Assault Ascetic gets more reliable damage than Sleeping Tiger, and Overwhelming Assault gets it forever, without costing them a nen point, or anything.

Of course, their defenses are also much lower, but they have a much higher attack capability. I don't see why this would make me support them, now I just feel that they are even more out of whack, although in the opposite way. Ugh, I should probably sit down and crunch out the numbers sometime, but I don't have the energy... sorry.

Jarian · 04-08-2011, 12:03 PM

Multiple minor updates across the OP, including several wording fixes to make intent clearer.

Morph Bark · 04-09-2011, 12:01 PM

Okay, first off: I love Stride the Tranquil Pond. At first I thought it came a bit early (and also thought it had too many class features looking at that table, but I got over that since they mesh together well enough and fit a theme), but then I remembered some spells and all, so yeah.

I do think Hearing the Air either comes too early or is too strong from the get-go. Making it 15 feet is more reasonable, with it becoming slightly better later on (20 ft at level 9, 30 at 12, or something like that perhaps).

I'm personally not sure about Inviolate Form. I can see arguments for and against it.

Walk the Twilight Path is coo'.

Diamond Soul. Eh, SR is always kinda meh to me, but that's just me. Mirrored Soul makes it pretty twisted though, which ups it favourably.

Resonating Strike is too powerful as-is, certainly at that level. It'd be better as a capstone.

Journey Into Shadow is pretty slick if you wanna go one-on-one against someone.

Haven't gone over the styles yet, but so far it all seems nice. It does seem like you stuffed a lot in the first 8 levels though.

Jarian · 04-09-2011, 01:32 PM

Regarding Resonating Strike: Save or Lose starts at 9th level, and only gets stronger from there. So yes, it's powerful, but too powerful for the level? A 12th level Sorcerer is hitting you with Fleshiver for a no-save stun and nauseate, or baleful polymorph, or dominate. Any one of those is basically "you lose", no attack roll required. A 12th level Cleric touches you and you die. At 13th level, the save or dies just start falling like rain.

*shrug*

Curious · 05-01-2011, 04:16 AM

I have little feedback to give, save to say that this is an awesome fix, and I will be using it in my next game. Great artwork too.