So my dwarven fighter has usually been a waraxe heavy shield kind of guy. recently however he has been recently becoming more and more traditional in his dwarven heritage (through various story points) and had aquired a dwarven Urgosh. the tricky question i brought up is that i have the dwarven weapon training feat which gives me proficiency with hammers and axes. but the secondary end of the urgosh is a spear. am i unproficient with half my weapon? this seems a grey area. opinions?
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So my dwarven fighter has usually been a waraxe heavy shield kind of guy. recently however he has been recently becoming more and more traditional in his dwarven heritage (through various story points) and had aquired a dwarven Urgosh. the tricky question i brought up is that i have the dwarven weapon training feat which gives me proficiency with hammers and axes. but the secondary end of the urgosh is a spear. am i unproficient with half my weapon? this seems a grey area. opinions?
You're proficient with the whole weapon. The fact that part of it is a spear is irrelevant. It's a double weapon, and it's an axe, so you're proficient with it.
You aren't proficent with the entire weapon as one half of the weapon is considered a superior spear and the feat specifically says you have proficiency with axes not spears. you still have the proficency bonus and feat bonus if you use the axe end but if you use the spear end you don't get neither.
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You aren't proficent with the entire weapon as one half of the weapon is considered a superior spear and the feat specifically says you have proficiency with axes not spears. you still have the proficency bonus and feat bonus if you use the axe end but if you use the spear end you don't get neither.
Dude, like everyone is proficient with spears. The Druid is proficient with the spear. The BARD is proficient with the spear. MY FIFTH COUSIN'S GRANDCHILD is proficient with the spear.
Unless you're a Tempest Fighter (which I assume you're not, as a Dwarf) then it truly doesn't matter at all. I'd assume you're using the axe end anyhow, and Dwarven Weapon Training definitely covers that. The only benefit you'd get using it as a double weapon would be if you took any of the Two-Weapon Fighting feats.
Dude, like everyone is proficient with spears. The Druid is proficient with the spear. The BARD is proficient with the spear. MY FIFTH COUSIN'S GRANDCHILD is proficient with the spear.
Yes regular spears are simple weapons but superior spears aren't. Example the Great Spear, Tratnyr, Gythka, and the Zadatl all superior spears and all requiring proficiency (that no one has natually) including the second half of the Urgrosh.
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On consideration, I think that you probably would be considered proficient with the Axe end, because that end has the Axe keyword. But as the double weapon rules seem to stand at the moment, you aren't proficient in the spear end, because it doesn't. You are specifically proficient in all Axes, after all so to get both ends you'd either need proficiency in all spears also, or specific proficiency in the Urgrosh.
Which slightly goes against the spirit of the edition, to my mind, and I'd certainly handwave it away in my own game, were it the case. As far as I can see though, that's how it works by RAW.
I don't think the type of spear the end counts as matters, because firstly it doesn't specify, and secondly, it's not a spear, it's an Urgrosh Secondary end. Only proficiency with all spears, or with the Urgrosh would be relevant. as the character has neither, no dice. I think.
[edit] Did the Urgrosh used to simply be listed as being part of both Axe and Spear groups? It's possible to my mind that it would have originally worked, but the ends are seperately listed now.
Last edited by Tiki Snakes : 04-07-2011 at 12:29 PM.
There is no such thing as half a proficiency either you are proficient with the weapon or not.
I think they mean when you use one end you gain the proficiency bonus and not with the other. Much like if you are wielding 2 weapons but are only proficient with one, you only get the bonus when you attack with the one you know how to use.
The other example is a bow: you may be proficient in using one, but using it as a club (improvised weapon) doesn't grant you your bonus (unless you are an arena fighter and have proficiency in improvised weapons).
MeePos Fire is right. Your Character is proficient with the Urgrosh. Period. The axe/spear part plays in for feats and power effects. As an example Weapon Focus (Axe) has no effect when you use the spear end.
MeePos Fire is right. Your Character is proficient with the Urgrosh. Period. The axe/spear part plays in for feats and power effects. As an example Weapon Focus (Axe) has no effect when you use the spear end.
I think this is true. I'd be surprised if WotC hasn't already addressed this question.
Ugrosh is one weapon with two ends. In 4e you are either proficient or not. There are no rules on having a half proficiency.
This is certainly closer to what I would consider the spirit of the rules, but given that the two ends of a double weapon are now seperate weapons, if you don't have urgrosh proficiency, It seems that by strict RAW, you very much can have, if not half proficiency, at least proficiency with half the weapon.
Ugrosh is one weapon with two ends. In 4e you are either proficient or not. There are no rules on having a half proficiency.
But when I use a weapon in a manner I am not trained in it counts as an improvised weapon (using a bow as a melee weapon) and I don't get the proficiency bonus.
Doesn't that same logic apply (Using an Urgosh as a spear when I only know how to use it as an axe)?
But when I use a weapon in a manner I am not trained in it counts as an improvised weapon (using a bow as a melee weapon) and I don't get the proficiency bonus.
Doesn't that same logic apply (Using an Urgosh as a spear when I only know how to use it as an axe)?
When you take proficiency in the weapon Urgosh you are proficient with both ends.
True but he didn't take "Weapon Proficency: Urgrosh" he took dwarven weapon training and that only gives proficency with axes and hammers, not spears.
Does the Urgosh fall under the Dwarven weapon training? Then he gets proficiency with the entire Urgosh, especially considering Urgosh is classified as an axe. It seems kind of silly to argue these semantics.
But when I use a weapon in a manner I am not trained in it counts as an improvised weapon (using a bow as a melee weapon) and I don't get the proficiency bonus.
Doesn't that same logic apply (Using an Urgosh as a spear when I only know how to use it as an axe)?
If you don't use a weapon you are trained in you just do not get the proficiency bonus.
You deal improvised weapon damage with that bow not because you are not proficient with that use of the weapon. Proficiency only deals with bonus on attack rolls and the defensive property. Your bow is not a melee weapon so it is treated like any other object like a ladder or other two handed object which is a completely separate rule.
There is nothing in the game that even suggests you can only be proficient with just half of a weapon.
Also on the WotC boards this question has been fielded but so far nobody thinks you can be prof with half a weapon. You can find it here and you can feel free to post there and try to change their minds.
The easiest answer is "let the Dwarf be proficient with the damn thing." It's not a great weapon and as long as there aren't stacking shenanigans (which, IIRC, WotC has fixed generally) I'd say just go with it.
The actual RAW answer is much more complicated and hardly clear.
I am for granting the proficiency to both ends, however my point of contention is based on the RAW.
Ex: (forgetting damage)
If I am proficient in the use of a longsword, I gain the prof bonus.*
However if I use the longsword as thrown weapon I don't get the bonus even if I am technically using a weapon I am proficient in.*
It is it's intended use AND the item i am proficient in, not just the actual weapon.
So if I have a pointy headed greataxe and prof axes, and use this axe as spear I don't get the bonus because that's not what I am proficient in doing with axes.
How does this differ from a double weapon. I am clearly proficient if I use it one way but not in another way.
It hasn't been mentioned yet, but the character builder gives full access to Urgosh simply by picking up the Dwarven Weapon Training feat.
There is no such thing as a half proficiency in the rules, and there is absolutely no reason to invent such a thing.
While I 100% agree with you it is good to note that the CB is not a rules source. It is good to use as supporting evidence (which is what you are doing) but it is not an actual rules source so we can only use that to support other evidence, not as a true rebuttal in itself.
The Urgrosh is a DWARVEN RACIAL WEAPON. He gets proficiency with it through the DWARVEN WEAPON TRAINING feat.
Why the hell would he not know how to use half of it?
Technically, an Urgosh is a Superior Double Melee weapon, that were first created by Dwarves. That is like saying since Dwarves created the first Warplate armors all dwarves should be proficient it in.
Again, my position is that since the Urgosh is in the "axe group" he should be proficient in all uses of that weapon. However, as my example stated above, by RAW i don't think this is the case.
In addition, the Double Weapon entry in AV1 p10 says: Wielding a double weapon is like wielding a weapon in each hand. In this case an axe (which you are proficient in) and a spear (which you are not proficient in).
I am for granting the proficiency to both ends, however my point of contention is based on the RAW.
Ex: (forgetting damage)
If I am proficient in the use of a longsword, I gain the prof bonus.*
However if I use the longsword as thrown weapon I don't get the bonus even if I am technically using a weapon I am proficient in.*
It is it's intended use AND the item i am proficient in, not just the actual weapon.
So if I have a pointy headed greataxe and prof axes, and use this axe as spear I don't get the bonus because that's not what I am proficient in doing with axes.
How does this differ from a double weapon. I am clearly proficient if I use it one way but not in another way.
You don't get proficiency and all that other jazz when you throw it because it is not a THROWN/RANGED weapon, it is a MELEE weapon. If you use a melee weapon for a melee weapon attack, regardless of how you use it, you get the proficiency bonus if you are proficient with the weapon.
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You don't get proficiency and all that other jazz when you throw it because it is not a THROWN/RANGED weapon, it is a MELEE weapon. If you use a melee weapon for a melee weapon attack, regardless of how you use it, you get the proficiency bonus if you are proficient with the weapon.
So if I have prof clubs but not longswords and I use my longsword as a melee club, I gain my prof bonus to it? I don't think so.
If I had a prof Staffs but not spears and I have a staff with a point, if I try to use my staff as a spear I wouldn't get my prof bonus because I don't know how to use it that way. Much like I wouldn't able to apply a fear related feat to a weapon that isn't a spear even if I used it as one.
The weapon used is only part of the proficiency, I also need to use it in a way I am trained to.
Frankly, a longsword can be used as a club. Its called using the flat of your blade.
How you swing the weapon is just fluff 90% of the time in 4E anyway. Very few powers specify other than melee or ranged. You use a melee weapon for a melee attack and RAW says yes.
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